Official Trade Thread - Part XXVII

[nate33]

Ersan Rebounding career 6.2
Young Rebounding career 5.5

That does not make you a better rebounder. His Rebounding does not make him the better fit and it's not a substantial difference. Having one stat difference =/ better fit.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... n-ilyasova
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... deus-young

You are either blatantly ignorant or willfully deceptive. Rebounds per game is obviously a terrible way of judging rebounding when players play a different number of minutes.

[deneem4]

Smallest PF? . Which Pfs does he struggle against? I would like to hear that. Yeah I'm sure he's a terrible rebounder . Not really he's a PF and can play C for small ball but the 76ers is 3-4 years too early for that since they are in rebuild mode.

Young is a pf only because philly needed him to be pf..jus like the needed Evan Turner to be a sf...young is essentially a sf like jeff green but can play the pf...He always played the pf because philly had igudola at the time...he's definitely quick enough to guard most sf and can still contritbute against them...
like I said he's pretty much like jeff green...jeff green is a better shooter but young is a better defender...jeff green played pf with okc and Boston because of durant and pierce...he's played sf last year once pierce left...If philly drafts a big, young will play sf...

it would be ideal if we can get ersan and young...that way with have shooting and defense with interchangeable players...

wall
beal
young
ersan
gortat

would be a pretty nice team with the right coaching...reminds me of the 2011 mavs a little bit
and ersan is also a good rebounder like love...When he played with monta and Jennings he had 20per and would average 17/12 per 36min...
His defense is acceptable as well...and nd wall is and nd far better passer than Jennings or ellis...those 2 would thrive with wall dishing to corners...we'll have a mix match offensively with almost every team and defensively well be acceptable

Young is better than Ersan he's faster, physically stronger can DEFEND and get to the rim with his quickness and...postup. Oh did I mention he has ball handling? He has the complete package.He has pf body with long range 3 and can run like a SF.. there isn't a lot of players who can do that. There isn't a PF who has the tools like him. Most of them can only have one trick/attribute. He has all three. Comparing Young to Booker is laughable clearly you don't watch philly ball . Young can shoot the 3 just like Illyasova and he's 25 but thanks for reminding me his NBA career is over .

Ersan is only good at shooting just like Kevin Love that's it nothing else.

17.9ppg 6.0rpg 0.5blk 16.64per T young
11.2ppg 6.2rpg 0.1blk 13.85 per Ersan

Comparing Young to Ersan is no comparison.

This is classic "eye test" BS.

First off, they both had bad years this year -- they played well below their career levels. And they were equally (in)effective. The previous year was better for both of them. Over the last 4 seasons, Ilyasova has been more effective than Young.

As to "Ersan is only good at shooting" in your eye test, maybe you blink a lot? Ilyasova is a much better rebounder than Young, for example.

Young would be a good fit for the Wizards stop trying to downplay him.

I'm not downplaying young...i actually want young but we need a pure shooter to compliment him best...thats y he played so well with hawes...
Why argue about which guy is better when honestly both can play either position and can look great next to wall...
ersan is a better shooter and rebounder and can run an effective pick and pop with wall
but thad defends better, can drive and handle the ball as well

[montestewart]

The thing about NBA stats is that there isn't a single stat for non-centers that shows how valuable the player is on defense. Sure, you can gather a bunch of stats for a cursory look, but there is too much on defense that can't be recorded in a box score (so far, at least). the eye test is still necessary.

Now, I can't sit here and say that I have watched a ton of sixer's games over the years, nor that can I tell you that I would truly know what an excellent team defender should be doing on any given play while watching a game.

I feel like a chump sometimes, or a fanboy, with how often I refer to Zack Lowe's work, and I know that, just like every analyst, he has his flaws. But this is a guy that watches every single NBA game with nuanced, detailed approach, and a guy who actually knows what he is watching in terms of Xs and O's. he always talks to many, many people around the league about what is going on.

He LOVES Thad Young's defense. Says that, from the PF position, his pick and roll defense is incredibly disrupting, he can switch onto smaller players, play in the passing lanes, etc. I should also point out that he played a lot of PF on Phlly's great defenses under Doug Collins. You probably need to pair him with a rim-protecting center, but don't we say that about every player that isn't already a rim protector? You need one of those guys regardless.

