Jordan '96-'98 finals vs James 2014 Finals

[HoopsterJones]

I corrected my post, yeah then went to a game 7 of the ECSF. Still the Bulls were quite competitive without MJ. And as I said the dropoff in the 94-95 was mainly due to them losing Horace Grant who was a 15/11/3 player in 93-94.

If we are being honest, without MJ, Pippen also led the Bulls to 55 wins, was a legit MVP candidate and took this team to a game 7 of the ECF. Cavs without LeBron fell apart and have been in the lottery every year since. Let's not forget that the drop-off in 94-95 season was expected as the Grant went to the Magic to join Shaq.

Oh I don't discredit that at all. That was Pippen's best year by far and he was playing at a MVP caliber level. But they didn't make the ECF it was the Semi Finals when they lost to the Knicks.

And again, they were a .500 team, like 31-31 when a rusty MJ can back the following year and just got beat by the Magic in the EC Semi Finals.

Yeah, I corrected my post. Still the Bulls were quite competitive without MJ. And the drop-off from the 93-94 to 94-95 season was mainly due to losing Grant who was a 15/11/3 player in 93-94.

Yeah 93-94 was the year Horace Grant made the All-Star team. Also he best year in his career.

In 94-95 Pippen and Kukoc were splitting time at the PF position and Will Perdue was their starting center. Yikes. They didn't have a single true PF or any big man for that matter on that team and still pushed Shaq and Penny's Magic to 6 games, nearly forced game 7.

[HurricaneKid]

Lebron needs to win more to even have this conversation. Keep in mind Jordan NEVER lost in the finals and won 6 times in a row.

A) No he didn't win 6 times in a row. He GAGGED and gave the Magic the series in 1995.

B) He lost THREE times in the first round including 2 sweeps. Are we seriously saying thats a better result than getting to the Finals carrying a horrific team?

Well since people are saying Jordan never faced an opponent like the '14 Spurs, it's only fair that I bring up the opponents Jordan (Before Pippen arrived or was a rookie) had to face in the 1st round.

Birds Celtics who won Championships.
Detroit Pistons who won Championships.

Lebron played an abysmal Bucks team last season, and this year the Bobcats. Lebron's team was usually on a 1 or 2 seed and the first round weak eastern conference opponent is not even playoff caliber and certainly not a team full of HOF'ers in their prime like the Celtics and Pistons.

Why bring up erroneous stats to prop up Lebron and detract from MJ? Faulty logic when you look at it objectively.

Well thats because he was going to the playoffs with 30-52 records. LeBron was winning 66 games with a team that had a -5.6 SRS without him.

LeBron has been on one team since he was 21 that didn't win 50+ games. And that year they were the closest team to knocking off Boston's Big 3 the year they won the title.

[HoopsterJones]

A) No he didn't win 6 times in a row. He GAGGED and gave the Magic the series in 1995.

B) He lost THREE times in the first round including 2 sweeps. Are we seriously saying thats a better result than getting to the Finals carrying a horrific team?

Well since people are saying Jordan never faced an opponent like the '14 Spurs, it's only fair that I bring up the opponents Jordan (Before Pippen arrived or was a rookie) had to face in the 1st round.

Birds Celtics who won Championships.
Detroit Pistons who won Championships.

Lebron played an abysmal Bucks team last season, and this year the Bobcats. Lebron's team was usually on a 1 or 2 seed and the first round weak eastern conference opponent is not even playoff caliber and certainly not a team full of HOF'ers in their prime like the Celtics and Pistons.

Why bring up erroneous stats to prop up Lebron and detract from MJ? Faulty logic when you look at it objectively.

Well thats because he was going to the playoffs with 30-52 records. LeBron was winning 66 games with a team that had a -5.6 SRS without him.

LeBron has been on one team since he was 21 that didn't win 50+ games. And that year they were the closest team to knocking off Boston's Big 3 the year they won the title.

30-52 the year MJ broke his foot and played in 18 games. Dropped 63 points in the playoffs against Birds Celtics and gave it very thing he got when he had nobody. How many wins do the Cavs win if Lebron only play 18 games?

