The Right time to make a BIG Move

[ATLHawksfan21]

Lebron and Riley convince people tot ake less, its what they do.

LBJ-20 million
Bosh-15 million
Wade- 10 million

45 million, that leaves them with what, up to 77 million tax threshold to sign players?

They cant find someone like Gortat/Blatche etc? Hell Kris Humphries is URFA he could replace Birdman.

Theres lots of options, but it all starts with Bosh and Wade accepting they have to get paid market value. Bosh is an All Star, I really think the way he plays, Wade playing badly hurts him. I think if they convince wade to take the bench role, Bosh will be a better player, especially with another good big next to him.

They will retool. Thats just my gut feeling

I may be wrong on this, but I thought you cannot sign a player for more than the MLE once you go over the initial cap which is projected to be 63 million next season.

That still leaves them with 18 million to sign 1 GOOD player and then -2 or 3 role players right?

They could convince someone like Gortat or Blatche to take less because they could actually win a title.

The current mid-level exception allows teams that have no cap space to spend a maximum of $5M for four years as long as the team did not pay the luxury tax in the previous season. If the team is over the cap and did pay the luxury tax the previous season, the mid-level exception is only $3M for 3 years. If the team has cap space, they may spend $2.5M for 2 years. These amounts are set in stone for the 2012-13 season, but will go up 3% each subsequent season. Prior to the current CBA, the mid-level exception amount was pegged to the average salary of players on teams over the salary cap.

I think with 18 million they could sign 1 really good player (not a superstar) and 2-3 good players. Then use the MLE to fill it out. Hell they could convince Bosh and LBJ to take even less IMO if they REALLY want rings.

I believe you have to factor in cap holds when it comes to signing people before the 63 million limit. . I am a novice when it comes to the cap requirements though.

They will also have to convince Haslem to turn down his 4.6 million option for next year when I doubt he will ever see an offer close to that.

I do agree that he stays in Miami if they all restructure but I don't think them restructuring is as sure of a thing as you do. I think this is the point where we disagree.

[PandaKidd]

I may be wrong on this, but I thought you cannot sign a player for more than the MLE once you go over the initial cap which is projected to be 63 million next season.

That still leaves them with 18 million to sign 1 GOOD player and then -2 or 3 role players right?

They could convince someone like Gortat or Blatche to take less because they could actually win a title.

The current mid-level exception allows teams that have no cap space to spend a maximum of $5M for four years as long as the team did not pay the luxury tax in the previous season. If the team is over the cap and did pay the luxury tax the previous season, the mid-level exception is only $3M for 3 years. If the team has cap space, they may spend $2.5M for 2 years. These amounts are set in stone for the 2012-13 season, but will go up 3% each subsequent season. Prior to the current CBA, the mid-level exception amount was pegged to the average salary of players on teams over the salary cap.

I think with 18 million they could sign 1 really good player (not a superstar) and 2-3 good players. Then use the MLE to fill it out. Hell they could convince Bosh and LBJ to take even less IMO if they REALLY want rings.

I believe you have to factor in cap holds when it comes to signing people before the 63 million limit. . I am a novice when it comes to the cap requirements though.

They will also have to convince Haslem to turn down his 4.6 million option for next year when I doubt he will ever see an offer close to that.

I do agree that he stays in Miami if they all restructure but I don't think them restructuring is as sure of a thing as you do. I think this is the point where we disagree.

Im not versed in all the nuances of the CBA so Im with you on that one.

I just cant see him leaving.

[D21]

If they sign for 20, 15 and 10M, it makes 45M. Add the 2M for Cole, it goes to 47M for 4 players.
48.2M for 5 players if they keep their 26th pick.
51.6M for 5 players if they sell the pick, but Haslem stays.
52.8M for 6 players if they keep pick and Haslem.