I'm a tad disappointed that he only shot 30% from three this year, but maybe that is because of the dreck he was playing with in Philly? I can't say for sure, but going into the season I had hope that being free of Doug Collins tyrannic philosophy would allow for him to turn into a capable three point shooter. Maybe playing Wall, Beal and Gortat could give him better looks and more corner threes?

I guess what I'm saying is that I always have been intrigued by him, still am intrigued by him, and would be somewhat excited to see what would happen if we acquire him.

I'm continually arguing against stats. And the reason why I do is because of the orthodoxy that some seem to place in them. Stats are an amazing, yet limited, tool. Defense is certainly not well-defined via stats (though it certainly is increasingly better). Also, stats clip a lot of humanity out in terms of momentum shifts. I find myself continually pointing out these are humans, not machines, playing a game. And they are playing said game with other humans reffing them.

If a young team is back on their heels, and a vet on their squad rattles off three treys in a row against a star opponent (igniting the crowd), the subsequent emotional shift felt by both teams is not easily quantified by looking at full game, or full season, stats. That shift is what I call leadership. I don't know what stat tells me that without Birdman changing the momentum of many a playoff game, that Miami doesn't win two championships. But, there is absolutely no stat you can show me, nor argument you could make, that would convince me otherwise.

I have no problem with stats when used as a tool. When used as gospel, I have a problem.

I have a problem with anything being used as gospel that is not related to the life of Jesus, but looking at Birdman's stats, it would be a good bet that he would be the kind of player that could produce such an effect as you describe. His ppg looks kind of thin, but he otherwise looks pretty good in per 36 stats and advanced stats. If somebody like Seraphin produced such an in game effect, you would probably have to see it to believe it.

[popper]

I would love to have either Irsan or Young but agree Irsan is a better fit. If we could somehow trade Nene and Webster for assets, resign Ariza and Gortat, and then acquire Irsan I would be ecstatic. I'm concerned that Ernie and Ted won't pull the trigger on available trades for fear of failure. Fear is not a good attribute when trying to build a championship team.

[verbal8]

The thing about NBA stats is that there isn't a single stat for non-centers that shows how valuable the player is on defense. Sure, you can gather a bunch of stats for a cursory look, but there is too much on defense that can't be recorded in a box score (so far, at least). the eye test is still necessary.

Now, I can't sit here and say that I have watched a ton of sixer's games over the years, nor that can I tell you that I would truly know what an excellent team defender should be doing on any given play while watching a game.

I feel like a chump sometimes, or a fanboy, with how often I refer to Zack Lowe's work, and I know that, just like every analyst, he has his flaws. But this is a guy that watches every single NBA game with nuanced, detailed approach, and a guy who actually knows what he is watching in terms of Xs and O's. he always talks to many, many people around the league about what is going on.

He LOVES Thad Young's defense. Says that, from the PF position, his pick and roll defense is incredibly disrupting, he can switch onto smaller players, play in the passing lanes, etc. I should also point out that he played a lot of PF on Phlly's great defenses under Doug Collins. You probably need to pair him with a rim-protecting center, but don't we say that about every player that isn't already a rim protector? You need one of those guys regardless.

I'm a tad disappointed that he only shot 30% from three this year, but maybe that is because of the dreck he was playing with in Philly? I can't say for sure, but going into the season I had hope that being free of Doug Collins tyrannic philosophy would allow for him to turn into a capable three point shooter. Maybe playing Wall, Beal and Gortat could give him better looks and more corner threes?

I guess what I'm saying is that I always have been intrigued by him, still am intrigued by him, and would be somewhat excited to see what would happen if we acquire him.

I'm continually arguing against stats. And the reason why I do is because of the orthodoxy that some seem to place in them. Stats are an amazing, yet limited, tool. Defense is certainly not well-defined via stats (though it certainly is increasingly better). Also, stats clip a lot of humanity out in terms of momentum shifts. I find myself continually pointing out these are humans, not machines, playing a game. And they are playing said game with other humans reffing them.

