RealGM Top 100 List #2

[ThaRegul8r]

It looks like the votes are 21 to 18 to 1 to 1 so Bill Russell squeaks in with a bare majority.

This result is surprising to me, as one of my pre-project predictions was Kareem supplanting Russell for #2.

[Baller2014]

Um, my count is Russell does not have a majority.

[DQuinn1575]

It looks like the votes are 21 to 18 to 1 to 1 so Bill Russell squeaks in with a bare majority.

Posters who made good informative posts in this thread AND posted their desire to be on our judging list will be added for the next thread. This was one of the areas where most of the people participating in our rules discussion were clear (some wanted a 5 thread delay but I tend to be in favor of opening up speech and participation wherever possible like a good little Libertarian).

I will have #3 open in the next 20 minutes or so.

People may still be at work, shouldn't we leave this up til tonight, and just start fresh in the morning.

I think it would be wise to give an exact time when voting closes

[Baller2014]

Russell does not have a majority, only a plurality (which we said wasn't enough).

Even excluding RayBan, Imon and Clyde, the vote is as follows by my reckoning:

Kareem- 19 votes (Baller, Colts, Greatness, Dr P, DannyN, Basketballefan, tlafan, trex, Ronny, realbig3, Owly, Mutnt, NArigo, Sacto, Kayess, Lorak, Moonbeam, UBF, 0_6)

Russell- 21 votes (Pen, fplii, Quinn, JBulls, HBkid, Dhodgkins, mmerl, batmana, Texas, Quo, Jaivl, Ardee, Dr MJ, D Nice, Drza, PCP, GC Pan, Rich316, Rico, MacGill, Dr Spaceman

Hakeem- 1 (90'salldecade- preferences Kareem though in his post)

Wilt- 1 (Notnoob)

With Gregoire indicating he'd support Kareem too, and the 3 votes not counted. I really think this must be left open longer, or go to Kareem. Both the 2 votes for Wilt and Hakeem indicate they'd take Kareem too! I thought no plurality wins.

[penbeast0]

Best I can do is say, two days from now (two evenings if you are on Eastern Standard time). I'm not a computer or a robot and I work in the mornings.

As for the count, Baller, go ahead and post it with each eligible voters' name listed by their vote. Eligible voters are those on the list; I will be adding to it for #3 but right now it's the original list of about 55 names.

[Clyde Frazier]

Double-checking the votes:

Bill Russell: 21 (penbeast0, MacGill, fpliii, DQuinn1575, JordansBulls, HeartBreakKid, DHodgkins, magicmerl, batmana, Texas Chuck, Quotatious, Jaivl, ardee, Doctor MJ, D Nice, PCProductions, GC Pantalones, rich316, drza, rico381, Dr Spaceman)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 18 (Baller2014, colts18, Greatness, Dr Positivity, DannyNoonan1221, Basketballefan, SactoKingsFan, TrueLAfan, trex_8063, ronnymac2, therealbig3, Owly, Mutnt, Narigo, kayess, lorak, An Unbiased Fan, O_6)

Hakeem Olajuwon: 1 (90sAllDecade)

Last vote counted: O_6 for Kareem, post #279


Votes that didn't count: RayBan-Sematra (Kareem), Imon (Kareem), Clyde Frazier (Kareem), eliasrapp98 (Kareem)...sorry, I don't see your names on the voting list...I mean, I actually know two of you through your posting history (RayBan-Sematra and Clyde Frazier) and I know that both of you are great posters, and maybe I missed seeing it (totally possible), but I don't see your names here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924

I PM'd penbeast0 last night asking to get in on the voting. They said my vote for #2 will count, and my name will be included on the voters list when we start #3.

Actually, my response is that if you want into the project, you need to give a good take on #2 (where you don't have the vote) and if it seems to be something that helps the project, you will be included on the voting list for #3 which is basically the same thing it says in the membership thread.

Fair enough. I sent a link in the PM, but here's my vote and explanation (post #189):

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1331477&p=40336705#p40336705

Let me know, thanks.

[Baller2014]

We are also several hours shy of two days, I hasten to add.

[ceiling raiser]

Russell does not have a majority, only a plurality (which we said wasn't enough).

