Kawhi Leonards Value?

[GreekAlex]

I would love to acquire Kawhi Leonard based on his age and skill set and I'm curious to see what the Spurs plans are moving forward. My questions are:

1. Considering normal improvement going into the last season of his rookie deal, what is he expecting via free agency?

2. Would the Spurs be open to a sign and trade for Monroe so he can be their heir to TD?

3. I was reading an article that listed the Spurs as a possible landing spot for Moose, is this just one writers opinion or could he be a fit in Popavichs system?

4. How good can he be on a team that doesn't have the culture, system and veteran presence established?


It's funny how before last season the overall consensus was Monroe had so much more value than Leonard and now it seems people believe the exact opposite.

[Joe Berry]

The Spurs need Leonard, they don't need Monroe. Thats the problem, unless Duncan, Pop and Manu retire if they win the title this season and the Spurs will do a rebuild, there is 0,0% chance of acquiring Kawhi regardless his or Monroe's trade value.

[GreekAlex]

The Spurs need Leonard, they don't need Monroe. Thats the problem, unless Duncan, Pop and Manu retire if they win the title this season and the Spurs will do a rebuild, there is 0,0% chance of acquiring Kawhi regardless his or Monroe's trade value.

How about going into his restricted free agency after next season, is there anything the Pistons could offer that they would not match?

[Q00]

It's funny how before last season the overall consensus was Monroe had so much more value than Leonard and now it seems people believe the exact opposite.

He still has way more value. Just because some fans on this site overrate Leonard doesn't mean he has more value.

Monroe is likely to get offered max money from several teams this summer. The most Leonard will get on his next deal is probably 8-9 mil/yr. Potential only lasts so long. When you continue to avg 12/6 every year, you simply don't have huge value, except maybe to your own team (if you play a key role for them).

He reminds me so much of Tayshaun its eery. Tay got like 11 mil/yr from the Pistons after the championship, but only because he was such a key piece. He wouldn't have been worth that much to other teams, and we saw just how good he really was without Chauncey/Sheed/Ben/Rip around him. He wasn't even worth the 7 mil/yr contract he got, when asked to be a main option.

Leonard is a solid player, but he's a 4th option on a contender, maybe 3rd option at best. Paying him to be anything more than that would be a mistake, just like it was with Prince.

All that said, I would trade Monroe for him because we need a SF like him more than we need a big man like Monroe. And I think the same can be said for them. Every old team needs a young Center to rebuild around more than a 12/6 SF. I wouldn't pay him more than 8-9 mil/yr though if we did acquire him, but even if we had to go over a little to keep him, that would still be better than paying 15 mil/yr for Monroe, and we wouldn't have to pay him until next year. Leaving us 20 mil to spend this year. Monroe for Leonard would definitely be something to pursue, and if SAS lose again in the Finals, they may decide to blow it up and start planning for the future, and see the opportunity to get a young Center like Monroe to rebuild around as too good to pass.

[Q00]

The Spurs need Leonard, they don't need Monroe. Thats the problem, unless Duncan, Pop and Manu retire if they win the title this season and the Spurs will do a rebuild, there is 0,0% chance of acquiring Kawhi regardless his or Monroe's trade value.

The Spurs could blow it up after this year, win or lose. Their key guys could retire if they win like you say, and if they lose again, management may feel the need to give it up and start over. Either way, Monroe would seem very appealing to an old team that has to start looking forward, win or lose.

Look at this way, if the Pistons got offered Al Jefferson for Tayshaun after the 2008 season, knowing they were near the end of their run and needed and a young Center to rebuild around, would they have turned that down? Heck no.

This is the same situation, if you ask me.

[GreekAlex]

The Spurs could blow it up after this year, win or lose. Their key guys could retire if they win like you say, and if they lose again, management may feel the need to give it up and start over. Either way, Monroe would seem very appealing to an old team that has to start looking forward, win or lose.

Look at this way, if the Pistons got offered Al Jefferson for Tayshaun after the 2008 season, knowing they were near the end of their run and needed and a young Center to rebuild around, would they have turned that down? Heck no.