If a young team is back on their heels, and a vet on their squad rattles off three treys in a row against a star opponent (igniting the crowd), the subsequent emotional shift felt by both teams is not easily quantified by looking at full game, or full season, stats. That shift is what I call leadership. I don't know what stat tells me that without Birdman changing the momentum of many a playoff game, that Miami doesn't win two championships. But, there is absolutely no stat you can show me, nor argument you could make, that would convince me otherwise.

I have no problem with stats when used as a tool. When used as gospel, I have a problem.

I have a problem with anything being used as gospel that is not related to the life of Jesus, but looking at Birdman's stats, it would be a good bet that he would be the kind of player that could produce such an effect as you describe. His ppg looks kind of thin, but he otherwise looks pretty good in per 36 stats and advanced stats. If somebody like Seraphin produced such an in game effect, you would probably have to see it to believe it.

WS/48 loves Birdman in Miami, especially in the play-offs last year. His 6.4 ppg/3.8 rbg/1.1 bpg won't blow anyone away, but they were in 15 mpg and at a 80 FG% and a high FT rate.

[Hidden Eye]

Young is a pf only because philly needed him to be pf..jus like the needed Evan Turner to be a sf...young is essentially a sf like jeff green but can play the pf...He always played the pf because philly had igudola at the time...he's definitely quick enough to guard most sf and can still contritbute against them...
like I said he's pretty much like jeff green...jeff green is a better shooter but young is a better defender...jeff green played pf with okc and Boston because of durant and pierce...he's played sf last year once pierce left...If philly drafts a big, young will play sf...

it would be ideal if we can get ersan and young...that way with have shooting and defense with interchangeable players...

wall
beal
young
ersan
gortat

would be a pretty nice team with the right coaching...reminds me of the 2011 mavs a little bit
and ersan is also a good rebounder like love...When he played with monta and Jennings he had 20per and would average 17/12 per 36min...
His defense is acceptable as well...and nd wall is and nd far better passer than Jennings or ellis...those 2 would thrive with wall dishing to corners...we'll have a mix match offensively with almost every team and defensively well be acceptable

This is classic "eye test" BS.

First off, they both had bad years this year -- they played well below their career levels. And they were equally (in)effective. The previous year was better for both of them. Over the last 4 seasons, Ilyasova has been more effective than Young.

As to "Ersan is only good at shooting" in your eye test, maybe you blink a lot? Ilyasova is a much better rebounder than Young, for example.

Young would be a good fit for the Wizards stop trying to downplay him.

I'm not downplaying young...i actually want young but we need a pure shooter to compliment him best...thats y he played so well with hawes...
Why argue about which guy is better when honestly both can play either position and can look great next to wall...
ersan is a better shooter and rebounder and can run an effective pick and pop with wall
but thad defends better, can drive and handle the ball as well

Ersan 0.9 3p made 2.6 attempted volume 3 point shooter. When Ersan averages more points than Young and gets atleast 3.0 more rebounds we can talk about him being a better fit.

[montestewart]

Ersan 0.9 3p made 2.6 attempted volume 3 point shooter. When Ersan averages more points than Young and gets atleast 3.0 more rebounds we can talk about him being a better fit.

I think people are already talking about him being a better fit. Where were you? He averaged more points and 3 more rebounds per game and per-36 in 2012. Lucky for you we don't have a time machine. I like both players, but I really admire your unabashed admission of Young love (although it may violate board rules).

[Hidden Eye]

Ersan 0.9 3p made 2.6 attempted volume 3 point shooter. When Ersan averages more points than Young and gets atleast 3.0 more rebounds we can talk about him being a better fit.

I think people are already talking about him being a better fit. Where were you? He averaged more points and 3 more rebounds per game and per-36 in 2012. Lucky for you we don't have a time machine. I like both players, but I really admire your unabashed admission of Young love (although it may violate board rules).

PPG Ersan Career 10.6 Age 27

PPG Young Career 13.7 Age 25.

Ersan is not a better fit than Young like I said he has to average more points or atleast 3 more rebounds by a big difference to be a better fit until that happens Young is the better fit. The Stats don't give any advantages. I'm done with this "discussion" .

[TGW]

Ersan 0.9 3p made 2.6 attempted volume 3 point shooter. When Ersan averages more points than Young and gets atleast 3.0 more rebounds we can talk about him being a better fit.