Even excluding RayBan, Imon and Clyde, the vote is as follows by my reckoning:

Kareem- 19 votes (Baller, Colts, Greatness, Dr P, DannyN, Basketballefan, tlafan, trex, Ronny, realbig3, Owly, Mutnt, NArigo, Sacto, Kayess, Lorak, Moonbeam, UBF, 0_6)

Russell- 21 votes (Pen, fplii, Quinn, JBulls, HBkid, Dhodgkins, mmerl, batmana, Texas, Quo, Jaivl, Ardee, Dr MJ, D Nice, Drza, PCP, GC Pan, Rich316, Rico, MacGill, Dr Spaceman

Hakeem- 1 (90'salldecade- preferences Kareem though in his post)

Wilt- 1 (Notnoob)

With Gregoire indicating he'd support Kareem too, and the 3 votes not counted. I really think this must be left open longer, or go to Kareem. Both the 2 votes for Wilt and Hakeem indicate they'd take Kareem too! I thought no plurality wins.

That being said, I think both are tremendous players, and the results aren't terribly important. The discussion has been great in these first two threads, and I'm sure it will continue to be in the thread for #3.

[90sAllDecade]

I think as close as the vote has been and that there are disputed votes and technicalities, a tie breaker period would seem fair so everyone is satisfied.

[DannyNoonan1221]

I apologize for my lack of involvement. Busiest time of year. It will slow down soon and I'll have a lot more time.

Where I stand with this. I started a KAJ supporter but figured I would learn a lot. And I have. But most of the knowledge gained from #1 and #2 discussion has been about KAJ, both support for my original opinion and support against my original opinion on. I was aware of the statistical/award stuff that makes him great, but it was great to see some anti KAJ to put things into perspective, such as his middle years without O or Magic.

I won't say I didn't learn anything about Russell, but not much that would sway my opinion of his greatness. I believe he was a great defender who happened to be in the perfect system for his game- not a lot of guys can say that about their careers and if they could I think our rankings would end up differently. How he would translate to today's game... He would still be near the top in this league but his lack of offense would be too hard to hide, something that I feel with the footage I've watched and what I've read, wasn't as hard back then to do or as detrimental to his teams success.

I know I haven't really added much with this post but it might be good to see how the conversation is interpreted by someone who hasn't ever really had a real in depth conversation about it in a forum setting like many of you have

[ThaRegul8r]

I think both are tremendous players, and the results aren't terribly important. The discussion has been great in these first two threads, and I'm sure it will continue to be in the thread for #3.

This. I couldn't care less about who goes where. The most important thing is the discussion, and everyone adding what they know in order to expand the body of knowledge as a whole. I've saved some posts in the discussion myself. If people are worrying where their guy is and wanting to get him in where they want, they're missing the point.

[Baller2014]

Of course the discussion is the most important thing, but I think it's also worth making sure the winners have actually won each time too! We're still several hours off the 2 day deadline, and Russell does not have a majority, with several votes being excluded, and one guy who didn't officially vote saying indicating he'd back Kareem.

[Purch]

Russell does not have a majority, only a plurality (which we said wasn't enough).

Even excluding RayBan, Imon and Clyde, the vote is as follows by my reckoning:

Kareem- 19 votes (Baller, Colts, Greatness, Dr P, DannyN, Basketballefan, tlafan, trex, Ronny, realbig3, Owly, Mutnt, NArigo, Sacto, Kayess, Lorak, Moonbeam, UBF, 0_6)

Russell- 21 votes (Pen, fplii, Quinn, JBulls, HBkid, Dhodgkins, mmerl, batmana, Texas, Quo, Jaivl, Ardee, Dr MJ, D Nice, Drza, PCP, GC Pan, Rich316, Rico, MacGill, Dr Spaceman

Hakeem- 1 (90'salldecade- preferences Kareem though in his post)

Wilt- 1 (Notnoob)

With Gregoire indicating he'd support Kareem too, and the 3 votes not counted. I really think this must be left open longer, or go to Kareem. Both the 2 votes for Wilt and Hakeem indicate they'd take Kareem too! I thought no plurality wins.

Hmm? A vote for Wilt or Hakeem.... Indicates that they would take wilt or Hakeem at the spot .This isn't the Kareem vs Russell thread, you're allowed to vote who you think is most deserving of the spot, and that shouldn't be converted into something else for some odd reason

[ThaRegul8r]

Of course the discussion is the most important thing, but I think it's also worth making sure the winners have actually won each time too! We're still several hours off the 2 day deadline, and Russell does not have a majority, with several votes being excluded, and one guy who didn't officially vote saying indicating he'd back Kareem.

If your guy was ahead, you wouldn't have any problems.

