The Right time to make a BIG Move

[PandaKidd]

its not as clear as you guys are making it. You are sticking your head in the sand if you dont think CLE and KI agent are already hitting teams up seeing if they would trade for him. CLE will want best value, KI will want best destination/money.

They will intersect somewhere. Because NO TEAM will trade assets to CLE for KI unless KI is already onboard saying I WILL SIGN AN EXTENSION the second i step off the plane

Actually......it is that clear you just aren't trying to hear it.

I won't bog you down with the history of why restricted (the definition is right there in the word) free agency exists in the first place but it's specifically to give teams the advantage in keeping their young stars. This helps small markets and poor locales specifically and creates an air of parody in the NBA otherwise every kid out there would run to a big market or warm weather city rather than stay any amount of years with the team that drafted them.

Did you read that? It gives the team the advantage.

Kyrie's only option is that he will play the long game and wait out Cleveland or whatever team he may be on.

That's it. That's his entire leverage, foregoing money now in the hopes that it is available 2 years later.

An NBA team's leverage does not end at the moment a player decides to not take the extension, it doesn't even necessarily end at the moment said player accepts his QO. Cleveland knows this, Kyrie knows this, everyone knows this, why don't you?

Nothing in your post explains the issue Im talking about.

Cleveland has already stated it would TRADE KI if he doesnt sign the extension.

If that happens, what is CLE trading him for? Assets right? They will trade him to the highest Bidder. Who do you think that is?

Off the top of my head? Lakers.

You dont think Lakers would offer KI a max contract the second they traded for him?

KI is going to get his money, its literally the EXACT same situation as Harden. Any team who trades assets for him, is going to ask him about signing an extension.

This is the WHOLE REASON behind the D12 saga, Melo if he walks, etc. Teams are faced with watching guys leave for NOTHING, (something CLE had done to them) , or trading to gain assets before FA.

KI DOESNT sign that Max Contract, CLE IS TRADING HIM. Period. Wherever he ends up, will offer him the SAME contract (minus the year).

Look at the teams that have a shot at landing him, I guarantee his agent is talking to every organization right now seeing what their interest is.

[PandaKidd]

That's it. That's his entire leverage, foregoing money now in the hopes that it is available 2 years later.

Why 2 years later?

Houston could have rode Harden for a year, but they VOLUNTARILY offered him the MAX contract. Why do you think that is?

Because getting a Superstar at 4 years is worth more to a team than 1 year. You think Houston would have had a chance to sign harden had they said "you know what James, we are going to just ride this out and be cheap and see what happens".

KI will decline the MC (Max Contract)
CLE will seek out a trade partner, said trade partner will say "LETS TALK TO KI AND SEE IF HES WILLING TO SIGN LONG TERM HERE"

How do you guys NOT see this?

[MaceCase]

Cleveland has already stated it would TRADE KI if he doesnt sign the extension.

No they haven't. What we have is people running away with a statement that Dan Gilbert, a man prone to putting his foot in his own mouth, made and are taking it for the letter of the law. The rest of your post......is headache inducing. Melo, Dwight etc......are irrelevant to the conversation. They were UNrestricted free agents. Harden is irrelevant to the conversation because that was a case where OKC did not want to pay him and thus actually faced the self-induced situation where they may lose him. They traded him to Houston because that represented the only other team that both wanted to pay him and thus offered desirable assets in line with what a player paid like that should garner.

That's it. That's his entire leverage, foregoing money now in the hopes that it is available 2 years later.

Why 2 years later?

Houston could have rode Harden for a year, but they VOLUNTARILY offered him the MAX contract. Why do you think that is?

Why 2 years later? ........Because he has 1 year left on his rookie contract......
And if he doesn't want to sign a contract with Cleveland or fears a contract he signs with another team will be matched at the end of that 1 year then he must sign his 1 year qualifying option to become an unrestricted free agent at the end of it.

1+1= 2 years until he is voluntarily free from Cleveland.

Additionally on Houston, they could have easily offered Harden the same deal at the end of the year when he hit free agency but it seems entirely asinine that they would give up assets to acquire a player only to now let him sign the same deal in free agency with another team and match it. Oh BTW, that 5th year advantage that they had over other teams? It was unguaranteed if he flopped protecting Houston. If he didn't flop it puts them on good terms when it comes time to resign him at the end of the 5th year where they don't have the ability to forcibly retain him.

