2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Colbinii]

I've already notified my couch it will be literally putting up with my ass on Monday Night.

Go easy on the bean dip.

[sp6r=underrated]

caught the last 15 minutes of the game so I'm admittedly in the dark on what happened beyond Mr. high variance having a monster game. OKC ran them out of the building but I'll rewatch it on league pass to figure out how it happened.

Nonetheless, I don't think you can completely disregard the 1st two games of the series on account of the Ibaka injury. He's worth a lot but he isn't worth anything like the turn around we've seen from the games in SA to OKC. The two teams have now played 8 times this year with OKC winning by an average of .9. Hopefully, we'll get one close game in this series

[mopper8]

caught the last 15 minutes of the game so I'm admittedly in the dark on what happened beyond Mr. high variance having a monster game. OKC ran them out of the building but I'll rewatch it on league pass to figure out how it happened.

Nonetheless, I don't think you can completely disregard the 1st two games of the series on account of the Ibaka injury. He's worth a lot but he isn't worth anything like the turn around we've seen from the games in SA to OKC. The two teams have now played 8 times this year with OKC winning by an average of .9. Hopefully, we'll get one close game in this series

I agree, I'm not convinced OKC wins game 5 or even the series. Certainly it seems plausible, even likely, but it's also not that hard to imagine SA getting it going in SA and taking game 5

[bondom34]

caught the last 15 minutes of the game so I'm admittedly in the dark on what happened beyond Mr. high variance having a monster game. OKC ran them out of the building but I'll rewatch it on league pass to figure out how it happened.

Nonetheless, I don't think you can completely disregard the 1st two games of the series on account of the Ibaka injury. He's worth a lot but he isn't worth anything like the turn around we've seen from the games in SA to OKC. The two teams have now played 8 times this year with OKC winning by an average of .9. Hopefully, we'll get one close game in this series

Personally, as a Thunder fan, I don't discount them at all. I'm certainly much more hopeful now than after game 2, but its best of 3 w/ the Spurs having HCA. To me what's been as big a difference is that the lineup has changed so drastically w/ the guards as well. Sefolosha's put out 2 straight DNP CDs, not even any garbage time. This is the first time OKC's put out a lineup where the opponent always has to play defense on both guards, and its messing up defense for SA like mad. Its why Westbrook's been able to get some openings, and is why OKC fans wanted Lamb playing all season over Butler.

[JordansBulls]

Weird how San Antonio struggles with OKC and Dallas all the time.

[sp6r=underrated]

caught the last 15 minutes of the game so I'm admittedly in the dark on what happened beyond Mr. high variance having a monster game. OKC ran them out of the building but I'll rewatch it on league pass to figure out how it happened.

Nonetheless, I don't think you can completely disregard the 1st two games of the series on account of the Ibaka injury. He's worth a lot but he isn't worth anything like the turn around we've seen from the games in SA to OKC. The two teams have now played 8 times this year with OKC winning by an average of .9. Hopefully, we'll get one close game in this series

Personally, as a Thunder fan, I don't discount them at all. I'm certainly much more hopeful now than after game 2, but its best of 3 w/ the Spurs having HCA. To me what's been as big a difference is that the lineup has changed so drastically w/ the guards as well. Sefolosha's put out 2 straight DNP CDs, not even any garbage time. This is the first time OKC's put out a lineup where the opponent always has to play defense on both guards, and its messing up defense for SA like mad. Its why Westbrook's been able to get some openings, and is why OKC fans wanted Lamb playing all season over Butler.

as said before, I missed almost the entire game save garbage time so I'm basing this off the box score.

Wasn't the difference on the offensive end mainly Westbrook going off himself rather than being enabled to go off due to the presence of better teammates? It doesn't look as if Jackson or Lamb did much. Did they impact SAS defensive schemes in a way that didn't show up in the box score?

[bondom34]

caught the last 15 minutes of the game so I'm admittedly in the dark on what happened beyond Mr. high variance having a monster game. OKC ran them out of the building but I'll rewatch it on league pass to figure out how it happened.

