baki wrote:Haha yeah true, even I didn't know Shaq was THAT injured, players can make up anything to get out of a game or responsibilities (see Harden). I do know that Shaq hated to lose face.
This is just stupid. Shaq's injuries were reported early in the series before we knew Shaq was going to have a subpar offensive series, and again, we see one of the key injuries happen in game 1. The commentators even talk about the effects of his injury, particularly the hesitance to finish strong at the rim because of the stitches in his hand, but you also see the lack of explosiveness compared to usual at times to the point he looks like Miami Shaq a lot of the series as opposed to prime Shaq.
He didn't even need to make up anything to save face because Shaq wasn't getting criticized for the series at the time, just like Duncan wasn't getting praised for his series at the time. It's only been 10 years later when people start looking at Duncan's volume stats that it's considered a good series. And you notice, I've always blamed Shaq for his play in the '97 Jazz series and '99 Spurs series. Why? Because he didn't have any injuries to my knowledge and if he did, they certainly weren't noticeably like 2002 when they were blatantly obvious. '99 was also prime Shaq and '97 wasn't far from Shaq's prime, just before it, and he deserves more blame for those since he played poorly by his standards AND lost.
If that's the case, I have no problem recognizing it and blaming Shaq. It's people like you who have an impossible time applying context. Again, nothing made up. Other players and coaches were saying in the series that everyone knew Shaq was injured and far from 100%, it's in the SI article.
The thing was, Shaq was mainly a back to the basket, PUSH then pivots for the dunk or short hook. Because he was already so big and strong that would be easy for him, especially on a defender that had no bulk.
Again, see my last post of Shaq vs two defenders with comparable height and bulk to him in Sabonis and Longley if you still need convincing Shaq had an excellent skill set in the low post. Shaq was scoring on both of them with finesse a good amount and that turnaround. Vs smaller defenders, Shaq was smart to use his size advantage, in fact, Wilt Chamberlain he regretted not using his size as well as Shaq.
Exodus wrote:I don't really see why 2 posters (SA3234 and RBS) have to turn everything into a shaq debate. I hope the thread gets back on course to the thread title hopefully. I do though would take Hakeem over Duncan to start my franchise, I did lay out why I chose Dream, but thought that it reached the apex of discussion on my part.
I didn't, and I NEVER bring up Shaq in a thread where he's not already being discussed. I chimed in because of Baller2014's false narrative for the 2002 series to support his Duncan is god agenda. That's what I took exception to and felt I had to correct that, or nobody else would.
Baller2014 wrote:My god, finally someone reading my posts! It would be nice if Shaq fans read these sort of posts too. The issue isn't that he wasn't hurt, it's that he was hurt all the time once he put on weight in 00 (it was the trade off to help him dominate more), and the niggling injuries he had didn't slow him down at all the rest of the playoffs. It's just against the Spurs his numbers looks worse, against Duncan particularly. It shouldn't be difficult to work out why that is.
Sure, "constantly banged up Shaq" wasn't peak Shaq, everyone concedes that. Peak Shaq only existed for a year or so before he became "awesome prime Shaq who is constantly banged up, taking plays off, jogging up the court and worse as a result". But that version of Shaq was still absolutely dominating the non-Duncan match ups in the playoffs. The article someone linked to pages ago, about Shaq being hurt, was in the SacTown series... guess what, he put up 30-13 that series on insane efficiency. If your argument is "Duncan only matched up against a 30-13 dominant big, I'm cool with that (in the Nets series it was 36-12).
Injuries heal. What about this is so hard to understand? These athletes get treatment and over time the injuries heal. There were SI articles from early in the Spurs series about it as well, and if you actually watched the series, you'd hear the commentators talking about it.
You might have a point if Shaq didn't look so physically limited in the Spurs series. Yes, the Spurs were a tougher defensive team with a better front court, and it'd be much tougher for Shaq to average 30/14 vs them, much less 36/12 like he did vs the Nets, but it doesn't change the fact that the injuries seemed to be the biggest factor in Shaq struggling to the extent he did offensively. He always dominated the Kings to a much greater extent than the Spurs, but add injuries that greatly altered both his touch on his turnarounds and his finishing inside, and you have his offensive struggles. He was getting a lot of the same looks and opportunities he usually did.
