How good is prime Wilt Chamberlain in today's game?

[MacGill]

Edit..posting problems. Will post later from home.

[Mazter]

In the land of the blind One-eye is king. That was practically what Wilt was. In his first 7 seasons he had at least 4 inches and/or 40 pounds advantage over everybody in the league back then. There were just 17 guys who were 6-10 or bigger, and only Russell played all those 7 seasons. The only other offensive juggernaut at center in some of those first 7 years was Walt Bellamy. There was really no one to wear him down defensively, so he could feast on offense.

In today's game he would have guys like Cousins, Brook and Robin Lopez, Aldridge, Marc Gasol banging him the paint. There would be bench guys wearing him down. Every team has at least 2-3 guys of 6-11 and/or above 240 pounds. Big men are shooting better nowadays so we would need to come out of his comfort zone to defend them. He would need to put in more effort on both sides. 40+ minutes would be impossible. Shotblocking would be lower because of the heavy outside shooting. The lower pace would cause fewer possesions, so he would be shooting a lot less. This in combination with long rebounds and better fg% would give him also fewer rebound opportunities.

He would still be a great player but he wouldn't have a big impact today. Too much outside shooting he can't defend. Too much energy consuming on defending outside shots and PnR. Not to mention the hack-a-Wilt tactic which would take him out of the offense late in close games.

I guess he would average at most something like 25-14-3 with 3 blocks and 55% shooting.

[Warspite]

Wilts detractors always want to judge Wilt by 1960-63 and refuse to to use his prime. Should we only judge MJ as if his career ended in 1987? Magic in 1983? or how about LBJ in 2007?

Still yet if we look at Wilts sideshow team which was built to sell tickets and never to win games we see that Wilt almost won 3 titles in that span and played the Champs better than anyone else.

Its like Sterling building a all white team around Kevin Love and they still make the Finals every yr and we want to call Love a choker for not winning a title even though he isnt allowed to play with non white players.

Wilt didnt have a great FG% when he scored 50ppg. I dare anyone to find a NBA player that had a better FG% when they avged 50ppg.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Another reason why I think going off stats paints an incorrect picture of a player. In Wilts era, he was criticized for being the biggest, strongest player, and dunking over smaller guys. So Wilt, hearing these criticisms, incorrectly decided to show he had a well rounded game by shooting "skill shots" instead of just dunking over people a la Shaq.

If Wilt came up anytime in the 90's or later he wouldn't be doing fadeaways, he would play similar to Shaq and dunk over everyone and his shooting numbers would rise. The media was critical and painted Wilt as Goliath and without any skill.....

Well when I watch that highlight video I see Wilt dunking plenty and also many plays where he abuses his size for easy baskets. He certainly doesn't appear to me as a guy who didn't take advantage of his athletic gifts to score.

Also from what Wilt fans have told me and what statistics do in some way also support (high RS FG%) is that Wilt mostly stopped taking those low percentage perimiter shots in his later years and in some cases was in a garbage man type role where he would rarely look to actually create for himself and would only look to score on dunks or size mismatches where he could bully his way for easy layups.

Why then was his playoff FG% still so unimpressive in most of those latter years?

68 = 20.5ppg (p42) on 53%FG
69 = 12.6ppg (p42) on .545%FG

Shaq at 33 was averaging close to 19ppg in just 33mpg on 61%FG and when he first toned down his scoring (04) his FG% hit 59%

Low volume Shaq = 20ppg on 59%FG over 36mpg
Low volume Wilt = 18ppg on 54%FG over 47mpg

Pretty big gap especially considering the MPG difference.

[Notanoob]

I don't discount your hypothesis but I also don't think it is logical to assume that Wilt could play the power game at anywhere near the same effectiveness as Shaq.
Playing the power game as effectively as O'neal did requires one to be highly proficient in a huge number of skills. Some are obvious ones like footwork & ball handling and then countless other small/minute skills which most people don't even recognize.
Just because a guy may be a physical freak and displays some semblance of a handle does not mean he can utilize a power game like Shaq did. I mean if Javalle McGee started showing a handle and some ok looking footwork would we expect him to start dominating offensively like Shaq?