I think people are already talking about him being a better fit. Where were you? He averaged more points and 3 more rebounds per game and per-36 in 2012. Lucky for you we don't have a time machine. I like both players, but I really admire your unabashed admission of Young love (although it may violate board rules).

PPG Ersan Career 10.6 Age 27

PPG Young Career 13.7 Age 25.

Ersan is not a better fit than Young like I said he has to average more points or atleast 3 more rebounds by a big difference to be a better fit until that happens Young is the better fit. The Stats don't give any advantages. I'm done with this "discussion" .

What kind of weird analysis is this? At least 3 more rebounds?

I really have no horse in this race, but career averages don't mean much. You have to take into account the amount of minutes they've played and their respective roles. After glancing at the stats, I'd say they are pretty damn identical. Young is slightly more efficient, while Ilyasova is the better rebounder. I'd probably sway twoards Illyasova because he shoots a better deep ball but really neither is superior to the other.

[payitforward]

I have a problem with anything being used as gospel that is not related to the life of Jesus...

Why? The word comes from old English -- gōdspel, from gōd 'good' + spel 'news, a story' -- and has been used many ways for many years. In Christianity it refers not to Jesus nor to his life but to a set of books about Jesus.

[montestewart]

I have a problem with anything being used as gospel that is not related to the life of Jesus...

Why? The word comes from old English -- gōdspel, from gōd 'good' + spel 'news, a story' -- and has been used many ways for many years. In Christianity it refers not to Jesus nor to his life but to a set of books about Jesus.

Guess I should have used green font.

PS: I like the subtle Godspell reference.

[barelyawake]

The thing about NBA stats is that there isn't a single stat for non-centers that shows how valuable the player is on defense. Sure, you can gather a bunch of stats for a cursory look, but there is too much on defense that can't be recorded in a box score (so far, at least). the eye test is still necessary.

Now, I can't sit here and say that I have watched a ton of sixer's games over the years, nor that can I tell you that I would truly know what an excellent team defender should be doing on any given play while watching a game.

I feel like a chump sometimes, or a fanboy, with how often I refer to Zack Lowe's work, and I know that, just like every analyst, he has his flaws. But this is a guy that watches every single NBA game with nuanced, detailed approach, and a guy who actually knows what he is watching in terms of Xs and O's. he always talks to many, many people around the league about what is going on.

He LOVES Thad Young's defense. Says that, from the PF position, his pick and roll defense is incredibly disrupting, he can switch onto smaller players, play in the passing lanes, etc. I should also point out that he played a lot of PF on Phlly's great defenses under Doug Collins. You probably need to pair him with a rim-protecting center, but don't we say that about every player that isn't already a rim protector? You need one of those guys regardless.

I'm a tad disappointed that he only shot 30% from three this year, but maybe that is because of the dreck he was playing with in Philly? I can't say for sure, but going into the season I had hope that being free of Doug Collins tyrannic philosophy would allow for him to turn into a capable three point shooter. Maybe playing Wall, Beal and Gortat could give him better looks and more corner threes?

I guess what I'm saying is that I always have been intrigued by him, still am intrigued by him, and would be somewhat excited to see what would happen if we acquire him.

I'm continually arguing against stats. And the reason why I do is because of the orthodoxy that some seem to place in them. Stats are an amazing, yet limited, tool. Defense is certainly not well-defined via stats (though it certainly is increasingly better). Also, stats clip a lot of humanity out in terms of momentum shifts. I find myself continually pointing out these are humans, not machines, playing a game. And they are playing said game with other humans reffing them.

If a young team is back on their heels, and a vet on their squad rattles off three treys in a row against a star opponent (igniting the crowd), the subsequent emotional shift felt by both teams is not easily quantified by looking at full game, or full season, stats. That shift is what I call leadership. I don't know what stat tells me that without Birdman changing the momentum of many a playoff game, that Miami doesn't win two championships. But, there is absolutely no stat you can show me, nor argument you could make, that would convince me otherwise.

I have no problem with stats when used as a tool. When used as gospel, I have a problem.

I have a problem with anything being used as gospel that is not related to the life of Jesus, but looking at Birdman's stats, it would be a good bet that he would be the kind of player that could produce such an effect as you describe. His ppg looks kind of thin, but he otherwise looks pretty good in per 36 stats and advanced stats. If somebody like Seraphin produced such an in game effect, you would probably have to see it to believe it.

