Rather have Leonard than Hill now?

[Edub]

Curious to how the team would be now if we hadn't traded Leonard on draft day.

"Leonard was drafted 15th overall in the 2011 NBA Draft by the Indiana Pacers but was traded to the San Antonio Spurs shortly thereafter, along with the rights to Erazem Lorbek and the 42nd overall pick Davis Bertans in exchange for George Hill."

[Moooose]

Well it was a gamble on both parties. At that time, everyone thought the Pacers got the better end with an up and coming player in George Hill who has a good potential considering he played under Pop on a system that works.

The Spurs could be thinking of Leonard's potential to be a solid wing defender and it is paying off. And in today's league, every team needs a wing defender. I think Kawhi will not have the same impact as he is having now had he ended up on a different team though. The Spurs organization are the best evaluators of talent in the league, IMHO.

[ChokeFasncists]

If the trade wasn't made the Pacers probably wouldn't be no.1 in the East?

[no1knicksfan]

If the trade wasn't made the Pacers probably wouldn't be no.1 in the East?

George Hill is the 20th best starting point guard or something? Kawhi is already a top 10 small forward at the age of 22, and he actually can defend Lebron and DWade. I don't know how you can look at Hill and Kawhi's production vs. the Heat this playoff and not say this trade is a epic failure in hindsight, especially after losing to the same Heat team for 3 consecutive years. Kawhi is exactly the kind of player that could help Pacers beat the Heat. On the other hand Hill is very replaceable. Bird **** it up. Face it.

[ThePacer31]

Now? Of course! Who wouldn't? Even if we have our future SF in George.

Back then? It was a "win now" mode; therefore, Bird pulled the trigger because G. Hill was obviously more prepared than Leonard. We wouldn't have made it deep in the playoffs with Leonard the past two years.

Would Kawahi have developed as fast in Indy as he did in San Antonio? No one knows.

Having Kawahi on our team over G. HIll improves us significantly but unless we need a legit Point Guard (offense) & a bench we're still not contenders. With or without Kawahi.

[no1knicksfan]

Now? Of course! Who wouldn't? Even if we have our future SF in George.

Back then? It was a "win now" mode; therefore, Bird pulled the trigger because G. Hill was obviously more prepared than Leonard. We wouldn't have made it deep in the playoffs with Leonard the past two years.

Would Kawahi have developed as fast in Indy as he did in San Antonio? No one knows.

Having Kawahi on our team over G. HIll improves us significantly but unless we need a legit Point Guard (offense) & a bench we're still not contenders. With or without Kawahi.

The thing is Hill is not even good. He only ranked #42 in PER among the point guards that played substantial minutes in this regular season. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... osition/pg

Considering the Pacers pay him 8 million a year, his value is very low actually. Nowadays the PG position is so deep that it would be just dumb to give away any asset for a below average starting point guard. You can often find a Kendall Marshall or Patrick Beverly from FA for free. In fact, Patty Mills, the 'free' replacement the Spurs found for George Hill, was way more efficient statistically in comparison with Hill in this regular season.

[pacers33granger]

It's easy in hindsight to look back and say we should have kept Leonard. We should have taken Jrue Holiday or Ty Lawson instead of Tyler Hasbrough too.

However, it was a good trade at the time. A mid first round pick in what was an average draft is more than fine compensation for a starting PG (yeah he was on the low end this year, but that wasn't the case the last two years). Who knows if we would have taken Leonard and not someone else anyways.

[SmashMouthRod]

If the trade wasn't made the Pacers probably wouldn't be no.1 in the East?

George Hill is the 20th best starting point guard or something? Kawhi is already a top 10 small forward at the age of 22, and he actually can defend Lebron and DWade. I don't know how you can look at Hill and Kawhi's production vs. the Heat this playoff and not say this trade is a epic failure in hindsight, especially after losing to the same Heat team for 3 consecutive years. Kawhi is exactly the kind of player that could help Pacers beat the Heat. On the other hand Hill is very replaceable. Bird **** it up. Face it.