Look to the handling of Kevin Love's contract by Minnesota as to why it's a good idea to get into good standing with a player beforehand. They flat out told him he wasn't worth that 5th year, didn't put guarantees or options on it just said flatly that no, you're not getting it. Now he's actually making trade demands now that he has only 1 year left on his deal rather than running through back channels like people claim Kyrie is.

[PandaKidd]

Im not arguing to argue, Please explain IN DETAIL why for the following:

Because he has 1 year left on his rookie contract......
And if he doesn't want to sign a contract with Cleveland

KI Current Contract
$7,459,924 14/15
$9,697,901 15/16 QO

Under these rules KI can play out his current contract and get a QO in 15/16 , play for 1 year and become a URFA.

OR

He can sign a MAX CONTRACT now, but it WONT kick in until 15/16 anyway:

which would kick in during the 2015-16 season and pay him around $90 million through 2019-20.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whe ... o-the-max/

OR

He can turn down the Max Contract Extension and carry out his current contract as mentioned above. IF he turns it down, CLEVELAND has NO REASON to keep him. In WHAT scenario do you believe that CLE would keep KI after he turns down 90 million ?

or fears a contract he signs with another team will be matched at the end of that 1 year then he must sign his 1 year qualifying option to become an unrestricted free agent at the end of it.

??
If he TURNS DOWN CLE Max Extension, there is no other team? there is no QO. Cleveland will trade him (hypothetically) and he can CHOOSE to sign an extension there or not. Did Harden have to submit to a QO from any other team when Houston offered him an extension? NO.

My point, CLE offers MC, KI turns it down, CLE trades him. KI is now free to sign an extension with whoever that new team is. THERE IS NO QO right?

1+1= 2 years until he is voluntarily free from Cleveland.

Only if he stays in CLE which would be STUPID if he turns down the extension and CLE kept him.

Additionally on Houston, they could have easily offered Harden the same deal at the end of the year when he hit free agency but it seems entirely asinine that they would give up assets to acquire a player only to now let him sign the same deal in free agency with another team and match it.

If KI (HARDEN) declines CLE(OKC) offer, CLE(OKC) trades KI (HARDEN) to another team for assets. Then KI (HARDEN) can sign an extension with the new team (HOUSTON).

OR not, and walk at the end of the current contract.

Look to the handling of Kevin Love's contract by Minnesota as to why it's a good idea to get into good standing with a player beforehand. They flat out told him he wasn't worth that 5th year, didn't put guarantees or options on it just said flatly that no, you're not getting it. Now he's actually making trade demands now that he has only 1 year left on his deal rather than running through back channels like people claim Kyrie is.

[/quote]

Love has a termination option IIRC?

KI could tell CLE max extension with a player termination in the 5th year or whatever, but if hes adamant he wants out, why sign anything.

you guys are acting like hes leaving 85 million on the table, hes not, ANY TEAM that trades for him is offering him the EXACT MAX CONTRACT they can. He is GOING to get paid.

[MaceCase]

Im not arguing to argue, Please explain IN DETAIL why for the following:

Because he has 1 year left on his rookie contract......
And if he doesn't want to sign a contract with Cleveland

KI Current Contract
$7,459,924 14/15
$9,697,901 15/16 QO

Under these rules KI can play out his current contract and get a QO in 15/16 , play for 1 year and become a URFA.

OR

He can sign a MAX CONTRACT now, but it WONT kick in until 15/16 anyway:

which would kick in during the 2015-16 season and pay him around $90 million through 2019-20.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whe ... o-the-max/

Yea.......do you get that if he signs a max extension now it means that he has 5 mostly guaranteed years......after his rookie deal is done.....right now.....today.

So what is larger for his financial security, 5+1 today or waiting after 1+1 to get 4?

Is this some sort of retort because everyone is aware of this

OR

He can turn down the Max Contract Extension and carry out his current contract as mentioned above. IF he turns it down, CLEVELAND has NO REASON to keep him. In WHAT scenario do you believe that CLE would keep KI after he turns down 90 million ?

The fact that they still hold RFA rights on him and thus don't fear losing him for at minimum 2 years, duh.

or fears a contract he signs with another team will be matched at the end of that 1 year then he must sign his 1 year qualifying option to become an unrestricted free agent at the end of it.

