Are the Jordan/Lebron comparisons finally over?

[MasterIchiro]

Lebron has now been defeated in the Finals 3x in the prime of his career. He's now 30. Wade looks on the decline. Battier and Allen will likely retire. Chalmers will leave for a bigger payday.

When I watched Jordan I saw a guy who could have rattled off 8 consecutive championships. Lebron has 2 and it looks like he just hit a wall (or a train). This is not about Lebron hating. It's about remembering the greatest of all time. It's insulting for his legacy to be compared to anyone.

Nobody could have beat Jordan in his prime, not Patrick Ewing, Hakeem Olajuwon, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Isaiah Thomas + Joe Dumars, Karl Malone + John Stockton, Gary Payton, Clyde Drexler...

Jordan didn't bother to hatch any schemes to benefit from the hard work of these HOF'ers. He didn't have to. He was too much of a competitor and survivalist so he set out on a mission to beat them. And he beat them so thoroughly there was never any doubt, he was dominant over hall of famers, every year, every step of the way.

This is about more than statistics and MVP awards. If you had a chance to witness his greatness during his two 3-peats, he just seemed to be in control the whole time. You never got the feeling he was going to let the Bulls lose.

Now that we've seen the Mavs and Spurs beat the Heat, I think we can put an end to the Jordan/Lebron comparisons and stop insulting the man.

[mrknowitall215]

As long as there are diehard LeBron fans and babies born late into the 90's it will still be up for debate, but anybody that 'know' basketball 'know' that LeBron isn't close to Michael Jordan's legacy

[Bassman]

James should and will be remembered as a great player; one of the game's best. Jordan remains the greatest, and I suspect James will be remembered in the rarified air occupied by Wilt, Russell, Bird and Magic. He is not a favorite of mine but his abilities are impressive.

[yosemiteben]

Nobody could have beat Jordan in his prime...

He lost in the conference finals to Detroit when he was 27.

Jordan didn't bother to hatch any schemes to benefit from the hard work of these HOF'ers. He didn't have to.

Right, they were already on his team.

When Jordan took his first season off, 1993-94, the Bulls still won 55 games. He wasn't playing with scrubs.

I'll go ahead and point out that I don't care to get very involved with the LeBron / MJ debates because frankly I just don't care.

[LamarMatic7]

Ugh... as if anybody besides stupid shows like The First Take actually take this debate seriously.

[MasterIchiro]

I don't think Scottie Pippen counts because he evolved alongside Jordan. Without Jordan, would Pippen have become so great? It's not like Jordan cherry picked Pippen as a teammate because he was an established superstar and NBA champion before he even got there (Wade, Dwayne).

Otherwise, Kukoc and Rodman were the only all-star caliber players imported for Jordan. His early titles were basically all scrubs, an old Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant, John Paxson, and later guys like BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley.

Here's another key thing - Many of Jordan's scrubs played big minutes as starters, not bench guys.

Wade + Bosh + Allen is kind of ridiculous.

These guys were cherry picked which is why Lebron's reign lacks the same authenticity. That and he lost big.

[jakenc]

I mean the Spurs this year were an absolutely dominant machine who got solid contributions from almost everyone on their roster from Tim and Boris to Patty Mills and Danny Green. Hell, Matt Bonner even put up a few points. Lebron might've had a more talented supporting cast than the Spurs did, but they didn't show up for the Finals at a level anywhere close to the Spurs. Lebron didn't play badly. I don't really count this series as a huge negative towards Lebron's legacy, because who could beat that Spurs team single handidly with the way they played? Put Jordan on that Heat team and make all of the Heat roster play the same way as they did, and do you think they would've beat San Antonio?

[mrknowitall215]

Put Jordan on that Heat team and make all of the Heat roster play the same way as they did, and do you think they would've beat San Antonio?

YES!

[MasterIchiro]

I mean the Spurs this year were an absolutely dominant machine who got solid contributions from almost everyone on their roster from Tim and Boris to Patty Mills and Danny Green. Hell, Matt Bonner even put up a few points. Lebron might've had a more talented supporting cast than the Spurs did, but they didn't show up for the Finals at a level anywhere close to the Spurs. Lebron didn't play badly. I don't really count this series as a huge negative towards Lebron's legacy, because who could beat that Spurs team single handidly with the way they played? Put Jordan on that Heat team and make all of the Heat roster play the same way as they did, and do you think they would've beat San Antonio?