What separates Wilt and Shaq from everyone else is raw strength. I mean, Wilt was out-lifting Arnold Schwarzenegger on the set of Conan the Destroyer- McGee couldn't do that. These guys are simply stronger than anyone else they would face off against, regardless of era. He was absurdly strong.

[MacGill]

[/quote]
What exactly are you trying to imply here.....

In his high-volume years, '62-'66, he averaged 52% from the field, on 31.4 FG/game. With the average pace at 122.4 back then, you're looking at possessions ending in an average of 11.7 seconds.

Do you have any idea how fast that is? That's less than HALF THE SHOT CLOCK.

Is it that hard to believe that some of the shots he missed were simply a product of quick shots taken as a product of the times he played in?

Today, with everything slowed down considerably, he'd have a LOT more time to work in the post. Check Dipper 13's work with the shot charts, he shot 60% or thereabouts on post-ups. Shaun Livsington topped the league on post-ups with 60.7.... And he's obviously shooting far less than Wilt.

I think that with reduced pace and thereby reduced quick shots, there shouldn't be any reason he couldn't average 60% from the field on say 15-18 shot attempts.

You don't. I can't do anything to convince you, it seems, so agree to disagree.

What I am implying is that if he'd have such an advantage today as you put it and could shot 60%, and he played with these advantages in a time where defenses were much more simplistic, he sure as hell wasn't putting up jaw-dropping percentages. If he was able to do everything that his highlight reel footage would leave you to believe, why then couldn't he hit 60% every season?

You want to say it's pace....I am saying it's more shot selection and that his jumper/fade away and fingeroll were not as good as advertised in his HLV's. You're the one saying what an amazing finisher at the rim he is etc….not me. Yet it's pace? Tell me Ardee, how much different was the pace from 62-65 to 67?

Shaun Livingston is far more mobile than Wilt and has a much better jump shot and ability to finish, he's a guard. He also has a freakish length advantage per position probably as much or greater than Wilt except he isn't considered ultra-freaky by nba standards. You don't have bruisers guarding SL. Ardee, let's go back then to the full game footage available in the PC thread. LA Wilt, things slowed down, him missing simple fingerolls, lay-ups with this time as you state. He didn't have many double teams or athletic ¾'s helping, clogging the passing lanes in this footage. Simply put, when I've brought this up before (as you state you tired of the same old debates) you give excuses about his age or injuries to which I state, what the hell does that have to do with form and dribbling? And it certainly didn't harper his rebounding or man defense?

When did I say he'd take 10 FGA?[/quote]

This is my bad and a typo from trying to multi-task. He took 14.2 that year. I have some numbers mixed up which I'll own and correct.

I'm a little lost here. You think a guy who led the team in scoring, FGA AND assists isn't the focal point of the offense? Who do you think would be the focal point of that offense, I'm curious. Hal Greer? Luke Jackson? I'm going to dig up a quote for you.

To me it is clear that Wilt's team offenses in the early years were playing below capabilities in part due to his foul shooting, but also because they didn't get the ball into him enough. The culture back then was to push the tempo and get up as many shots as possible. We all know what Coach Hannum told Wilt in 1967, but what did he tell the others? The ball goes inside every single time.

Again, you haven't even watched the full series or the 67 run, just highlights. Jose Calderon also had high assists playing for the Raptors but I wouldn't say he's an elite PG all-time? I am also not saying that Wilt wouldn't score or be a top talent in the league…I've admitted he would numerous times. Your point is he would be best in league which means better than LBJ. I've also told you as the article points out, the ball goes into Wilt. He isn't bringing it up the court, isn't getting pressured as dribbling and the team was stacked where they had offensive threats. He got the ball, held it, made the pass and teammate converted. He wasn't a point-center for damn sakes.

He lost me when he stated that Wilt wasn't getting the ball enough. When you have a teammate that would need that many more shots that takes away from your team when he is already getting fed, I would question the 'why' behind that.