??
If he TURNS DOWN CLE Max Extension, there is no other team? there is no QO. Cleveland will trade him (hypothetically) and he can CHOOSE to sign an extension there or not. Did Harden have to submit to a QO from any other team when Houston offered him an extension? NO.

My point, CLE offers MC, KI turns it down, CLE trades him. KI is now free to sign an extension with whoever that new team is. THERE IS NO QO right?

Do you know wtf a QO is? Because it's becoming painfully obvious that you don't. The qualifying offer is a caphold that a team submits at the end of a rookie contract in order to allow them the right of first refusal should their player negotiate a new deal with another team. If Kyrie turns down the extension then at the end of his contract Cleveland can submit the QO in order to maintain his rights.

Do you see how this is a progression? How it's a two step process? How the day doesn't end at him turning down an extension?

The QO is what allows them to match another team's contract offer. Reference Smith, Josh and Teague, Jeffrey if this is still escaping you.

Why would Harden have a QO if he was extended before he reached the end of his rookie contract. Now if he wasn't then *gasp* he likely would have.

1+1= 2 years until he is voluntarily free from Cleveland.

Only if he stays in CLE which would be STUPID if he turns down the extension and CLE kept him.

Uhm, the point here is that Cleveland still has the option to control him for 2+ years.........in case the point of this debate has flown over your head, that's their leverage. Him turning down the money is not the end of his time in Cleveland unless they decide it is. They control him for a minimum of 2 years past when the extension was offered.........that's their leverage.

Additionally on Houston, they could have easily offered Harden the same deal at the end of the year when he hit free agency but it seems entirely asinine that they would give up assets to acquire a player only to now let him sign the same deal in free agency with another team and match it.

If KI (HARDEN) declines CLE(OKC) offer, CLE(OKC) trades KI (HARDEN) to another team for assets. Then KI (HARDEN) can sign an extension with the new team (HOUSTON).

OR not, and walk at the end of the current contract.

.........The "or not" is the tricky part of this whole ordeal. They can't walk at the end of their current contract unless the team lets them. The only way they can control their own fate is if they just go ahead and accept the QO at the end of their current deal, play out the year and become unrestricted. CBA 101 here, folks.

Look to the handling of Kevin Love's contract by Minnesota as to why it's a good idea to get into good standing with a player beforehand. They flat out told him he wasn't worth that 5th year, didn't put guarantees or options on it just said flatly that no, you're not getting it. Now he's actually making trade demands now that he has only 1 year left on his deal rather than running through back channels like people claim Kyrie is.

Love has a termination option IIRC?

KI could tell CLE max extension with a player termination in the 5th year or whatever, but if hes adamant he wants out, why sign anything.

you guys are acting like hes leaving 85 million on the table, hes not, ANY TEAM that trades for him is offering him the EXACT MAX CONTRACT they can. He is GOING to get paid.

sigh
Kevin Love was in direct reference to you continuously bringing up Harden. Houston gave him the full 5 years demonstrating that they value him and think he's worth that money, something that OKC didn't think. This sets it up that when 5 years are over Harden may be inclined to resign again for another 5 or more years because Houston demonstrated that they valued him. You get that the NBA operates like that, right? Teams don't want to lose their stars, ever.

This is not the case for Love though, by refusing to offer him that 5th year Minnesota essentially said that they don't value him that highly. That created bad blood and tension right then and there between Love and the Minnesota front office and he negotiated an early opt out in response. 3 years later that team still hasn't gotten their **** together and, of course, they isn't any love (get it?) between them to begin with because of his original contract situation.

Back to Kyrie,

What

you

still

don't

get

is why does Cleveland trade him knowing that they are in a position of getting him to accept that guaranteed money now or wait 2 whole years to attempt to get it elsewhere?

[PandaKidd]

we will just agree to disagree. I still have problems with what you are saying. Specifically with your response to this

If KI (HARDEN) declines CLE(OKC) offer, CLE(OKC) trades KI (HARDEN) to another team for assets. Then KI (HARDEN) can sign an extension with the new team (HOUSTON).

OR not, and walk at the end of the current contract.

Im assuming CLE will trade him if he turns down 90 million, you are assuming they wont because you said this:

The fact that they still hold RFA rights on him and thus don't fear losing him for at minimum 2 years, duh.