This is the same situation, if you ask me.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. I think he's a solid piece at a good age and skill set to grow with Drummond. I'm not suggesting we build around him, I just think he makes sense because he doesn't need a ton of shots, is athletic, can play D and has a nice shot for a 3.

[Snakebites]

The Spurs could blow it up after this year, win or lose. Their key guys could retire if they win like you say, and if they lose again, management may feel the need to give it up and start over. Either way, Monroe would seem very appealing to an old team that has to start looking forward, win or lose.

Look at this way, if the Pistons got offered Al Jefferson for Tayshaun after the 2008 season, knowing they were near the end of their run and needed and a young Center to rebuild around, would they have turned that down? Heck no.

This is the same situation, if you ask me.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. I think he's a solid piece at a good age and skill set to grow with Drummond. I'm not suggesting we build around him, I just think he makes sense because he doesn't need a ton of shots, is athletic, can play D and has a nice shot for a 3.

All of these are reasons why the Spurs love him and won't deal him.

They have a list of things that are absolute and total non-starters in terms of trade negotiations. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if asking for Kawhi Leonard was on that list.

I won't go so far as to say its impossible that they'd entertain dealing him for a piece like Monroe, but I think its entirely unlikely.

If they were receptive I'd pull the trigger on such a deal, though.

[Q00]

The Spurs could blow it up after this year, win or lose. Their key guys could retire if they win like you say, and if they lose again, management may feel the need to give it up and start over. Either way, Monroe would seem very appealing to an old team that has to start looking forward, win or lose.

Look at this way, if the Pistons got offered Al Jefferson for Tayshaun after the 2008 season, knowing they were near the end of their run and needed and a young Center to rebuild around, would they have turned that down? Heck no.

This is the same situation, if you ask me.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. I think he's a solid piece at a good age and skill set to grow with Drummond. I'm not suggesting we build around him, I just think he makes sense because he doesn't need a ton of shots, is athletic, can play D and has a nice shot for a 3.

All of these are reasons why the Spurs love him and won't deal him.

They have a list of things that are absolute and total non-starters in terms of trade negotiations. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if asking for Kawhi Leonard was on that list.

I won't go so far as to say its impossible that they'd entertain dealing him for a piece like Monroe, but I think its entirely unlikely.

If they were receptive I'd pull the trigger on such a deal, though.

I'd like to see this list you speak of. It probably starts and ends with Duncan, if such list even exists.

Naming a SF as untouchable, who averages 12 points and 6 rebounds, would make them the laughingstock of the league.

They've entertained Tony Parker trades in the past. I highly doubt they value Leonard more than Parker. I realize they may have an unrealistic view of his value, being their only good young player, but I'd be very surprised if that view didn't change very quickly if they were offered an even better young player for him, like Monroe.

Again, Leonard is a solid young player, but lets not make him into something more than that, when he's never given any indication he is anything more than that.

Monroe has at least flashed games of greatness, even though he only averages out at 15-9. He's had many, many 20-10 games, even some 30-10 games and a triple double. Leonard averages 12-6 and has only scored 20 pts or more like 8 times in his career, and for a scoring position that is mediocre at best. He's never even scored 30. Monroe has 5 times and scored over 20 twenty times this year alone.

They aren't on the same level at all and the Spurs would be fools to turn that trade down, which they are not.

If we didn't have Drummond, I'd never even consider this trade, but since we do and don't need two Centers, and have a need at SF, its something that makes for both teams. And it will be interesting to watch because SVG said he's going to contact the Spurs front office to talk about his new job. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of a Monroe-Leonard trade discussed at that meeting.

[HotelVitale]

He reminds me so much of Tayshaun its eery. Tay got like 11 mil/yr from the Pistons after the championship, but only because he was such a key piece. He wouldn't have been worth that much to other teams, and we saw just how good he really was without Chauncey/Sheed/Ben/Rip around him. He wasn't even worth the 7 mil/yr contract he got, when asked to be a main option.

Leonard is a solid player, but he's a 4th option on a contender, maybe 3rd option at best. Paying him to be anything more than that would be a mistake, just like it was with Prince.