In first case : 47 + 8 roster charges of a bit more than 0.5M = 51 so 12.2M of "instant cap room" for one contract (they can use 12.7 for example if they first sign a player for 6M, leaving 12.2 - 6 + 0.5 (one roster charge less) = 6.7 for another)
Second case : 48.2 + 7 roster charges = 51.7 so 11.5M of "instant cap room"
Third case : 51.6 + 7 roster charges = 55.1 = 8.1M of "instant cap room"
Fourth case : 52.8 + 6 roster charges = 55.8 = 7.4M of "instant cap room"

[theatlfan]

Chicago may have finished the season with the 4th seed but they weren't the 4th best team and watching the Washington series made that obvious. Coach Thibs is famous for overworking his players in the regular season which results in an inflated regular season record and a lackluster playoff showing based on their seeding.

and if I'm Melo, there is no way that I put my hopes on Rose's knee after dealing with Amare's knees for the whole time he has been in NYK. He might as well stay in NYK if he is going to do that.

*shrug* WASH was healthy and hot - not sure if that makes them a better team overall or just for the one series. Still, CHI was definitely in the top 5 and 8 games out of 1st. Sure, they'd lose a Dunleavy and a Gibson and those would be big blows, but they could be amassing 3 1st (including Mirotic) and Rose. Further, a stronger team at the top probably means more rest for the weary from Thibs as well since there would theoretically mean more lineups that could hold their own, more blowouts, and possibly even some games at the end that wouldn't have any playoff seeding bearing.

As far as the knee, I guess I could see someone who didn't understand the differences between Amar'e's injuries and Rose's to be wary, but I'd assume that IF CHI were to really make a run at Melo then they'd do a lot more to educate him on those differences. Across all sports, ACL and meniscus tears are actually pretty common and have well worn rehab timelines; at the time Amar'e had the microfracture surgery, it was a revolutionary surgery for a career threatening injury and the debridement from the last two seasons is most likely because of one or both of these. Also, we should note that in Melo's 1st year+ in NY, Amar'e didn't have any knee issues so if he sees a ticking time bomb, it'd tick much slower for the 29 yo Amar'e than the 26 yo Rose.

Again, no idea if this is the direction that CHI would look to go, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them as a very real possibility. They gave up a 1st to dump Hinrich in their hunt for LeBron/D-Wade last time and this time they have more ammo to dump salaries and less bad ones to get rid of. If they truly want Melo, they can make a run.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Chicago may have finished the season with the 4th seed but they weren't the 4th best team and watching the Washington series made that obvious. Coach Thibs is famous for overworking his players in the regular season which results in an inflated regular season record and a lackluster playoff showing based on their seeding.

and if I'm Melo, there is no way that I put my hopes on Rose's knee after dealing with Amare's knees for the whole time he has been in NYK. He might as well stay in NYK if he is going to do that.

*shrug* WASH was healthy and hot - not sure if that makes them a better team overall or just for the one series. Still, CHI was definitely in the top 5 and 8 games out of 1st. Sure, they'd lose a Dunleavy and a Gibson and those would be big blows, but they could be amassing 3 1st (including Mirotic) and Rose. Further, a stronger team at the top probably means more rest for the weary from Thibs as well since there would theoretically mean more lineups that could hold their own, more blowouts, and possibly even some games at the end that wouldn't have any playoff seeding bearing.

As far as the knee, I guess I could see someone who didn't understand the differences between Amar'e's injuries and Rose's to be wary, but I'd assume that IF CHI were to really make a run at Melo then they'd do a lot more to educate him on those differences. Across all sports, ACL and meniscus tears are actually pretty common and have well worn rehab timelines; at the time Amar'e had the microfracture surgery, it was a revolutionary surgery for a career threatening injury and the debridement from the last two seasons is most likely because of one or both of these. Also, we should note that in Melo's 1st year+ in NY, Amar'e didn't have any knee issues so if he sees a ticking time bomb, it'd tick much slower for the 29 yo Amar'e than the 26 yo Rose.

Again, no idea if this is the direction that CHI would look to go, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them as a very real possibility. They gave up a 1st to dump Hinrich in their hunt for LeBron/D-Wade last time and this time they have more ammo to dump salaries and less bad ones to get rid of. If they truly want Melo, they can make a run.

What is there to understand? Rose hasnt played in forever and he looked terrible in the short time that he did play before reinjuring the knee. His game is 100% based on athleticism. I don't think that it's a stretch to believe that these knee injuries will hinder Rose going forward.

What would be more surprising? To see Rose return to his former prime self and be one of the most explosive players in the league or he gown to another knee injury. My guess would be the latter. I hope I am wrong though as I hate seeing players get injured,

[theatlfan]

What is there to understand? Rose hasnt played in forever and he looked terrible in the short time that he did play before reinjuring the knee. His game is 100% based on athleticism. I don't think that it's a stretch to believe that these knee injuries will hinder Rose going forward.