I just disagree, they will trade him if he doesnt sign THIS year to that max deal.

We also disagree because I believe KI is giving up 1 year, not 5. If he declines CLE MC, he is traded, and he will sign an extension where he lands anyway.

im not the only one that feels this way:
http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf ... dly_2.html

If youre KI and your dead set on NOT staying in CLE, you can force your way out NOW, and sign an extension somewhere else. period.

he can do EXACTLY what Harden did.

[azuresou1]

And what if Kyrie pulls a Jay Williams and can never walk again? Is he still GOING to get paid then? No, he isn't.

Furthermore, you're using your presumptions (Kyrie wants to get out of Cleveland at the expense of financial security; Cleveland won't want to keep Kyrie if he declines an extension; Cleveland doesn't want to pay Kyrie) to support your presumptions. It's weak logic.

Could Kyrie decline to sign his extension, play out his QO in a season where NO ONE offers him a contract, and then two seasons from now sign a max contract? Sure. But why would he do that?

[azuresou1]

Panda sorry it's clear that you need to read up more on the CBA and understand that QO actually is.

Kyrie would be leaving $85M on the table if he chooses not to extend. He would be choosing NOT to take that money in order to maintain his 'flexibility' of team. That is the VERY DEFINITION of leaving money on the table.

[PandaKidd]

Panda sorry it's clear that you need to read up more on the CBA and understand that QO actually is.

Kyrie would be leaving $85M on the table if he chooses not to extend. He would be choosing NOT to take that money in order to maintain his 'flexibility' of team. That is the VERY DEFINITION of leaving money on the table.

Jesus, ANSWER ME THIS, assume I know NOTHING about the CBA.

DID JAMES HARDEN LEAVE MONEY ON THE TABLE WHEN HE TURNED DOWN OKC AND WAS TRADED TO HOUSTON WHERE HE SIGNED AN EXTENSION?

WHY WOULD KI LEAVE ANYTHING ON THE TABLE IF HE SAYS NO TO CLE, IS TRADED, THEN SIGNS WITH WHO HE IS TRADED TO.

WHY WHY WHY WOULD HE LEAVE ANYTHING ON THE TABLE?

I cant make it anymore cut and dry than that. Explain, IN DETAIL . I really dont understand.

[PandaKidd]

Panda sorry it's clear that you need to read up more on the CBA and understand that QO actually is.

Kyrie would be leaving $85M on the table if he chooses not to extend. He would be choosing NOT to take that money in order to maintain his 'flexibility' of team. That is the VERY DEFINITION of leaving money on the table.

If he says NO and CLE DOESNT Trade im, then YES youre 100000% right

[MaceCase]

Panda sorry it's clear that you need to read up more on the CBA and understand that QO actually is.

Kyrie would be leaving $85M on the table if he chooses not to extend. He would be choosing NOT to take that money in order to maintain his 'flexibility' of team. That is the VERY DEFINITION of leaving money on the table.

Jesus, ANSWER ME THIS, assume I know NOTHING about the CBA.

DID JAMES HARDEN LEAVE MONEY ON THE TABLE WHEN HE TURNED DOWN OKC AND WAS TRADED TO HOUSTON WHERE HE SIGNED AN EXTENSION?

WHY WOULD KI LEAVE ANYTHING ON THE TABLE IF HE SAYS NO TO CLE, IS TRADED, THEN SIGNS WITH WHO HE IS TRADED TO.

WHY WHY WHY WOULD HE LEAVE ANYTHING ON THE TABLE?

I cant make it anymore cut and dry than that. Explain, IN DETAIL . I really dont understand.

Oh boy........

Do you recognize that OKC offered Harden less money thus why he turned it down. How much more clear cut do you need that to be. It's not a comparison at all to Kyrie.

The Max that OKC could offer Harden was 4 years 60 million. They offered him 54 million instead and told him to take it or leave it. He said he'd leave it and they promptly traded him to a team that could offer him not only the full 4/60 but a 5 year 80 million contract because they had no other 5th year designated players like OKC who used it on Westbrook already.

This is what you don't get. Harden was traded because OKC did not want to pay him. It made no sense for them to hold onto a player that they decided they couldn't afford thus the reason why they moved him for cheaper players. That is the detail that you are harping on when it has absolutely zero relevance to Kyrie.

