Simmons: Reinsdorf Runs Bulls Like Small Market Team

[AirP.]

Yes... I think Phil would be interested in moving Melo if he were getting Deng and other assets in return.

This probably wouldn't be possible since Deng would be a sign and trade and NYC is over the apron.

Then you look at acquiring Love with sign and trade Deng. The sign and trade can be a nice asset since it opens up teams who don't have cap space to outright sign players.

[Betta Bulleavit]

Shockingly, Simmons is incorrect.

If someone wants to argue they should spend more, super.

There is no factual evidence that they are run like a small market team.

Small market teams don't pay the luxury tax typically. But hey it sounds cute to say.

Considering Milwaukee and Indiana have both paid more tax dollars than Chicago, historically... you'd say he's incorrect? Ok, if that helps you feel better about it all.

Overall, his generalized statement is incorrect. First off, the luxury tax hasn't been around forever. For a good portion of the time that it has, the Bulls have been nowhere near being a contender. And during the 3 year stretch that they have, the team has paid the tax once. Secondly, Milwaukee regretted doing it so much that they haven't done it since.

I've never seen a guy be vilified for being financially genius as much as Reinsdorf has. At some point, people will come to realize that the reason that the rich are rich is often times due to the fact that they had the intellect to get themselves that way. It's not JR's fault that he is one of the few that understands the difference between getting rich and becoming wealthy.

[organix85]

Shockingly, Simmons is incorrect.

If someone wants to argue they should spend more, super.

There is no factual evidence that they are run like a small market team.

Small market teams don't pay the luxury tax typically. But hey it sounds cute to say.

Considering Milwaukee and Indiana have both paid more tax dollars than Chicago, historically... you'd say he's incorrect? Ok, if that helps you feel better about it all.

Overall, his generalized statement is incorrect. First off, the luxury tax hasn't been around forever. For a good portion of the time that it has, the Bulls have been nowhere near being a contender. And during the 3 year stretch that they have, the team has paid the tax once. Secondly, Milwaukee regretted doing it so much that they haven't done it since.

I've never seen a guy be vilified for being financially genius as much as Reinsdorf has. At some point, people will come to realize that the reason that the rich are rich is often times due to the fact that they had the intellect to get themselves that way. It's not JR's fault that he is one of the few that understands the difference between getting rich and becoming wealthy.

By your same argument, I can say "the [Bucks] have been nowhere near being a contender"... or in other words, the two teams operate the same way.

[Betta Bulleavit]

People acting is if simmons is basing his claims off the Deng trade. I belive before this year the Bulls were one of 4 teams to never pay the tax. They also consistently let free agents walk and typically fail to optimize player value.

Simmons is right. We are run poorly both from an ownership standpoint and GM standpoint. There is a reason the Bulls had the worst 6-7 year stretch in NBA history post Jordan and why the Bulls have been irrelevant for over 15 years sans 1 ECF appearance.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

What big time free agents have walked whose departure impacted the long-term success of the team so much? Curry? Crawford? Gordon? Asik? Robinson? Marco? C'mon. That's non sense. If the Bulls let somebody walk, it was because they weren't good enough to be kept. Noah, Deng (the first time), Taj, Rose, Tyson (initially). Nobody wants to talk about that though. Because it doesn't fit the cheap narrative that certain people want to continuously push.

Yeah, they had a horrible stretch after the dynasty. But lets not act like Krause didn't start that mess. It took Pax a couple of years to clean up the mess that was created years before he got there by the previous GM. Lets get the facts straight. Over the past 10-12 years, this team has been about as well managed as any team in the league bar none. So it hasn't amounted to a title. It is what it is.

[Betta Bulleavit]

Considering Milwaukee and Indiana have both paid more tax dollars than Chicago, historically... you'd say he's incorrect? Ok, if that helps you feel better about it all.

Overall, his generalized statement is incorrect. First off, the luxury tax hasn't been around forever. For a good portion of the time that it has, the Bulls have been nowhere near being a contender. And during the 3 year stretch that they have, the team has paid the tax once. Secondly, Milwaukee regretted doing it so much that they haven't done it since.

I've never seen a guy be vilified for being financially genius as much as Reinsdorf has. At some point, people will come to realize that the reason that the rich are rich is often times due to the fact that they had the intellect to get themselves that way. It's not JR's fault that he is one of the few that understands the difference between getting rich and becoming wealthy.

