Top 100 Project Pre-Lists

[Basketballefan]

Rough draft of my list....

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Tim Duncan
5. Shaquille O’Neal
6. Wilt Chameberlain
7. LeBron James
8. Magic Johnson
9. Larry Bird
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

11. Kevin Garnett
12. Julius Erving
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kobe Bryant
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone

21. Bob Petitt
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Steve Nash
24. Walt Frazier
25. Patrick Ewing
26. Rick Barry
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Scottie Pippen
29. Paul Pierce
30. Elgin Baylor

31. John Stockton
32. Jason Kidd
33. George Gervin
34. Artis Gilmore
35. Chris Paul
36. John Havichek
37. Gary Payton
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Dwight Howard
40. Kevin Mchale

41. Robert Parish
42. Bob Lanier
43. Dave Cowens
44. Willis Reed
45. Dominque Wilkins
46. Alex English
47. Ray Allen
48. Kevin Johnson
49. Tracy McGrady
50. Kevin Durant


Maybe overrating Parish and Pierce a bit. Also I dont know if I should put Reed outside my top 50. His peak was really good but his longevity is really lacking.

Finally, i also thinking putting Kareem over Jordan.

I like the fact that you didn't put Durant too high, some are already willing to put him top 30 which seems clearly too high in my book as he only played 7 seasons.

[Quotatious]

You spelled No. 49's name wrong. It says "Adrian Dantley."

No he didn't. (And yes, I've read all of your arguments on Dantley. )

Guys, I totally expected someone to call me out on that, so it's all fine. I thought that I probably overrate him, but I just wanted him to get some credit for his combination of scoring volume/efficiency, which is almost second to none. Pretty solid longevity, too. How it translated (or rather didn't translate...) to efficient team offense, and his lack of an all-around game, is a different story...

Anyway, I realize that it would be extremely difficult to justify ranking him that high, and as I've said, my list is really tentative, so I'm absolutely willing to change that.

I take more offense to his lofty ranking of Dwight Howard. But it's his rankings, and I applaud it;

Is it really that lofty? I'm not a fan of his, but this guy was a top tier superstar, a top 5 player (arguably top 3) for a few straight years, even arguably the best for one season (2011), and his longevity at this point isn't bad, if you compare him to a few other players who rank close to him, on my list (like his contemporaries CP3 or KD, plus guys like Zo, T-Mac and McHale), it doesn't seem that bad, at least to me.

I'm still figuring out a top 20 that I'd be satisfied with...

No need to bang your head, it's not an easy task by any means. . I'm not satisfied with my list, either.

Rough draft of my list....

I like your list. Obviously disagree with a few things (for instance, I have Hakeem over Wilt), but it seems to be pretty solid.

Maybe overrating Parish and Pierce a bit. Also I dont know if I should put Reed outside my top 50. His peak was really good but his longevity is really lacking.

Yeah, ranking Reed is tough. I feel like I should've put him right there with Cowens and Unseld (Reed likely had the best peak and prime, but the worst longevity of the three).

Oh, and I love seeing Truth in the top 30. That's my guy, and I think it's too high, but obviously it also depends on what criteria you're using.

[therealbig3]

Haven't really looked at my list past the top 15 since the last top 100, so anything beyond that is probably really out of date and is subject to change:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Magic Johnson
6. Tim Duncan
7. Kevin Garnett
8. LeBron James
9. Bill Russell
10. Wilt Chamberlain
11. Larry Bird
12. Julius Erving
13. Karl Malone
14. Dirk Nowitzki
15. Kobe Bryant
16. David Robinson
17. Oscar Robertson
18. Jerry West
19. Charles Barkley
20. Dwyane Wade
21. Steve Nash
22. Scottie Pippen
23. Patrick Ewing
24. Moses Malone
25. Bob Pettit
26. Rick Barry
27. John Stockton
28. Clyde Drexler
29. Walt Frazier
30. Artis Gilmore
31. Kevin McHale
32. Isiah Thomas
33. Jason Kidd
34. Gary Payton
35. Dwight Howard
36. Chris Paul
37. Paul Pierce
38. Tracy McGrady
39. Alonzo Mourning
40. George Gervin
41. John Havlicek
42. Elgin Baylor
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Kevin Johnson
45. Kevin Durant
46. Reggie Miller
47. Willis Reed
48. Bob McAdoo
49. Ray Allen
50. Bob Lanier

I think I'm a lot lower on Havlicek and Baylor than most people. I also think I'm underrating Stockton a lot, based on the new data that's come out on him. I think he should probably make my top 25, maybe even the top 20...I never would have considered that before, but his longevity and his impact is pretty hard to ignore.

