
Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise

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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
ronnymac2 wrote:therealbig3 wrote:I must say, I was REALLY looking forward to the 05 Heat and the 05 Spurs matching up, I think that would have been an epic series. Sucks that Wade got hurt in the ECF though...a healthy Heat were better than the Pistons imo.
Shaq vs. Duncan without another great big man next to either...Duncan always had Robinson, and Shaq had Malone in 2004. Both were banged up in the 2005 playoffs — Shaq had a thigh injury, Duncan with the ankle — but they were both playing well when they were needed. Then you have early prime Manu vs. early prime Wade. Tony Parker and Eddie Jones. Haslem and Damon Jones were really good that year for MIA. Spurs of course had good role players as well.
DET vs. SAS was pretty sweet just because of the defense and the emergence of Manu, but Miami vs. San Antonio would have been an era-defining showdown in my opinion...
Except Shaq and Duncan already matched up in 2002 when D.Rob was hurt, and Duncan easily outplayed Shaq that series. We covered this. Duncan was easily the best big man in the 99 and 03 series too, even though he wasn't Shaq's main cover (or vice versa), and I wouldn't call 03 D.Rob a great big. He was on his last legs, and aside from game 1 he barely existed that series.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
Baller2014 wrote:Except Shaq and Duncan already matched up in 2002 when D.Rob was hurt, and Duncan easily outplayed Shaq that series. We covered this.
Shaq was seriously hobbled in that series so it isn't a good example.
Duncan faced a healthy Shaq in 01, 03 and 04.
Shaq badly outplayed Duncan in 01 (and Duncan had a very potent Robinson at his side).
In 03 Duncan barely outplayed Shaq.
In 04 Shaq again clearly outplayed Duncan.
So it is 2-1 in favor of Shaq when we are looking at the series when both were healthy.
Shaq was also not 100% in 99 and Duncan had a very good Robinson at his side.
Put a healthy 98 Shaq against 99 Duncan in a playoff series and take away Robinson from the Spurs and I bet Shaq easily comes out on top in that matchup by a clear margin.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
I'll start by saying that I fully agree Shaq at his peak was a better player than Duncan. I take Duncan overall, but peak I agree it's Shaq.
Now, with that caveat out of the way, the injury excuses with Shaq are tired. Shaq had no problems dominating the 1st, 3rd and 4th round of the playoffs while banged up. The fact he couldn't do it matched up on Duncan tells us something more. Shaq was almost always hobbled in his post 00 years after he put on weight (to help him dominate more), who cares? I'm judging guys on the careers they actually had, not what they might have been able to do if things went different.
In 04 Duncan was constantly double teamed by Malone and Shaq, because Rasho was useless. To say Shaq "outplayed" Duncan in 04 is misleading. He wasn't doing it alone. I also don't even know how accurate it is to say he "outplayed him" in 04. Despite having to contend with both Malone and Shaq in 04, here are their numbers:
Duncan: 20.7ppg, 12.2rpg, 3.3 apg, 534TS%
Shaq: 22.5, 14.5rpg, 2apg, 601TS%
It's not like Duncan wasn't doing pretty well in the circumstances, where he had no help. He played great D, and he hit what should have been the game winning shot in game 5, and incredible fall away jumper while being doubled by Malone and Shaq. His shooters were awful this year, which only made it easier for him to be doubled. It's not like 99, 02 and 03, where Duncan statistically kicked Shaq out of the water, despite Shaq having better team mates (notably one Kobe Bryant):
2002:
Duncan put up 29ppg, 17.2rpg, 4.6apg on 517TS%
Shaq put up 21.4ppg, 12.2rpg, 3.2apg on 487TS%
And this is with Duncan and Shaq as each others main covers for the series.
2003:
Duncan put up 28ppg, 11.8rpg, 4.8apg on 575TS%
Shaq put up 25.3ppg, 14.3rpg, 3.7apg on 592TS%
Closer stats, but Duncan was clearly outplaying Shaq overall, on D especially, and was just flat out abusing Shaq when he was sent to guard him. Here's a video of him dominating the close out game:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_iN6qwvoS8[/youtube]
1999:
Duncan put up 29ppg, 10.8rpg, 3.3apg on 600TS%
Shaq put up 23.8ppg, 13rpg, 0.5apg on 506TS%
And this was a series where Shaq had all-NBA Kobe putting up 21-6.5-3.5 and Glen Rice averaging 18ppg. Sure, Glen Rice didn't score efficiently, but look at Duncan's 2nd best player this series. D.Rob was putting up 13ppg and 6.5rpg.