I admit as a Pacer Fan I would rather have Leonard than Hill. I was one of the fans who didnt agree with him being paid 8 mill per when he got the contract. I also disagreed with a few of the last picks and free agency acquisitions. But every move wont work out. As great as San Antonio is they have draft picks and acquisitions that dont work out too. They just mask it with so many solid moves. I can see that your a knick fan; youre very familiar with a team making bone head moves in personnel; front office and coaching.

[Scoot McGroot]

Theoretically, sure. Though, you'd only have developed either Kawhi OR Lance, not both. Lance wasn't developing as a PG and was stagnant until he as moved to the wing. I'd take Kawhi over Lance, but it wouldn't be an "exponential addition"; more a "marginal addition".


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[ChokeFasncists]

If the trade wasn't made the Pacers probably wouldn't be no.1 in the East?

George Hill is the 20th best starting point guard or something? Kawhi is already a top 10 small forward at the age of 22, and he actually can defend Lebron and DWade. I don't know how you can look at Hill and Kawhi's production vs. the Heat this playoff and not say this trade is a epic failure in hindsight, especially after losing to the same Heat team for 3 consecutive years. Kawhi is exactly the kind of player that could help Pacers beat the Heat. On the other hand Hill is very replaceable. Bird **** it up. Face it.

You're right, but what I was saying, is that pre-Hill, the Pacers weren't a elite team in the eastern conference and post-Hill they are. It's certainly not just because of Hill, but his championship contending experience with a good program had something to do with the Pacers improving their overall winning culture? If they want to get better, they can't have Hill starting, but it wasn't easy to get from a fringe playoff team to be a top team and IMO Hill helped in that regard.

[basketballwacko2]

If the trade wasn't made the Pacers probably wouldn't be no.1 in the East?

George Hill is the 20th best starting point guard or something? Kawhi is already a top 10 small forward at the age of 22, and he actually can defend Lebron and DWade. I don't know how you can look at Hill and Kawhi's production vs. the Heat this playoff and not say this trade is a epic failure in hindsight, especially after losing to the same Heat team for 3 consecutive years. Kawhi is exactly the kind of player that could help Pacers beat the Heat. On the other hand Hill is very replaceable. Bird **** it up. Face it.

Wow a noob! Look guys it's a NOOB!!

Face it if you are using PER to determine the rankings that's not a great metric. If I could trade back right now yeah I would but the Pacers were in great need of a Point Gaurd. We had Granger and Paul George at SF. We traded the rights to a guy who'd slipped from the top 8 to #15. Now I wish we could have sent Granger to the Spurs for Hill, or better yet if we'd drafted Ty Lawson or Jeff Teague in 2009 instead of Tyler Hansbrough, but you have to take the good with the bad. 2010 brought us PG and Lance so it kinda evens out.


Now no1Knicksfan how about that Carmelo Anthony Trade? Or the signing of Amare. Maybe the Knicks should have "Amnestied" Amare and Kept Billups? Humm?

[Boneman2]

If the trade wasn't made the Pacers probably wouldn't be no.1 in the East?

George Hill is the 20th best starting point guard or something? Kawhi is already a top 10 small forward at the age of 22, and he actually can defend Lebron and DWade. I don't know how you can look at Hill and Kawhi's production vs. the Heat this playoff and not say this trade is a epic failure in hindsight, especially after losing to the same Heat team for 3 consecutive years. Kawhi is exactly the kind of player that could help Pacers beat the Heat. On the other hand Hill is very replaceable. Bird **** it up. Face it.

You're right, but what I was saying, is that pre-Hill, the Pacers weren't a elite team in the eastern conference and post-Hill they are. It's certainly not just because of Hill, but his championship contending experience with a good program had something to do with the Pacers improving their overall winning culture? If they want to get better, they can't have Hill starting, but it wasn't easy to get from a fringe playoff team to be a top team and IMO Hill helped in that regard.