I talk about his efficiency, and you bring up his FGA? It should be impressive that he was this efficiency GIVEN his FGA. You lost me here.

Ok, let me say it this way. The league wasn't full of elite finishers, outside jumpers were taken, there was really no one in Wilt's stratosphere outside of Russell early on and yet for all these mismatches, post skills, fade aways, jumpers etc he had 4 of 6 years under .510 FG%? BTW, I again mistyped stating under .500 (my bad and rushing). Pace helped his scoring…..rebounding…..PPG….assists…..yet his FG% before his shot reductions weren't great for a man in his position because if he used the same thought process as he did in Philly, he could still score closer to the same clip. But they weren't and now you quoted a guy saying 'well give him the ball more'? So then, my conclusion of this is that having Wilt as your volume scorer isn't the recipe for success given that the rest of your team is shooting a lot worse than he is. This is why I believe he was asked to change his role. This is also why I don't have him in the same class as KAJ/Shaq as a big O anchor.

You think a modern 5 can't average 24/15 on 60%? Well, which 5 in the league right now is remotely close to Wilt? FWIW, the closest we've seen in the last 10 years is Dwight, and he averaged 21/14 on 59.3% during his 4 year prime.
Now if you don't agree that Wilt is considerably superior to Howard in every faucet of the game, I don't know where this discussion is going.

Again is this better than current LBJ which is your assertion???

Well understand that mobility in your big goes a lot further now which is why I believe Russell would be amazing defensively in today's nba. I also think Dwight is more mobile/athletic than Wilt but believe that Wilt was a defensive juggernaut. Wilt would easily be in the DPOY discussions along with his rebounding, again I don't dispute that. It was more man back in his time, a vertical game which Wilt was strong in. Laterally, Wilt would still be exposed to PNR defense and face the same troubles other bigs have when the opposing big has range. I think pound for pound I'd side with Wilt but Howard does have advantages.

1. Lol, he wasn't a point center. Early Wilt maybe….but he showed as he got larger (as some Wilt fans say he somehow lost his shooting touch) so did he lose his dribbling touch. He wasn't good enough with the ball to bring it up the court and face the pressure, LBJ can not only bring up the ball and defend it….he can pass, shoot, take a 3 or his man to the hole. Big Big difference here.
2. So Ardee, what's Wilt 67 stat line look like today adjusted for pace? And when was Dwight voted in as best player in the league?

[/quote]Ok now this is making me angry.

He shot under .500 for many seasons early on?

He shot under .500 for ONE year, his ROOKIE year. Since then he never dipped below 51%.[/quote]

This is correct and again, as I admitted earlier a typo. No problem owning up to it.

[/quote] How can you make those kinds of comments on his dribbling and shooting form? What footage have you seen that the rest of us haven't?

And what suggests he'd get stripped a lot? Again, see Dipper's numbers, everything suggests he'd have one of the lowest turnover rates for an offensive centerpiece in history.[/quote]

Same footage and I have asked repeatedly for answers from attached in the game footage thread. I posted full statements around technique used.

From what I can gather you think that the modern game means point-centers can't exist...

Umm, did you watch a single Bulls game this year? Joakim Noah did a poor man's Wilt impersonation and was first team All-NBA for it (deservedly).

Sure, he'd get doubled a lot. So did Dwight in his Orlando days and he got 22-23 ppg on close to 60% easily. And Wilt was a VASTLY superior passer.

What do you classify as a point-center Ardee? Is LBJ a point-forward for having the ball dumped into him? I guess where the disconnect here is that my opinion is that when you're an ATG and ahead of your time, modern this or that isn't doing all that much for you because, well you're already doing it and that's what makes you ahead of your time. Earlier Wilt had highlight footage of him running the break, hell so did KAJ/Shaq but you're aren't asking them to play point forward. DH did what he did with the help of the team make-up but are you going to tell me he's polished in the post offensively? Even with working with Hakeem?

