LeBron + Scrubs vs Jordan + Scrubs

[mooncheese]

another reason why it's Jordan - not only did his scrubs perform better than Lebron's scrubs (the story was never Jordan's scrubs disappearing or underperforming like Lebron's scrubs do all the time), but Jordan was capable of carrying the bigger load, which is beneficial when playing with all scrubs.

look at points per game... shot attempts... and usage... Jordan blows Lebron away in all these categories that indicate how big a load a player is carrying... this is also why defenses could not play Jordan straight up - they risk him going off for 40 or 50... with lebron, they can play him straight up and exploit his pursuit of high efficiency shots - the defense just has to not give up too many open shots/high efficiency shots, then expect him to get his 22-35, and then enjoy the massive advantage of being able stay at home on his teammates... then read in the paper the next day how his teammates "disappeared"..

Jordan carried the bigger load and his style was less exploitable by the defense... so for this argument it's Jordan... and as usual, it's not really close at all... in time this will become more and more evident.

[Walid]

I got LeBron, especially after this year with his spectacular efficiency inside and outside. Defense-wise I got LeBron as well.

[mooncheese]

Lebron had the lowest production of any top Finals PER performance.

He averaged 18.2 shot attempts (by far the low for a top 10 all-time PER), 28.2 ppg, and 4.0 assists (25.1% assist percentage).

By comparison, in the 1987 Finals, Magic Johnson averaged 23.3 shot attempts, 26.2 ppg, and 13.0 assists (46.5% assist percentage).

Whose production was higher (raw production, per minute, or per possession)?.. Clearly it's Magic by a longshot.

Even though I asked about production, I'll mention that Magic had a 132 offensive rating in 1987 Finals, compared to Lebron's 120 this year.

Despite the lower production and points per possession (the reason Lebron lost in the 2014 Finals), Lebron's superior shooting percentage propped up his PER to 31.8 through 4 games of the 2014 Finals, above Magic Johnson's 28.5 in 7 games.

But based on the result (victory versus record defeat), it's safe to say that Magic's production-driven PER had more substance to battle the opponent's production than Lebron's shooting-efficiency-driven one.

[AMW27]

LeBron led average Cavs teams to 60 plus wins and deep into the playoffs. The Cavs overrachieved. LeBron made guys like Mo Williams and Delonte West look better than they really were. Heck he made Mo Williams look like an all star at one point. I'm not trying to not knock MJ, because his role players like Paxon and Kerr did benefit from getting open shots, but he never made guys look like all stars.

Come playoff time LeBron's teammates were exposed.

[KobeKenobi]

The East was better in Jordan's era. The East is pretty lame in Lebron's era. Jordan made Pippen better. I don't see how Lebron has made Wade or Bosh better. Wade and Bosh's stock has gone down dramatically since playing with Lebron, while Pippen's stock went way up playing next to MJ his whole career. Also you think of Kobe, you think of Lamar and Gasol playing much better. I think MJ and Kobe are demanding, so people tend to play above their normal levels.

LBJ is kind of a buddy buddy type of leadership style, but you could argue he made Mo better.

Magic vs. Jordan, or Kobe vs. Jordan is a better argument, because this is no contest. MJ is superior to Lebron in every aspect of making his teammates better. But in empty stats, Lebron is king.

[AMW27]

You're right guys like Kobe and MJ are demanding. LeBron may not be that type but he does a good job of making average players look better than they really are. Something MJ probably wouldn't do.

When LeBron came to Miami Wade had already established himself as an all time great. He was a top player in the game for their first two years together. Bosh was a borderline superstar when arriving in Miami. He's more than likely going to be a hall of famer someday. I believe playing with LeBron will be a big reason why. I don't believe Bosh had established himself as a hall of famer prior to the move to Miami. Heck Mike Brown got two jobs after his first firing. Maybe LeBron played a role in that.

I agree with Pau Gasol to L.A.. in a way. Gasol was just a one time all star in memphis( definately worthy of being an all star more than just once though during that time) and never been selected to an all nba team prior to joining Kobe. He did become quite overrated after L.A. won those two titles in 2009 and 2010. But the player Pau was in L.A. is the same player he was in Memphis. Its just hes not a guy that can be the top player on a championship squad. That's vwhere he beneffited from playing next to Kobe.


With LeBron and Jordan both having scrubs I think LeBron could achieve more with them. I believe he'll make them look one step better. I'm just not sure about Jordan. Kobe Bryant would just cry his way out of town.

[Kupchak9]

The East was better in Jordan's era. The East is pretty lame in Lebron's era. Jordan made Pippen better. I don't see how Lebron has made Wade or Bosh better. Wade and Bosh's stock has gone down dramatically since playing with Lebron, while Pippen's stock went way up playing next to MJ his whole career. Also you think of Kobe, you think of Lamar and Gasol playing much better. I think MJ and Kobe are demanding, so people tend to play above their normal levels.

