OT: Do (baseball) fans care about new breed of stats?

[godkingleonidas]

For those of you old-timers who don’t know, WARP (or WAR), stands for “Wins Above Replacement Player,” and it is the be-all and end-all number for the New Breed Stat Guys. As defined in Baseball Prospectus (an indispensable preseason guide even diamond Luddites can enjoy), WARP attempts to quantify “the difference between the ‘replacement level’ (derived from looking at the quality of players added to a team’s roster after the start of the season) and the league average.” You are allowed to remain skeptical about its validity in my view, but the New Breed Stat Guys swear by it.

What ultimately matters is whether you can still appreciate a given baseball game. I wonder if the New Breed Stat Guys ever actually enjoy a game, because they are so obsessed with what the manager is or isn’t doing, based on the data in front of them. They’re often upset before the game even starts, because the lineup isn’t sufficiently stat-based. And God forbid the skipper who doesn’t properly handle what they have termed “high leverage” situations. Sometimes lost in all this is an appreciation of the aesthetics, whether it’s a great play in the hole by a shortstop or a snappy inning-ending 5-4-3 double play or a base runner cleverly taking an extra base. Or even a game-winning hit in the ninth inning if it happens to be delivered by someone other than the guy they thought should have been up at the plate. Sometimes the New Breed Stat Guys aren’t so good about accepting the vagaries of a very complex game.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/05/17/baseball-fans-care-about-new-breed-stats/5C3wVETWOubtGjE78Og2RP/story.html

Have we become so driven by statistics that we can no longer "simply enjoy" a sporting match? Celebrate a player/coach? Do you favour the "Eye test" or "PER"/"WARP"?

[OakleyDokely]

Can't you like watching the games and looking at the advanced stats?

[Patman]

Personally, I like them. But I don't shove them down people's throats.

What I don't get is the people that HATE them. Why the hell would you let some numbers ruin your enjoyment of the sport? Just ignore them! Lol.

They're not for fans, anyways. Those are intended for decision-makers. The fact that some fans enjoy them is cool, but it's not a requirement in order to enjoy a sport.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Can't you like watching the games and looking at the advanced stats?

This. The only people who think that it's one or the other seem to be the people who refuse to try to understand some of the advanced stats.

[Rapcity_11]

LOL

Anti-analytics articles are always the worst. Just filled with strawmen and based on the premise that using/liking stats is somehow mutually exclusive from watching/enjoying the game.

[Meursault]

bought this amazing book the other day:

http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Basebal ... ata+with+r

really fun and interesting stuff.

as for whether stats ruins my appreciation of baseball - of course not, it enhances it. i don't sit beside the TV with a computer or calculator though; i like the stats stuff for before and after ballgames.

[Schad]

WAR is a new-fangled stat now?

[Fairview4Life]

This is why Fire Joe Morgan was indispensable.

[Nocturne]

Can't vote on any of the options because I care about all of them when watching baseball.

[Tuuk]

I really enjoy the analytical side of baseball, in between games, I enjoy researching about who on the team is playing well, is their defense good/bad/average, etc? Is there production the result of unsustainable luck/external factors or has an adjustment been made? Is the player as good as the media narrative would suggest, etc? Basically, just keeping an informed opinion.

During the game, I don't really do any of that. I just watch the games, reading about baseball when the game isn't being played makes the game much more enjoyable in my opinion. Especially in late game situations, mapping out what you'd do if you were the manager as the game nears a conclusion. But at the end of the day, I watch because its a competitive event, with an unpredictable outcome. As a fan, you just cheer and hope.

I don't think trying to be informed as possible reduces my level of enjoyment, rather, it increases it because I have a greater appreciation for what is happening.

[Santoki]

I'm not much of a stathead. I understand the basics and their importance. But, I tend to skim the articles/posts that delve into a lot of detail on them. However, I expect the people in charge to understand them and employ them at all levels of the organization. I don't see how you can be involved in baseball in 2014 and not have an understanding of them.