What would be more surprising? To see Rose return to his former prime self and be one of the most explosive players in the league or he gown to another knee injury. My guess would be the latter. I hope I am wrong though as I hate seeing players get injured,

If you're asking what is there to understand, then obviously there's a lot to understand. What happened to Amar'e's knees and the procedures he underwent in each knee the last 2 seasons in no way compare to what we know publicly about Rose's injuries. You have to understand that Amar'e's knees are literally dying. The doctors are going in to cut out the dead parts so that the parts that are still alive don't have to carry the dead weight. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Amar'e has fake knees inside 10 years. You have to understand that Rose has had two injuries that would be considered common in the NFL. These injuries are billion dollar industries that have practitioners in every major city who specialize in the surgery and rehabilitation of professional athletes for the injuries that Rose suffered. I really have no idea why these two situations can be viewed as remotely similar - so forth comparable.

Unless there's something that CHI isn't letting out about Rose and his injuries, then I'd be more surprised to see him go down again. If Rose isn't the same after he gets back into game shape, then I'd wager that the fact that he's now 27 and hasn't played in 2 years has more to do with the difference than any decline from his actual injuries. He hasn't injured the same knee twice - he injured his left knee 2 years ago and his right knee this past season. If his 2nd injury was, say, a torn tendons in his foot would you be so strenuous in your suggestion that his knees are as bad as the guy whose knees are dying? Yet, that's the argument you're making since his injuries would be as related as the analogy...

[ATLHawksfan21]

What is there to understand? Rose hasnt played in forever and he looked terrible in the short time that he did play before reinjuring the knee. His game is 100% based on athleticism. I don't think that it's a stretch to believe that these knee injuries will hinder Rose going forward.

What would be more surprising? To see Rose return to his former prime self and be one of the most explosive players in the league or he gown to another knee injury. My guess would be the latter. I hope I am wrong though as I hate seeing players get injured,

If you're asking what is there to understand, then obviously there's a lot to understand. What happened to Amar'e's knees and the procedures he underwent in each knee the last 2 seasons in no way compare to what we know publicly about Rose's injuries. You have to understand that Amar'e's knees are literally dying. The doctors are going in to cut out the dead parts so that the parts that are still alive don't have to carry the dead weight. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Amar'e has fake knees inside 10 years. You have to understand that Rose has had two injuries that would be considered common in the NFL. These injuries are billion dollar industries that have practitioners in every major city who specialize in the surgery and rehabilitation of professional athletes for the injuries that Rose suffered. I really have no idea why these two situations can be viewed as remotely similar - so forth comparable.

Unless there's something that CHI isn't letting out about Rose and his injuries, then I'd be more surprised to see him go down again. If Rose isn't the same after he gets back into game shape, then I'd wager that the fact that he's now 27 and hasn't played in 2 years has more to do with the difference than any decline from his actual injuries. He hasn't injured the same knee twice - he injured his left knee 2 years ago and his right knee this past season. If his 2nd injury was, say, a torn tendons in his foot would you be so strenuous in your suggestion that his knees are as bad as the guy whose knees are dying? Yet, that's the argument you're making since his injuries would be as related as the analogy...

Thanks for the information on the severity of each player's knee injuries but I still stand by my previous statement. If I am Melo, I would be scared to death of Rose's knees. Rose has barely been on the court for two years. I would think that this would be alarming to every one since he is so dependent on his athleticism. At least Amare came back and looked solid in the second half of this season.

When was Amare's last knee injury or surgery? I'm just curious as to how long it took for him to recover enough to where he could contribute once again. I would think that it would take Rose at least a full year if not longer to return to his prior self if he is still capable of it. We all have seen how Lou Will's knee injury has drastically reduced his speed and movement. Before the injury, Lou Will could get in to the paint pretty easily. Now, he tries to make a move and he can't get past his guy which leads to him taking a stepback jumper.

[azuresou1]

I think Rose is done.

10 games (311 minutes) played, 9.7 PER, .446 TS%.

That's AJ Price-level of bad.