Nonetheless, I don't think you can completely disregard the 1st two games of the series on account of the Ibaka injury. He's worth a lot but he isn't worth anything like the turn around we've seen from the games in SA to OKC. The two teams have now played 8 times this year with OKC winning by an average of .9. Hopefully, we'll get one close game in this series

Personally, as a Thunder fan, I don't discount them at all. I'm certainly much more hopeful now than after game 2, but its best of 3 w/ the Spurs having HCA. To me what's been as big a difference is that the lineup has changed so drastically w/ the guards as well. Sefolosha's put out 2 straight DNP CDs, not even any garbage time. This is the first time OKC's put out a lineup where the opponent always has to play defense on both guards, and its messing up defense for SA like mad. Its why Westbrook's been able to get some openings, and is why OKC fans wanted Lamb playing all season over Butler.

as said before, I missed almost the entire game save garbage time so I'm basing this off the box score.

Wasn't the difference on the offensive end mainly Westbrook going off himself rather than being enabled to go off due to the presence of better teammates? It doesn't look as if Jackson or Lamb did much. Did they impact SAS defensive schemes in a way that didn't show up in the box score?

Its more that they change how SAS (or any team) has to scheme. Thabo's essentially useless on offense, and the Spurs could sag off him and it was down to 4 on 5 on offense (3 on 5 if Perkins was out there). Just the fact that they have to respect the presence of Lamb/RJ is enough to open things enough with Russ's athletecism. Also, a big credit to Adams, who's been great on both ends as well.

[Dr Positivity]

as said before, I missed almost the entire game save garbage time so I'm basing this off the box score.

Wasn't the difference on the offensive end mainly Westbrook going off himself rather than being enabled to go off due to the presence of better teammates? It doesn't look as if Jackson or Lamb did much. Did they impact SAS defensive schemes in a way that didn't show up in the box score?

Just remember OKC's home wins against the Spurs in 2012, it's a clone. OKC athleticism and physical tools advantages went insane and shook the Spurs out of their style and ball movement, which led to a lot of turnovers and OKC points the other way. OKC crowd is really loud. Durant and Westbrook get hot in the 2nd quarter and the game is already over by half.

[RSCD3_]

It's becoming harder and harder to ignore Westbrook and exclude him on my top 5, he's been OKC's best player arguably and is putting up near LeBron numbers of 27/7/7 while having good defense on the last 3 point guards who IMO are all top 10.

As of Now, I am thinking of knocking Howard off my 5th slot and giving the spot to westbrook

[Dr Positivity]

I think Spurs need to lean on the 3pt shot as much as they can. Right now either posting up or trying to drive on OKC is too big of a problem for physical reasons. Try to put make Ibaka and Perkins guard the 3pt line and see what happens with Scott Brooks adjusting

[sp6r=underrated]

as said before, I missed almost the entire game save garbage time so I'm basing this off the box score.

Wasn't the difference on the offensive end mainly Westbrook going off himself rather than being enabled to go off due to the presence of better teammates? It doesn't look as if Jackson or Lamb did much. Did they impact SAS defensive schemes in a way that didn't show up in the box score?

Just remember OKC's home wins against the Spurs in 2012, it's a clone. OKC athleticism and physical tools advantages went insane and shook the Spurs out of their style and ball movement, which led to a lot of turnovers and OKC points the other way. OKC crowd is really loud. etc.

Here is the thing about 2012: a backdoor sweep isn't a sweep.It is a cute term but it isn't an accurate description of a series. Games 1 ad 2 aren't irrelevant because SAS lost the next 4. It would be silly to include them in your analysis if SAS had won say games 3 and 4 at home but not include them in your analysis because they happened in g1 and g2.

OKC didn't make any major strategic change going into G3 that suddenly rendered everything before that irrelevant. Accordingly, if you're going to include 2012 in your analysis you have to include all of 2012 in your analysis.

If you look at the Thunder's record against SAS since 2012 they are 13-8 with an average MOV of 1.33. That is a real advantage but it is far from a KO.

[ronnymac2]

caught the last 15 minutes of the game so I'm admittedly in the dark on what happened beyond Mr. high variance having a monster game. OKC ran them out of the building but I'll rewatch it on league pass to figure out how it happened.