I'm going to guess you're under 30 years old and you looked it up but failed look up how many games MJ actually played that year. I remembered it because I'm old enough to have watched and enjoyed MJ's entire career, just like how I'm watching Lebron now because he is also a great player and a once in a generation talent.

[HurricaneKid]

No. I'm probably older than you. And I am an original MJ fan. I'm a grown man with a family and I still have a framed print of MJ on my wall. I just think the legend of MJ has long surpassed his greatness. I think a great deal of that is that he was undisputedly the GOAT marketer.

And I watched that game.

[HoopsterJones]

No. I'm probably older than you. And I am an original MJ fan. I'm a grown man with a family and I still have a framed print of MJ on my wall. I just think the legend of MJ has long surpassed his greatness. I think a great deal of that is that he was undisputedly the GOAT marketer.

And I watched that game.

Seems odd that a MJ fan would bring up the 30-52 record season in 86 as a negative and either didn't know that MJ only played 18 games due to broken foot. But whatever, I won't antagonize it.

I'm a family man myself, with my first grandkid on the way!

[MIA]

Wait... Are people seriously debating who's the GOAT?
[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jqEL4CDWXR8[/youtube]

Im a Heat fan, and I appreciate what Lebron has done for us, but cmon guys... MJ just wins.

[FreeBalling]

A) No he didn't win 6 times in a row. He GAGGED and gave the Magic the series in 1995.

B) He lost THREE times in the first round including 2 sweeps. Are we seriously saying thats a better result than getting to the Finals carrying a horrific team?

I stand corrected, Jordan did play 17 regular season games in 1995 and did lose to the Magic in the playoffs. However, part of my point was about the FINALS and not the playoffs. Sorry, if that was unclear. Jordan never tasted defeat in the FINALS. That is impressive.

Was Jordan a flopper? There is a lot of acting going on in MIA. In Jordan's era there was full contact in the paint that sent players to the floor hard. I think the bigs in the past would have gotten in Lebron's head. You can see it on the court today when Lebron takes a semi-hard foul.

I will say Lebron is the best current player in today's NBA. Just wish he'd forget the acting lessons.

You aren't answering the question at hand. Why is it more impressive to get swept in the first round (Jordan lost three times in the 1st round, swept twice; LeBron has NEVER lost in the first round) than to lose in the Finals? Your agenda is evident and your arguments specious.

Jordan didn't need to flop. He had FT rates double any other perimeter player in the NBA. People don't recognize how tenuous the NBA was in the 80s. Stars were given the benefit of everything. People whine about star calls now have no CLUE what star calls look like. LBJ gets his face broken and doesn't go to the line.

You are bringing up a Jordan year in which he played 17 regular season games and wondering why they got beat? You seem smart, you know the answer to that question. However, teams get beat every year. The best team does not always win. Sounds odd saying that. Players get hurt or can not play for what ever reason. Would playing baseball affect team synergy? LOL


Comparing a second round playoff exit to winning 6 Larry O'Brien Championship Trophy seems odd that you would ask that question. A Championship is what every season is about and nothing less.

I do not know the answer to this question. "How many NBA players have 5 or more NBA rings and never lost in the finals? These are elite players whether you see my point or not. (There are smart people on the RealGM and I'm not that smart to know that answer, I can't even look it up.)

It seems to me Lebron is playing against the ghosts of NBA past for his spot in history. I am excited to see his final spot.

Cheers!

[PaulieWal]

Wait... Are people seriously debating who's the GOAT?

Most Heat fans here aren't saying LeBron is the GOAT (at least not yet and I don't think he will be, he probably will be a top3-5 GOAT when his career is over). It's just funny to see Bulls fans and other non-Heat fans come here to defend MJ as the GOAT.

[MIA]

Wait... Are people seriously debating who's the GOAT?

Most Heat fans here aren't saying LeBron is the GOAT (at least not yet and I don't think he will be, he probably will be a top3-5 GOAT when his career is over). It's just funny to see Bulls fans and other non-Heat fans come here to defend MJ as the GOAT.

I do admit, it is pretty entertaining lol

[PaulieWal]

Kobe was a black mamba and LBJ is a garter snake.