David West's arrival put Indy over the top, not Hill's. The entire team admitted this in a post game interview they gave awhile back.

As far as the hindsight theory, didnt need it to know that George was not a Pg. He wasn't at Broad Ripple or IUPUI, and he really wasn't asked to carry the load in SA, with exception to backing up Parker for 10-12 per.

George has admitted on several occasions that he is not a Pg., yet he is tasked with playing to his weaknesses and it shows. He clearly lacks innate abilities required to play the position.

The messed up part about it is that G.Hill was expiring, meaning we could have easily had both if we wanted. It's as if Bird loves to unneccesarily give away young assets when it is not required.

I remember taking my sons to the Draft party. When we took K.Leanord all I could think about was the year Granger fell out of the top-5 to us. I envisioned that lightning had struck again until the trade was announced. As we existed Conseco someone from the Pacers marketing department had asked me what I thought about it, and I told him exactly what I stated above. My stance has been the same since his arrival.

Now if we were bringing him in as a sixth man I might have felt differently, but that wasn't the case.

[basketballwacko2]

If we are talking about shoulda and what if. We shoulda picked either Ty Lawson or Jeff Teague in 2009 instead of Tyler Hansbrough and how about that trade of the #11 Bayless in 2008 for #13 Brandon Rush, McRob, and Jack? I liked that deal, but then we let Jack walk and then McRob and Traded Rush for a 3rd string center.

Even worse than that we coulda had Rondo in 2006 instead of Shawne Williams!

I'm a pretty savvy guy when it comes to the CBA and trades but I don't get some of the moves we've made over the years, But every team has it's blunders and screw ups. Look at Minnesota and all the draft picks they've had now they are about to lose Kevin Love. They coulda had Stephan Curry instead of Johnny Fynn in 2009, and DeMarcus Cousins in 2010 and or 2011 they coulda had Klay Thompson instead of Derrick Williams!! In 2013 the Cavs took Anthony Bennett when they could have traded down and gotten Michael Carter-Williams.

[Boneman2]

If we are talking about shoulda and what if. We shoulda picked either Ty Lawson or Jeff Teague in 2009 instead of Tyler Hansbrough and how about that trade of the #11 Bayless in 2008 for #13 Brandon Rush, McRob, and Jack? I liked that deal, but then we let Jack walk and then McRob and Traded Rush for a 3rd string center.

Even worse than that we coulda had Rondo in 2006 instead of Shawne Williams!

I'm a pretty savvy guy when it comes to the CBA and trades but I don't get some of the moves we've made over the years, But every team has it's blunders and screw ups. Look at Minnesota and all the draft picks they've had now they are about to lose Kevin Love. They coulda had Stephan Curry instead of Johnny Fynn in 2009, and DeMarcus Cousins in 2010 and or 2011 they coulda had Klay Thompson instead of Derrick Williams!! In 2013 the Cavs took Anthony Bennett when they could have traded down and gotten Michael Carter-Williams.

I don't view George Hill so much as a draft blunder than I do a stupid pre-free agent transaction where Larry jumped the gun a year too soon. Basically you don't give up a 1st when you know SA can't/won't match such a ludicrous impending offer.

We need a ball handler so that we can move Hill off the ball. Lance and PG do some really stupid things with the ball which adds a lot pressure on Hill to perform like a playmaker. A task he's just not capable of.

Now when he played with Parker his efficiency was through the roof.

Honestly, he needs a Pg. too.

Get on it Bird.

He needs to rectify his mistake and add a deft ball handler. I really believe Vazques should be our target if we only intend to sign a cheap backup option. Another is Livingston.

[Miller4ever]

Kawhi and George and Lance would have meant someone's getting the short end of the stick. As is, Hill deferred a lot in light of Lance's development, but he's capable of being Parker-lite. I feel a bounce-back year coming.