[atlantabbq99]

There is a reason Thibodeau is looking to leaving Chicago.... he knows Rose is done.

[theatlfan]

Thanks for the information on the severity of each player's knee injuries but I still stand by my previous statement. If I am Melo, I would be scared to death of Rose's knees. Rose has barely been on the court for two years. I would think that this would be alarming to every one since he is so dependent on his athleticism. At least Amare came back and looked solid in the second half of this season.

When was Amare's last knee injury or surgery? I'm just curious as to how long it took for him to recover enough to where he could contribute once again. I would think that it would take Rose at least a full year if not longer to return to his prior self if he is still capable of it. We all have seen how Lou Will's knee injury has drastically reduced his speed and movement. Before the injury, Lou Will could get in to the paint pretty easily. Now, he tries to make a move and he can't get past his guy which leads to him taking a stepback jumper.

Sorry, I don't know when Amar'e had his procedures done. I'm sure it'd be easy enough to google - his procedure was called a debridement and he has had one of each knee in over the last 2 years. As far as Amar'e's performance, he's a professional and he'll do what it takes to get on the court and produce what he can for as long as he can - I respect him for that. It takes a lot to come back from what he's gone through (admittedly, I also see 20+M reasons why he did it...).

Lou and Rondo would be the cases that you'd have to comp Rose to - although the meniscus tear this past season is a curveball. I thought Lou was starting to come along toward the end of the season although some of that might have been a last ditch "Save the Season" run for him. I didn't watch Rondo at all this past season so I have no idea how he looked, but I know his numbers were down as well. Having said that, the old axiom from football was that athletes typically take 2 years to fully recover from ACL tears, although the rehab indusrty has made strides here and players are more ready to go when they take the field after 1 year now. Still, I'd give the basketball players the same leeway before I'd consider writing them off.

I think Rose is done.

10 games (311 minutes) played, 9.7 PER, .446 TS%.

That's AJ Price-level of bad.

SSS. His number in the pre-season was 6 games (156 minutes) played, 28.6 PER, 64.1 TS%. That's Lebron level good.

There is a reason Thibodeau is looking to leaving Chicago.... he knows Rose is done.

Lol - Thibs isn't a doctor. I think Thibs is like Larry Brown (and many coaches, but Brown is the prime example) - every 2-4 years or so, he gets an itch no matter how successful he is in the situation he is in. Over the last 3.5 decades, the only time Thibs stayed in one place for longer was when he stayed with NYK from '96-'03. Perhaps not so coincidentally, Brown's longest tenure was '97-'03 with PHI...

[Yungsta404]

the speculation of thibs wanting to leave has nothing to do with Rose's health. the speculation revolves around the conflict he has with the Front Office. (letting go one of his favorite assistants, trading some of his favorite players, minutes distribution etc.....)

[azuresou1]

Who cares about pre-season, where guys play against a mishmash of talent and the only guys who care are D-Leaguers trying to make the cut?

In double the sample size in ACTUAL NBA competition, Rose was flat out bad.

[theatlfan]

Who cares about pre-season, where guys play against a mishmash of talent and the only guys who care are D-Leaguers trying to make the cut?

In double the sample size in ACTUAL NBA competition, Rose was flat out bad.

Would be a decent argument if this was factually true, but alas, it isn't. In the 6 games Rose played, the opposing starting PG played more than him 2x (IND G Hill both times), played about the same 2x (MIL B Knight; MEM M Conley), played minimal minutes once (DEN Lawson; backup A Miller played a lot though), and sat with an injury (DET Jennings wisdom teeth pulled) the last. Is this not "ACTUAL NBA" competition? I think those other 6 teams would be quite offended...

[ATLHawksfan21]

Who cares about pre-season, where guys play against a mishmash of talent and the only guys who care are D-Leaguers trying to make the cut?

In double the sample size in ACTUAL NBA competition, Rose was flat out bad.

Would be a decent argument if this was factually true, but alas, it isn't. In the 6 games Rose played, the opposing starting PG played more than him 2x (IND G Hill both times), played about the same 2x (MIL B Knight; MEM M Conley), played minimal minutes once (DEN Lawson; backup A Miller played a lot though), and sat with an injury (DET Jennings wisdom teeth pulled) the last. Is this not "ACTUAL NBA" competition? I think those other 6 teams would be quite offended...