I just tire of the "Oh, well Shaq was injured that series" excuses that seem to be invoked by his fanbase for every series he was outplayed. Tim Duncan was injured in 04, and you don't hear me crying about it. Shaq always had some niggling injuries in his later career, it was a product of his adding weight in order to become more dominant, but to argue it should be used as an excuse in these series is silly. Shaq had no problem dominating the 1st round in 02 as usual, and the very next round he put up 30-14 on the Kings on dominant efficiency. In the 02 finals he was even more dominant, putting up 36-12 on amazing efficiency. In 99 he put up 29-10-4-4 on great efficiency in the 1st round. So again, it's a case of injuries that are only ever invoked as having effected him in the Spurs series, and when it comes to all-time rankings I never hear Shaq fans say "well, we better take some points off Shaq for always being injured in the playoffs". Quite the opposite in fact. It's just a tired excuse, and a transparent one as well. Shaq wasn't at his peak in 02, but he was still prime Shaq, and he still had no trouble destroying the non-Duncan opponents in his wake.
Now, with that caveat out of the way, the injury excuses with Shaq are tired. Shaq had no problems dominating the 1st, 3rd and 4th round of the playoffs while banged up. The fact he couldn't do it matched up on Duncan tells us something more. Shaq was almost always hobbled in his post 00 years after he put on weight (to help him dominate more), who cares? I'm judging guys on the careers they actually had, not what they might have been able to do if things went different.
In 04 Duncan was constantly double teamed by Malone and Shaq, because Rasho was useless. To say Shaq "outplayed" Duncan in 04 is misleading. He wasn't doing it alone. I also don't even know how accurate it is to say he "outplayed him" in 04. Despite having to contend with both Malone and Shaq in 04, here are their numbers:
Duncan: 20.7ppg, 12.2rpg, 3.3 apg, 534TS%
Shaq: 22.5, 14.5rpg, 2apg, 601TS%
It's not like Duncan wasn't doing pretty well in the circumstances, where he had no help. He played great D, and he hit what should have been the game winning shot in game 5, and incredible fall away jumper while being doubled by Malone and Shaq. His shooters were awful this year, which only made it easier for him to be doubled. It's not like 99, 02 and 03, where Duncan statistically kicked Shaq out of the water, despite Shaq having better team mates (notably one Kobe Bryant):
2002:
Duncan put up 29ppg, 17.2rpg, 4.6apg on 517TS%
Shaq put up 21.4ppg, 12.2rpg, 3.2apg on 487TS%
And this is with Duncan and Shaq as each others main covers for the series.
2003:
Duncan put up 28ppg, 11.8rpg, 4.8apg on 575TS%
Shaq put up 25.3ppg, 14.3rpg, 3.7apg on 592TS%
Closer stats, but Duncan was clearly outplaying Shaq overall, on D especially, and was just flat out abusing Shaq when he was sent to guard him. Here's a video of him dominating the close out game:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_iN6qwvoS8[/youtube]
1999:
Duncan put up 29ppg, 10.8rpg, 3.3apg on 600TS%
Shaq put up 23.8ppg, 13rpg, 0.5apg on 506TS%
And this was a series where Shaq had all-NBA Kobe putting up 21-6.5-3.5 and Glen Rice averaging 18ppg. Sure, Glen Rice didn't score efficiently, but look at Duncan's 2nd best player this series. D.Rob was putting up 13ppg and 6.5rpg.