I didn't know Skip Bayless was on RealGM. Provide facts and stats to back up your rankings or stop talking. I will provide some to show that Kobe's prime is not even close to LeBron's.

Credit to Reservoirdawgs for this compilation:

Kobe Bryant Regular Season First 11 Seasons (784 games, 28379 minutes)
PPG: 24.3
FG%: 45.0
PER: 22.6
TS%: 55.3
eFG%: 48.2
TRB%: 8
AST%: 22.6
TOV%: 12.3
ORtg: 110.4

Lebron James Regular Season First 11 Seasons (842 games, 33276 minutes)
PPG: 27.5
FG%: 50.0
PER: 27.9
TS%: .583
eFG%: 53.3
TRB%: 10.9
AST%: 34.2
TOV%: 12.4
ORtg: 116.3

Lebron has a VERY clear advantage. In the same amount of seasons, Lebron played 4,897 more minutes as the #1 option on a terrible Cavs team. Even if we were to remove their first two seasons (when they were both teenagers) Lebron's advantage grows even more.

What about the postseason? I took their postseason averages from their 3rd season (Lebron first made the postseason in his third season).

Kobe Bryant Postseason Averages Third-Eleventh Season (132 games, 5595 minutes):
PPG: 27.1
FG%: 45.1
PER: 21.8
TS%: 53.9
eFG%: 48.2
TRB%: 7.7
AST%: 22.7
TOV%: 12.2
ORtg: 107.7

Lebron James Postseason Averages Third-Eleventh Seasons (158 games, 6717 minutes):
PPG: 28
FG%: 48.2
PER: 27.7
TS%: 57.8
eFG%: 51.9
TRB%: 12.2
AST%: 31.9
TOV%: 12.4
ORtg: 116

Again, the comparison isn't remotely close. Lebron enjoys a very large advantage in almost every metric (this is also with him being a #1 option and facilitator for every single year). RAPM also has Lebron enjoying a very sizeable difference when compared to Kobe.

And since we are talking about Lebron's 11 seasons when compared to Kobe's entire body of work, I'll also show Kobe from Age 20-34 averages:

Kobe Age 20-34:
PER: 23.7
TS%: 55.5
eFG%: 48.7
TRB%: 8.2
AST%: 24.7
TOV%: 11.6
ORtg: 111.3

Or Kobe's Six Best Seasons?
Kobe Bryant 2005-10:
PER: 24.7
TS%: 56.4
eFG%: 49.5
TRB%: 8.2
AST%: 24.9
TOV%: 11.1
ORtg: 113.6

As it stands, Kobe maybe a "Black Mamba" but LeBron is simply the better basketball player and it's not even close or debatable.

[Jon Connor]

Kobe was a black mamba and LBJ is a garter snake.

I didn't know Skip Bayless was on RealGM. Provide facts and stats to back up your rankings or stop talking. I will provide some to show that Kobe's prime is not even close to LeBron's.

Credit to Reservoirdawgs for this compilation:

Kobe Bryant Regular Season First 11 Seasons (784 games, 28379 minutes)
PPG: 24.3
FG%: 45.0
PER: 22.6
TS%: 55.3
eFG%: 48.2
TRB%: 8
AST%: 22.6

TOV%: 12.3
ORtg: 110.4

Lebron James Regular Season First 11 Seasons (842 games, 33276 minutes)
PPG: 27.5
FG%: 50.0
PER: 27.9
TS%: .583
eFG%: 53.3
TRB%: 10.9
AST%: 34.2
TOV%: 12.4
ORtg: 116.3

Lebron has a VERY clear advantage. In the same amount of seasons, Lebron played 4,897 more minutes as the #1 option on a terrible Cavs team. Even if we were to remove their first two seasons (when they were both teenagers) Lebron's advantage grows even more.

What about the postseason? I took their postseason averages from their 3rd season (Lebron first made the postseason in his third season).