I see the point that Leonard is best as a 3rd/4th man, but he was significantly better as a role player this year than Tay ever was. Kawhi had a TS% of over 60% this year, while Tayshaun never managed more than 53% (he was at a very mediocre 51% for his career). That's a major major difference. Kawhi's also more of a game-changing defender because of his combo of size and athleticism (Tay was great for us on D but wouldn't have been a standout if not for the Pistons' system).

Kawhi is also currently the age that Tayshaun was his rookie year. It's safe to assume they'll be some more improvement; all of his numbers have improved from year to year (both his raw stats and efficiency). He's clearly got room to grow as a creator in particular.

[Snakebites]

That's kind of what I'm getting at. I think he's a solid piece at a good age and skill set to grow with Drummond. I'm not suggesting we build around him, I just think he makes sense because he doesn't need a ton of shots, is athletic, can play D and has a nice shot for a 3.

All of these are reasons why the Spurs love him and won't deal him.

They have a list of things that are absolute and total non-starters in terms of trade negotiations. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if asking for Kawhi Leonard was on that list.

I won't go so far as to say its impossible that they'd entertain dealing him for a piece like Monroe, but I think its entirely unlikely.

If they were receptive I'd pull the trigger on such a deal, though.

I'd like to see this list you speak of. It probably starts and ends with Duncan, if such list even exists.

Naming a SF as untouchable, who averages 12 points and 6 rebounds, would make them the laughingstock of the league.

They've entertained Tony Parker trades in the past. I highly doubt they value Leonard more than Parker. I realize they may have an unrealistic view of his value, being their only good young player, but I'd be very surprised if that view didn't change very quickly if they were offered an even better young player for him, like Monroe.

Again, Leonard is a solid young player, but lets not make him into something more than that, when he's never given any indication he is anything more than that.

Monroe has at least flashed games of greatness, even though he only averages out at 15-9. He's had many, many 20-10 games, even some 30-10 games and a triple double. Leonard averages 12-6 and has only scored 20 pts or more like 8 times in his career, and for a scoring position that is mediocre at best. He's never even scored 30. Monroe has 5 times and scored over 20 twenty times this year alone.

They aren't on the same level at all and the Spurs would be fools to turn that trade down, which they are not.

If we didn't have Drummond, I'd never even consider this trade, but since we do and don't need two Centers, and have a need at SF, its something that makes for both teams. And it will be interesting to watch because SVG said he's going to contact the Spurs front office to talk about his new job. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of a Monroe-Leonard trade discussed at that meeting.

He may be a non-starter (I have absolutely no idea, that was speculation on my part) because they value him more than another team is likely to offer.

No player outside of a select few are entirely untouchable, everyone knows that, but with Leonard I've always gotten the sense they place a special level of value on him.

Given your low opinion of Monroe I'm very surprised you even think he's worth enough to get Leonard.

As I said, I'd trade Monroe for Leonard.

[gusman]

Greg Monroe heir to Duncan. Haha. Monroe couldn't be heir to Corliss Williamson.


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[Q00]

All of these are reasons why the Spurs love him and won't deal him.

They have a list of things that are absolute and total non-starters in terms of trade negotiations. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if asking for Kawhi Leonard was on that list.

I won't go so far as to say its impossible that they'd entertain dealing him for a piece like Monroe, but I think its entirely unlikely.

If they were receptive I'd pull the trigger on such a deal, though.

I'd like to see this list you speak of. It probably starts and ends with Duncan, if such list even exists.

Naming a SF as untouchable, who averages 12 points and 6 rebounds, would make them the laughingstock of the league.

They've entertained Tony Parker trades in the past. I highly doubt they value Leonard more than Parker. I realize they may have an unrealistic view of his value, being their only good young player, but I'd be very surprised if that view didn't change very quickly if they were offered an even better young player for him, like Monroe.

Again, Leonard is a solid young player, but lets not make him into something more than that, when he's never given any indication he is anything more than that.

Monroe has at least flashed games of greatness, even though he only averages out at 15-9. He's had many, many 20-10 games, even some 30-10 games and a triple double. Leonard averages 12-6 and has only scored 20 pts or more like 8 times in his career, and for a scoring position that is mediocre at best. He's never even scored 30. Monroe has 5 times and scored over 20 twenty times this year alone.

