2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[ronnymac2]

I also have no idea how you can be so 100% certain this type of SAS team can't win a title. I highly doubt you were watching G6 on the couch with 30 seconds to go saying "this is over. Miami is 100% certain to win."

1. I was standing up, hoping LeBron could keep his run going and hit some 3's.
2. Another part of me was fuming because I thought back to the WCF, and how the Spurs got lucky they didn't need to face OKC due to RW getting injured.

[ronnymac2]

And for the record, it's not that I don't think teams like SAS can win titles.

I don't think the Spurs can win with the current competition in 2014, so long as everybody is healthy.

[mopper8]

To me, Ibaka just seems like he's a tipping point player for OKC, where his presence allows their overall athleticism and talent to overwhelm SA's execution. But without him they don't have quite enough--talent, athleticism, depth & flexibility, etc.

[HeartBreakKid]

And for the record, it's not that I don't think teams like SAS can win titles.

You can't say that about a squad that went 7 games deep in the NBA finals.

[PaulieWal]

I can't tell if ronnymac and sp6r are actually arguing or if this is a Matt Damon-Jimmy Kimmel type of running gag. I say that because both of them are good posters and often have the same logical points/arguments.

[sp6r=underrated]

In all honesty, as much as I hate to say it, yeah, I think the 01 Lakers — a team I rooted for at the time — get slightly overrated on this board. That isn't to say I don't believe they could match up with any team ever, because Shaq/Kobe is the most talented duo of all-time and they've got amazing role players, but LA faced the Spurs without their third best player. If you were to count that against them, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

It seems to me your logic leads to the strong conclusion that we dramatically overvalue the playoffs in evaluating teams and players. After all the playoffs cannot be relied on to evaluate players/teams due to the sample size involved if you are correct that even the starkest of domination can be swayed by injury.

[ronnymac2]

It seems to me your logic leads to the strong conclusion that we dramatically overvalue the playoffs in evaluating teams and players. After all the playoffs cannot be relied on to evaluate players/teams due to the sample size involved if you are correct that even the starkest of domination can be swayed by injury.

To the bolded...I believe every piece on the chess board matters, so yeah, I don't take injuries lightly when evaluating what happened/predicting what I think will happen. It sucks when evaluating what happened amidst injury, however, because we're stuck with the one reality we were given, and we can't see what would happen had that injury not occurred. That sometimes affects player and team evaluation, and it's not always fair.

Which leads me to "we dramatically overvalue the playoffs in evaluating teams and players." We do the best we can. I do the best I can. We're only given one reality.

I think the playoffs illuminate the pros and cons of players and teams more than the regular season. For me, the regular season is the sample more prone to randomness because of the structure, the emphasis players/teams put on it, and the human element.

Coaches aren't game planning as much against specific opponents. Back-to-backs. Coach Spo not wanting to show his gameplan to Indiana in a regular season game. A player sits when he'd play in the playoffs. Popovich experimenting with different lineups, not caring about the outcome for a particular quarter against the Clippers, so long as he finds out if the lineup of Duncan/Diaw/Marco/Manu/Mills works against LA when DeAndre is playing.

Playoffs roll around, there's no hiding. Everybody puts a tuxedo on. Let's see what you got. By Game 4 (Using the fourth game as an example here, it could be different in every series), there's no more chess game. It's who's better, who's got the matchup advantage, etc.

It's not perfect. And I don't read it perfectly. It is flawed, and so am I, but it's what I have to work with.

[bondom34]

To me, Ibaka just seems like he's a tipping point player for OKC, where his presence allows their overall athleticism and talent to overwhelm SA's execution. But without him they don't have quite enough--talent, athleticism, depth & flexibility, etc.

This is really good analysis of it IMO. I think its not necessarily Ibaka, but any of the big 3 guys. We saw the same thing last year w Westbrook where they looked lost against Memphis without Westbrook. This year its the Spurs and Ibaka. If you remove any of those 3, they just don't quite have enough.

[Dr Positivity]

I will admit I've been calling for OKC to get exposed in these playoffs as not having a smart or flexible enough offense and have been wrong. In spite of their overall poor numbers, I have to credit OKC for the Fisher and Butler signings, just having them stand at the 3pt line seems to help a lot on a team where their total lack of physical imprint can be covered elsewhere, in addition to providing a steady confidence. Tonight was the first time I felt like OKC was a title caliber team (and now that I say that Spurs will win in 6)

[RSCD3_]

I dont like baylessian arguments but I believe the spurs have built up Serge Ibaka to be this incredible all nba player in their minds. What he has done goes beyond what his RS impact would suggest.

For the thunder, now that they have their rim protector back they have all decided to play more chaotic, clockwork busting defense. Now ibaka obviously help cover for their mistakes but the team looks a lot more engaged on that end and I think ibaka's return was the cause of it.

Also the spurs have let IBAKA's presence effect them. They are overly cautious in the paint and this limits how many easy shots they can get.

Furthermore when OKC is scrambling they are able to get more turnovers. To counter this the spurs players passed the ball around far less and this resulted in worse shot selection and more iso ball which hurts the spurs because they dont have alot of guys who can create well for themselves.

So Ibaka is causing them headaches which is understandable but the impact he's having is something like a 7'1 Hakeem, and the gao between expected value and production is probably more to do with the spurs adjusting badly to it than ibaka playing spectacular.


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[PaulieWal]

I dont like baylessian arguments but I believe the spurs have built up Serge Ibaka to be this incredible all nba player in their minds. What he has done goes beyond what his RS impact would suggest.

