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Official #2 Pick Thread - Ford #7: Parker

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Assuming Embiid goes #1, who is your guy at #2?

Wiggins
188
53%
Parker
126
35%
Exum
33
9%
Vonleh
1
0%
Randle
8
2%
 
Total votes: 356

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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#181 » by Ruzious » Fri May 30, 2014 1:27 pm

Wise1 wrote:
LUKE23 wrote:It depends where you play Parker in the pros. If you play him at 4, he's going to be a face-up/dribble drive nightmare. If you play him at 3, he's sitting at around 6-9/240 with a good reach and even in the NBA not many SF are that size. Granted, the downfall here is that he's probably a defensive liability at both spots as well. That's why he's not going #1. But I honestly think he's going to be a major offensive mismatch. Either way, he will need to continue to develop his 3 point shot, as that is a needed weapon for any "elite" offensive player.

The reason you can argue Wiggins over him, is that Wiggins steps on the court being able to guard 2/3, and is not without offensive production on his side (the guy did average 20 ppg per 40 as a frosh). You are going to have to wait on his handle and shot consistency if you are expecting a NBA 20+ ppg guy, but the argument for taking him is maybe that it's easier to develop those skills than it is to gain the traits needed for Parker to improve defensively. And for me, NET impact is what it's about.

May be off here, but that's my take.


Very fair and balanced assessment. Given everything that you said here, I'd still go with Parker. I personally don't think handle is something that you improve on appreciably after playing HS and college ball. I think you're more likely to get better at things your innately good at or in an area that is tied to your physical or mental maturity. Jabari Parker could shoot 2000 three pointers a day in practice. I'd be willing to bet that he'd never come close to Ray Allen or Stephen Curry in that area. It's a special gift. In the same vein, not everyone can dribble that basketball like the top tier guys do. You can practice all you like, but its a gift imo.

So I think Parker will pan out as an average defender with Wiggins being an average ball handler.

There's one kind of important person that disagrees with you. I heard Ray Allen interviewed about a year ago, and he said his shooting isn't because he's gifted. It's from working harder than everyone else.

My preference is definitely Wiggins over Parker. I think you win with defense moreso than offense, and Wiggins' defensive ability easily exceeds Parker's. But there is a good thing with picking Parker. He and Giannis should compelment each other to offset each other's weaknesses. They both have good size. And with Giannis' athletic ability, he can defend pretty much any type of forward, so he can defend whoever's the better opposition forward, and Parker can defend the other forward. And Parker's ability to be a highly productive shooter and scorer offsets Giannis' so far questionable scoring abilities.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#182 » by Rockmaninoff » Fri May 30, 2014 1:30 pm

MrPerfect1 wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:
Bernman wrote: They haven't proven to possess a trained eye.


This type of thinking is over-rated because incompetent owners like Herb meddled.

Lasry has stared down Russian mafia figures playing poker. Edens has made billions while also climbing the Matterhorn. They both know hoops and the NBA. Again, this particular decision is so close, you don't need technical skill in trying to mine a gem, but rather analytical skill after looking at the huge blocks of knowledge that are already out there on these three prospects.

The only reason they didn't become John Hammond 30-years ago was because they didn't want to pay their dues for years and were likely also seeing it as a career where your advancement might be difficult if you weren't former jock. It wasn't because they weren't smart enough to make a reasoned decision re: Parker v. Wiggins v. Embiid


I don't agree with this logic.