And for whatever credit the Spurs defense deserves, at least be consistent and credit Mark Bryant, Malik Rose and the Spurs team for their double teams. Oh, and credit Robinson as well because he did play in 3 of the 5 games, and was typically assigned to Shaq when he was playing. That can't be forgotten since the way people make it sound, you'd think Duncan was the only guy defending Shaq.
RayBan-Sematra wrote:To be fair Baller I think you also implied that Shaq usually struggled VS Duncan making the fact that he was injured that year irrelevant.
That isn't true however.
Shaq had a monster offensive series against Duncan in 01& 03 and another good one in 04.
He also had a few good offensive games against Duncan in 99.
That is also not taking into account that Duncan had the best Shaq defender ever in 99/01 and to a lesser extent in 02/03 (Robinson was not the same force by then).
So in general I would expect a healthy Prime Shaq to do just fine against Prime Duncan even if he has a GOAT defensive C at his side to help him.
The only years Shaq had a poor series against Duncan was 99 (down year for Shaq) and 02 when he was dealing with multiple injuries.
Actually, relative to his diminished ability in 2004, Shaq had a monster series vs the Spurs in 2004, though Shaq and Duncan weren't the primary match up as usual. Shaq averaged 22.5 ppg, 14.5 rpg and 4.3 bpg on 63.5% shooting, up from his regular season numbers of 21.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg and 2.5 bpg on 58.4% shooting.
baki wrote:No, of course it makes sense because it requires more physical work getting there, 3-5 moves trying to shoot the ball vs 2 moves by Shaq who only has to use his back/body to get there drop the ball into the hoop. Just like if a shooter incurs a shoulder or wrist injury, or a slasher or forward gets a knee injury. Those injuries severely limit their effectiveness.
No, because Shaq is a guy use to using his physical superiority, and when you take a lot of that away, it obviously takes away a lot of what makes him great. And again, you're showing that you're really not knowledgeable about Shaq by repeating the misconception that Shaq just overpowered people without skills.
Of course, a shooter will suffer from that injury, but it's the equivalent of the injuries Shaq was dealing with because it takes away from what they do great.
I know what you said, but these aren't enough to stop his mobility, all he had to do was run to his spot, pivot, push push and push some more then drop the ball in the hole. Shooters get cut or sprained fingers all the time, they patch up and still try to shoot the ball. Shaq does even shoot the ball, I don't see how such a minor injury was enough to stop him from dunking.
It is enough to slow him down, just watch the series. It's all common sense. The commentators mention how Shaq was worried going up strong and dunking like he usually did would re-open the cut. Just watch him when he gets it inside with a good opportunity, he's often not dunking it when he usually would AND he's hesitating. Then you can see he doesn't have his usual explosiveness to go up and dunk hard over whoever is in the paint as frequently. Those were maybe the biggest reasons for his offensive struggles, that and you mentioned that Shaq doesn't shoot. Shows how much you know about his game because he did shoot a lot of those 8-10 foot turnarounds by that point, and you can see his release is often off and different.
Again, you're saying, "well those injuries shouldn't matter", the problem is they did because I saw Shaq off his game that series, and a lot of that wasn't the defense, it's the things I've mentioned.
As for your description of Shaq's game, sorry, it's not that easy. Shaq didn't take nearly that long in the post because the double team would come long before that, and if it didn't, the triangle would be thrown off.
My point is that even if Shaq was hurt, he could still play through it because he was so big and strong, and his offensive game was only limited to 2 moves anyway.
He did play through it. He was just less effective, but had it been the regular season, he wouldn't have even been playing. And Shaq was far more skilled than you're making him sound. The whole Shaq wasn't skilled misnomer is one that almost every knowledgeable NBA fan knows isn't true.
I think you're just not accepting the fact that Shaq wasn't really as amazing as you are making him out to be. He was just big and incredibly strong and I've always thought that he really needed a good second player like Kobe and Wade to distract the opposition away from his weakness. He was reasonable in Miami but he was declining because he could no longer keep up with his body. Duncan has shown that he could still score, drive and be a pivotal piece on a championship team.