I just tire of the "Oh, well Shaq was injured that series" excuses that seem to be invoked by his fanbase for every series he was outplayed. Tim Duncan was injured in 04, and you don't hear me crying about it. Shaq always had some niggling injuries in his later career, it was a product of his adding weight in order to become more dominant, but to argue it should be used as an excuse in these series is silly. Shaq had no problem dominating the 1st round in 02 as usual, and the very next round he put up 30-14 on the Kings on dominant efficiency. In the 02 finals he was even more dominant, putting up 36-12 on amazing efficiency. In 99 he put up 29-10-4-4 on great efficiency in the 1st round. So again, it's a case of injuries that are only ever invoked as having effected him in the Spurs series, and when it comes to all-time rankings I never hear Shaq fans say "well, we better take some points off Shaq for always being injured in the playoffs". Quite the opposite in fact. It's just a tired excuse, and a transparent one as well. Shaq wasn't at his peak in 02, but he was still prime Shaq, and he still had no trouble destroying the non-Duncan opponents in his wake.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
Quick question for Duncan supporters. Hakeem was known for dominating or outplaying his HOF peers in the playoffs.
What happened to prime 28 year old Duncan getting shredded on defense by a 22 year old Amar'e Stoudimire against the Suns in the 2005 playoffs? Olajuwon never had a player go off for 37 pts on .611% TS on him for a series during his peak/prime.
What happened to prime 28 year old Duncan getting shredded on defense by a 22 year old Amar'e Stoudimire against the Suns in the 2005 playoffs? Olajuwon never had a player go off for 37 pts on .611% TS on him for a series during his peak/prime.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
Well actually Amare played the 5 spot, and Duncan played the 4, so it's misleading to say he matched up with Duncan. Plus that's the most empty 37ppg you'll ever see. Amare did nothing on D so he could focus wholly on offense, and it was one of the reasons the Spurs won. Trust me, the Spurs would rather have had Duncan and his 27-14-3-2 on 591.TS% and his smothering D that series than Amare's gaudy ppg #'s. Duncan's actual man that series, Marion, was totally shut down by him, going from an all-nba team 19-11-2-2-1.5 on 556.TS% in the regular season to a shocking 7.8ppg, 10.8rpg, 1apg, 1.2bpg and 1.4spg on a horrid 412.TS%
Duncan is quite famous for upping his game in the playoffs as it happens, like the time he was one dumb foul away from carrying a starting line-up of 3 swing men and Parker to a 7 game series win over the stacked Mavs teams. Duncan didn't have a single other big to help him that series. Not one. He basically activated beast mode and almost won it for them anyway, putting up 32-12-4 on 615.TS%.
Duncan is quite famous for upping his game in the playoffs as it happens, like the time he was one dumb foul away from carrying a starting line-up of 3 swing men and Parker to a 7 game series win over the stacked Mavs teams. Duncan didn't have a single other big to help him that series. Not one. He basically activated beast mode and almost won it for them anyway, putting up 32-12-4 on 615.TS%.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
90sAllDecade wrote:Quick question for Duncan supporters. Hakeem was known for dominating or outplaying his HOF peers in the playoffs.
I think you're applying Hakeem's 2 year championship peak accross a 17 year career.
If you want to say which player peaked the highest, that's one thing. If you're saying you want that player more for 17 years, that's quite another.
90sAllDecade wrote:What happened to prime 28 year old Duncan getting shredded on defense by a 22 year old Amar'e Stoudimire against the Suns in the 2005 playoffs? Olajuwon never had a player go off for 37 pts on .611% TS on him for a series during his peak/prime.
LOL. You're picking a series the Spurs won 4-1 as an example of Duncan being bad? I never felt for a moment that the Spurs would lose to the Nash-led Suns in any year.
Here's their respective stats from that series:
Duncan ORtg123 DRtg111 USG29.3 PTS27.4 REB13.8 AST3.2 BLK0.6 BLK1.8
Amare ORtg121 DRtg118 USG37.5 PTS37.0 REB9.8 AST1.4 STL1.0 BLK1.6
Despite Amare's gaudy point totals and astronomical USG%, he still had an ORtg very close to Duncans. But defensively and in terms of rebounding, there's no contest who was the more valuable player.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
magicmerl wrote:I think you're applying Hakeem's 2 year championship peak accross a 17 year career.
If you want to say which player peaked the highest, that's one thing. If you're saying you want that player more for 17 years, that's quite another.
