Simmons: Reinsdorf Runs Bulls Like Small Market Team

[Leslie Forman]

Many people here bash GarPax for never making a really good upgrade trade. Maybe the blame should be up a little higher in the org. Maybe GarPax is limited financially to the point where they can't make these deals. This isn't random speculation either. That's specifically what Heisley said years ago about what went on.

Everybody assumes that Heisley was trying to screw the Bulls over by trading Gasol to the Lakers, when they wanted salary relief and the Bulls kept trying to push Nocioni's terrible contract on them. They had the rights to PJ Brown, who was just sitting on his ass doing nothing, and could have signed him to a new deal and used his contract, but that would have put the Bulls over the luxury tax.

Gasol was essentially available for nothing more than pure cash basically, and Jerry was not willing to do it because they weren't a "contender." That's a small market move. It's something that nobody ever criticizes the franchise for when it's one of the dumbest, cheapest things they've ever done (or not done).

[organix85]

Many people here bash GarPax for never making a really good upgrade trade. Maybe the blame should be up a little higher in the org. Maybe GarPax is limited financially to the point where they can't make these deals. This isn't random speculation either. That's specifically what Heisley said years ago about what went on.

Everybody assumes that Heisley was trying to screw the Bulls over by trading Gasol to the Lakers, when they wanted salary relief and the Bulls kept trying to push Nocioni's terrible contract on them. They had the rights to PJ Brown, who was just sitting on his ass doing nothing, and could have signed him to a new deal and used his contract, but that would have put the Bulls over the luxury tax.

Gasol was essentially available for nothing more than pure cash basically, and Jerry was not willing to do it because they weren't a "contender." That's a small market move. It's something that nobody ever criticizes the franchise for when it's one of the dumbest, cheapest things they've ever done (or not done).

That whole situation is easily #1 on events that bugged the hell out of me. The Bulls don't do big trades cause they seem to be a pain in the ass to deal with. I don't know if it's JR or GarPax, but I am just baffled at times seeing what I see here... defending these guys like they are something other than what they've proven for over a decade.

But the quote from Heisley is terrible for us:

"We had conversations with Chicago which were non-satisfactory," Heisley said in the Commercial-Appeal. "They didn't want to take on the luxury-tax situation and Los Angeles was. In this league, if you're in a big-market area you can afford to do those things.

"We negotiated as hard as we could for quality players and (the Bulls) refused to give up anybody in their core group. What they offered us were guys who play on the second and third team, so we turned them down."

This whole thread of people trying to bash Simmons for what he said is a joke.

[Rerisen]

"We negotiated as hard as we could for quality players and (the Bulls) refused to give up anybody in their core group. What they offered us were guys who play on the second and third team, so we turned them down."

This falls more under the criticism of 'over valuing their own players' or falling in love with guys they drafted. It's pretty clear by the comments that the Bulls didn't even want to put one quality guy in, and Pax later admitted his no trade position on Deng, despite people tried to excuse that move endlessly with hand waving that Memphis wanted half our team "they were demanding Gordon AND Deng" which was never true and refuted clearly by Heisley here and eventually Paxson himself.

Or his stance on Deng may have just been a big smokescreen and Paxson saying they thought Deng was going to become a star and post threat himself was just a cover story for not wanting to take on Gasol's much bigger deal, and the reality that Deng was much cheaper, and of course that PJ Brown was going to be large savings once he expired.

[organix85]

"We negotiated as hard as we could for quality players and (the Bulls) refused to give up anybody in their core group. What they offered us were guys who play on the second and third team, so we turned them down."

This falls more under the criticism of 'over valuing their own players' or falling in love with guys they drafted. It's pretty clear by the comments that the Bulls didn't even want to put one quality guy in, and Pax later admitted his no trade position on Deng, despite people tried to excuse that move endlessly with hand waving that Memphis wanted half our team "they were demanding Gordon AND Deng" which was never true and refuted clearly by Heisley here and eventually Paxson himself.

Or his stance on Deng may have just been a big smokescreen and Paxson saying they thought Deng was going to become a star and post threat himself was just a cover story for not wanting to take on Gasol's much bigger deal, and the reality that Deng was much cheaper, and of course that PJ Brown was going to be large savings once he expired.

I don't know... I wouldn't say that. It seems very clear to me that there was a spending issue as well and that's my gripe. Overvaluing guys is a whole other thing, but don't forget the first part of that quote. It is pretty clear unless he just flat out lied about it:

"They didn't want to take on the luxury-tax situation and Los Angeles was. In this league, if you're in a big-market area you can afford to do those things."

[Stratmaster]

I did say we'll take care of own..maybe u should read it again. I'm saying there's guys we've had that would help a lot with OFFENSE which we struggle with but we chose to let them go cause we were cheap.