By your same argument, I can say "the [Bucks] have been nowhere near being a contender"... or in other words, the two teams operate the same way.

What I'm saying is that maybe the Bucks should have thought better of it hence the reason that they haven't done it since. But to your point, the Bucks are way different. We are talking about a team that traded Bogut (their number 1 pick) for Monta Ellis only to turn around and let Ellis walk for nothing. And in the same off season, traded Brandon Jennings to the Pistons for what's his face. Not because they thought that Jennings was an inferior player, but because the other guy...Knight (I got it) has an extra year on his rookie deal. That is small market management. That's not the Bulls and you know it.

[organix85]

Overall, his generalized statement is incorrect. First off, the luxury tax hasn't been around forever. For a good portion of the time that it has, the Bulls have been nowhere near being a contender. And during the 3 year stretch that they have, the team has paid the tax once. Secondly, Milwaukee regretted doing it so much that they haven't done it since.

I've never seen a guy be vilified for being financially genius as much as Reinsdorf has. At some point, people will come to realize that the reason that the rich are rich is often times due to the fact that they had the intellect to get themselves that way. It's not JR's fault that he is one of the few that understands the difference between getting rich and becoming wealthy.

By your same argument, I can say "the [Bucks] have been nowhere near being a contender"... or in other words, the two teams operate the same way.

What I'm saying is that maybe the Bucks should have thought better of it hence the reason that they haven't done it since. But to your point, the Bucks are way different. We are talking about a team that traded Bogut (their number 1 pick) for Monta Ellis only to turn around and let Ellis walk for nothing. And in the same off season, traded Brandon Jennings to the Pistons for what's his face. Not because they thought that Jennings was an inferior player, but because the other guy...Knight (I got it) has an extra year on his rookie deal. That is small market management. That's not the Bulls and you know it.

Honestly, all those guys kind of suck and overpaying any of them is not a great idea to begin with... Do you think getting rid of any of those guys was a bad move? I actually hate all 3 you mentioned and wouldn't want any on this team. And let's just call it what it was... it was an obvious tank job... They went all out this year for that #1 pick and it worked to position them and obviously just missed a bit. Anyway, the point is that Milwaukee is a small market. They need to make those kinds of moves to survive... try to land the top pick. They can't attract FAs. And at the end of the day, they aren't going to be contenders with a single player you mentioned there... not even close. They are rebooting and I don't blame them. It's their only real way to get a star. At the end of the day, they are not pocketing close to 50 million a year. They are making what they feel are wise decisions to put together a team worthy of spending on.

But the real point here is... Do you think they make even remotely close to the same profits as JR? Which of the two teams do you think is risking more profit? The answer is easy... and that is Simmons' point. We have operating habits similar to the Pacers and Bucks. The Pacers are actually one of the least profitable teams in the NBA just trying to hang with the Bulls in spending. Do you think JR would operate at a loss for that Pacer team? I think Simmons was quite spot on to be honest and borderline downplaying what the Pacers are doing. When I see JR average more than 7.7 million in losses over 5 years to try to win a championship, then I'll say Simmons was wrong.

No one here is really doing a good job of convincing me that what Simmons said was incorrect. The title is misleading in the sense that it's not what he said. He said we operate like the Pacers and Bucks. Maybe the Bucks are a bit on the lower end of the spectrum, but I have a hard time believing we are bigger financial risk takers than Indy. And that's the key here... to prove Simmons incorrect, you have to prove we operate MORE financially lose than those teams.

[Betta Bulleavit]

What I'm saying is that maybe the Bucks should have thought better of it hence the reason that they haven't done it since. But to your point, the Bucks are way different. We are talking about a team that traded Bogut (their number 1 pick) for Monta Ellis only to turn around and let Ellis walk for nothing. And in the same off season, traded Brandon Jennings to the Pistons for what's his face. Not because they thought that Jennings was an inferior player, but because the other guy...Knight (I got it) has an extra year on his rookie deal. That is small market management. That's not the Bulls and you know it.