Yes.

[LofJ]

I mean the Spurs this year were an absolutely dominant machine who got solid contributions from almost everyone on their roster from Tim and Boris to Patty Mills and Danny Green. Hell, Matt Bonner even put up a few points. Lebron might've had a more talented supporting cast than the Spurs did, but they didn't show up for the Finals at a level anywhere close to the Spurs. Lebron didn't play badly. I don't really count this series as a huge negative towards Lebron's legacy, because who could beat that Spurs team single handidly with the way they played? Put Jordan on that Heat team and make all of the Heat roster play the same way as they did, and do you think they would've beat San Antonio?

Yes.

Part of what made Jordan so great was that he demanded perfection from his teammates. MJ would have never allowed his team to not show up for a Finals.

[ohara]

James should and will be remembered as a great player; one of the game's best. Jordan remains the greatest, and I suspect James will be remembered in the rarified air occupied by Wilt, Russell, Bird and Magic. He is not a favorite of mine but his abilities are impressive.

Very well said. James is a great player, and extremely impressive. But I don't put him in the same light as Jordan. Honestly, I think Kobe is closer to MJ status than James has gotten or will likely get. And that is not in any way a knock on James. That just speaks for how I view Kobe's abilities, drive and desire to be the best.

[chabber]

Come on now, I don't even like the Heat but that team has glaring holes that have gotten covered up by a gimmick defense and a small ball lineup that only works because of Lebron. The roster is flawed because of the fact that they all chose to play together through free agency and get paid like superstars. In reality they've had to morph two of them into role players just to fit with Lebron and a little because of wear and tear.

The match up in the Finals favored them over OKC two years ago but they could have lost to the Spurs last season. Two championships in a row helped lead to them making poor decisions last off season and getting blown away in the Finals this year by a buzz saw Spurs team.

I'm not taking up for them but I don't think it's as easy as saying Jordan instead of Lebron = Championship.

Nobody could have beat Jordan in his prime...

He lost in the conference finals to Detroit when he was 27.

Jordan didn't bother to hatch any schemes to benefit from the hard work of these HOF'ers. He didn't have to.

Right, they were already on his team.

When Jordan took his first season off, 1993-94, the Bulls still won 55 games. He wasn't playing with scrubs.

I'll go ahead and point out that I don't care to get very involved with the LeBron / MJ debates because frankly I just don't care.

Also I never really cared for this line of thinking in the argument against Jordan. Would that Bulls team have won 55 games if they were just put together that year? Would Pippen have developed into the player he was without Michael, Phil and those Detroit teams challenging him and establishing his confidence? Reality is that was a 3 time defending championship team with all the confidence in the world. Pippen was looking to prove himself as a leader and they had added a nice piece in Kukoc as well.

[mrknowitall215]

It's as simple as this, the Spurs defense in the Finals was geared to make LeBron beat them via Kawhi Leonard's 1-on-1 defense while the rest of the defenders stuck to their man only to bluff on occasions as help side. Leonard being in foul trouble in Game 1 & 2 was the only reason why the Heat were allowed to be more competitive than they were the rest of the series because the Spurs were forced to send help defenders on LeBron since Danny Green wasn't strong enough and Boris Diaw wasn't quick enough. The Spurs practically dared LeBron to beat them, knowing that the previous year that players like Mario Chalmers, Shane Battier, Norris Cole, Ray Allen, and Mike Miller were as much of a dagger to them than the Big 3. That's why LeBron was able to go on hot streak quarters from time to time, because he's a great player, but they were content not to double team or offer Kawhi much help to maintain taking away LeBron's teammates

The difference between LeBron and Jordan is...Jordan would've single-handedly outscored the Spurs offense if they dared to defend him 1-on-1, and would've forced them to double team while LeBron doesn't have that type of killer instinct mentality or scoring prowess to really takeover games in the nature that Jordan could

[DY_nasty]

I think some of yal are really, really addicted to ESPN's talking point way of thinking.