Kobe Bryant Postseason Averages Third-Eleventh Season (132 games, 5595 minutes):
PPG: 27.1
FG%: 45.1
PER: 21.8
TS%: 53.9
eFG%: 48.2
TRB%: 7.7
AST%: 22.7
TOV%: 12.2
ORtg: 107.7

Lebron James Postseason Averages Third-Eleventh Seasons (158 games, 6717 minutes):
PPG: 28
FG%: 48.2
PER: 27.7
TS%: 57.8
eFG%: 51.9
TRB%: 12.2
AST%: 31.9
TOV%: 12.4
ORtg: 116

Again, the comparison isn't remotely close. Lebron enjoys a very large advantage in almost every metric (this is also with him being a #1 option and facilitator for every single year). RAPM also has Lebron enjoying a very sizeable difference when compared to Kobe.

And since we are talking about Lebron's 11 seasons when compared to Kobe's entire body of work, I'll also show Kobe from Age 20-34 averages:

Kobe Age 20-34:
PER: 23.7
TS%: 55.5
eFG%: 48.7
TRB%: 8.2
AST%: 24.7
TOV%: 11.6
ORtg: 111.3

Or Kobe's Six Best Seasons?
Kobe Bryant 2005-10:
PER: 24.7
TS%: 56.4
eFG%: 49.5
TRB%: 8.2
AST%: 24.9
TOV%: 11.1
ORtg: 113.6

As it stands, Kobe maybe a "Black Mamba" but LeBron is simply the better basketball player and it's not even close or debatable.

Why even bother dude? Kobe fans despise stats and actually backing up an argument.

Kobe fan arguments:
1. 5 rings
2. Eye test
3. Clutch
4. Killer instinct

Most Kobe fans were just told by the media that he's the best so they go with it.

[heatlespeatles]

Wait... Are people seriously debating who's the GOAT?
[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jqEL4CDWXR8[/youtube]

Im a Heat fan, and I appreciate what Lebron has done for us, but cmon guys... MJ just wins.

just because you're a Heat fan doesn't mean you are inclined to like Lebron. I know Heat fans who would take Prime Wade over Lebron and don't even like Lebron because they say he took over Wade's team so i don't get the point in saying "Im a Heat fan and MJ is GOAT"

And like PaulieWall said, most of us don't care about this comparison. We have Lebron. He is great, we appreciate his greatness. We don't care whether anyone considers him Goat or not. We just want to win.

[MIA]

Wait... Are people seriously debating who's the GOAT?
[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jqEL4CDWXR8[/youtube]

Im a Heat fan, and I appreciate what Lebron has done for us, but cmon guys... MJ just wins.

just because you're a Heat fan doesn't mean you are inclined to like Lebron. I know Heat fans who would take Prime Wade over Lebron and don't even like Lebron because they say he took over Wade's team so i don't get the point in saying "Im a Heat fan and MJ is GOAT"

And like PaulieWall said, most of us don't care about this comparison. We have Lebron. He is great, we appreciate his greatness. We don't care whether anyone considers him Goat or not. We just want to win.

Amen to that, brother.

[CobraCommander]

Wait... Are people seriously debating who's the GOAT?
[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jqEL4CDWXR8[/youtube]

Im a Heat fan, and I appreciate what Lebron has done for us, but cmon guys... MJ just wins.

just because you're a Heat fan doesn't mean you are inclined to like Lebron. I know Heat fans who would take Prime Wade over Lebron and don't even like Lebron because they say he took over Wade's team so i don't get the point in saying "Im a Heat fan and MJ is GOAT"

And like PaulieWall said, most of us don't care about this comparison. We have Lebron. He is great, we appreciate his greatness. .

Good post - Lebron is great and we all should enjoy watching him play... But you shouldn't even interact with anyone that would take prime wade over Lebron of any year. You can't trust a man that would take wade over lebron-

[MVJ82JAMES]

Kobe was a black mamba and LBJ is a garter snake.

I didn't know Skip Bayless was on RealGM. Provide facts and stats to back up your rankings or stop talking. I will provide some to show that Kobe's prime is not even close to LeBron's.