[90sAllDecade]

We have many different types of views and perspectives on players here. And the fact that we're voting adds to the discussion imo.

Some people are advocates of statistical analysis, skill sets etc and view other players with different criteria. Not everyone shares the same world view with player comparisons, why not make room for all that diversity of perspective to be satisfied with the results?

The voting adds to the motivation for discussion and debate imo and makes it more fun. If it didn't, why wouldn't we just talk about these players without voting?

A tie breaker period would actually prolong and enhance the discussion of these players as well.

[ThaRegul8r]

Russell does not have a majority, only a plurality (which we said wasn't enough).

Even excluding RayBan, Imon and Clyde, the vote is as follows by my reckoning:

Kareem- 19 votes (Baller, Colts, Greatness, Dr P, DannyN, Basketballefan, tlafan, trex, Ronny, realbig3, Owly, Mutnt, NArigo, Sacto, Kayess, Lorak, Moonbeam, UBF, 0_6)

Russell- 21 votes (Pen, fplii, Quinn, JBulls, HBkid, Dhodgkins, mmerl, batmana, Texas, Quo, Jaivl, Ardee, Dr MJ, D Nice, Drza, PCP, GC Pan, Rich316, Rico, MacGill, Dr Spaceman

Hakeem- 1 (90'salldecade- preferences Kareem though in his post)

Wilt- 1 (Notnoob)

With Gregoire indicating he'd support Kareem too, and the 3 votes not counted. I really think this must be left open longer, or go to Kareem. Both the 2 votes for Wilt and Hakeem indicate they'd take Kareem too! I thought no plurality wins.

Hmm? A vote for Wilt or Hakeem.... Indicates that they would take wilt or Hakeem at the spot .This isn't the Kareem vs Russell thread, you're allowed to vote who you think is most deserving of the spot, and that shouldn't be converted into something else for some odd reason

This. Other posters have commented on this. He wants his guys in where he wants them.

[Baller2014]

We were assured that nobody would win with a plurality, and that there would be a run off. I dislike the assumption of bad faith. If Kareem was winning on a plurality I'd say the exact same thing. 90's decade, who just posted several times above, wants a run off... and he voted for Hakeem, but made it clear he'd preference Kareem. It hasn't been 2 days yet.

[ThaRegul8r]

The voting adds to the motivation for discussion and debate imo and makes it more fun. If it didn't, why wouldn't we just talk about these players without voting?

I'm writing about Kareem now and have been gradually posting things, but haven't voted. Since a poster said Kareem was underdiscussed, I'm putting information out there so people can learn more about him, and will continue doing so after Kareem goes in wherever he ends up going. I don't—and have never had—a GOAT list, so I have no vested interest in anyone going in at a certain spot. I want to learn something I didn't already know, and, hopefully, help someone else to learn something they didn't already know.

[90sAllDecade]

The voting adds to the motivation for discussion and debate imo and makes it more fun. If it didn't, why wouldn't we just talk about these players without voting?

I'm writing about Kareem now and have been gradually posting things, but haven't voted. Since a poster said Kareem was underdiscussed, I'm putting information out there so people can learn more about him, and will continue doing so after Kareem goes in wherever he ends up going. I don't—and have never had—a GOAT list, so I have no vested interest in anyone going in at a certain spot. I want to learn something I didn't already know, and, hopefully, help someone else to learn something they didn't already know.

And I very much appreciate your contributions and perspective. I think others have different lines of thinking and we should be inclusive of that imo. If some want to advocate for a guy so be it, just provide facts or add to the discussion imo. If some don't want to vote and strictly want to learn & contribute, that's appreciated as well.

I think a run off would keep this diverse group from having a bad taste that the voting wasn't inclusive of all who'd like to participate or contribute to the discussion due to technicality. This is for fun after all and I think shouldn't be too rigid for new participants (my opinion though and up to the Mods)

A tie breaker period would also be interesting. How often does it happen and at what ranking? There had been very little to no discussion about Jordan since he won, what new contributions could we have if we had a tie breaker period?

[ceiling raiser]

Just for the record, here are the voters who haven't named picks in this thread from pen's list, as far as I can tell (not sure how many voted in thread #1, so some may have decided not to participate in the project):

3. rrravenred
4. tsherkin
5. Nate33
10. bastillon
16. Gregoire
18. acrossthecourt
24. RSCD3_
30. Okada
31. NyCeEv0
32. Tomas11
46. B_Creamy
51. aal04
53. Warspite