-The Poker and climbing the Matterhorn definitely have nothing to do with assessing Basketball ability

-College Statistics help but much, much more goes in to judging and assessing how they will translate to the NBA. For example, I suspect not many college stats would indicate Westbrook would be an NBA star

-Some people can succeed in multiple fields. However, I think you are underestimating the difference in skillsets. There is nothing to suggest that a smart Finance person would be equally as successful in an NBA Front Office. Sterling was a brilliant real estate investor, sure didn't help him become an astute talent evaluator. Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones are brilliant marketers but their meddling has crippled their teams, etc


I think comparing the college statistics of freshman against their peers in key categories is quite predictive the majority of the time. But, you mentioned Westbrook, and he is a major outlier to that. Really, when gauging prospects what I think we want is for a very young player to enter the league with at least two of the following in comparison to both their peers and to their eventual contemporaries:

- Skill advantage
- Size advantage
- Athleticism advantage

By skill advantage I mean it's showing up in the stats. The player is getting to the line, shooting high 2pt percentage, getting defensive rebounds/steals/blocks without fouling at a high rate, positive a/to - in a dominant fashion.

Size is just measuring bigger than the average player that plays that particular role/style.

Athleticism is faster, quicker, more coordinated, more explosive.

Westbrook had the the size and the athleticism advantage. He also has intangibles that are difficult to predetermine, but were kind of obvious. I recall Kobe Bryant raving about Westbrook after a workout when Westbrook was at UCLA.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#183 » by JimmyTheKid » Fri May 30, 2014 1:36 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
Bernman wrote: They haven't proven to possess a trained eye.


This type of thinking is over-rated because incompetent owners like Herb meddled.

Lasry has stared down Russian mafia figures playing poker. Edens has made billions while also climbing the Matterhorn. They both know hoops and the NBA. Again, this particular decision is so close, you don't need technical skill in trying to mine a gem, but rather analytical skill after looking at the huge blocks of knowledge that are already out there on these three prospects.

The only reason they didn't become John Hammond 30-years ago was because they didn't want to pay their dues for years and were likely also seeing it as a career where your advancement might be difficult if you weren't former jock. It wasn't because they weren't smart enough to make a reasoned decision re: Parker v. Wiggins v. Embiid


Yes. Spot on.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#184 » by MrPerfect1 » Fri May 30, 2014 1:41 pm

Ruzious wrote:

There's one kind of important person that disagrees with you. I heard Ray Allen interviewed about a year ago, and he said his shooting isn't because he's gifted. It's from working harder than everyone else.


I think Allen is either delusional or just flat out wrong. I would bet that Allen was always the best shooter at every level he played, I know he was a great shooter while at Uconn. Yes, I am sure he works on his shot a lot, but so do tons of others. I think Allen either says or thinks that because in some ways one feels more deserving if they feel like they achieved what they have because they out worked everyone else vs simply being born luckier/with a huge advantage.

Allen's story would be more believable if he was a terrible shooter in college and then once drafted he devoted 20 hours/day to working on his shot and was able to transform it from awful to legendary. I would bet there are many players who practice shooting even more than him who simply either are bench players/not in the league because of far inferior natural talent.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#185 » by AussieBuck » Fri May 30, 2014 1:45 pm

I bet Ray's shot the ball non stop since the first time he tried. He's an obsessive personality. By the time he got to college he'd probably taken twice as many jumpers as the next best shooter.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#186 » by europa » Fri May 30, 2014 1:47 pm

Redd's an example of someone who became a better shooter in the NBA through hard work. I can't recall a time ever seeing Ray when he couldn't shoot well. Maybe when he was a little kid. But that guy has been a drop-dead shooter for as long as I can remember. Hard work ensured he would remain one for a very long time but he has the gift and always had it. I loved watching him at UConn.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#187 » by Badgerlander » Fri May 30, 2014 1:47 pm

So, a more aggressive Jeff Green? Is that enough?
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#188 » by On_Wisconsin » Fri May 30, 2014 1:52 pm

I'm really curious to see how Parker's post scoring translates.