They aren't on the same level at all and the Spurs would be fools to turn that trade down, which they are not.

If we didn't have Drummond, I'd never even consider this trade, but since we do and don't need two Centers, and have a need at SF, its something that makes for both teams. And it will be interesting to watch because SVG said he's going to contact the Spurs front office to talk about his new job. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of a Monroe-Leonard trade discussed at that meeting.

He may be a non-starter (I have absolutely no idea, that was speculation on my part) because they value him more than another team is likely to offer.

No player outside of a select few are entirely untouchable, everyone knows that, but with Leonard I've always gotten the sense they place a special level of value on him.

Given your low opinion of Monroe I'm very surprised you even think he's worth enough to get Leonard.

As I said, I'd trade Monroe for Leonard.

If I think Monroe is enough to get Leonard, despite my low opinion of Monroe, that's because I have an even lower opinion of Leonard.

I've never said Monroe wasn't valuable either. He obviously is because so many teams are said to be offering him max money. Its that I don't think he has the same value to us that he does to other teams, because we already have a Center that is better than him, while other teams don't even have one and could really use him.

Its kind of like a football team having two great QBs to me. You only need one, and there are a lot of teams that don't have one, so if you have a great backup he becomes more valuable to them than to you.

I also don't think Monroe is as valuable to an East team than he would be to a West team. I don't think his style fits East defensive bball. He's perfect for the West style though. Look at all the bigs in the West that are great but don't play any defense. In the East though, there aren't many bigs who succeed without playing defense.

As for Leonard, I agree that the Spurs value him highly, but in my opinion that's only because he's the only young asset they have. In other words they aren't trading him for another old vet. But if they were trading him for another young asset who is more productive, more valuable, and plays a more important position, then I see no reason why they would still value Leonard more.

[No-Man]

Spurs will re-sign Leonard before he hits the market to a reasanoble deal, I can see him accepting 40-44m$ for 4 yeards type of deal, more than that will be overpaying him anyway.

He is a superb role player, but he is not a franchise guy, if he is anything more than a 3rd option on your team you are not going to be very good.

[Q00]

He reminds me so much of Tayshaun its eery. Tay got like 11 mil/yr from the Pistons after the championship, but only because he was such a key piece. He wouldn't have been worth that much to other teams, and we saw just how good he really was without Chauncey/Sheed/Ben/Rip around him. He wasn't even worth the 7 mil/yr contract he got, when asked to be a main option.

Leonard is a solid player, but he's a 4th option on a contender, maybe 3rd option at best. Paying him to be anything more than that would be a mistake, just like it was with Prince.

I see the point that Leonard is best as a 3rd/4th man, but he was significantly better as a role player this year than Tay ever was. Kawhi had a TS% of over 60% this year, while Tayshaun never managed more than 53% (he was at a very mediocre 51% for his career). That's a major major difference. Kawhi's also more of a game-changing defender because of his combo of size and athleticism (Tay was great for us on D but wouldn't have been a standout if not for the Pistons' system).

Kawhi is also currently the age that Tayshaun was his rookie year. It's safe to assume they'll be some more improvement; all of his numbers have improved from year to year (both his raw stats and efficiency). He's clearly got room to grow as a creator in particular.

You can't really just look at TS% to determine which player is better than another though. Whether that is even a legit stat at all is yet to be determined itself.

I don't think Leonard is even anywhere near as good of a defender as Prince was in his prime. So I can't agree that he is more of a game changing defender. Prince was the best perimeter defender on arguably the best defensive team of all-time. The Spurs defense is nowhere near that level. They give up 97 ppg. Leonard is a good defender, but Prince was one of the best in the league in his day.

His offensive game was also much more diverse and polished. Prince could score from anywhere on the court. In the post, off the dribble, spotted up for the 3, from midrange etc.