The Heat's decimation was on X's and O's. The same reason Dallas took San Antonio to 7 games is why Miami was destined to lose. Miami's defense is predicated on outright assaulting the initiator of the PnR. Its common knowledge and its something that they've been practicing for years. Dallas does NOT. They commit hard to the screener or roll man - especially off-ball. This combined with the fact that SA has shifted its defense towards stopping individual-player focused offenses through their play in the West over the years and their ridiculous depth...

San Antonio couldn't NOT play 'beautiful basketball' against Miami. The clock could've wound back 4 years for Wade and it still wouldn't have mattered. Jordan's lack of 3pt shooting wouldn't have changed things much at all. If anything, Jordan would've just shot Miami out of the game quicker if you simply plugged him instead of LBJ - which is ridiculous in itself because Miami's entire 'good' offense revolves around James' initiation and passing which is some of the best the league has ever seen. MJ and LBJ are two very different players and the constant need to compare them to each other has been stupid ever since LBJ's third year in Cleveland.

Its absolutely pointless.

Instead of jocking these dumb legacy arguments people should learn what the hell horns is lol

or talk about how good Bosh used to be before Spo neutered him or something

or how mario chalmers got thrown in the bushes but would be a perfect fit in Indiana at the same time rofl

[HornetJail]

This Spurs team may have put on one of the most dominant 3-game stretches (Games 3-5) I've ever seen in the finals. Wade was utter garbage, as was the rest of Lebron's supporting cast. Replace Lebron with Jordan, and you don't get a different result. Wade, Chalmers, Bosh... all were garbage. Ray.A.R.P. Allen was Lebron's second best player in this series, and there is no way in the f*cking world they're overcoming a Spurs team this hot, this dominant, with that sorry supporting cast. Wade's regression, Bosh becoming a role player, no defensive big man worth a damn... this honestly feels like a rich man's version of the 2004-10 Cavaliers.

[chabber]

I don't disagree that Jordan would have attacked and scored and forced doubles that lead to open shots. I don't think Lebron did that enough in game 3 or 4. Especially early game 4. It looked like he was running half speed all game, even when he had his big 3rd quarter, no aggressiveness or urgency what so ever.

I just don't think the result would have been much different. Like Biz said above, who would have been his next best player? Ray Allen? Wade had something like a 10 per for the series. He was an utter mess.

[mrknowitall215]

Dwyane Wade averaged 15 points per game on 44% shooting, 4 rebounds, and 3 assist in that Finals series

Are y'all aware that...

Scottie Pippen only averaged 15 points per game on 34% shooting in the Finals against the Seattle SuperSonics in 1996

...and only averaged 15 points per game on 41% shooting in the Finals against the Utah Jazz in 1998



It's as if in revisionist theory people seem to forget that even a limp Wade is still a better sidekick statistically than Pippen

[chabber]

Did Pippen forget how to play defense? Because Wade sure did.

[mrknowitall215]

Did Pippen forget how to play defense? Because Wade sure did.

Is it Wade's lack of defense or offense, because I'm getting confused with which narrative some people want to take it to give LeBron a pass

I'm particularly responding to the notion that nobody else showed up offensively to help LeBron the way how Jordan's Bulls teammates did, whereas I displayed that Pippen posted similar numbers to Wade in Finals series' in which Jordan still won with his secondary scorer not quite delivering

[ball teacher]

Lebron isn't in Jordan's league. The teams, players, and defenses are all weaker now. Most of the teams just play a pick and freestyle a play type of offense. When San Antonio actually uses real plays (unlike most teams nowadays) and it confuses and stifles the so called best player in the world and his two "superstar" teamates, how can anyone say Lebron and his Heatles would beat teams that were even better than the champion Spurs? Those teams had better players and better plays than the Spurs had and those other teams played even more physical, get in your face defense!
Jordan would average over 40 points if he played in todays game that features few real dominant big men, unlike when he played, and he had real aggresive defenders, and team defenses, unlike todays game. I have no doubt that Scottie Pippen would give Lebron the business if someone like Kawhi Leonard could. Scottie was better than Leonard and Leonard single handedly changed the complexion of the series. Imagine what Pippen would do to him.