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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#189 » by Newz » Fri May 30, 2014 1:53 pm

I don't see many similarities between Parker and Green at all.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#190 » by Licensed to Il » Fri May 30, 2014 1:54 pm

Anyone who thinks shooting or dribbling are gifts that some prodigies just start out with has a remedial understanding of basketball. Both come from learning the fundemental forms and movements, and then mastering them with practice. I am honestly suprised there is a single person in the world who thinks otherwise.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#191 » by europa » Fri May 30, 2014 1:54 pm

VooDoo7 wrote:So if Lasry and Edens are making this pick, are they, too, meddling owners? :reporter:


I think it's a fair question to ask. Personally, I'd prefer they stayed out of the final process. They're going to have input and they should. It is their team so I don't have a problem with that. But I would prefer if the "basketball people" make the personnel decisions. If they believe Hammond has the acumen to make the call then they should come out now and make it clear he's the GM going forward. If they don't trust him, dump him now and bring in someone who they do trust. There's plenty of time to get that person up to speed so they can make the final decision on draft night.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#192 » by europa » Fri May 30, 2014 1:56 pm

Villanoeyebrows wrote:Anyone who thinks shooting or dribbling are gifts that some prodigies jiat start out with has a remedial understanding of basketball. Both come from learning the fundemental forms and movements, and then mastering them with practice. I am honestly suprised there is a single person in the world who thinks otherwise.


All of those things are obviously vital. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. But I've played enough basketball and been around enough players in my life to know there are just some people who have the skill. They're born with it. Hard work fine tunes the skill but some people just have an ability to shoot. I've seen it countless times. I'm willing to bet if you went back and asked the people who knew Ray when he was a little kid they'd say he could always shoot. He clearly worked his ass off to become a great player but I'm willing to wager the ability to shoot well is something he's generally done his entire life.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#193 » by JayMKE » Fri May 30, 2014 2:01 pm

lol the Parker haters are getting desperate

Jeff Green? :rofl:
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#194 » by Licensed to Il » Fri May 30, 2014 2:06 pm

But Ray Allen himself frequently talks about the 1000s of hours he spent shooting ad a kid. And he has the most famous / obsessive pre game shooting routine in the league. Explain?

Of course some people have an inherent giftedness towards a skill, but what does that even really mean other than that they obsessively devote themselves to perfection.

The kids I know that were nicknamed "prodigy" or "the natural" spent 90% of their free time shooting or dribbling in an empty gym. Its earned and forged.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#195 » by europa » Fri May 30, 2014 2:07 pm

Again, I'm not dismissing the hard work. Nobody gets to the NBA, much less has a great career, without putting in the work.
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Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#196 » by JHSFIVE » Fri May 30, 2014 2:09 pm

Barring embiid somehow not being #1, the pick will be Jabari Parker and everyone pretty much knows it... I would also like to say that I'm very excited about it. Parker is going to bring some excitement to Milwaukee that hasn't been seen for a long time. I'm looking forward to watching him grow with Giannis and our other young pieces.

I believe that Parker will help establish a culture... Not gonna come out and say a winning culture but a "we're not backing down to anyone" culture vs the "we're prolly catching an L tonight, we're we going for dinner" culture that we've watched for the past few years.

I see Parker as bigger Grant Hill.

I see him making everyone around him better.... I see Larry Sanders getting on board and I see a toughness infused into this team with a young star in Parker and a soph Giannis as the faces of this franchise.

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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#197 » by unklchuk » Fri May 30, 2014 2:13 pm

europa wrote:
VooDoo7 wrote:So if Lasry and Edens are making this pick, are they, too, meddling owners? :reporter:


I think it's a fair question to ask. Personally, I'd prefer they stayed out of the final process. They're going to have input and they should. It is their team so I don't have a problem with that. But I would prefer if the "basketball people" make the personnel decisions. If they believe Hammond has the acumen to make the call then they should come out now and make it clear he's the GM going forward. If they don't trust him, dump him now and bring in someone who they do trust. There's plenty of time to get that person up to speed so they can make the final decision on draft night.