[/quote]Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me here? If he's DPOY in 2014, that means he far surpasses LeBron's defensive impact, which is the point I'm making.[/quote]

Does that make him greater than LBJ? Can he guard one through 5 for instance? LBJ is even more diversified than Wilt and by position isn't set-up for that type of award. I don't see the point here. Noah isn't close to LBJ after winning it.

[/quote]
There's nothing to suggest he couldn't....

1. He could easily do a semi rich man's prime Dwight impersonation from the scoring side of things.
2. Noah did a very successful point-center job, and he's not half the player Wilt was.
3. Best rebounder in the league by far, best defender in the league by far (you said that too).

Sounds to me like someone worthy of being best in the league. If it doesn't to you, well, nothing more I can say to convince you.[/quote]

1. PPG without context….kinda like Wilt throughout his career. This is why Dwight will never be considered best in game. Not polished near enough.
2. Wilt only ever did half of what a point center should do by my definition – he also only averages between 10-12 points. Wilt is going to do 23/24 while doing this @ 60%.
3. Sure, and he'll work harder than ever with the elite finishing today. Still below LBJ Ardee no matter how you try to paint it, that's my point.

[penbeast0]

... he wouldn't have a big impact today....

I guess he would average something like 25-14-3 with 3 blocks and 55% shooting.

mmm. ok.

[RayBan-Sematra]

What separates Wilt and Shaq from everyone else is raw strength. I mean, Wilt was out-lifting Arnold Schwarzenegger on the set of Conan the Destroyer- McGee couldn't do that. These guys are simply stronger than anyone else they would face off against, regardless of era. He was absurdly strong.

#1. I don't really disagree with you. Shaq & Wilt are both far stronger then any C in the league today.
However my point still stands that it takes an incredible amount of skill to play the power game like Shaq did. People don't appreciate all the little skills that went into his game, that made him so unstoppable.

When watching Wilt highlights I don't often see him displaying the kind of power game Shaq had and in some clips when he posts up I don't nessasarily see him having the overall skills needed to play such an effective power game.
That doesn't mean he can't put the ball in the hoop but it might mean he can't put the ball in the hoop as effectively as Shaq did even if he was transported to this generation as a youngin.

Obviously I need to watch much more of Wilt and learn much more before I can say for certain if that is the case or not but as I said before I am far from certain right now that he could or couldn't do it.

Oh and Wilt got deeply into weight lifting especially after his NBA career so... I have no doubt that he was probably at his strongest in his last 2-3 years on the Lakers and perhaps even after his NBA career had ended.
Younger Wilt was notably skinnier then Lakers/Post NBA Wilt though I am sure he was still immensely strong even then.

[Notanoob]

Shaq at 33 was averaging close to 19ppg in just 33mpg on 61%FG and when he first toned down his scoring (04) his FG% hit 59%

Low volume Shaq = 20ppg on 59%FG over 36mpg
Low volume Wilt = 18ppg on 54%FG over 47mpg

Pretty big gap especially considering the MPG difference.

I think that it's a bit unfair to include Wilt's post-injury years, and especially his last two seasons when he basically never scored the ball, being used as essentially a defensive anchor and rebounder exclusively. If you do that, then you have Wilt averaging 25.6 PPG on 59%FG.

[MacGill]

Another reason why I think going off stats paints an incorrect picture of a player. In Wilts era, he was criticized for being the biggest, strongest player, and dunking over smaller guys. So Wilt, hearing these criticisms, incorrectly decided to show he had a well rounded game by shooting "skill shots" instead of just dunking over people a la Shaq.

If Wilt came up anytime in the 90's or later he wouldn't be doing fadeaways, he would play similar to Shaq and dunk over everyone and his shooting numbers would rise. The media was critical and painted Wilt as Goliath and without any skill.....

Really...how did you come to that conclusion? Even when Wilt himself stated that he should have played more like Shaq... he was star struck. If the earlier days affected his mental stamina, then the 90's would have destroyed him. He would have been consumed trying to prove he could shoot better than Jordan and would have been trying to invent the dreamshake part deux.