There's a reason Rose is blowing out his knees..he feels he has to do it all and he does cause he knows he has no help offensively.

I'm not saying we should spend money like the Nets..I'm saying there's been guys we should have kept.

??? Kyle, Nate and DJ were/are "our own". I don't get it.

My point was we'll take care of our own..Rose, Noah, Gibson, Deng (guys we drafted are our own)..but when it comes to keeping guys (FA's) that would help greatly on offense like a Nate or Korver or DJ (we don't know about him yet)..we'll say we can't afford them. Sorry, it wasn't really that difficult on what my point was.

Sorry, but you do realize that when your point doesn't make sense you just saying "it wasn't that difficult" doesn't change things. Deng was traded because they wouldn't pay him. And rightfully so. Gibson will be traded if it means they can get Melo or another star, and rightfully so. Nate is not a good NBA player and MDJ was an upgrade. I do miss Korver, but Thibs had no clue how to use him...because he isn't a dribble-scoring PG.

The argument has gone from the Bulls being a small market team (meaning they don't spend money), to examples of them spending money being dismissed as "we only pay our own" (which effectively negates the first argument of them being a small market team)...and that argument being based on them not paying Nate (they couldn't have even if they wanted to), Korver, and the assumption they won't pay DJ (they probably won't, but only because they make a major move).

I have no doubt the Bulls will spend money on a player they think can get them over the hump, just like they did when they spent money on boozer and Korver and built the team that would have been the only real challenge to the Heat on an annual basis.

The Bulls problem is the 20 mil sitting on the sidelines not playing. Not that they are unwilling to spend money.

If you think Nate, Kyle or DJ being let go is the reason Rose blew out his knees; or that any player personnel issues are the reason Rose blew out his knees... well, that is just way out there.

[DanTown8587]

"We negotiated as hard as we could for quality players and (the Bulls) refused to give up anybody in their core group. What they offered us were guys who play on the second and third team, so we turned them down."

This falls more under the criticism of 'over valuing their own players' or falling in love with guys they drafted. It's pretty clear by the comments that the Bulls didn't even want to put one quality guy in, and Pax later admitted his no trade position on Deng, despite people tried to excuse that move endlessly with hand waving that Memphis wanted half our team "they were demanding Gordon AND Deng" which was never true and refuted clearly by Heisley here and eventually Paxson himself.

Or his stance on Deng may have just been a big smokescreen and Paxson saying they thought Deng was going to become a star and post threat himself was just a cover story for not wanting to take on Gasol's much bigger deal, and the reality that Deng was much cheaper, and of course that PJ Brown was going to be large savings once he expired.

You do realize that trading a player of Deng's quality would have turned out to be a massive overpay for Gasol, right? The Grizzles eventually settled on a recent #1 (Crittenton), the rights to a prospect (Gasol), two #1, and an expiring. No where in that deal is any asset worth Deng.

The Gasol deal was simply financial in that the Bulls wouldn't use PJ to give the Grizzles the money and wanted to deal Noce instead (who had a lot of money left).

I also want to point out that Heisley is the same owner who turned down two firsts and Brewer for Mayo to watch Mayo walk a year later. And my god does Heisley hate JR. And Heisley is the idiot who sold his team a year too early.

[Leslie Forman]

I have no doubt the Bulls will spend money on a player they think can get them over the hump, just like they did when they spent money on boozer and Korver and built the team that would have been the only real challenge to the Heat on an annual basis.

This is essentially nothing more than the Bucks spending cheese on OJ Mayo or something, though. They were under the cap and those guys simply took their payroll up to the cap.

Somehow I don't think LA, NY, Dallas, or Brooklyn fans think their owners are generous because they are willing to spend as much money as Milwaukee.

I also want to point out that Heisley is the same owner who turned down two firsts and Brewer for Mayo to watch Mayo walk a year later. And my god does Heisley hate JR. And Heisley is the idiot who sold his team a year too early.

This is more misinformation. Memphis wanted relief from Mayo's salary, and again, the Bulls kept offering players that would have cost them more money.

If I was Heisley, I'd have absolutely blocked any Bulls phone numbers for their insulting trade offers.

[Stratmaster]

I have no doubt the Bulls will spend money on a player they think can get them over the hump, just like they did when they spent money on boozer and Korver and built the team that would have been the only real challenge to the Heat on an annual basis.

This is essentially nothing more than the Bucks spending cheese on OJ Mayo or something, though. They were under the cap and those guys simply took their payroll up to the cap.

Somehow I don't think LA, NY, Dallas, or Brooklyn fans think their owners are generous because they are willing to spend as much money as Milwaukee.