Assuming they have fair understandings with the current/outgoing front office, I don't fault them for handling it this way. Not for basketball reasons, but because of the PR that would attend a rapid swap in & out of executive staff. At best, they'd make a good pick and fans would think whew, guess there wasn't any downside. But average or worse results would generate chatter in media and fan venues that haste made waste.

Meddling owners? Not in my book. Herb Kohl made decisions that would baffle or sadden the smartest minds in hoops. The Dynamic Duo, I choose to believe, will make decisions with substantial input from the smartest minds in basketball. I don't think the new owners are any more than the public face of decisions others will help them make. Since the DD are on record as being committed to working with smart people, I think they are consulting with them now.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#198 » by machu46 » Fri May 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Villanoeyebrows wrote:But Ray Allen himself frequently talks about the 1000s of hours he spent shooting ad a kid. And he has the most famous / obsessive pre game shooting routine in the league. Explain?

Of course some people have an inherent giftedness towards a skill, but what does that even really mean other than that they obsessively devote themselves to perfection.

The kids I know that were nicknamed "prodigy" or "the natural" spent 90% of their free time shooting or dribbling in an empty gym. Its earned and forged.


I honestly have no idea if this is true, but didn't Steve Nash prefer soccer growing up over basketball? He probably didn't spend as much time shooting as a kid as Ray did, but he too was always a very good shooter.

The countless hours in the gym definitely helps a ton, but there's also a knack for just sort of being able to see how far away you are from the basket and being able to know based on that how much force you have to put behind your shot. It's gotta be some sort of hand-eye coordination kinda thing or something, depth perception, whatever. That's an innate skill that goes a long ways in helping to be a good shooter.

Growing up, I was always a good shooter. Shot around 40% from the high school 3 point line pretty much every year, but when I really started to put in the effort... going to the gym a couple hours before school started to just shoot and then doing it again after school, my 3 point percentage jumped up to 50%. So like one of the other posters said, shooting is something that can definitely be improved, but it's also something that you can be naturally good at.
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#199 » by SupremeHustle » Fri May 30, 2014 2:25 pm

europa wrote:Again, I'm not dismissing the hard work. Nobody gets to the NBA, much less has a great career, without putting in the work.


Maybe you're not "dismissing" the hard work, but you are marginalizing it. Is Ray Allen a gifted shooter because he worked/works hard at it, or because he was born that way?

Can you give us an example of a guy who was not born with the gift of being able to shoot a basketball, but is a great shooter now?
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Re: Official #2 Pick Thread pt. II - New Poll 

Post#200 » by SupremeHustle » Fri May 30, 2014 2:27 pm

machu46 wrote:
Villanoeyebrows wrote:But Ray Allen himself frequently talks about the 1000s of hours he spent shooting ad a kid. And he has the most famous / obsessive pre game shooting routine in the league. Explain?

Of course some people have an inherent giftedness towards a skill, but what does that even really mean other than that they obsessively devote themselves to perfection.

The kids I know that were nicknamed "prodigy" or "the natural" spent 90% of their free time shooting or dribbling in an empty gym. Its earned and forged.


I honestly have no idea if this is true, but didn't Steve Nash prefer soccer growing up over basketball? He probably didn't spend as much time shooting as a kid as Ray did, but he too was always a very good shooter.


The countless hours in the gym definitely helps a ton, but there's also a knack for just sort of being able to see how far away you are from the basket and being able to know based on that how much force you have to put behind your shot. It's gotta be some sort of hand-eye coordination kinda thing or something, depth perception, whatever. That's an innate skill that goes a long ways in helping to be a good shooter.

Growing up, I was always a good shooter. Shot around 40% from the high school 3 point line pretty much every year, but when I really started to put in the effort... going to the gym a couple hours before school started to just shoot and then doing it again after school, my 3 point percentage jumped up to 50%. So like one of the other posters said, shooting is something that can definitely be improved, but it's also something that you can be naturally good at.


Nash wasn't always a good shooter. He used to put up Jennings-like percentages. Even in college he wasn't a great shooter.
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