[lorak]

My top 25. Maybe some things look stupid (Oscar in top 3, Stockton over Malone), but that's how I see it after all discussions and games watched.

1 Michael Jordan
2 Hakeem Olajuwon
3 Oscar Robertson
4 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 Shaquille O'Neal
6 LeBron James
7 Larry Bird
8 Magic Johnson
9 Julius Erving
10 Kevin Garnett
11 Tim Duncan
12 Bill Russell
13 Wilt Chamberlain
14 Kobe Bryant
15 Charles Barkley
16 Dirk Nowitzki
17 David Robinson
18 Patrick Ewing
19 Jerry West
20 Steve Nash
21 John Stockton
22 Karl Malone
23 Jason Kidd
24 Moses Malone
25 Rick Barry

[Mutnt]

I'm just curious, what did Duncan do specifically, aside from adding a few extra (not tryna imply these are meaningless) years to boost his longevity, to propel himself into most people's Top 5 since he was a consensus #8 player the last time this project was done, which was like 3 years ago.

[Baller2014]

I don't think he was rated properly back then, and maybe a lot of people appreciate his game more now?

I look forward to pointing out all the reasons I disagree with Lorak's list, that's for sure.

[Quotatious]

I look forward to pointing out all the reasons I disagree with Lorak's list, that's for sure.

I actually like his list. He's just one of the most unconventional (but IMO in a good way) posters that we have on the PC board, and his methodology varies greatly from most of the other posters. Without knowing what his rankings are based on, it wouldn't make much sense to crticize him. I don't really agree with him that often, but I have a lot of respect for his originality and offbeat opinions. Seems like he has it all thought out really well.

[Baller2014]

I'm here to argue what rankings should be based on, and to try and explain why I think bad criteria like "rings" or "accolades" or "what he contributed to the game" are invalid measures. It would be pointless to participate in this thread and not try to convince people to change their pre-conceived views.

[penbeast0]

My top 25. Maybe some things look stupid (Oscar in top 3, Stockton over Malone), but that's how I see it after all discussions and games watched.

1 Michael Jordan
2 Hakeem Olajuwon
3 Oscar Robertson
4 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 Shaquille O'Neal
6 LeBron James
7 Larry Bird
8 Magic Johnson
9 Julius Erving
10 Kevin Garnett
11 Tim Duncan
12 Bill Russell
13 Wilt Chamberlain
14 Kobe Bryant
15 Charles Barkley
16 Dirk Nowitzki
17 David Robinson
18 Patrick Ewing
19 Jerry West
20 Steve Nash
21 John Stockton
22 Karl Malone
23 Jason Kidd
24 Moses Malone
25 Rick Barry

If Oscar was that much better than Russell, Wilt, and West, how come each of those contemporaries had considerably more team success in the 60s. Is it because you think Elgin Baylor was so much better than Jerry Lucas? Are you one of the posters that feel that PG defense is irrelevant? Just curious.

[Jaivl]

It may sound weird, but my main concern with Lorak's list, besides Russell, is Ewing at #19.

[Baller2014]

Oscar at #3 and Duncan at #11 are way more worrying to me.

[lorak]

If Oscar was that much better than Russell, Wilt, and West, how come each of those contemporaries had considerably more team success in the 60s. Is it because you think Elgin Baylor was so much better than Jerry Lucas? Are you one of the posters that feel that PG defense is irrelevant? Just curious.

Sure, Baylor was much better than Lucas and overall I think Russell, West and Wilt (during some seasons) had better rosters and situations (for example West played in Western Conference - that one weaker at the time) than Oscar in Cincinnati.

And no, I don't think PG defense is irrelevant. It is however less important than forwards and centers defense.

[ardee]

Top 30 is as far as I'm confident of going. Separations represent tiers, in which I can reasonably rank someone in one tier over another.