Huh. Good to know. But,

A) I don't think those stats necessarily show the emotional momentum swing of which I was speaking.
B) You have to know what you are looking for, and avoid the flat per game stats, to find stats that match my theory. So, you still need the eye test to generate the theory. The stats alone would not make it evident.
C) The reason why I love using Birdman is I very much wanted him here pre-Miami, and was told that stats say his career is over and he sucked to begin with. So, looking at stats you certainly wouldn't predict he would be an essential part of a championship run. However, if instead of stats, you look specifically for evidence of mental toughness in players (and assumed that championships are won by players who are mentally tough enough to block out the pressure, noise and emotion of the playoffs), then you could certainly predict that Birdman could play that pivotal role (and that's why I wanted him).

[montestewart]

I'm not very scientific about it, but like almost all here, I watch a lot of games, including almost all Wizards games. What I like most about the eye test is you can see effort (futile or not) that isn't always captured by stats. I guess I could imagine someone with stats similar to Andersen with less in game effect and fewer pivotal moments, but looking at his career stats, BS, RBs, FG%, etc, combined with his size, I would probably guess (without ever seeing a game) a player in the Rodman vein (heart, hustle, effort, physical and mental toughness) and the ability to deflate an opponent with game changing plays. This is not at all an advocacy against game watching. Before there were stats, there was basketball, the best part of it all.

[hands11]

opps .. wrong thread

[payitforward]

George Hill 16 mins 5 fouls

Lance Stevens 43 minutes and exhorted.

Add Paul George in foul trouble all game.

No way you can be MIA in MIA like that.

I'm not able to watch the game, unfortunately -- but I want to make sure I understand your post:

are you saying that if the guys who play for the Indiana Pacers play badly, that means it's less likely they'll win the game than if they play well?

Wow... I'd never thought of that! Is this something you've been saying all along?

[Illuminaire]

I think he's saying that when the Pacer's perimeter players are in foul trouble all game long, it exposes their thin bench and gives Miami a huge advantage.

[hands11]

I think he's saying that when the Pacer's perimeter players are in foul trouble all game long, it exposes their thin bench and gives Miami a huge advantage.

And if you saw the game, its was like watching the Wiz vs IND except in this case, IND was the Wizards.

They called two fouls easy on Paul George for nothing. Put that along with one legit foul on his and that was 3, he was sent to the bench.

George Hill was called for equally nothing events. G Hill doesn't mouth off to the refs, but the looks on his face were priceless. The guy who averages 2.3 fouls in 36.5 min throughout the playoff so some magically reason just couldn't stop fouling

That said, Miami really cranked up the D. But if IND got close to MIA, foul. It made things a little one sided.

Remind you of anything you saw recently ?

Then Ray Allen just went off in the 4th draining 3s. That was fun to watch. I was always a Ray Allen fan.

These are two really good defensive teams. And mad props to Coles. That young man plays big. Great defender. We should look to pick him up when his contract is over.

[barelyawake]

Drivel... My drivel, not yours, Hands. I agree with your drivel (this time).

[mhd]

My latest:

Wiz trade Porter+Webster for Ryan Anderson
Pelicans trade: Holliday+Anderson+Rivers+2016 1st for Kyrie+Webster+Jack
Cavs trade: Kyrie+Jack for Holliday+Porter+Rivers+2016 NO 1st

Cavs take Embiid 1st

NEW LINEUPS:
Cavs:
PG: Holliday/Rivers
SG: Waiters/Delladova
SF: Porter/Miles
PF: Bennett/Thompson
C: Embiid/Varajeo

NO:
PG: Kyrie/Jack
SG: Evans/Morrow
SF: Webster/Aminu
PF: Davis/Smith
C: Whithey/Ajinca

Wiz:
PG: Wall/Miller
SG: Beal/Temple
SF: Ariza/Rice
PF: Nene/Anderson/Gooden
C: Gortat/Nene/Gooden

[dangermouse]

Our bench looks terrible after that trade. Temple and Rice as the reserve wing? I'm a Temple fan but that is weak.