ronnymac2 wrote:Vote: Kareem-Abdul-JabbarKAJ is the GOAT because of his combination of peak performance and GOAT longevity against the greatest competition any player has ever faced. Also the different teammates, pecking orders, systems, coaches, and mini-eras he dominated or contributed to his team's success.
So Mr. Alcindor comes in wrecking the league. GOAT rookie, on par with prime Jerry West himself coming off an epic Finals MVP win. He murders the 1970 league MVP peak Willis Reed in the playoffs, but the Knicks are a machine with Debusschere and Frazier and beat MIL.
71, he gets prime Oscar and they win a title together. One of the most impressive 2-year stretches in history was the 1971-1972 Bucks. Expansion era I know, but they did what they were supposed to do. 60+ wins, ridiculous SRS, only losing in '72 to another GOAT team candidate.
A Wilt Chamberlain whose efforts are mainly focused on defense does a good job slowing 3rd-year KAJ in 1972 in the playoffs. That said, he didn't outplay KAJ. His offensive responsibility was far greater than WIlt's especially since Oscar Robertson was hurt in that series. KAJ was forced to shoulder an insane amount of offense, taking like 33 shots per game. You're percentages will fall when you need to shoot that much against an elite defender. KAJ still outscored Wilt 202-67 on the series. He had 37 points, 25 rebounds, and 8 assists in the closeout game 6 and shot 16-36 from the field. Wilt is hailed as a hero for slowing KAJ down, but they weren't in equal circumstances. KAJ could not have done more to help his team win save morph into a player who would be the guaranteed GOAT by all.
Nate Thurmond, the GOAT low post man defender, slowed KAJ in 1973 (Oscar is really in decline now). This is the last time Jabbar is really neutralized in any sense.
1974 is basically LBJ in 2009. He was clearly a champion. Probably his best year ever defensively and averaged 32 PPG and 5 APG in the playoffs on 55 percent shooting. MIL had the best SRS in the league and went 7 vs. Boston. KAJ torched an amazing defensive frontcourt of Dave Cowens and Paul Silas.
He moves to LA, and for the next 5 seasons, he essentially either has poor talent around him or incredibly mismatched talent (CoughDantleyCough). I'll quote TrueLAfan from the '79 RPOY thread here:
TrueLAfan wrote:This is another strange year, and, again, I think I'm going to be going against the grain in some of these choices. But I was watching, and I've got my reasons...although I'm curious to hear what others have to say that isn't necessarily statistically related.
1. Kareem. Suffered from voter fatigue, and a misapprehension about his team. The Lakers were a good team. On paper. This is exactly what Adrian Dantley did for the Lakers in 1978 and 1979.
--Kept Jamaal Wilkes from playing at his natural position of SF.
--Held onto the ball too long, and didn't pass out (especially to perimeter players).
--Often set up in the low post, forcing Kareem to change his game.
--Absolutely, positively, did not play D. Uh-uh.
All of this meant that the Lakers were...troubled, shall we say. Kareem was his usual self in many ways; 24 points and 13 boards a game (from now on, Kareem is going to be a great rebounder). He averaged over 5 assists a game and a hair under 4 blocks. I blame Dantley for 80% of the team's underperforming; he was a team wrecker. (The lousy bench, poor D other than Kareem, and lack of quality at SG...that hurt too.) The Lakers had zero chemistry (and they'd had plenty in, say, 1977). Jerry West (the coach at the time) had this to say. “This team has averaged 48 wins over the past three seasons, and I'll tell you what. I don't care if he's at the top of his game, past it or underneath it—without Kareem we don't beat anybody. This team just doesn't complement him at all.” (They still made it to the conference semis in two of those years, losing to eventual champs both times.)
Big laffs for me...Sports Illustrated referring to Don Ford as a “defensive” player. Don Ford couldn't guard my grandmother, and she can't go left.