1. Michael Jordan

2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

5. Magic Johnson
6. Tim Duncan
7. LeBron James

8. Larry Bird
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Hakeem Olajuwon

12. Oscar Robertson
13. Jerry West
14. Dirk Nowitzki
15. Kevin Garnett

16. Julius Erving
17. David Robinson
18. Moses Malone

19. Karl Malone
20. Charles Barkley
21. Patrick Ewing

22. Steve Nash
23. Dwyane Wade
24. Bob Pettit

25. Scottie Pippen
26. Elgin Baylor
27. Clyde Drexler
28. John Stockton

29. Rick Barry
30. John Havlicek

[Jaivl]

Oscar at #3 and Duncan at #11 are way more worrying to me.

He has his own criteria to judge players.

Waiting to see his arguments about Ewing in the project. I don't see him as a top 20 player even judging impact, at all.

[Mutnt]

I don't think he was rated properly back then, and maybe a lot of people appreciate his game more now?

I look forward to pointing out all the reasons I disagree with Lorak's list, that's for sure.

Fair enough. If you believe he should have been rated higher in the previous project then I guess that's ok, but I've seen a lot of people elevating him two or three spots based on what happened in the last two years and I have no clue why.

[Basketballefan]

My top 25. Maybe some things look stupid (Oscar in top 3, Stockton over Malone), but that's how I see it after all discussions and games watched.

1 Michael Jordan
2 Hakeem Olajuwon
3 Oscar Robertson
4 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 Shaquille O'Neal
6 LeBron James
7 Larry Bird
8 Magic Johnson
9 Julius Erving
10 Kevin Garnett
11 Tim Duncan
12 Bill Russell
13 Wilt Chamberlain
14 Kobe Bryant
15 Charles Barkley
16 Dirk Nowitzki
17 David Robinson
18 Patrick Ewing
19 Jerry West
20 Steve Nash
21 John Stockton
22 Karl Malone
23 Jason Kidd
24 Moses Malone
25 Rick Barry

Why no Wade? I have trouble seeing an argument for Kidd over him.

EDIT: Now that i look closer, there are a lot of red flags with this list, having KG over Duncan and Russell definitely raises concern. Ewing is not top 20. As good as Oscar was he has no argument for top 3. Chamberlain at 13 is lowball.

[therealbig3]

I don't think he was rated properly back then, and maybe a lot of people appreciate his game more now?

I look forward to pointing out all the reasons I disagree with Lorak's list, that's for sure.

Fair enough. If you believe he should have been rated higher in the previous project then I guess that's ok, but I've seen a lot of people elevating him two or three spots based on what happened in the last two years and I have no clue why.

Well, it's not like people thought there was much separation between Duncan and whoever was ranked ahead of him at the time...maybe another 3 years of All-Star caliber play (I'd say a double-double big man who's still one of the best defenders in the game, and still plays an integral role on one of the elite teams in the league is an All-Star caliber player) is enough to prop him up over a couple of players?

I haven't really moved him up personally though...I have him #6 currently, and I think that's where I had him in 2011 too.

[therealbig3]

Could we stop picking apart other people's lists? Everyone has their own reasons. We're going to discuss them in FULL detail in the top 100 project, and we're gonna flesh this out. If you have questions, cool, but a lot of people are just criticizing other people's lists (a few posters have called out lorak's list just because it's a little different than most) based on their own ideas of where players should rank.

By calling out other people's lists like that, you're just gonna close the doors to discussion, because people aren't going to feel like coming forward with any sort of ideas that might be different than the general consensus, which would be a shame, because that's how people learn new things.

[Basketballefan]

When is the project supposed to start?

[ceiling raiser]

Here's what I have going into the project:

1) Bill Russell
2) Michael Jordan
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5) Hakeem Olajuwon
6) Shaquille O’Neal
7) Tim Duncan
8) Kevin Garnett
9) LeBron James
10) Oscar Robertson
11) Larry Bird
12) Dirk Nowitzki
13) Magic Johnson
14) David Robinson
15) Kobe Bryant
16) Julius Erving
17) Elgin Baylor
18) Rick Barry
19) Jerry West
20) Walt Frazier
21) Patrick Ewing
22) John Stockton
23) Dwyane Wade
24) Willis Reed
25) Dwight Howard