Look we don't know for certain but no one taught Russell how to play defense the way he did. To be selfless to the team the way he was. Case and point, Shaq 50 years from now will still have teammate drama and temper tantrems, but he'll still play ball like Shaq. Alot of this is instinct IMO. Even when you remove the dunking...Wilt never played the post game like O'Neal and he had professionals to help him exploit his advantages. Whether he chose to or not, the same mental roadblock would follow into whatever era he is placed into.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Shaq at 33 was averaging close to 19ppg in just 33mpg on 61%FG and when he first toned down his scoring (04) his FG% hit 59%

Low volume Shaq = 20ppg on 59%FG over 36mpg
Low volume Wilt = 18ppg on 54%FG over 47mpg

Pretty big gap especially considering the MPG difference.

I think that it's a bit unfair to include Wilt's post-injury years, and especially his last two seasons when he basically never scored the ball, being used as essentially a defensive anchor and rebounder exclusively. If you do that, then you have Wilt averaging 25.6 PPG on 59%FG.

Remember I am looking at their playoff stats after they stopped volume scoring.
If I take away Wilt's last 2 years then he is upgraded to 20ppg at 54%FG still over 47mpg
Not a big difference.
If I take away his last 3 years so the sample size is even (4 years each) then Wilt still only clocks in at 20ppg on 55%FG with 39%FT.

No matter how you look at it Shaq still has a huge edge as a low volume scorer.
He scored the same PPG as Wilt in nearly 12 less mpg on 4-5% better efficiency while probably facing more double teams/defensive pressure (Wilt overall played on deeper teams and in smaller offensive roles).

[ardee]

snip

Long post, and I really can't respond to it without reading my own stuff concurrently. Whenever you edit it, quote me and we'll continue.

[E-Balla]

Depends. If Wilt has a great coach he'd be the best player in the league easy. If not he could be as low as 3rd.

[Mazter]

... he wouldn't have a big impact today....

I guess at most he would average something like 25-14-3 with 3 blocks and 55% shooting.

mmm. ok.

I meant at best, edited my post.

But what good will those stats do you if you are ineffective in the 4th quarter because of poor foul shooting? What good will your presence in the paint do if the opponent is shooting lights out from the perimeter? Or if you have to defend away from the basket because the opposing center is a good shooter from midrange?

[Notanoob]

I meant at best, edited my post.

But what good will those stats do you if you are ineffective in the 4th quarter because of poor foul shooting?

I don't know, ask Shaq.

What good will your presence in the paint do if the opponent is shooting lights out from the perimeter?

I figured Heat fans would have realized the benefits of having a shot-blocking center, given their struggles against Roy Hibbert and Tim Duncan. There's a huge value in having guys like that defensively, it allows guys to stick to their man closer because they know that they have an eraser behind them.

Or if you have to defend away from the basket because the opposing center is a good shooter from midrange?

And how many starting centers can actually shoot mid range shots these days anyways?

[Exodus]

He would change the landscape of the NBA. You won't see teams playing this small ball crap anymore. You would need size and length to double up Wilt or he would score all day.

[G35]

Another reason why I think going off stats paints an incorrect picture of a player. In Wilts era, he was criticized for being the biggest, strongest player, and dunking over smaller guys. So Wilt, hearing these criticisms, incorrectly decided to show he had a well rounded game by shooting "skill shots" instead of just dunking over people a la Shaq.

If Wilt came up anytime in the 90's or later he wouldn't be doing fadeaways, he would play similar to Shaq and dunk over everyone and his shooting numbers would rise. The media was critical and painted Wilt as Goliath and without any skill.....

Really...how did you come to that conclusion? Even when Wilt himself stated that he should have played more like Shaq... he was star struck. If the earlier days affected his mental stamina, then the 90's would have destroyed him. He would have been consumed trying to prove he could shoot better than Jordan and would have been trying to invent the dreamshake part deux.

Look we don't know for certain but no one taught Russell how to play defense the way he did. To be selfless to the team the way he was. Case and point, Shaq 50 years from now will still have teammate drama and temper tantrems, but he'll still play ball like Shaq. Alot of this is instinct IMO. Even when you remove the dunking...Wilt never played the post game like O'Neal and he had professionals to help him exploit his advantages. Whether he chose to or not, the same mental roadblock would follow into whatever era he is placed into.