Honestly, all those guys kind of suck and overpaying any of them is not a great idea to begin with... Do you think getting rid of any of those guys was a bad move? I actually hate all 3 you mentioned and wouldn't want any on this team. And let's just call it what it was... it was an obvious tank job... They went all out this year for that #1 pick and it worked to position them and obviously just missed a bit. Anyway, the point is that Milwaukee is a small market. They need to make those kinds of moves to survive... try to land the top pick. They can't attract FAs. And at the end of the day, they aren't going to be contenders with a single player you mentioned there... not even close. They are rebooting and I don't blame them. It's their only real way to get a star. At the end of the day, they are not pocketing close to 50 million a year. They are making what they feel are wise decisions to put together a team worthy of spending on.

But the real point here is... Do you think they make even remotely close to the same profits as JR? Which of the two teams do you think is risking more profit? The answer is easy... and that is Simmons' point. We have operating habits similar to the Pacers and Bucks. The Pacers are actually one of the least profitable teams in the NBA just trying to hang with the Bulls in spending. Do you think JR would operate at a loss for that Pacer team? I think Simmons was quite spot on to be honest and borderline downplaying what the Pacers are doing. When I see JR average more than 7.7 million in losses over 5 years to try to win a championship, then I'll say Simmons was wrong.

Fair enough. Perhaps operating like a small market team should be more associated with operating efficiently rather than being cheap. The way that Simmons is stating it, he is insinuating that the Bulls are "cheap" because they operate like a small market team. And what's more interesting is that of the 4 teams in the conference finals, 3 of them would be considered as small market teams. Who knows...maybe I just need to embrace the idea of being operated like a small market team as a great thing.

[Wingy]

Seems like minimum viable product / doing what should have been done many years ago to compete.

Luol Deng leaves Chicago and is impressed by Cleveland's facilities.

Cleveland.

[organix85]

Who knows...maybe I just need to embrace the idea of being operated like a small market team as a great thing.

This is really the bottom line. We as a fan base are quick to try to defend this stuff, but really... we could be the Knicks and we definitely don't want that. The Bulls are operated fine. Yea, JR is lining his pockets more than a lot of other teams and it is what it is. It's not easy to buy a championship in the NBA and a lot of people can lose sight of that at times. Do I think JR has made decisions to save money? Absolutely... Do I think any of those cost us a championship? Absolutely not...

Unfortunately, I think it's just too damn hard to be a long time contender in the NBA unless you just get lucky with some high level talent. It's kind of scary cause I worry where that puts us if Rose isn't who he was.

[r1terrell23]

Who knows...maybe I just need to embrace the idea of being operated like a small market team as a great thing.

This is really the bottom line. We as a fan base are quick to try to defend this stuff, but really... we could be the Knicks and we definitely don't want that. The Bulls are operated fine. Yea, JR is lining his pockets more than a lot of other teams and it is what it is. It's not easy to buy a championship in the NBA and a lot of people can lose sight of that at times. Do I think JR has made decisions to save money? Absolutely... Do I think any of those cost us a championship? Absolutely not...

Unfortunately, I think it's just too damn hard to be a long time contender in the NBA unless you just get lucky with some high level talent. It's kind of scary cause I worry where that puts us if Rose isn't who he was.

The irony here is that since Jordan left we've been just as bad as the Knicks. The have made it past the first round 3 times since Jordan left just like the Knicks. But at least the Knicks try to actually be good but just suck at it. Where as we could be a truly good team but appear to not give too much of a ****. Carmelo and Amare with Chauncey was a fail but again they tried. Our big FA's were Boozer and Wallace. They lucked into Rose and because of it got Thibs and had a great 2010 season. That is really our only positive history since Jordan left.

[Betta Bulleavit]

This is really the bottom line. We as a fan base are quick to try to defend this stuff, but really... we could be the Knicks and we definitely don't want that. The Bulls are operated fine. Yea, JR is lining his pockets more than a lot of other teams and it is what it is. It's not easy to buy a championship in the NBA and a lot of people can lose sight of that at times. Do I think JR has made decisions to save money? Absolutely... Do I think any of those cost us a championship? Absolutely not...

Unfortunately, I think it's just too damn hard to be a long time contender in the NBA unless you just get lucky with some high level talent. It's kind of scary cause I worry where that puts us if Rose isn't who he was.

The irony here is that since Jordan left we've been just as bad as the Knicks. The have made it past the first round 3 times since Jordan left just like the Knicks. But at least the Knicks try to actually be good but just suck at it. Where as we could be a truly good team but appear to not give too much of a ****. Carmelo and Amare with Chauncey was a fail but again they tried. Our big FA's were Boozer and Wallace. They lucked into Rose and because of it got Thibs and had a great 2010 season. That is really our only positive history since Jordan left.

