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Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense

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Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#1 » by Rerisen » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:11 am

This series of analytical articles (below) felt very relevant to the Bulls current situation, as we ponder such things as trading Taj Gibson for Aaron Afflalo, or even Carmelo Anthony. Need not read it all to get the central point I'll summarize below.

The Valuing of defense: Part 2, Part 3, Part 4

The under appreciating of NBA players relative short primes, or common post age 30 declines, might be seen as a hobbyhorse of mine around here, but its something that has been very important - in a negative way - to our franchise, in failed signings such as Ben Wallace, Carlos Boozer, and Rip Hamilton. All these players have burned us, very much simply due to age decline.

Let's just look at two graphs from the piece before I run on any more (bigger versions in the links):

Image

The APM based curve corresponds nicely to other studies. Players are often already in the early stages of decline (late prime) by 30 and take a severe nose dive after 32.

Image

But here is something interesting. Defensive impact doesn't peak till much later, around 30, and doesn't tail off that badly till even 34 or beyond. If we think of elder statesman defenders like Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dikembe Mutombo affecting shots into his late 30s, or even Kurt Thomas plugging away admirably for us a few years ago, I think this analysis finds a lot of common sense at the eye test level.

You cannot teach size, and athletic erosion is going to affect precision based offensive skills, and also notably, smaller perimeter players (sorry BG), much more egregiously than it will affect big defensive specialists.

Relatedly, this site is very high on Taj Gibson (as most adv metrics), awarding him 6th man of the Year and 2nd Team All Defensive for his impacts in that area last year. It might give us some more food for thought on how fast we want to breakup up our frontcourt defensive tandem. Though Taj is soon heading into his 30s (like Afflalo and Melo) his particular specialty gives good reason to think he may remain at a higher impact level than they will, and will resist decline longer. Therefore, it should be our absolute last resort to move him, and if we can hang on to him, *and* acquire offensive upgrades, the future looks bright indeed.

Sixth Man of the Year – Taj Gibson (CHI)- A defensive stalwart winning this award? Have we lost our minds? Thanks to playing 2300 minutes with the tenth best Defensive RAPM in the entire NBA, Mr. Gibson provided over 10 of the Bulls wins according to SWAgR. That is mighty fine SWAgR off the bench. Facing the loss of Derrick Rose and eventually Luol Deng, Taj greatly upped his offensive usage from 18 to 23, while also tallying career high true shooting. With him on the court, the Bulls already stellar defense buckled down even tighter and their offense was better, too; the Bulls net rating improved by 4.1 points when he played. His 13 points, 7 boards and 1.4 blocks in 29 minutes per night don’t look shabby, and for all that, congratulations Taj Gibson! You are the inaugural gotBuckets.com Sixth Man of the Year!

Taj Gibson – He already warranted gotbuckets sixth man of the year award, as according to SWAgR, he was the NBA’s fifth most damaging defensive force this season, gaining the Bulls seven victories with his bucket-denying presence. -GotBuckets.AllDefenseTeams
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#2 » by kyrv » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:35 am

Rerisen wrote:This series of analytical articles (below) felt very relevant to the Bulls current situation, as we ponder such things as trading Taj Gibson for Aaron Afflalo, or even Carmelo Anthony. Need not read it all to get the central point I'll summarize below.

The Valuing of defense: Part 2, Part 3, Part 4

The under appreciating of NBA players relative short primes, or common post age 30 declines, might be seen as a hobbyhorse of mine around here, but its something that has been very important - in a negative way - to our franchise, in failed signings such as Ben Wallace, Carlos Boozer, and Rip Hamilton. All these players have burned us, very much simply due to age decline.

Let's just look at two graphs from the piece before I run on any more (bigger versions in the links):

Image

The APM based curve corresponds nicely to other studies. Players are often already in the early stages of decline (late prime) by 30 and take a severe nose dive after 32.

Image

But here is something interesting. Defensive impact doesn't peak till much later, around 30, and doesn't tail off that badly till even 34 or beyond. If we think of elder statesman defenders like Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dikembe Mutombo affecting shots into his late 30s, or even Kurt Thomas plugging away admirably for us a few years ago, I think this analysis finds a lot of common sense at the eye test level.

You cannot teach size, and athletic erosion is going to affect precision based offensive skills, and also notably, smaller perimeter players (sorry BG), much more egregiously than it will affect big defensive specialists.