That's the thing that most people looked at first, that 2 years and how Olajuwon outplayed Robinson and Shaq that year. I was one of those people who believed that because of that performance he must have been better than them period (this poll started out with Olajuwon way out in front). But once you start to look into the little details and how long it took for Olajuwon to even win his first title then you would clearly want Duncan or Shaq just for their longevity and 9 championships between them.
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal 

Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
baki wrote:magicmerl wrote:I think you're applying Hakeem's 2 year championship peak accross a 17 year career.
If you want to say which player peaked the highest, that's one thing. If you're saying you want that player more for 17 years, that's quite another.
That's the thing that most people looked at first, that 2 years and how Olajuwon outplayed Robinson and Shaq that year. I was one of those people who believed that because of that performance he must have been better than them period (this poll started out with Olajuwon way out in front). But once you start to look into the little details and how long it took for Olajuwon to even win his first title then you would clearly want Duncan or Shaq just for their longevity and 9 championships between them.
Yes because Shaq or Duncan would have won earlier in the same circumstances.

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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
Shot Clock wrote:baki wrote:magicmerl wrote:I think you're applying Hakeem's 2 year championship peak accross a 17 year career.
If you want to say which player peaked the highest, that's one thing. If you're saying you want that player more for 17 years, that's quite another.
That's the thing that most people looked at first, that 2 years and how Olajuwon outplayed Robinson and Shaq that year. I was one of those people who believed that because of that performance he must have been better than them period (this poll started out with Olajuwon way out in front). But once you start to look into the little details and how long it took for Olajuwon to even win his first title then you would clearly want Duncan or Shaq just for their longevity and 9 championships between them.
Yes because Shaq or Duncan would have won earlier in the same circumstances.
Well that's the thing, both Duncan and Shaq came into teams that weren't lightening up the league either.
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal 

Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
baki wrote:magicmerl wrote:I think you're applying Hakeem's 2 year championship peak accross a 17 year career.
If you want to say which player peaked the highest, that's one thing. If you're saying you want that player more for 17 years, that's quite another.
That's the thing that most people looked at first, that 2 years and how Olajuwon outplayed Robinson and Shaq that year. I was one of those people who believed that because of that performance he must have been better than them period (this poll started out with Olajuwon way out in front). But once you start to look into the little details and how long it took for Olajuwon to even win his first title then you would clearly want Duncan or Shaq just for their longevity and 9 championships between them.
SIGH.
Duncan would have had exactly zero titles heading into his 10th year too if you swapped him with Hakeem. Not a thing he could have done about it. You don't have the team, the organization, the coaches. The league is dominated by legends. Dudes are doing coke in your lockerroom, your best teammate is Otis Thorpe, and your coach has a career long losing record. Good luck with that.
The difference is that if Duncan's career follows the same pattern it did in his real career, there is a very good possibility he NEVER wins a title, or an MVP. Hakeem exploded long after Duncan had declined to great but no longer legendary level of play. 19-11 sort of stuff. That wouldn't have won an MVP, and it couldn't have carried some more weakish rosters to a couple of titles. Then there would be 3 more years of Jordan kicking everybody's butt while an aging Timmy was annually being surrounded by even older and more decrepit teammates. So really his only shot would have come at age 36 or so, trying to unseat the younger version of himself and Admiral. Then its right into Shaq and Kobe.
Along the way Timmy is nowhere near the lock to get annual All NBA and All Defense honors against Mailman and Barkley, and then Admiral and Ewing, and in fact probably has little shot as he begins to age just as Mourning and Deke and Shaq are coming on.
Flip careers, and things aren't nearly so rosy.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
baki wrote:Shot Clock wrote:baki wrote:
That's the thing that most people looked at first, that 2 years and how Olajuwon outplayed Robinson and Shaq that year. I was one of those people who believed that because of that performance he must have been better than them period (this poll started out with Olajuwon way out in front). But once you start to look into the little details and how long it took for Olajuwon to even win his first title then you would clearly want Duncan or Shaq just for their longevity and 9 championships between them.
Yes because Shaq or Duncan would have won earlier in the same circumstances.
Well that's the thing, both Duncan and Shaq came into teams that weren't lightening up the league either.