I agree with this. It does seem like that they are being too cautious about where he is at all times. If I am Pop I go small like Miami and hope to draw Ibaka out of the paint. You can easily guard Ibaka with a smaller player because he isn't going to post you up. I liked that Pop went small against Miami last year as well. To me it only makes sense here. Space the floor and try to draw Ibaka out of the paint. That should open up driving lanes for TP and help him collapse the defense to find his shooters.

[NinjaSheppard]

I will admit I've been calling for OKC to get exposed in these playoffs as not having a smart or flexible enough offense and have been wrong. In spite of their overall poor numbers, I have to credit OKC for the Fisher and Butler signings, just having them stand at the 3pt line seems to help a lot on a team where their total lack of physical imprint can be covered elsewhere, in addition to providing a steady confidence. Tonight was the first time I felt like OKC was a title caliber team (and now that I say that Spurs will win in 6)

Do you still think the the Thunder should trade Westbrook to the Celtics for a peso on the dollar

[bondom34]

I will admit I've been calling for OKC to get exposed in these playoffs as not having a smart or flexible enough offense and have been wrong. In spite of their overall poor numbers, I have to credit OKC for the Fisher and Butler signings, just having them stand at the 3pt line seems to help a lot on a team where their total lack of physical imprint can be covered elsewhere, in addition to providing a steady confidence. Tonight was the first time I felt like OKC was a title caliber team (and now that I say that Spurs will win in 6)

Do you still think the the Thunder should trade Westbrook to the Celtics for a peso on the dollar

[Dr Positivity]

I will admit I've been calling for OKC to get exposed in these playoffs as not having a smart or flexible enough offense and have been wrong. In spite of their overall poor numbers, I have to credit OKC for the Fisher and Butler signings, just having them stand at the 3pt line seems to help a lot on a team where their total lack of physical imprint can be covered elsewhere, in addition to providing a steady confidence. Tonight was the first time I felt like OKC was a title caliber team (and now that I say that Spurs will win in 6)

Do you still think the the Thunder should trade Westbrook to the Celtics for a peso on the dollar

If you're asking me whether I think they'd be an even better team with Rondo, Green and Sullinger instead of Westbrook, yes I do

[bondom34]

I will admit I've been calling for OKC to get exposed in these playoffs as not having a smart or flexible enough offense and have been wrong. In spite of their overall poor numbers, I have to credit OKC for the Fisher and Butler signings, just having them stand at the 3pt line seems to help a lot on a team where their total lack of physical imprint can be covered elsewhere, in addition to providing a steady confidence. Tonight was the first time I felt like OKC was a title caliber team (and now that I say that Spurs will win in 6)

Do you still think the the Thunder should trade Westbrook to the Celtics for a peso on the dollar

If you're asking me whether I think they'd be an even better team with Rondo, Green and Sullinger instead of Westbrook, yes I do

You're on an island my man, but you're brave.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

I don't normally like to bump threads for negative reasons, but is it safe to say Paul George is out of everyone's top 5 now? He had a fairly underwhelming playoffs, and was far less impressive in the Heat series this season than last (his numbers look about the same but a lot of that was garbage time padding in game 6, he was 1/6 in the first half when the game was decided).

At this point I don't see how he can be argued over Chris Paul, Stephen Curry, Kevin Love, etc.... just a few of the people that are in competition for people's #5 spot. Great start to the season, but far too inconsistent overall, I think he's too much of a shooter without enough of a handle to consistently put his imprint on games (almost reminds me of Eddie Jones in that way).

[Run DLC]

To me, Ibaka just seems like he's a tipping point player for OKC, where his presence allows their overall athleticism and talent to overwhelm SA's execution. But without him they don't have quite enough--talent, athleticism, depth & flexibility, etc.

In other words, he's the head of the snake for OKC's defense.

[Texas Chuck]

To me, Ibaka just seems like he's a tipping point player for OKC, where his presence allows their overall athleticism and talent to overwhelm SA's execution. But without him they don't have quite enough--talent, athleticism, depth & flexibility, etc.

yeah quality smart veteran teams always have as a weakness the teams that can just overwhelm them with athleticism. Spurs have long struggled with this. My Mavs did as well in the Kidd/Dirk/Marion/JET era. But if you lose even that one piece they can overcome with all the things they do better than anyone else in the league execution-wise at both ends.

Great observation.

[mopper8]

To me, Ibaka just seems like he's a tipping point player for OKC, where his presence allows their overall athleticism and talent to overwhelm SA's execution. But without him they don't have quite enough--talent, athleticism, depth & flexibility, etc.

In other words, he's the head of the snake for OKC's defense.

Sorta. Or its like a three-legged stool. Remove any of the three legs and it falls over, but with all three, super sturdy.

To me, Ibaka just seems like he's a tipping point player for OKC, where his presence allows their overall athleticism and talent to overwhelm SA's execution. But without him they don't have quite enough--talent, athleticism, depth & flexibility, etc.

yeah quality smart veteran teams always have as a weakness the teams that can just overwhelm them with athleticism. Spurs have long struggled with this. My Mavs did as well in the Kidd/Dirk/Marion/JET era. But if you lose even that one piece they can overcome with all the things they do better than anyone else in the league execution-wise at both ends.

Great observation.

thanks, nice comparison with those Mavs, I agree totally.

[sp6r=underrated]

Pretty shocking that this is the first finals rematch in 16 years, There have been plenty of opportunities for it to happen over that span.