Relatedly, this site is very high on Taj Gibson (as most adv metrics), awarding him 6th man of the Year and 2nd Team All Defensive for his impacts in that area last year. It might give us some more food for thought on how fast we want to breakup up our frontcourt defensive tandem. Though Taj is soon heading into his 30s (like Afflalo and Melo) his particular specialty gives good reason to think he may remain at a higher impact level than they will, and will resist decline longer. Therefore, it should be our absolute last resort to move him, and if we can hang on to him, *and* acquire offensive upgrades, the future looks bright indeed.

Sixth Man of the Year – Taj Gibson (CHI)- A defensive stalwart winning this award? Have we lost our minds? Thanks to playing 2300 minutes with the tenth best Defensive RAPM in the entire NBA, Mr. Gibson provided over 10 of the Bulls wins according to SWAgR. That is mighty fine SWAgR off the bench. Facing the loss of Derrick Rose and eventually Luol Deng, Taj greatly upped his offensive usage from 18 to 23, while also tallying career high true shooting. With him on the court, the Bulls already stellar defense buckled down even tighter and their offense was better, too; the Bulls net rating improved by 4.1 points when he played. His 13 points, 7 boards and 1.4 blocks in 29 minutes per night don’t look shabby, and for all that, congratulations Taj Gibson! You are the inaugural gotBuckets.com Sixth Man of the Year!

Taj Gibson – He already warranted gotbuckets sixth man of the year award, as according to SWAgR, he was the NBA’s fifth most damaging defensive force this season, gaining the Bulls seven victories with his bucket-denying presence. -GotBuckets.AllDefenseTeams


Great stuff.

I know this forum will implode if we don't get a glittery sexy name but if they amnesty Booz and sign a decent wing and keep the picks, bring Mirotic, I think they will be really good.

I had wondered if I was over valuing Taj. Based on this and his importance to the Thibstem, I maybe am not.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#3 » by Mech Engineer » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:38 am

The one thing about Taj is he has the least mileage for a 29 year old due to some odd reasons rather than the usual reasons a 29 year old would have. For reasons discussed before, Thibs kept Boozer playing a lot of minutes reducing his minutes.

And, his game also has developed/improved every year and thus his offensive impact is going to be at its peak in the next few years. Him and Noah are the only two guys who are used to Thibs's defensive schemes as anchors and have the maximum experience living through it. That cannot be taken lightly when you are comparing similar players from other teams.

IMO, if the goal is contending for a championship...you want almost perfect execution of schemes whether it is offense or defense and not having the look of "What/How should I do?" from 3/5ths of your rotation.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#4 » by kingkirk » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:43 am

So what you're saying is that Melo is going to be a bad contract in year 3?

:)
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#5 » by Susan » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:50 am

KingCuban wrote:So what you're saying is that Melo is going to be a bad contract in year 3?

:)


I'm sorry but your font was not big enough for this post.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#6 » by Rerisen » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:55 am

KingCuban wrote:So what you're saying is that Melo is going to be a bad contract in year 3?

:)


He might be a bad contract in year 1 to be technical. But that's only measured against LeBron, KD and such.

And teams certainly win titles with bad contracts, which doesn't preclude players still helping you a lot on the floor while being a few million overpaid. Dallas won paying Butler 10.5m and he gave them nothing in the playoffs.

But Taj Gibson in a starter role is certainly not a bad contract, and might be giving us Deng level impact, while making 8 million, instead of the 12 to 14 that similar level offensive sided players are making.

If we don't get Melo or Love, I still go after Afflalo. I just use every tool in the bag to get him without using Taj.

If all that fails, its time to do some hard thinking about Mirotic, or else spend all of next year letting them play it out to see who is part of the future and who isn't. Though Taj's value will decline each year going forward.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#7 » by kingkirk » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:56 am

Susan wrote:I'm sorry but your font was not big enough for this post.


I'm all good with Melo on 20m via S&T. We have little choice at this point.

If it gets done via cap space, my opinion changed.

We're in that 3-4 year window now.

Will that be enough given Lebron is in that window as well and OKC haven't even reached theirs? Time will tell.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#8 » by Chitownbulls » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:05 am

Keep taj, trade whatever for Afflalo....picks, Jimmy Butler. Having good bigs is crucial. Plus Taj has spent most of his career coming off the bench, he has some really good years left imo. His offensive game is only getting better too. Keep Mirotic overseas if we have too. Bring him over next year.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#9 » by Keller61 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:25 am

I'm not sure if Boozer's decline this year was really age-related or if he just mentally checked out.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#10 » by musiqsoulchild » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:44 am

Good work Re. Great articles.