Nonetheless, I don't think you can completely disregard the 1st two games of the series on account of the Ibaka injury. He's worth a lot but he isn't worth anything like the turn around we've seen from the games in SA to OKC. The two teams have now played 8 times this year with OKC winning by an average of .9. Hopefully, we'll get one close game in this series

Do you understand how important he is for OKC now though? He's not an amazing player, but on a flawed team like OKC where his role, the energy he provides, and the minutes he takes up so Adams/Collison/Perkins/Durant can play their optimal minutes in their optimal roles is extremely important.

Going against Pop, you'll need to make adjustments on the fly and have some roster flexibility. OKC was forced to put KD at PF for large swathes of the games, which clearly wasn't going to work since he doesn't impede ball or player movement enough. The Spurs ate him alive there.

I'm not responding to say I told you so. I'm responding to share with you why I believe all the pieces matter. Shaq/MJ/LBJ win a combined 0 rings without the 8th best player on their respective title teams. You wanted a flawed OKC team to put up more of a fight in the WCF without their third best player, without their most valuable big man. The chances of that happening were slim.

Serge Ibaka isn't an amazing player, but he's amazingly significant to how OKC plays 5 on 5 basketball.


As for the series...obviously I had a healthy OKC team winning this series, but with Ibaka out, I thought the Spurs would take it in 5. With Serge back, it gets interesting. OKC having to give up the first 2 games is really bad, and I suppose I'd still favor SA because of that, especially since Jackson might be out now, but I wouldn't be surprised if OKC 2012's this overrated team again to make the Finals.

[sp6r=underrated]

It's becoming harder and harder to ignore Westbrook and exclude him on my top 5, he's been OKC's best player arguably and is putting up near LeBron numbers of 27/7/7 while having good defense on the last 3 point guards who IMO are all top 10.

As of Now, I am thinking of knocking Howard off my 5th slot and giving the spot to westbrook

Westbrook is a high variance player. You have to be careful when ranking him after a big game to remember all the absolute duds he turns in when he dribbles the ball endlessly around the court without giving Durant a shot.

He isn't close to a top 5 player once you factor in games played. He played less minutes this year than even Manu.

[ronnymac2]

BTW, phenomenal game by Westbrook. He really makes me want to succumb to a prisoner of the moment mentality and put him in my top 5.

[fallacy]

It's becoming harder and harder to ignore Westbrook and exclude him on my top 5, he's been OKC's best player arguably and is putting up near LeBron numbers of 27/7/7 while having good defense on the last 3 point guards who IMO are all top 10.

As of Now, I am thinking of knocking Howard off my 5th slot and giving the spot to westbrook

Westbrook is a high variance player. You have to be careful when ranking him after a big game to remember all the absolute duds he turns in when he dribbles the ball endlessly around the court without giving Durant a shot.

He isn't close to a top 5 player once you factor in games played. He played less minutes this year than even Manu.

he's averaging 27/8/8 for the entire playoffs, that includes his bad games

[sp6r=underrated]

caught the last 15 minutes of the game so I'm admittedly in the dark on what happened beyond Mr. high variance having a monster game. OKC ran them out of the building but I'll rewatch it on league pass to figure out how it happened.

Nonetheless, I don't think you can completely disregard the 1st two games of the series on account of the Ibaka injury. He's worth a lot but he isn't worth anything like the turn around we've seen from the games in SA to OKC. The two teams have now played 8 times this year with OKC winning by an average of .9. Hopefully, we'll get one close game in this series

Do you understand how important he is for OKC now though? He's not an amazing player, but on a flawed team like OKC where his role, the energy he provides, and the minutes he takes up so Adams/Collison/Perkins/Durant can play their optimal minutes in their optimal roles is extremely important.

Going against Pop, you'll need to make adjustments on the fly and have some roster flexibility. OKC was forced to put KD at PF for large swathes of the games, which clearly wasn't going to work since he doesn't impede ball or player movement enough. The Spurs ate him alive there.

I'm not responding to say I told you so. I'm responding to share with you why I believe all the pieces matter. Shaq/MJ/LBJ win a combined 0 rings without the 8th best player on their respective title teams. You wanted a flawed OKC team to put up more of a fight in the WCF without their third best player, without their most valuable big man. The chances of that happening were slim.

Serge Ibaka isn't an amazing player, but he's amazingly significant to how OKC plays 5 on 5 basketball.