Ok, being friendly here, am assuming you are younger/newer than Tim Duncan to the NBA, which is getting pretty easy to be anymore.

Anyway, no, the Spurs had been a great team for most of a decade. Admiral was a Top 25 player of all time. Gregg Popovich just took over. Admiral gets hurt, Pop is widely seen as intentionally tanking the reminder of the season to get Duncan in the draft. It works. But they were in no way a losing franchise. They'd been one of the winningest franchises of the 90s. Then all of a sudden Admiral is back, Duncan arrives, Pop settles in, and bam.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
Maybe Duncan wouldn't have won a title on those Rockets prior to 94, but the Rockets would have been better, that's for sure. I know that because on the 3 occasions we got to see prime Duncan lead a bad team (01-03) the team was a contender twice and a champion once. I know Hakeem couldn't do that prior to his late peak in 93, because he had a whole bunch of chances to do it, and never could.
When I want to find out who is a better weight lifter, I look to see how much they can lift consistently. Duncan lifted 1000 pounds 3/3 times, with no spotter. I don't know definitively if he could have lifted it more than 3 times, because he was only given 3 chances to do it over his 10 year prime. But when the chances came, he did it. Hakeem had over half a dozen chances to do it prior to 93, and he basically lifted between 600 and 800 pounds each time, even though he had 2 spotters. He couldn't lift that much basically. Nobody is denying Duncan generally had better team mates than Hakeem, I agree that he did, and don't blame Hakeem for not winning a title prior to 94. I blame him for leading his team to repeatedly crappy results multiple years, often with better help than Duncan had, and for being a locker room cancer while he was doing it.
When I want to find out who is a better weight lifter, I look to see how much they can lift consistently. Duncan lifted 1000 pounds 3/3 times, with no spotter. I don't know definitively if he could have lifted it more than 3 times, because he was only given 3 chances to do it over his 10 year prime. But when the chances came, he did it. Hakeem had over half a dozen chances to do it prior to 93, and he basically lifted between 600 and 800 pounds each time, even though he had 2 spotters. He couldn't lift that much basically. Nobody is denying Duncan generally had better team mates than Hakeem, I agree that he did, and don't blame Hakeem for not winning a title prior to 94. I blame him for leading his team to repeatedly crappy results multiple years, often with better help than Duncan had, and for being a locker room cancer while he was doing it.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
90sAllDecade wrote:Quick question for Duncan supporters. Hakeem was known for dominating or outplaying his HOF peers in the playoffs.
What happened to prime 28 year old Duncan getting shredded on defense by a 22 year old Amar'e Stoudimire against the Suns in the 2005 playoffs? Olajuwon never had a player go off for 37 pts on .611% TS on him for a series during his peak/prime.
The Spurs actually decided to run with the Suns, beating them at their own game. They let Stoudemire score, preventing Duncan from getting into foul trouble and enabling him to keep the other Suns in check while having the whole team outscore the Suns by better offense (as they knew that the Suns couldn't defend them). As has been said before: It worked well as the Spurs quite easily won the series in 5 games.
One's for sure: Duncan is not one of the best all-time great man-to-man defenders. He often was hidden from the opponent star player (he wasn't defending Dirk often either. Part of it is Duncan playing center on D near to the basket, while Dirk, Stoudemire and Garnett are doing their stuff on offense from the mid-range) to prevent him from foul trouble as they needed him to play 40+ minutes per game and providing some offense. That's the way many teams go. With a player like Duncan whose strength is protecting the basket and providing help defense (that's where he's one of the very best) and who isn't interested in his own stats or in outplaying an individual opponent, it doesn't matter that he might get lit up in numbers. The overall team's score is was mattered, and for many occasions it worked so well. It looks great that Stoudemire outscored him but in the end it was futile. The Suns were far from beating the Spurs that year. In 2007 it was different, even without Stoudemire outscoring Duncan. Then they might have actually needed Horry provoking the Suns and the subsequent suspensions of Stoudemire and Diaw that made the Spurs win the decisive 5th game of that series.