Credit to Reservoirdawgs for this compilation:

Kobe Bryant Regular Season First 11 Seasons (784 games, 28379 minutes)
PPG: 24.3
FG%: 45.0
PER: 22.6
TS%: 55.3
eFG%: 48.2
TRB%: 8
AST%: 22.6
TOV%: 12.3
ORtg: 110.4

Lebron James Regular Season First 11 Seasons (842 games, 33276 minutes)
PPG: 27.5
FG%: 50.0
PER: 27.9
TS%: .583
eFG%: 53.3
TRB%: 10.9
AST%: 34.2
TOV%: 12.4
ORtg: 116.3

Lebron has a VERY clear advantage. In the same amount of seasons, Lebron played 4,897 more minutes as the #1 option on a terrible Cavs team. Even if we were to remove their first two seasons (when they were both teenagers) Lebron's advantage grows even more.

What about the postseason? I took their postseason averages from their 3rd season (Lebron first made the postseason in his third season).

Kobe Bryant Postseason Averages Third-Eleventh Season (132 games, 5595 minutes):
PPG: 27.1
FG%: 45.1
PER: 21.8
TS%: 53.9
eFG%: 48.2
TRB%: 7.7
AST%: 22.7
TOV%: 12.2
ORtg: 107.7

Lebron James Postseason Averages Third-Eleventh Seasons (158 games, 6717 minutes):
PPG: 28
FG%: 48.2
PER: 27.7
TS%: 57.8
eFG%: 51.9
TRB%: 12.2
AST%: 31.9
TOV%: 12.4
ORtg: 116

Again, the comparison isn't remotely close. Lebron enjoys a very large advantage in almost every metric (this is also with him being a #1 option and facilitator for every single year). RAPM also has Lebron enjoying a very sizeable difference when compared to Kobe.

And since we are talking about Lebron's 11 seasons when compared to Kobe's entire body of work, I'll also show Kobe from Age 20-34 averages:

Kobe Age 20-34:
PER: 23.7
TS%: 55.5
eFG%: 48.7
TRB%: 8.2
AST%: 24.7
TOV%: 11.6
ORtg: 111.3

Or Kobe's Six Best Seasons?
Kobe Bryant 2005-10:
PER: 24.7
TS%: 56.4
eFG%: 49.5
TRB%: 8.2
AST%: 24.9
TOV%: 11.1
ORtg: 113.6

As it stands, Kobe maybe a "Black Mamba" but LeBron is simply the better basketball player and it's not even close or debatable.

Good post. Yes Kobe was great but not on Jordan or James level. The only player you could compare to James is Jordan and each of them have done something better then the other. It's a debate that will rage on for years but they are by far the two best and probably since they played in diff eras,diff positions, diff responsibilities they are probably even although I prefer James because he is a freak of nature.

[MVJ82JAMES]

Wait... Are people seriously debating who's the GOAT?
[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jqEL4CDWXR8[/youtube]

Im a Heat fan, and I appreciate what Lebron has done for us, but cmon guys... MJ just wins.

just because you're a Heat fan doesn't mean you are inclined to like Lebron. I know Heat fans who would take Prime Wade over Lebron and don't even like Lebron because they say he took over Wade's team so i don't get the point in saying "Im a Heat fan and MJ is GOAT"

And like PaulieWall said, most of us don't care about this comparison. We have Lebron. He is great, we appreciate his greatness. .

Good post - Lebron is great and we all should enjoy watching him play... But you shouldn't even interact with anyone that would take prime wade over Lebron of any year. You can't trust a man that would take wade over lebron-

Yea coo coo I would take Lebron Over Wade coming off Knee surgery any day and twice on sunday. Really any player in the Nba for that matter... Them are some weird heat fans

[Joao Saraiva]

Bulls had a great defensive trio: Rodman, Pippen and MJ. Low scoring games... LeBron has Bosh a C that provides 0 protection at the rim and old Wade defending great at times but at James Harden's level at other times.

Spoeltra vs PJ...

Yes LeBron played better than MJ. But the Bulls were just much better than the Heat.

Steve Kerr and Ron Harper vs Norris Cole + Chalmers at the PG, just to end my post.

[MVJ82JAMES]

yes that's obvious. WE need to put the right pieces together and structure it so that doesn't happen again and Lebron can win these 8 titles he promised... he is only 1/4 of the way there and this is no time to stop or think you got derailed.. Just a small hiccup in the road.