Ballhandling isn't the issue so much as decisive and accurate ball movement and aggressive driving by anyone not named Lance. This team needs to drive like it needs to pass: for the purposes of getting a good shot, opening things up for teammates, and challenging the opposing defense.

[ChokeFasncists]

Ballhandling isn't the issue so much as decisive and accurate ball movement and aggressive driving by anyone not named Lance. This team needs to drive like it needs to pass: for the purposes of getting a good shot, opening things up for teammates, and challenging the opposing defense.

Sounds like something Lin could do!

David West's arrival put Indy over the top, not Hill's. The entire team admitted this in a post game interview they gave awhile back.

As far as the hindsight theory, didnt need it to know that George was not a Pg. He wasn't at Broad Ripple or IUPUI, and he really wasn't asked to carry the load in SA, with exception to backing up Parker for 10-12 per.

George has admitted on several occasions that he is not a Pg., yet he is tasked with playing to his weaknesses and it shows. He clearly lacks innate abilities required to play the position.

The messed up part about it is that G.Hill was expiring, meaning we could have easily had both if we wanted. It's as if Bird loves to unneccesarily give away young assets when it is not required.

I remember taking my sons to the Draft party. When we took K.Leanord all I could think about was the year Granger fell out of the top-5 to us. I envisioned that lightning had struck again until the trade was announced. As we existed Conseco someone from the Pacers marketing department had asked me what I thought about it, and I told him exactly what I stated above. My stance has been the same since his arrival.

Now if we were bringing him in as a sixth man I might have felt differently, but that wasn't the case.

Sorry about it...; but it still doesn't mean he didn't contribute to the rise of the Pacers. He actually played with Parker alot with the Spurs; but the problem was that too much small lineup made them undersized.

[Boneman2]

A ball handler to me can normally beat presses and traps and initiate the offense in a timely fashion.

As far as decisive and accurate ball movement, that's on the entire team, especially the coaching staff. I really hope Vogel can instill a hell of a lot more discipline in this department. It primarily requires unselfish players, but like Roy said publicly, "we've got a lot of selfish dudes."

[SmashMouthRod]

One good thing I will say about Hill is that he is big enough and athletic enough to guard these freak point guards on several teams. The Westbrook's; Rose's and Curry's. He is valuable in that regard. Obviously Leonard is growing into a star so it still doesn't look so good in comparing the two. But Hill was valuable to Indy on the defensive end. And for the most part against every team except Miami he plays good enough for Indy to win. However against the Heat his weaknesses are magnified because of how they like to overload pressure on the ball handler. Notice that after game 1 when Hill seemed to get off early (making 4-6 from three) against Miami; they began using Lebron on him to intimidate him. As an observer the one thing I get annoyed with Hill about is that everyone always talks about how they want and need him being aggressive and he comes off as timid and scared of the moment against Miami.

[Jake0890]

Hindisight is always 20/20. Kawhi is a beast and Hill is average. We drafted Hans over Lawson, Jerryd Bayless over Serge Ibaka, Nic Batum, etc.

Larry Bird can't predict the future.

[basketballwacko2]

A ball handler to me can normally beat presses and traps and initiate the offense in a timely fashion.

As far as decisive and accurate ball movement, that's on the entire team, especially the coaching staff. I really hope Vogel can instill a hell of a lot more discipline in this department. It primarily requires unselfish players, but like Roy said publicly, "we've got a lot of selfish dudes."

One of the most selfish plays I've seen was in game 6 vs the heatpukes, George Hill got a steal and was driving to the basket he had James who is 7 inches tall than him coming down on his left, Hill insisted on taking the shot and got it blocked we then turned it over. What he should have done was stopped and pump faked to draw a foul if that didn't work Lance was charging right in behind them, a quick pass to the trailer Lance would have been a dunk and maybe an and1. But Hill chose to do it himself and got stuffed. We were down about 7 at that point and then we went down 10 and the game got away.

We need a Point Guard who thinks pass first.