Don't forget: It's team sports, especially with the Spurs. Individual numbers are not of their concern.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
90sAllDecade wrote:Quick question for Duncan supporters. Hakeem was known for dominating or outplaying his HOF peers in the playoffs.
Yes, in '94 and '95. Outside of those two years the only one that comes to mind is '86 Kareem. Hakeem was not slaughtering HOF candidates year after year with his team failing him.
90sAllDecade wrote:What happened to prime 28 year old Duncan getting shredded on defense by a 22 year old Amar'e Stoudimire against the Suns in the 2005 playoffs? Olajuwon never had a player go off for 37 pts on .611% TS on him for a series during his peak/prime.
That's one of the few times where I felt Duncan's defense failed in the playoffs, the other time being the 01 Lakers and 06 Mavs. Besides, no one is crediting Duncan as a guy whose peak absolutely dwarfs everyone else. His strongest attributes are his stability and consistency which gives his team a much bigger window for contention than anyone else. Duncan even at his peak is not a guy who can guarantee a title like 00 Shaq or 94 Hakeem, but in the long run he will give his team a lot more fighting chances.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
Duncan at his peak is comparable to peak Hakeem anyway. I'd understand people taking Hakeem, but what Duncan did in 02 and 03 was pretty amazing in terms of carrying trash.
As I noted, Marion was Duncan's man at the 4 spot, and Duncan completely shut him down in 05 (plus, all the other stuff people said about this).
As I noted, Marion was Duncan's man at the 4 spot, and Duncan completely shut him down in 05 (plus, all the other stuff people said about this).
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
Winsome Gerbil wrote:baki wrote:magicmerl wrote:I think you're applying Hakeem's 2 year championship peak accross a 17 year career.
If you want to say which player peaked the highest, that's one thing. If you're saying you want that player more for 17 years, that's quite another.
That's the thing that most people looked at first, that 2 years and how Olajuwon outplayed Robinson and Shaq that year. I was one of those people who believed that because of that performance he must have been better than them period (this poll started out with Olajuwon way out in front). But once you start to look into the little details and how long it took for Olajuwon to even win his first title then you would clearly want Duncan or Shaq just for their longevity and 9 championships between them.
Duncan would have had exactly zero titles heading into his 10th year too if you swapped him with Hakeem. Not a thing he could have done about it. You don't have the team, the organization, the coaches. The league is dominated by legends. Dudes are doing coke in your lockerroom, your best teammate is Otis Thorpe, and your coach has a career long losing record. Good luck with that.
The difference is that if Duncan's career follows the same pattern it did in his real career, there is a very good possibility he NEVER wins a title, or an MVP. Hakeem exploded long after Duncan had declined to great but no longer legendary level of play. 19-11 sort of stuff. That wouldn't have won an MVP, and it couldn't have carried some more weakish rosters to a couple of titles. Then there would be 3 more years of Jordan kicking everybody's butt while an aging Timmy was annually being surrounded by even older and more decrepit teammates. So really his only shot would have come at age 36 or so, trying to unseat the younger version of himself and Admiral. Then its right into Shaq and Kobe.
You can write all the would-haves and should-haves that you want but Duncan clearly has achieved more than Olajuwon ever had in a 17 year career which is what this thread has been about.
Duncan with 5 Championships over 17 years > Olajuwon with 2 Championships over 17/18 years
That is pretty much all that needs to be said about answering this title topic.
Please follow my past posts on this to understand how I have come to this conclusion rather letting me repeat myself.
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal 

Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
- baki
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
Winsome Gerbil wrote:baki wrote:Shot Clock wrote:
Yes because Shaq or Duncan would have won earlier in the same circumstances.
Well that's the thing, both Duncan and Shaq came into teams that weren't lightening up the league either.
Ok, being friendly here, am assuming you are younger/newer than Tim Duncan to the NBA, which is getting pretty easy to be anymore.
Anyway, no, the Spurs had been a great team for most of a decade. Admiral was a Top 25 player of all time. Gregg Popovich just took over. Admiral gets hurt, Pop is widely seen as intentionally tanking the reminder of the season to get Duncan in the draft. It works. But they were in no way a losing franchise. They'd been one of the winningest franchises of the 90s. Then all of a sudden Admiral is back, Duncan arrives, Pop settles in, and bam.