I really don't see what this is supposed to do. You trying to convince me Shaq wasn't as good as I believe he was is funny, but it's wasted time because you clearly don't have much knowledge about him.
Shaq didn't rely on Kobe or Wade to score at all. Look at the 30 or so games Kobe missed during the 3peat, Shaq's scoring went up during that time. Then look at '97-'99, when he didn't have anyone who was elite, and Shaq was getting his usual 26-28 ppg. In fact, even by 2000, Kobe was very talented, but not an elite, MVP-caliber player yet. Or look at how much Shaq was scoring in his first 2 years when he was a raw 21-22 year old, with Penny not there yet by his rookie year and Penny a promising rookie, but no elite player in '94.
Of course, this is all a very flawed argument because Shaq didn't have it easier because of anyone he played with because the man saw as many doubles and received as much defensive attention as anyone I know of in NBA history. And if you look at 2000, he led the league in scoring, upped his production in the playoffs and had his best year with a team that was a very poor perimeter shooting team and had 2 offensive liabilities in the starting lineup.
Shaq declined in Miami because he was 33 his first year there, and most players will have started to declining by then, and his body started breaking down, which is no surprise for such a massive player. In fact, he had declined quite a bit by his last year in LA in 2004.
Duncan has had a nice resurgence from the second half of the 2012 season on, but don't forget that he had declined just as quickly as Shaq from prime form, if not more. Duncan in 2010 was in the same stage of his career as Shaq his first year in Miami, and clearly not as good at the same time, and not prime Duncan either. Then look at 2011 when Duncan was at the same stage of his career as Shaq when he won his 4th title in 2004, and Tim was just a 13/9 player that year with many thinking his career was almost over. Hell, Duncan was past his prime by 2008.
So really the difference between Shaq and TIm is that Tim has had this very nice resurgence the last 2 1/2 seasons.
But even as an old player, when Shaq felt good physically, he could still be a great offensive player. Just look at his 2009 season with Phoenix when he was 37.
ushvinder88 wrote:Wrong, ive seen all 5 games. Tell me, where was his drop off in stats in the other 3 rounds of that playoff series. You are not shaq's physician, you cant prove shaq was injury free against kings-nets-portland and only injured against the spurs, everything you say is hearsay.
Oh really, so his injuries were 100% healed halfway through the kings series, you know exactly when his injuries began and when they stopped, were you giving shaq massages? You dont know the extent of his physical health. To act like he was a walking cripple against spurs and healthy for the rest of the playoffs is blasphemous.
Man, you are obnoxious and completely lack common sense.
I never said Shaq was suddenly completely 100% healed by midway through the Kings series. I used that point because that's when it was reported he was feeling better.
I never said he was completely healthy the rest of the playoffs, in fact, it was common knowledge he wasn't, but the Spurs series was when he was known to be the most banged up, and it's obvious watching him that he was bothered more by injuries at that point.
The reality is, his injuries probably continued to get better and heal, which is what happens with injuries. What I do know is that by the finals, Shaq was like night and day physically compared to the Spurs series. It wasn't even close. Shaq looked like 2000 and 2001 Shaq in the finals, while in the WCSF vs the Spurs, he looked like Miami Shaq.
I really can't wait until I have time to make the specific notes I plan on making so I can really make these sort of posts look ridiculous.
Shot Clock wrote:Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that 3 of his 4 major injuries came during the SAS series? He cut his shooting hand at the beginning of the series, he sprained his ankle during the series.
THANK YOU. Finally, someone with a brain who is familiar with the series, unbiased and has common sense. Man, it is it nice to see you in this thread.
. But I'll say this, Shaq was the best big big man in the game, he was strong, he was immovable in the post, he broke rings and backboards, nothing could hurt him. If Duncan was a player of skills Shaq would be a player of natural abilities. But he was offensively limited to making dunk or shooting less than 5 feet from the basket, probably requiring no less than 3 moves to make a basket. Shaq couldn't make a midrange jumpshot to save his life.
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