Cleveland not only wants to pay Kyrie but can pay Kyrie. Your entire argument is that you believe that by Kyrie simply saying no that all of Cleveland's leverage goes out the window when the fact is

1) They will have from July 1- October 31st to convince him to take the extension

2) They will have from October 31st to February 20th to gauge whether he changed his mind before the trade deadline

3) They will have April-July to gauge if he is willing to take the extension again

4) Upon him saying he doesn't want the extension for the 4th time they will tell him

A) Go find a sign and trade that we like of which you will only be eligible for less than we could extend you.

B) Be prepared for us to match whatever contract you end up with which will assuredly be less than we offered.


That is 4 steps before we get to step 5: Kyrie decides to take the QO and control his destiny.

This is not rocket science here. If all it took was a guy saying no and a front office wouldn't even attempt to call his bluff then what exactly is the entire purpose of restricted free agency? You are foolishly arguing against the very basis for its existence yet think you are in some position where everything is obvious to you but no one else.



Let me dumb it down as best as I can for you, don't worry about Kyrie getting his money if he's traded:

Why does Cleveland trade Kyrie when they have leverage?

[PandaKidd]

Ok I understand all that. Thank you for the clarification, but

Assume KI is dumb, assume he says NO to CLE. Then Assume CLE trades him. Is he eligible to sign another contract with his new team??

If so, thats all i needed to hear. Thanks

[MaceCase]

Ok I understand all that. Thank you for the clarification, but

Assume KI is dumb, assume he says NO to CLE. Then Assume CLE trades him. Is he eligible to sign another contract with his new team??

If so, thats all i needed to hear. Thanks

Of course. If you claim you understood the rest then that most basic tenet should have been obvious.

It's the reason he'd say no, because he thinks he can get the money elsewhere.

It's the reason why Cleveland will say no to his no, because they would push to see just how committed he is to getting that money or being elsewhere.

[PandaKidd]

Why are news outlets reporting they will trade him if he turns down the extension? Has to be some truth in that right?



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[azuresou1]

News outlets report a lot of dumb things that are usually false, especially considering this is coming from Chad Ford.

Do you not remember all the 'rumors' he made about the Hawks a few years ago?

[MaceCase]

Always have to check the source. If 15 people parrot the same report made by one guy then it's not exactly 15 people individually confirming what the original guy said is true. It is because the proliferation of rumors occur so easily that these "journalists" feel compelled to create as many fake or poorly reasoned ones without any true source because web hits are greater than being credible. If they are wrong, so what, it just gets lost in the ether of all the other rumors they invent.

[PandaKidd]

Getting topic back on track

Melo rumors popping up now with heat being the potential landing spot. In all honesty I think its all just rumors and fluff. Can't see him taking a paycut and the heat big 3 taking a pay cut.



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[Jamaaliver]

Getting topic back on track

Melo rumors popping up now with heat being the potential landing spot. In all honesty I think its all just rumors and fluff. Can't see him taking a paycut and the heat big 3 taking a pay cut.



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If Melo wants to contend, he signs for a modest amount of money to play with Da Bulls.

Melo, Rose and Joakim can at least give MIA a run for their money. Especially with Thibs as coach.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Getting topic back on track

Melo rumors popping up now with heat being the potential landing spot. In all honesty I think its all just rumors and fluff. Can't see him taking a paycut and the heat big 3 taking a pay cut.



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If Melo wants to contend, he signs for a modest amount of money to play with Da Bulls.

Melo, Rose and Joakim can at least give MIA a run for their money. Especially with Thibs as coach.

If melo wants to win, his best option is miami and then atlanta. Melo has dealt with amare's knees for the past 3 seasons and I would be surprised if he was willing to spend the next 3-5 years depending on rose's knees.

A starting 5 of teague/korver/melo/milsap/horford is the most well rounded starting 5 in the league. We would immediately be on the top level of the east with miami and I think we would have a more than 50% chance of beating them with their current roster.

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[Yungsta404]

besides miami his best options to win are the bulls and rockets.

The bulls won 48 games with the 29th ranked offense and were still somehow were able to maintain the 2nd best defense in the league with guys like Dj Augustin, Boozer, and mike dunleavy getting heavy mins.