GOODNESS NO.
96/97 Spurs were a mess with 37 year old Dominique Wilkins top scoring and losing 13 out of 15 games AT THE START OF THE SEASON WITH BOB HILL! you think Wilks and team wanted to tank? They took Robinson's loss (and to a lesser extend Sean Elliot's loss also to a season ending injury) BADLY that was what happened.
You know what Duncan did when he came into the league on a team that had Robinson, a serviceable Avery Johnson and Chuck Persons, Elliot, Del Negro, Perdue and Monty Williams?
He topped scored all of them, led with the most rebounds and was second to Avery Johnson in assists. You make it sound like Duncan was joining a playoff ready team just because people expected Robinson to be the same player coming back from injury.
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal 

Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
- Winsome Gerbil
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
baki wrote:Winsome Gerbil wrote:baki wrote:
That's the thing that most people looked at first, that 2 years and how Olajuwon outplayed Robinson and Shaq that year. I was one of those people who believed that because of that performance he must have been better than them period (this poll started out with Olajuwon way out in front). But once you start to look into the little details and how long it took for Olajuwon to even win his first title then you would clearly want Duncan or Shaq just for their longevity and 9 championships between them.
Duncan would have had exactly zero titles heading into his 10th year too if you swapped him with Hakeem. Not a thing he could have done about it. You don't have the team, the organization, the coaches. The league is dominated by legends. Dudes are doing coke in your lockerroom, your best teammate is Otis Thorpe, and your coach has a career long losing record. Good luck with that.
The difference is that if Duncan's career follows the same pattern it did in his real career, there is a very good possibility he NEVER wins a title, or an MVP. Hakeem exploded long after Duncan had declined to great but no longer legendary level of play. 19-11 sort of stuff. That wouldn't have won an MVP, and it couldn't have carried some more weakish rosters to a couple of titles. Then there would be 3 more years of Jordan kicking everybody's butt while an aging Timmy was annually being surrounded by even older and more decrepit teammates. So really his only shot would have come at age 36 or so, trying to unseat the younger version of himself and Admiral. Then its right into Shaq and Kobe.
You can write all the would-haves and should-haves that you want but Duncan clearly has achieved more than Olajuwon ever had in a 17 year career which is what this thread has been about.
Duncan with 5 Championships over 17 years > Olajuwon with 2 Championships over 17/18 years
That is pretty much all that needs to be said about answering this title topic.
Please follow my past posts on this to understand how I have come to this conclusion rather letting me repeat myself.
Unfortunately you seem confused about what this thread is actually about. Its not about Tim Duncan getting lucky enough to be drafted onto the Pop n Admiral 90s Spurs instead of the coke and cheap 80s Rockets.
Its about removing those players entirely from those environments. Strip Duncan of Pop, strip him of Admiral and Manu and Parker. Strip Hakeem of his team as well. Now take those two players, in themselves, without the teammates and organizations that aided or hindered their accomplishments. Judge them for themselves, and decide which one of them, with NONE of their real life surroundings, would be a better individual player to start a franchise with. Who would do better in a mythical anonymous 3rd party setting.
In order to answer the question posed you absolutely have to be able to see the players themselves clearly through their surroundings. You can't just say Ron Harper 4 titles! Mitch Richmond 1 title! Ron > Mitch. One way to find that clarity is to flip the two players into the other's position/team, and ponder how things would have went. If Player A is better than Player B, then Player A should have done better in both situations. If that's not true...well then you get a 13 page thread.
Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
- Winsome Gerbil
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise
baki wrote:He topped scored all of them, led with the most rebounds and was second to Avery Johnson in assists. You make it sound like Duncan was joining a playoff ready team just because people expected Robinson to be the same player coming back from injury.
No, I make it sound like he was joining anything but a losing franchise. I make it sound like he was joining a long term perennial power used to winning, teamed with not only a HOFer, but a classy nice guy HOFer who politely got out of the way rather than Kobeing him, and coached by a coach now thought of as one of the 4 best of all time.
You on the other hand make it sound like he headed into distressed circumstances. Those circumstances were about as far from distressed as any #1 pick has ever had.