I also want to point out that Heisley is the same owner who turned down two firsts and Brewer for Mayo to watch Mayo walk a year later. And my god does Heisley hate JR. And Heisley is the idiot who sold his team a year too early.

This is more misinformation. Memphis wanted relief from Mayo's salary, and again, the Bulls kept offering players that would have cost them more money.

If I was Heisley, I'd have absolutely blocked any Bulls phone numbers for their insulting trade offers.

Who could the Bulls have gotten that was more expensive than Boozer and Korver? Who should they have added that they didn't? Was that team, pre-injury, the best team in the league not named Miami or not?

[musiqsoulchild]

To add to Stratmaster's point, consider the following 3 lineups.

In 2012 our team should have made it all the way to the NBA Finals. See team below:

Rose / CJ
Korver / Butler / Rip
Deng / Brewer
Boozer / Taj
Noah / Asik

In the 2013 playoffs, our team should have again made it all the way to the ECF.

Rose / Kirk / Nate
Marco / Butler
Deng / Butler
Boozer / Taj
Noah / Taj

In 2014, our team should be beating Miami soundly with the following roster:

Rose / Kirk
Butler / Kirk
Deng / Dunleavy
Boozer / Taj
Noah / Taj

Yeah, you cant draw conclusions about your FO, when the central assumption that Rose be available has failed in 3 consecutive playoffs.

[GetBuLLish]

Really good offensive help added to Derrick includes:

1) Carlos Boozer
2) Kyle Korver
3) Marco Bellinelli
4) MDJ

You're joking right?

I honestly thought it was a joke..

[Leslie Forman]

Who could the Bulls have gotten that was more expensive than Boozer and Korver? Who should they have added that they didn't? Was that team, pre-injury, the best team in the league not named Miami or not?

That's not the point. If you're going to try and insinuate that Reinsdorf is a big spender, spending it when you just have a bunch of cap space is meaningless because even small market teams do that regularly.

Their effective payroll ceiling is basically the luxury tax, which is no different from all the small market teams of the league.

[Rerisen]

You do realize that trading a player of Deng's quality would have turned out to be a massive overpay for Gasol, right? The Grizzles eventually settled on a recent #1 (Crittenton), the rights to a prospect (Gasol), two #1, and an expiring. No where in that deal is any asset worth Deng.

Another team getting a better deal than you doesn't make *your team* get better though. It was a year later and their demands lessened, but we didn't have the parts to get it done any longer.

Gasol was a lot better than Deng, and went on to help the Lakers win 2 titles.

[Stratmaster]

Who could the Bulls have gotten that was more expensive than Boozer and Korver? Who should they have added that they didn't? Was that team, pre-injury, the best team in the league not named Miami or not?

That's not the point. If you're going to try and insinuate that Reinsdorf is a big spender, spending it when you just have a bunch of cap space is meaningless because even small market teams do that regularly.

Their effective payroll ceiling is basically the luxury tax, which is no different from all the small market teams of the league.

So your position is that if he doesn''t spend a bunch of money, just because he is in a big market, regardless of whether there is anyone worth spending that money on who would make the team better, than he is operating like a small market owner. See the New York Knicks.

[organix85]

I also want to point out that Heisley is the same owner who turned down two firsts and Brewer for Mayo to watch Mayo walk a year later. And my god does Heisley hate JR. And Heisley is the idiot who sold his team a year too early.

To be fair, the Bulls offer wasn't really that amazing. The Grizzlies were very clear that they wanted a big man for their playoff run and we offered them a SG that they had just cut the prior season. Why would Chicago think Memphis would really want the guy they just let go?

[DanTown8587]

I have no doubt the Bulls will spend money on a player they think can get them over the hump, just like they did when they spent money on boozer and Korver and built the team that would have been the only real challenge to the Heat on an annual basis.

This is essentially nothing more than the Bucks spending cheese on OJ Mayo or something, though. They were under the cap and those guys simply took their payroll up to the cap.

Somehow I don't think LA, NY, Dallas, or Brooklyn fans think their owners are generous because they are willing to spend as much money as Milwaukee.

I also want to point out that Heisley is the same owner who turned down two firsts and Brewer for Mayo to watch Mayo walk a year later. And my god does Heisley hate JR. And Heisley is the idiot who sold his team a year too early.

This is more misinformation. Memphis wanted relief from Mayo's salary, and again, the Bulls kept offering players that would have cost them more money.

If I was Heisley, I'd have absolutely blocked any Bulls phone numbers for their insulting trade offers.

So Memphis wanted to save money yet wouldn't take the basically expiring Brewer and two firsts for Mayo because...

[ptpablo]

I also want to point out that Heisley is the same owner who turned down two firsts and Brewer for Mayo to watch Mayo walk a year later. And my god does Heisley hate JR. And Heisley is the idiot who sold his team a year too early.