Melo is a flawed stud. His net effect wins us a chip, if and only if our vaunted defense remains largely unaffected.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#11 » by Ron Johnson » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:10 pm

Many articles on this also in the Wages of Wins site which shows that for most players they drop off very badly after age 32.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#12 » by Ron Johnson » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:29 pm

I should add that is why I'm more in the Love camp (as Rose is too, if rumors can be believed) than in the Anthony camp. With Anthony, you probably get only a couple of good years, with Love you can probably count on several (barring injuries of course).
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#13 » by CousinOfDeath » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:37 pm

Well the good news is that when Carmelo's declining he'll still be scoring like, 20 ppg.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#14 » by Ice Man » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:26 pm

Rerisen wrote:The under appreciating of NBA players relative short primes, or common post age 30 declines, might be seen as a hobbyhorse of mine around here, but its something that has been very important - in a negative way - to our franchise, in failed signings such as Ben Wallace, Carlos Boozer, and Rip Hamilton. All these players have burned us, very much simply due to age decline.


I understand why fans resist believing this, but I sure as bleep hope that the FO finally understands.*

* This is not an argument against a Melo signing. He is good enough to be an exception.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#15 » by Mech Engineer » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:31 pm

Ice Man wrote:
Rerisen wrote:The under appreciating of NBA players relative short primes, or common post age 30 declines, might be seen as a hobbyhorse of mine around here, but its something that has been very important - in a negative way - to our franchise, in failed signings such as Ben Wallace, Carlos Boozer, and Rip Hamilton. All these players have burned us, very much simply due to age decline.


I understand why fans resist believing this, but I sure as bleep hope that the FO finally understands.*

* This is not an argument against a Melo signing. He is good enough to be an exception.


I wonder how much this will factor into salaries of players like David West, Bosh etc... Front Offices will get this eventually and the salaries for 31+ guys will slip especially on multi-year deals.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same reasons are why the Knicks will let go of Melo. It is really crazy to rebuild around a 30 year old as the centerpiece of the franchise when they were not successful a few years back.

I feel even LeBron might slow down in a few years with all his mileage as a #1 option. He might get a big contract like the Kobe Bryant one which is more for non-basketball reasons. People forget MJ missed a couple of years in the middle which extended his basketball life.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#16 » by kodo » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:36 am

Interesting stuff about defense, especially since older players get a lot of hate because they'll be too slow to defend.

But Melo's impending decline should be a real concern for Chicago. I'm a big believer in minutes played over age, and Melo will be starting with us in his 12th season.

How long do we expect his prime to be, at least good enough to be a Finals MVP? 14 seasons? 15 season? Those would be rare numbers for any player. In his 12th season, Jordan was almost done. He played 1 more season for us as a Bull and he retired. And Melo is far from Jordan.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#17 » by dumbell78 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:24 am

Gives me some real trepidation about trading Taj, really would love to see him start next year with us landing Melo and AA somehow. Also am curious how well he would play with Nikola coming in and Taj playing the center spot while Noah rests.

Really interesting numbers there.
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#18 » by dice » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:24 pm

CousinOfDeath wrote:Well the good news is that when Carmelo's declining he'll still be scoring like, 20 ppg.

and playing even worse defense. and being massively overpaid

i'll say it again: acquiring melo helps us in year 1 (only if done in S&T with boozer) and maybe year 2. after that he is a burden. so the only purpose of trading for him is to win a title quickly. and i don't think he even does that for us. year one is a tall order because derrick won't have played in the playoffs in FOUR YEARS. not to mention the chemistry that has to be built. the heat didn't even get that right in year one

let houston run the melo experiment. afflalo is a better trade option for us at one third of the price, and standing pat even has us in really good shape with mirotic and draft picks coming in
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#19 » by mj234eva » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:26 pm

dice wrote:standing pat even has us in really good shape with mirotic and draft picks coming in


In good shape for what, exactly?
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Re: Article: Aging curves, offense vs defense 

Post#20 » by dice » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:42 pm

mj234eva wrote:
dice wrote:standing pat even has us in really good shape with mirotic and draft picks coming in


In good shape for what, exactly?

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