Because by the time the 90's came around there were other 7ftrs that made Wilt less unique than he was in the 60's. You don't seem to see the effect era plays on players. That's like saying Jackie Robinson would act the same way in the 1940's as he would now.

Players act completely differently based on the way they are handled now. Wilt was the pioneer at being the biggest and strongest in the league. Shaq had people who mentored him, in fact I'm sure he got some advice on how to handle himself from Wilt. Who did Wilt have? Wilt was ahead of his time and that do him any favors on the court, with the opposition, or the media. You see how Shaq and Lebron get hammered all the time because they were bigger and stronger than everyone else, Wilt was the first. This was no mental roadblock, it was uncharted territory.....

[CaliBullsFan]

Best player in the NBA. 30/13/3 defensive player of the year 3-4 blocks per game, but would need a great coach to curve his massive ego.

[Gregoire]

Wilt would be very similar to Shaq with better defense and stamina. With right mentatily - one of 2 best players in the league (with Lebron).

[MacGill]

Another reason why I think going off stats paints an incorrect picture of a player. In Wilts era, he was criticized for being the biggest, strongest player, and dunking over smaller guys. So Wilt, hearing these criticisms, incorrectly decided to show he had a well rounded game by shooting "skill shots" instead of just dunking over people a la Shaq.

If Wilt came up anytime in the 90's or later he wouldn't be doing fadeaways, he would play similar to Shaq and dunk over everyone and his shooting numbers would rise. The media was critical and painted Wilt as Goliath and without any skill.....

Really...how did you come to that conclusion? Even when Wilt himself stated that he should have played more like Shaq... he was star struck. If the earlier days affected his mental stamina, then the 90's would have destroyed him. He would have been consumed trying to prove he could shoot better than Jordan and would have been trying to invent the dreamshake part deux.

Look we don't know for certain but no one taught Russell how to play defense the way he did. To be selfless to the team the way he was. Case and point, Shaq 50 years from now will still have teammate drama and temper tantrems, but he'll still play ball like Shaq. Alot of this is instinct IMO. Even when you remove the dunking...Wilt never played the post game like O'Neal and he had professionals to help him exploit his advantages. Whether he chose to or not, the same mental roadblock would follow into whatever era he is placed into.

Because by the time the 90's came around there were other 7ftrs that made Wilt less unique than he was in the 60's. You don't seem to see the effect era plays on players. That's like saying Jackie Robinson would act the same way in the 1940's as he would now.

Players act completely differently based on the way they are handled now. Wilt was the pioneer at being the biggest and strongest in the league. Shaq had people who mentored him, in fact I'm sure he got some advice on how to handle himself from Wilt. Who did Wilt have? Wilt was ahead of his time and that do him any favors on the court, with the opposition, or the media. You see how Shaq and Lebron get hammered all the time because they were bigger and stronger than everyone else, Wilt was the first. This was no mental roadblock, it was uncharted territory.....

Yeah, like JR Smith, MWP (formerly known as Ron Artest) Dennis Rodman etc all didn't have 'advice' . A person is programmed from birth so while I agree that you can help change a person as they age, much of who you become is already instilled in you as an infant/child. How much advice has McGee gotten in today's world to not make bonehead plays? It has nothing to do with more/less talent versus each other and has everything to do with genetic/psychological make-up.

How much did the social times affect Russell's play on the court?
Why couldn't VC have that killer instinct like MJ from all this advice, even when they spoke?

Wilt suffered from insecurities, which to me is why he was so concerned about his personal stats. He also was a guy who preferred to be alone even after retirement and once his size was much more excepted. And regarding his height or what not, playing in a sport with other (taller than average individuals) should have provided some comfort as well we know he and Russell spoke quite a bit. By the time Wilt came into the league, other pro sports were in existence so I doubt no one had any conversation with him as lots of money was tied into him being the successor of the sport to put on the map......