To be fair, the Bulls offer wasn't really that amazing. The Grizzlies were very clear that they wanted a big man for their playoff run and we offered them a SG that they had just cut the prior season. Why would Chicago think Memphis would really want the guy they just let go?

Salary filler?

[DanTown8587]

You do realize that trading a player of Deng's quality would have turned out to be a massive overpay for Gasol, right? The Grizzles eventually settled on a recent #1 (Crittenton), the rights to a prospect (Gasol), two #1, and an expiring. No where in that deal is any asset worth Deng.

Another team getting a better deal than you doesn't make *your team* get better though. It was a year later and their demands lessened, but we didn't have the parts to get it done any longer.

Gasol was a lot better than Deng, and went on to help the Lakers win 2 titles.

Trading Deng for Gasol is a move that slightly makes you better because you just traded 18 points to get back 20 and 10. Of course Gasol is the better player but the cost of acquiring Gasol did not require trading Luol Deng to do it, the Bulls simply didn't spend (PJ) to do it.

Trading Deng to get Gasol takes one hole (interior scoring) and creates another (two way player on the perimeter). The team that should have happened was Kirk / BG/ Deng / Gasol / Wallace. That means Bulls should have been offering Tyrus, Knicks pick/Noah, and expiring contracts to get him and that would have been enough.

It's funny, THAT's the "ownership screwed us over" move because if you trade PJ then you're not having to even have discussions about Deng.

[Rerisen]

Trading Deng for Gasol is a move that slightly makes you better because you just traded 18 points to get back 20 and 10. Of course Gasol is the better player but the cost of acquiring Gasol did not require trading Luol Deng to do it, the Bulls simply didn't spend (PJ) to do it.

Trading Deng to get Gasol takes one hole (interior scoring) and creates another (two way player on the perimeter). The team that should have happened was Kirk / BG/ Deng / Gasol / Wallace. That means Bulls should have been offering Tyrus, Knicks pick/Noah, and expiring contracts to get him and that would have been enough.

It's funny, THAT's the "ownership screwed us over" move because if you trade PJ then you're not having to even have discussions about Deng.

IDK when Pax defended not doing the deal most of his justification was about not including Deng. Oh, and not having a SF for the playoffs since Noc was hurt. Apparently we had title aspirations that year either way.

I recall earlier in the rumors that year Heisley declared wanting cap relief and at least one young talent.

Financially your team there is going to get real expensive. If they didnt want to pay Gasol on his own merit, surely would not have wanted to on top of Deng and BG's imminent deals. Big Ben 16 / Deng 9 / Gordon 9 / Gasol 12 / Kirk 10, etc by 08.

[Leslie Forman]

So your position is that if he doesn''t spend a bunch of money, just because he is in a big market, regardless of whether there is anyone worth spending that money on who would make the team better, than he is operating like a small market owner. See the New York Knicks.

When he's so unwilling to go into the luxury tax that he won't do it to essentially get a top-10-20ish player in his prime for damn near free (except for the money, of course), yeah, he's a small market owner.

So Memphis wanted to save money yet wouldn't take the basically expiring Brewer and two firsts for Mayo because...

Because Brewer wasn't expiring, that's why.

[DanTown8587]

Trading Deng for Gasol is a move that slightly makes you better because you just traded 18 points to get back 20 and 10. Of course Gasol is the better player but the cost of acquiring Gasol did not require trading Luol Deng to do it, the Bulls simply didn't spend (PJ) to do it.

Trading Deng to get Gasol takes one hole (interior scoring) and creates another (two way player on the perimeter). The team that should have happened was Kirk / BG/ Deng / Gasol / Wallace. That means Bulls should have been offering Tyrus, Knicks pick/Noah, and expiring contracts to get him and that would have been enough.

It's funny, THAT's the "ownership screwed us over" move because if you trade PJ then you're not having to even have discussions about Deng.

IDK when Pax defended not doing the deal most of his justification was about not including Deng. Oh, and not having a SF for the playoffs since Noc was hurt. Apparently we had title aspirations that year either way.

I recall earlier in the rumors that year Heisley declared wanting cap relief and at least one young talent.

Financially your team there is going to get real expensive. If they didnt want to pay Gasol on his own merit, surely would not have wanted to on top of Deng and BG's imminent deals.

You're shocked that Paxson publicly said the deal was about not wanting to give up Deng and not that JR wasn't going to spend to get a player like Gasol? Really?

The Bulls had just drafted Tyrus Thomas #2 and had the Knicks pick swap (or Noah depending on year) to offer, it's not like Deng was the only young guy on the roster. It seems logical that offering Thomas (a PF with high upside), expirings and the Knicks pick gets that deal done.