As for the series...obviously I had a healthy OKC team winning this series, but with Ibaka out, I thought the Spurs would take it in 5. With Serge back, it gets interesting. OKC having to give up the first 2 games is really bad, and I suppose I'd still favor SA because of that, especially since Jackson might be out now, but I wouldn't be surprised if OKC 2012's this overrated team again to make the Finals.

got the disrespect you give SAS pissed me the f-ck off. It is a joke. You just refuse to accept a team can play at an elite level without a top 5 player. By any statistical measurement their an elite team that plays at a championship level. I have absolutely no doubt if they had secured one of those rebounds in G6 you would have found someone to claim they are overrated. It is utter bull. You aren't evaluating them based on how they played. You simply penalize them for not being built in the manner of how you think a great team should be built

Serge Ibaka's absence can't explain the blowout in G1 or G2. These are some of the posts from the MJ value season by season.

In terms of SRS

1985 +5.0
1986 +5.0
1987 +6.0
1988 +7.5
1989 +8.0
1990 +9.0
1991 +9.0
1992 +9.0
1993 +8.0
1995 +5.5
1996 +7.0
1997 +6.5
1998 +6.0
2002 +2.5
2003 +2.0

Even the player most people feel is the GOAT isn't worth anything close to 35 points. But I guess that is because he wasn't worth what Ibaka was to his team.

[Dr Positivity]

as said before, I missed almost the entire game save garbage time so I'm basing this off the box score.

Wasn't the difference on the offensive end mainly Westbrook going off himself rather than being enabled to go off due to the presence of better teammates? It doesn't look as if Jackson or Lamb did much. Did they impact SAS defensive schemes in a way that didn't show up in the box score?

Just remember OKC's home wins against the Spurs in 2012, it's a clone. OKC athleticism and physical tools advantages went insane and shook the Spurs out of their style and ball movement, which led to a lot of turnovers and OKC points the other way. OKC crowd is really loud. etc.

Here is the thing about 2012: a backdoor sweep isn't a sweep.It is a cute term but it isn't an accurate description of a series. Games 1 ad 2 aren't irrelevant because SAS lost the next 4. It would be silly to include them in your analysis if SAS had won say games 3 and 4 at home but not include them in your analysis because they happened in g1 and g2.

OKC didn't make any major strategic change going into G3 that suddenly rendered everything before that irrelevant. Accordingly, if you're going to include 2012 in your analysis you have to include all of 2012 in your analysis.

If you look at the Thunder's record against SAS since 2012 they are 13-8 with an average MOV of 1.33. That is a real advantage but it is far from a KO.

I don't remember the first 2 games of 2012 that well, but is it possible the Thunder/Scott Brooks just needed 2 games to figure out to guard the Spurs aggressively on the perimeter (and take advantage of possible favorable reffing)?

Either way both years OKC started dominating them athletically starting in G3 in both series for whatever reason. It may be w/e reason in 2012 (experience, coaching) and Ibaka in 2014 and the crowd both series. With that said Spurs in that backdoor sweep weren't that beat down. I think 2 of the 3 games they were never going to beat OKC in are in this series. They needed Kevin Durant's greatest playoff moment and OKC coming back from 17 down to lose the last 2 road games in 2012

[ronnymac2]

caught the last 15 minutes of the game so I'm admittedly in the dark on what happened beyond Mr. high variance having a monster game. OKC ran them out of the building but I'll rewatch it on league pass to figure out how it happened.

Nonetheless, I don't think you can completely disregard the 1st two games of the series on account of the Ibaka injury. He's worth a lot but he isn't worth anything like the turn around we've seen from the games in SA to OKC. The two teams have now played 8 times this year with OKC winning by an average of .9. Hopefully, we'll get one close game in this series

Do you understand how important he is for OKC now though? He's not an amazing player, but on a flawed team like OKC where his role, the energy he provides, and the minutes he takes up so Adams/Collison/Perkins/Durant can play their optimal minutes in their optimal roles is extremely important.

Going against Pop, you'll need to make adjustments on the fly and have some roster flexibility. OKC was forced to put KD at PF for large swathes of the games, which clearly wasn't going to work since he doesn't impede ball or player movement enough. The Spurs ate him alive there.

I'm not responding to say I told you so. I'm responding to share with you why I believe all the pieces matter. Shaq/MJ/LBJ win a combined 0 rings without the 8th best player on their respective title teams. You wanted a flawed OKC team to put up more of a fight in the WCF without their third best player, without their most valuable big man. The chances of that happening were slim.