My comparison of the two has more to do with both being the youngest player on an older contender, both playing the same role/position, both being 4th options, both of similar talent level, both kind of reserved personalities etc, not necessarily comparing their skillsets/games. Like Leonard though, people always said Tayshaun could be an all-star if he got a bigger role. It proved not true, and I think he was a better player than Leonard, so its hard to see Leonard becoming an all-star if he didn't. I think he's succeeding now because he's in his proper role as 4th option. If you take him out of that role I think he becomes worse, not better, just like happened to Tayshaun.

[tmorgan]

Like Leonard though, people always said Tayshaun could be an all-star if he got a bigger role. It proved not true, and I think he was a better player than Leonard, so its hard to see Leonard becoming an all-star if he didn't. I think he's succeeding now because he's in his proper role as 4th option. If you take him out of that role I think he becomes worse, not better, just like happened to Tayshaun.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's a helluva interesting theory. I think a lot of Spurs fans are expecting Kawhi to step up and become a 20 ppg scorer after Manu and Timmy retire. It'll be interesting.

[Q00]

Like Leonard though, people always said Tayshaun could be an all-star if he got a bigger role. It proved not true, and I think he was a better player than Leonard, so its hard to see Leonard becoming an all-star if he didn't. I think he's succeeding now because he's in his proper role as 4th option. If you take him out of that role I think he becomes worse, not better, just like happened to Tayshaun.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's a helluva interesting theory. I think a lot of Spurs fans are expecting Kawhi to step up and become a 20 ppg scorer after Manu and Timmy retire. It'll be interesting.

To expect any player to one day average 20 per game, when they've only scored 20 in a game 8 times in their career, is pretty unrealistic to me.

I get it though. When you have an old team, and only have one good young player, you want to believe he's going to be your all-star that you rebuild around. Many Pistons fans did the same with Tayshaun. That's another reason why I see such similarities between the two situations.

[Snakebites]

You can't really just look at TS% to determine which player is better than another though. Whether that is even a legit stat at all is yet to be determined itself.

Its the best measure of offensive efficiency we have.

It may not be kind to some of the players you like, but it's definitely a very telling statistic.

Its not a be all/end all, but no statistic is.

[ImHeisenberg]

I get it though. When you have an old team, and only have one good young player, you want to believe he's going to be your all-star that you rebuild around. Many Pistons fans did the same with Tayshaun. That's another reason why I see such similarities between the two situations.

I don't know about Prince, but a lot of Pistons fans put a ton of faith in Stuckey, myself included. That obviously never came to fruition- when Stuckey was handed the keys to the kingdom he never became more than 'slightly above average'.

As for Leonard- I can't believe people are interested in this debate again. The Spurs are going to keep him, they aren't going to gauge his value, and will likely keep him in a Spurs uniform until he hangs up his sneakers.

[ImHeisenberg]

Its not a be all/end all, but no statistic is.

Indeed. Every statistic needs to be examined in the proper context. But, they shouldn't be completely dismissed.

[Q00]

You can't really just look at TS% to determine which player is better than another though. Whether that is even a legit stat at all is yet to be determined itself.

Its the best measure of offensive efficiency we have.

It may not be kind to some of the players you like, but it's definitely a very telling statistic.

Its not a be all/end all, but no statistic is.

Watching players play is the best measure of offensive efficiency we have. I can tell a lot more about who's more efficient by watching than by looking at TS%. Which doesn't account for things like offensive rebounding, how good a player is at setting screens, how good he is at playing off a screen set for him, reading the defense and making the extra pass, moving without the ball, making multiple effort cuts to the rim even when you aren't getting the ball etc. All the little things that make an offense efficient. When you factor all that in, TS% is really not very telling at all.

There's a lot more to offense than just FG% and FT%. The more things a player does to positively impact the offense when he's on the court, the more efficient he is to the offense. That's how you judge offensive efficieny, and there is really no stat that accounts for all of that (which I'm aware of). It probably wouldn't even be very accurate if there were one.

I'm not saying Leonard isn't good at all those things too, but I remember Tayshaun to be better overall. Of course, part of my memory is of him as a seasoned vet, and vets are generally more efficient by nature, but Leonard still has a ways to go to get to Prince's level, in my opinion, and whether he gets there at all is yet to be seen.