LBJ is kind of a buddy buddy type of leadership style, but you could argue he made Mo better.

Magic vs. Jordan, or Kobe vs. Jordan is a better argument, because this is no contest. MJ is superior to Lebron in every aspect of making his teammates better. But in empty stats, Lebron is king.

First of all, let me just say that you're analysis process is garbage. Every post you make is simply shots at Lebron or comprised of the utmost Kobe fanboy obsession.

1) Of course Pippen's stock went up, he played with MJ since his ROOKIE season, the only way it can go is up. You act as if Scottie was a piece of trash player that got traded to the Bulls and since then MJ turned him into a Hall of Famer. I would have to say that Scottie improved vastly as a player in his own right through his own hardwork and dedication to the game, along with proper development from BOTH Phil and MJ. The guy was barely 22 when he played for the bulls.

2) Your argument that Odom and Pau played WAY better because of Kobe. That's complete BS, first of all Odom was already an established product before even coming to LA. His skills were highlighted more clearly with Pau's arrival, not Kobe's supposed "leadership." Pau made it "cool" to be a Laker fan again, he made Odom a legitimate 3rd option and saved Kobe's legacy. Kobe didn't make Odom a better player, Pau and Phil did.

[AMW27]

The East was better in Jordan's era. The East is pretty lame in Lebron's era. Jordan made Pippen better. I don't see how Lebron has made Wade or Bosh better. Wade and Bosh's stock has gone down dramatically since playing with Lebron, while Pippen's stock went way up playing next to MJ his whole career. Also you think of Kobe, you think of Lamar and Gasol playing much better. I think MJ and Kobe are demanding, so people tend to play above their normal levels.

LBJ is kind of a buddy buddy type of leadership style, but you could argue he made Mo better.

Magic vs. Jordan, or Kobe vs. Jordan is a better argument, because this is no contest. MJ is superior to Lebron in every aspect of making his teammates better. But in empty stats, Lebron is king.

First of all, let me just say that you're analysis process is garbage. Every post you make is simply shots at Lebron or comprised of the utmost Kobe fanboy obsession.

1) Of course Pippen's stock went up, he played with MJ since his ROOKIE season, the only way it can go is up. You act as if Scottie was a piece of trash player that got traded to the Bulls and since then MJ turned him into a Hall of Famer. I would have to say that Scottie improved vastly as a player in his own right through his own hardwork and dedication to the game, along with proper development from BOTH Phil and MJ. The guy was barely 22 when he played for the bulls.

2) Your argument that Odom and Pau played WAY better because of Kobe. That's complete BS, first of all Odom was already an established product before even coming to LA. His skills were highlighted more clearly with Pau's arrival, not Kobe's supposed "leadership." Pau made it "cool" to be a Laker fan again, he made Odom a legitimate 3rd option and saved Kobe's legacy. Kobe didn't make Odom a better player, Pau and Phil did.

I agree. Had L.A. not made that trade for Pau they would probably have gotten knocked out in the first round again with Kobe crying like a big baby for a trade; as he did in the Summer of 2007 when he through his teammates under the bus publicly.

[mooncheese]

just look at the relevant stat here - offensive win share... Jordan's scrubby teammates always had higher offensive win shares than LeBron's... his non-scrubby teammates did too.... like, kerr should not have a higher offensive win share than ray allen - it shouldn't be anywhere near ray allen's... or chalmers or Norris cole for that matter.

with LeBron, it's actually suboptimal to have your SF or PF taking duties away from your guards by being the primary ballhandler so much... too bad Lebron isn't goat at every aspect of offense like Jordan is, because then this would not be a problem - then wade would get all the touches he could handle... and bosh could play more like he did in Toronto and wouldn't be reduced to a 6'10 steve kerr... and the scrubs would be more open for FT-like shots.

people think Lebron has the perfect style and physique... but they are proven wrong time and time again once the stakes are highest but they don't realize it.

his style and physique are good, but not optimal or chameleon-like, which is why he frequently gets exploited and beaten at the highest level... if LeBron was goat at EVERY aspect of offense instead of just one aspect... this would not happen.

[spectacularmove]

Bad team=Lebron
Average team=MJ
Good team=MJ

[spurcase]

Take each player and surround them with a bunch of scrubs of equal ability (starters+bench).. Who wins in a best out of 7?

f doesn't prove anything, what determines if one player is better than another is who would win if they had the same team surrounding them?

Edit: Scrubs on LeBron's team that suit his game, and scrubs on Jordan's that suit his.. Point being equal playing field, no all-star help..

The problem with this kind of thing is it is all supposition and matter of opinion. No one can possible know which would win. No arguments will settle it because neither side would accept the other side's argument. A poll certainly would not settle it because whoever loses will just say the other side is made up of haters.