Serge Ibaka isn't an amazing player, but he's amazingly significant to how OKC plays 5 on 5 basketball.


As for the series...obviously I had a healthy OKC team winning this series, but with Ibaka out, I thought the Spurs would take it in 5. With Serge back, it gets interesting. OKC having to give up the first 2 games is really bad, and I suppose I'd still favor SA because of that, especially since Jackson might be out now, but I wouldn't be surprised if OKC 2012's this overrated team again to make the Finals.

got the disrespect you give SAS pissed me the f-ck off. It is a joke. You just refuse to accept a team can play at an elite level without a top 5 player. By any statistical measurement their an elite team that plays at a championship level. I have absolutely no doubt if they had secured one of those rebounds in G6 you would have found someone to claim they are overrated. It is utter bull. You aren't evaluating them based on how they played. You simply penalize them for not being built in the manner of how you think a great team should be built

Serge Ibaka's absence can't explain the blowout in G1 or G2. These are some of the posts from the MJ value season by season.

In terms of SRS

1985 +5.0
1986 +5.0
1987 +6.0
1988 +7.5
1989 +8.0
1990 +9.0
1991 +9.0
1992 +9.0
1993 +8.0
1995 +5.5
1996 +7.0
1997 +6.5
1998 +6.0
2002 +2.5
2003 +2.0

Even the player most people feel is the GOAT isn't worth anything close to 35 points. But I guess that is because he wasn't worth what Ibaka was to his team.

That's based on an average level of play throughout a season. I'm not saying Serge Ibaka is worth the 36 points that SAS beat OKC by in an out-of-hand game. I'm saying in this particular matchup, having a healthy Serge Ibaka is the difference between the Spurs cruising to the NBA Finals and Oklahoma City overwhelming the Spurs.

You downplay how one player can make a huge difference in a series. You downplay how a team is constructed when it's perhaps the most important tool we've got to analyze a team.

And another thing. The Spurs you love are lauded for being this team that has great chemistry, works together, makes swing passes to open teammates, closeouts on shooters to cover for teammates, etc. And it's all true. They are a basketball clinic. In all honesty, I'll tear up when Pop and Duncan ride off, because they've been a part of the NBA since I started watching. The Spurs play beautiful basketball in my opinion.

But when teams with greater top-end talent like OKC face the Spurs, and they show that they sacrifice for each other and play together...the OKC-style team will win. Because OKC isn't just some team with a superstar duo. They might be flawed, and their 4-12 aren't nearly as purely talented as SAS or some other teams, but the contributions of their 4-12 get disrespected. The unity and synergy of teams like that get disrespected. It's been happening since I started watching basketball, when Shaq and Kobe got the headlines. The reality is that Shaq and Kobe are losers without Brian Shaw making an important pass in a crucial moment and Rick Fox taking a charge when Shaq misses a rotation.

You say my disrespect for SAS pisses you off. That's fine. I respect what Popovich has done, the system he has built and the way Duncan/Parker/Ginobili demand accountability and follow Pop. They've been consistently great for over 15 years doing it that way. That's amazing stuff.

It pisses me off when people don't appreciate the 4-12 players on teams with a Big 3 or superstar duo. I loved when Reggie Jackson dropped 30 on Memphis. I didn't think any less of Westbrook/Durant.

It makes me think you don't care about how a team functions and how a team matches up against other teams.

[sp6r=underrated]

So I assume you are prepared to state the 01 WCF no longer counts. After all the Spurs after the Anderson injury were forced to guard Kobe with a 400 year old Terry Porter. I think that is absurd but hey that is the only logical consistent position.

I also have no idea how you can be so 100% certain this type of SAS team can't win a title. I highly doubt you were watching G6 on the couch with 30 seconds to go saying "this is over. Miami is 100% certain to win."

[ronnymac2]

In all honesty, as much as I hate to say it, yeah, I think the 01 Lakers — a team I rooted for at the time — get slightly overrated on this board. That isn't to say I don't believe they could match up with any team ever, because Shaq/Kobe is the most talented duo of all-time and they've got amazing role players, but LA faced the Spurs without their third best player. If you were to count that against them, I wouldn't have a problem with it.