Since when is defense one on one and not team. I will just use the Memphis game as an example. Tony Allen, Tayshaun Prince, Marc Gasol all sat that game out and they are the top 3 defenders for the Grizzlies.

So I would say his statement is 100% factually correct. Plenty of guys sit out preseason games and most of them are not giving 100% at all times. Regular season production will always trump preseason production as a method to see how a player is performing and it's not even close.

[theatlfan]

Since when is defense one on one and not team. I will just use the Memphis game as an example. Tony Allen, Tayshaun Prince, Marc Gasol all sat that game out and they are the top 3 defenders for the Grizzlies.

So I would say his statement is 100% factually correct. Plenty of guys sit out preseason games and most of them are not giving 100% at all times. Regular season production will always trump preseason production as a method to see how a player is performing and it's not even close.

Wait - what are we talking about here? Are we discussing if Rose still has the athleticism to blow past his man and create offense? If so, then playing 1-on-1 against Conley would go a long way toward proving this. If we're discussing that a 1-year (at the time) layoff would diminish his B-Ball skills and court vision, then I would agree that having Allen and M Gasol on the floor to give help and force Rose into a decision would be a more accurate depiction of what Rose lost, but I don't think this is in question. I haven't seen anyone (except me) question if he can eventually get his mind back to the game - it's his knees that others are questioning here...

Still though, the MEM game is obvious cherry picking. In the two IND games, Vogel played his regulars big minutes (or, as big as Rose was getting all things considered); DET and MIL played their healthy regulars as much or more than Rose; only MEM and DEN (who apparently wanted to give A Miller and lil' N Robinson some burn behind Lawson) laid up a little. The fact is that most pre-season games are about experimentation, coaches putting different lineups on the floor to see how they fare against different competition. Teams aren't typically putting Johnny D-League on the floor against the other team's starter; they may be playing backups a smidge more but even then they aren't looking to play them against the other team's stars unless it's a matchup the coach thinks he could do well with down the line. In the sample we're looking at with Rose, the opposing coach left his best man in m2m against Rose and Rose did very, very well in those matchups.

The last thing to point out here is that if the preseason was as you and azuresou imply (basically, a mismash of D-Leaguer fighting for a spot), then you'd expect that the stars to be able to put up numbers that are reminiscent of the AS game and call it a day. But this simply isn't the case. LeBron played a similar number of minutes as Rose (150+) and put up a 22.4 PER and a 57 TS%; Horford had 141 minutes with a 18.7 PER and 57 TS%. Sure, Lebron and Horford were probably working on certain things, but Rose was too and doing it very well.

Now, is this all a SSS? Yes, it most definitely is - hence, the comment back to azuresou.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Since when is defense one on one and not team. I will just use the Memphis game as an example. Tony Allen, Tayshaun Prince, Marc Gasol all sat that game out and they are the top 3 defenders for the Grizzlies.

So I would say his statement is 100% factually correct. Plenty of guys sit out preseason games and most of them are not giving 100% at all times. Regular season production will always trump preseason production as a method to see how a player is performing and it's not even close.

Wait - what are we talking about here? Are we discussing if Rose still has the athleticism to blow past his man and create offense? If so, then playing 1-on-1 against Conley would go a long way toward proving this. If we're discussing that a 1-year (at the time) layoff would diminish his B-Ball skills and court vision, then I would agree that having Allen and M Gasol on the floor to give help and force Rose into a decision would be a more accurate depiction of what Rose lost, but I don't think this is in question. I haven't seen anyone (except me) question if he can eventually get his mind back to the game - it's his knees that others are questioning here...

Still though, the MEM game is obvious cherry picking. In the two IND games, Vogel played his regulars big minutes (or, as big as Rose was getting all things considered); DET and MIL played their healthy regulars as much or more than Rose; only MEM and DEN (who apparently wanted to give A Miller and lil' N Robinson some burn behind Lawson) laid up a little. The fact is that most pre-season games are about experimentation, coaches putting different lineups on the floor to see how they fare against different competition. Teams aren't typically putting Johnny D-League on the floor against the other team's starter; they may be playing backups a smidge more but even then they aren't looking to play them against the other team's stars unless it's a matchup the coach thinks he could do well with down the line. In the sample we're looking at with Rose, the opposing coach left his best man in m2m against Rose and Rose did very, very well in those matchups.