I'm sorry, but that's a horrible philosophy. To start, the notion that the Bulls haven't "tried" is the biggest bunch of hogwash I've read in a while. Were they not trying when they made the decision to go after Wallace who was the biggest FA on that market? Did they not try to land two of Lebron, Wade and Bosh before they ultimately ended up with Boozer? Were they not trying when they chose between two of Noah, Deng and Gordon and made the right decision by letting Gordon walk?

And then to add to it that it's better to suck but try. If I went to my boss and said "hey boss, I know I sucked at managing the company's money; but hey, at least I tried" how likely is it that I would be able to keep my job? In the business world, the only thing that is worse than failing miserably is wasting a crap ton of money while doing so. Not to mention this little thing called draft picks that the Knicks have given away like religion, which is a big part of why they are in the predicament that they are in now. I'm sorry man, but your philosophy is one that perpetual losers operate by.

[FecesOfDeath]

Chicago is the third largest market, but that third place is far, far behind NY and LA, and that gap has been widening for the past 15 years. Plus, the blue collar and farming culture in Chicago and the Midwest in general is much different from the cultures of those other two cities. Simply put, the Bulls would not have been the third most valuable team in the NBA if it weren't for the Reinsdorf ownership group's thriftiness.

The Lakers are buoyed by a ridiculous $3.6 billion TV deal with Time Warner that allow them to spend deep in the luxury tax, while the Knicks are also getting a lot of money from cable TV, though not as exorbitantly as the Lakers are. The Bulls have a decent cable deal with Comcast but are one of the very few teams who still broadcast some local games on free TV. I can also say from firsthand experience that Comcast doesn't even reach a lot of the areas that are part of the Chicago television market.

To claim that Chicago is in the same tier market-wise as New York and Los Angeles is simply wrong. Chicago is a lot closer to the other NBA cities than it is to the two juggernauts.

[MAQ]

Seems like minimum viable product / doing what should have been done many years ago to compete.

Luol Deng leaves Chicago and is impressed by Cleveland's facilities.

Cleveland.

Well, Cleveland did have a superstar that they needed to keep happy just 4 years ago.

[Wont PerDont]

In so far as trading Deng, that had nothing to do with a small market mentality. That was them knowing that if they gave him the deal that he wanted, it was game over for building any real contender. So they got under the tax by trading.

That there is what a competent GM does.

They got under the tax to save them future profits.... by getting rid of a good basketball player for NOTHING. I get they saved money, but with the amount of profits they're raking in... like 55+ million a year, they could afford to keep talent to the end of their contracts to do sign and trades.

Yes... I think Phil would be interested in moving Melo if he were getting Deng and other assets in return.

If that's your narrative, then so be it. But it would be wise for you to realize that there were many more ramifications than lost profit. The Bulls paid the tax last season in case you were not aware. Had they kept Deng, it would have happened again this season. All indications are that they were okay with that as long as Rose was healthy and they thought this team could compete. Otherwise, they could have traded Deng last off season. Rose did get hurt. And the team was struggling mightily at the time. There is no way in hell any competent GM risks going into the repeater tax for a team like that over a player that you already know is going to walk at the end of said season. That's just foolish.

With regards to your theory that a resigned Deng would have appealed to the Knicks in a swap for Melo. I got four words for you. IN WHAT FREAKIN WORLD?!?! Do you honestly think that Deng signed to an albatross long-term contract would have appealed to a team that is trying to rebuild? Seriously...think about what you're saying man. That would be perfect example of the very type of contract that they would want to avoid...not acquire.

This. Phil is hinting about how Melo is going to have to take a pay cut to remain a Knick, do you really think he is going to be on board with moving him to bring in a 13-14 million dollar Deng? REALLY?!?

[ryan44]

This is really the bottom line. We as a fan base are quick to try to defend this stuff, but really... we could be the Knicks and we definitely don't want that. The Bulls are operated fine. Yea, JR is lining his pockets more than a lot of other teams and it is what it is. It's not easy to buy a championship in the NBA and a lot of people can lose sight of that at times. Do I think JR has made decisions to save money? Absolutely... Do I think any of those cost us a championship? Absolutely not...

Unfortunately, I think it's just too damn hard to be a long time contender in the NBA unless you just get lucky with some high level talent. It's kind of scary cause I worry where that puts us if Rose isn't who he was.