As far as the games go, because I watch so many of them, I tend to get a pretty good idea of who should be used where and in what situation - definitely more than the average fan. Yesterday we saw Lind have to face McGee and the first thing that crossed my mind was his terrible splits against lefties. Naturally, I looked to the bench and there you had Tolleson who I thought should pinch-hit. The only problem is that by pinch-hitting him there, you aren't able to bring him in defensively in that situation and he's stuck in the cleanup spot in a tied game. That's about as deep as I tend to go in terms of stats in-game.

You can still enjoy baseball and have a knowledgeable conversation about it without really understanding what the hell wOBA, wRC+ and xFIP are...which frankly I never took the time to learn more about.

[CrookedJ]

I really enjoy the analytical side of baseball, in between games, I enjoy researching about who on the team is playing well, is their defense good/bad/average, etc? Is there production the result of unsustainable luck/external factors or has an adjustment been made? Is the player as good as the media narrative would suggest, etc? Basically, just keeping an informed opinion.

During the game, I don't really do any of that. I just watch the games, reading about baseball when the game isn't being played makes the game much more enjoyable in my opinion. Especially in late game situations, mapping out what you'd do if you were the manager as the game nears a conclusion. But at the end of the day, I watch because its a competitive event, with an unpredictable outcome. As a fan, you just cheer and hope.

I don't think trying to be informed as possible reduces my level of enjoyment, rather, it increases it because I have a greater appreciation for what is happening.

I agree. I love watching the games and rarely think about analytic stuff then. Well I watch a lot of them with my little dude and we spend a lot of time talking about the basic rules and what they are doing. It's a blast.

Love to read in depth analysis I between games though and help figure out my fantasy team can't make it over the hump.

It's not like the game broadcasts are shoving advanced stats down your throat. You can easily watch the games without even thinking about them.

[akakalakin]

how did Lee Mazzilli and Mookie Wilson bring the Jays back while being coached by Cito?

[baulderdash77]

I like advanced stats, but I sometimes find that advanced stat "guys" stop being fans and take some of the fun out of being a fan.

[satyr9]

I like advanced stats, but I sometimes find that advanced stat "guys" stop being fans and take some of the fun out of being a fan.

Shut up, you can't post here until you've finished your homework.

https://www.edx.org/course/bux/bux-sabr ... 4h2OihhXYU

The quiz is on Tuesday, everyone who gets under a 70% gets waived from the forum. This is SRSBSNS people, how can we be expected to enjoy talking about Baseball with people who don't know the difference between xFIP and SIERA?

[vini_vidi_vici]

I hate Bob Ryan, the personality and writer, but its spurred some interesting dialogue all over the internets.

heres part 2, Bob Ryans battle with WAR.

And heres Jonah Keris podcast (which is pretty good, albeit focuses on one topic too much, who cares about the Rockies?!? hah), in which he talks to Bob Ryan and discusses all this at length.

[tecumseh18]

This is so misguided and stupid, because (1) the advanced stats are actually designed to be easily understood, even if you don't know how to calculate them, and (2) baseball has always been statistics based. We were just focused on the wrong stats.

But still getting it right. For example. the year Rod Carew won the MVP (1977), yes he batted .388, and that was all the media talked about (I was a kid, but Rod Carew's batting averages filtered into my consciousness). But his OPS was >1.000. His adjusted OPS+ was 178, tops in baseball that year. His WAR was 9.7. Rod had a great year, and deserved his MVP. Sure his BAbip that year was a redonkulous .408, his highest after he started playing full seasons, but his career average BAbip was .359 - over 19 seasons! Not a statistical fluke: he just had the bat control to hit where the defenders weren't consistently.

But back to the first point, there's no excuse for media types not being able to use the numbers and educate or enlighten us civilians. This is what they're paid to do. If you understand IQ scores, you can understand OPS+ or ERA+. If you understand ERA, then you understand the significance of FIP/xFIP/SIERA. And so on.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

I like advanced stats, but I sometimes find that advanced stat "guys" stop being fans and take some of the fun out of being a fan.

That has to do with every fan's individual personality, not their interest in advanced stats. I find that fans who whine about clubhouse chemistry and leadership and overreact to every loss take some of the fun out of being a fan.