The last thing to point out here is that if the preseason was as you and azuresou imply (basically, a mismash of D-Leaguer fighting for a spot), then you'd expect that the stars to be able to put up numbers that are reminiscent of the AS game and call it a day. But this simply isn't the case. LeBron played a similar number of minutes as Rose (150+) and put up a 22.4 PER and a 57 TS%; Horford had 141 minutes with a 18.7 PER and 57 TS%. Sure, Lebron and Horford were probably working on certain things, but Rose was too and doing it very well.

Now, is this all a SSS? Yes, it most definitely is - hence, the comment back to azuresou.

I wasn't cherry picking. it was the only game I could find. I googled nba preseason box scores and came up with nothing other than a post from the Grizzlies SBNation page which had a recap of the game and listed those guys as DNP.

I guess we just have a difference of opinion otherwise. The regular season and preseason are just different levels of play.

[Jamaaliver]

For what it's worth:

The Bulls are emboldened by their options and flexibility heading into the draft and free agency, and the No. 1 reason just happens to be their most important piece of the puzzle: Derrick Rose. Rose is playing 5-on-5 on a daily basis, and, according to one witness, "looks like the old Derrick Rose.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/writer/ken-berger/24593842/draft-buzz-bulls-seeking-help-for-derrick-rose

Rumors of D-Rose's demise may have been somewhat exaggerated.

Time will tell.

He'll be 26 next season and is just now entering his prime after sitting out two straight years.

[theatlfan]

I wasn't cherry picking. it was the only game I could find. I googled nba preseason box scores and came up with nothing other than a post from the Grizzlies SBNation page which had a recap of the game and listed those guys as DNP.

I guess we just have a difference of opinion otherwise. The regular season and preseason are just different levels of play.

If you go to the Game Log his player page on ESPN, there are links to every box score he played in, including pre-season. Haven't tried it, but I'd imagine you can get just about any game they've played. I know CFB goes back a decade or more.

I don't disagree that there is a difference in play between preseason and regular season, but it isn't the NFL/MLB wasteland you imply either. In those sports, starters have tee times before the game concludes but in the NBA, it isn't uncommon for a starter to get some 4Q minutes - especially later in the preseason. Like all preseason games across the major sports, it's pretty common for one team to match the other. If one team is riding the starters, then the other will at least use lineups that the coach will expect to use during the regular season. Hence, it would be very odd to see Rose against Johnny D-League which is the continuing argument in throwing away the D-League games.

This is really beside the greater point here though which is that it's foolish to dismiss someone due to 10 games of sub-par play by being completely blind to the fact that there's more you can add to the sample size where Rose was among the elite. It's like saying that Korver can't shoot because 1 time you saw him go 1-8 from 3. If there's a bigger sample you can pull from, then you should pull it. You shouldn't dismiss it because it refutes your point.

[azuresou1]

Again - Rose played double the minutes in regular season after that preseason, and he posted a 9.7 PER in that time when the games actually played.

I find it ironic you're asking us to use a bigger sample to pull from, then ignoring his regular season (311 minutes) in favor of his preseason (156 minutes). Even if you weight-average it out, it's still not impressive.

[theatlfan]

Again - Rose played double the minutes in regular season after that preseason, and he posted a 9.7 PER in that time when the games actually played.

I find it ironic you're asking us to use a bigger sample to pull from, then ignoring his regular season (311 minutes) in favor of his preseason (156 minutes). Even if you weight-average it out, it's still not impressive.

?? I'm not saying we should eschew the regular season numbers, and I actually think a healthy skepticism in regards to Rose and his return is warranted. I just think that it's much too early to have a more than that though (I.e., calling him "done") and much, much, much too early to say that his injuries will result in an Amar'e situation where he'll be expected to miss games and only be able to play about 1/2 of the games that he does.

If I'm 'Melo, I hear out CHI and their pitch (again - IF CHI is willing to give one 1) but I'd want to understand where Rose is at in his rehab (the real story - not whatever gets released to the press before the draft and FA). That's really all I'm saying here - not that we should ignore anything that he has or hasn't done, but that when you look at the entire picture that picture isn't so bleak for him and CHI that FA's shouldn't come around.