The irony here is that since Jordan left we've been just as bad as the Knicks. The have made it past the first round 3 times since Jordan left just like the Knicks. But at least the Knicks try to actually be good but just suck at it. Where as we could be a truly good team but appear to not give too much of a ****. Carmelo and Amare with Chauncey was a fail but again they tried. Our big FA's were Boozer and Wallace. They lucked into Rose and because of it got Thibs and had a great 2010 season. That is really our only positive history since Jordan left.

I'm sorry, but that's a horrible philosophy. To start, the notion that the Bulls haven't "tried" is the biggest bunch of hogwash I've read in a while. Were they not trying when they made the decision to go after Wallace who was the biggest FA on that market? Did they not try to land two of Lebron, Wade and Bosh before they ultimately ended up with Boozer? Were they not trying when they chose between two of Noah, Deng and Gordon and made the right decision by letting Gordon walk?

And then to add to it that it's better to suck but try. If I went to my boss and said "hey boss, I know I sucked at managing the company's money; but hey, at least I tried" how likely is it that I would be able to keep my job? In the business world, the only thing that is worse than failing miserably is wasting a crap ton of money while doing so. Not to mention this little thing called draft picks that the Knicks have given away like religion, which is a big part of why they are in the predicament that they are in now. I'm sorry man, but your philosophy is one that perpetual losers operate by.

The problem here is that it isn't "our" money. It's JRs. Since it's not "our" money, some people don't care about it making any business/financial sense. They operate purely from a "me" angle, logistics of the real world be damned. JR should be happy to make a few million less in revenue since he'd still be profiting. That makes total sense, and should be expected.

[Michael Jackson]

Who knows...maybe I just need to embrace the idea of being operated like a small market team as a great thing.

This is really the bottom line. We as a fan base are quick to try to defend this stuff, but really... we could be the Knicks and we definitely don't want that. The Bulls are operated fine. Yea, JR is lining his pockets more than a lot of other teams and it is what it is. It's not easy to buy a championship in the NBA and a lot of people can lose sight of that at times. Do I think JR has made decisions to save money? Absolutely... Do I think any of those cost us a championship? Absolutely not...

Unfortunately, I think it's just too damn hard to be a long time contender in the NBA unless you just get lucky with some high level talent. It's kind of scary cause I worry where that puts us if Rose isn't who he was.

The irony here is that since Jordan left we've been just as bad as the Knicks. The have made it past the first round 3 times since Jordan left just like the Knicks. But at least the Knicks try to actually be good but just suck at it. Where as we could be a truly good team but appear to not give too much of a ****. Carmelo and Amare with Chauncey was a fail but again they tried. Our big FA's were Boozer and Wallace. They lucked into Rose and because of it got Thibs and had a great 2010 season. That is really our only positive history since Jordan left.

Bust the bulls balls on things that are factual. I'm all for it actually. Just this they don't try thing though. It holds zero water. If anything the Bulls are laughable because they have tried too hard. Like embarrassingly so. If you are a pissed off fan because of the way the dynasty was ended, that I can get but saying the bulls haven't tried is not factually. Succeeded? Nope. The bar is being set at the Knicks?

[chadrucf]

Gimme a break, Simmons. This narrative is old, beaten, and still false. Move on.

[transplant]

Seems like minimum viable product / doing what should have been done many years ago to compete.

Luol Deng leaves Chicago and is impressed by Cleveland's facilities.

Cleveland.

If there's a line for Cleveland envy, you can have my spot in it.

And the Berto Center is a fine facility. It's just 25 miles away from where it needs to be.

[AAU Teammate]

Simmons does try to stir the pot. But he uses twitter judiciously, so if he's going all out on this...then it does mean something to me.

That said, we're not at the point where Simmons is going all out on something. If i remember right, he had the sources and info on how quickly Boston/Doc were coming apart...and he had the views of a few sides of it

w/Chicago stuff maybe his sources are weaker, i guess

[Rusty Walrus]

So the Bulls go over the luxury tax one time and people in this thread are acting like that's the rule and not the exception?

Give me a break.

Call them cheap or call them thrifty if it makes you feel better, but Simmons is dead on. Every decision they have made since the luxury tax has started has been based on finances.

And besides, it's not like Simmons is the only one with this opinion. It's pretty much the national perception of the Bulls and Reinsdorf.