TrueLAfan wrote:Again, a chunk of the problem with the Lakers rebounding this year can be traced to … Adrian Dantley. By playing at SF, he pushed Wilkes to PF. Right there, that took away Kareem’s advantages in rebounding. At a Reb % of 17.6, Kareem grabbed about 100-125 more rebounds that an “average” C with a Reb Rate of 16.0. But with Wilkes at PF combined with Don Ford—one of the worst starters I’ve ever seen—the Lakers got 1219 rebounds out of their starting SF and PF positions … a combined Reb % of 21.3. That’s bad. You should get about 23 to 23.5% of rebounds from those positions. That meant the Lakers gave back Kareem’s extra rebounds. And most of the rest of the team—Lou Hudson (who I loved, but was shot by 1979), Ron Boone, Norm Nixon—were really bad rebounders. When West points out that the Lakers didn’t compliment Kareem well, he’s right. Kareem's scoring took a hit because his usage dropped so much...14% to be exact. That's more than his socring drop, even adjusted per minute. Why did Kareem's usage drop? Because the team had added a player who took as many shots per mintue as Cap, held the ball too long, and caused a disruption to the offense that was much more obvious when you were watching than it is in the box scores (although when you know about it, the statistical evidence is there too.) Put it this way...who do you think should be leading the team in usage? The five time MVP with the best halfcourt move in the history of basketball, or the second year player who forced a starter to play out of position? Guess which player led the Lakers in usage?
I should add this...maybe Kareem should have said something publically. I have the feeling, based on what West said at the time and since, that it was brought up to and known by coaching and management. The problems with the team (and Dantley, in particualr) were not a mystery. But should Kareem have put his foot down? Would that have helped the situation? Would it have helped the team? It’s hard to say. It was a different time, and players operated differently with the media in terms of asserting power and having their reputations established. I have the feeling that if Elvin Hayes had had a microphone in his face as often as, say, Allen Iverson has/had, he’d have a very different legacy. But, all in all, I can’t fault Kareem for this. I think he’s naturally taciturn, and I think West didn’t want to play up the mistake in picking up Dantley. But, for me, that doesn’t affect Kareem’s value. And I think it should be noted that when Dantley got his wish and went to a team that allowed him free rein on offense, he never got his team to as many wins as the Lakers did in a season of disruption where there was great parity in the league.
Nevermind that the man obliterated one of the GOAT defensive frontcourts in Bill Walton/Mo Lucas in the '77 WCF with literally **** players around him, while Coach Ramsay's Blazers were a Spurs-like machine.
We get to 1980, where his GOAT-esque season and playoffs is overshadowed by arguably the GOAT performance on the last game of the season by his teammate, Earvin Johnson. KAJ would have been REG SEA MVP and Finals MVP if the voters weren't idiots. KAJ was definitely the lead dog on that team.
1981...outrebounds Moses Malone in a 3-game series. Outplays Moses Malone. He's still arguably the best player in the league.
1982...This is, in my opinion, his most impressive year so far. His team is oozing with talent, so the man tempers his scoring to allow LA to have five (5!) players average 16.7 PPG in the playoffs. That's insane balance. KAJ protects the basket as LA plays an amazing trap D and runs over the league over the last half the season and through the playoffs.
1983...One of the best. Moses Malone dominates him on the glass in the NBA Finals, but KAJ's offensive output is amazing. Moses can't guard KAJ, but KAJ can guard Moses on his initial drives and postups. Moses' offensive rebounding hurts LA though.
1985...man wins Finals MVP 14 years after he won his first. That's a record. Does it against Bird/Parish/McHale. The man would have had at least 5 Finals MVPs if Oscar wasn't hurt in 1972, Richie Powers wasn't a douchebag in 1974, and voters weren't incompetent in 1980. Just my opinion.
The man continued to compete at a high level against some of the best frontcourt players ever. Was still contributing to title teams in his later years. Always a devastating scorer. Could hit free throws. Really no weakness.
Competition: The man faced Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens (with Paul Silas), Bill Walton (with Mo Lucas), Wes Unseld (with Elvin Hayes), Artis Gilmore, Bob Lanier, Moses Malone, Robert Parish (with Bird/McHale/Walton), Akeem Olajuwon (with Ralph Sampson), Patrick Ewing, Bill Laimbeer (with Mahorn/Rodman), and Jack Sikma.
The only truly all-time great centers he never faced were George Mikan, Bill Russell, Shaq, David Robinson, Dwight Howard and Alonzo Mourning. He faced everybody else, pretty much all in their primes. Worst thing you could say was Kareem was outrebounded by peak Moses Malone in 1983 and stifled by GOAT man defender Nate Thurmond in 1973.
He whipped everybody else's ass. Kicked ass for 20 years. Contributed to winning teams no matter what. He was on great teams. He was on terrible teams. Nobody did more for his team in my opinion.
The dude did it as a player coach. How many ATG's do we sit and discuss around the fact that they weren't utilized properly?
)
