Official Trade Thread - Part XXVII

[payitforward]

Just to give you some context,
Barnes first 2 seasons in the nba are statistically better in most categories than arizas first 7, he has only been in the league 2 years, you guys have to realize that ariza want not that good in his first 2 years in the league. Barnes has a future in the league just like Ariza did.

But Ariza's guaranteed future is in the past, while a failed past could still be Barnes' future. When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks into you.

Yesterday it was simon & garfunkel, today it's... I don't know, maybe Mallarme?? This forum is very educational!

[payitforward]

???

Hands, first you suggested we should re-sign Trevor, "that's what I've been saying," but maybe really only to do a S&T (do I have that right?).

Then in the very next post you say you agree w/ Gambit that we should just let him go and try to get Parsons, and that you "posted the very same thing a few days ago."

That's 2 opposed things, no? Or do you mean that if Ariza costs over $8m/year we should just let him go?

I can't imagine him costing that little in the current environment. You've been watching what's going on too, obviously. So that kind of means you are pretty much coming down on the side of letting him go unless he gives us some special bargain.

Is that right? You're ready not to re-sign Trevor Ariza; that's your recommendation, because he is too expensive for what he contributes (or just too expensive for us -- no matter how much he contributes)?

[nate33]

I currently have us at the following, am I making a mistake? I believe that veteran minimum contracts count against the cap but not against the luxury tax, correct?

Code: Select all

Nene             13,000,000
John Wall        13,701,250
Marcin Gortat    12,000,000
Martell Webster   5,381,750
Andre Miller      4,625,000
Bradley Beal      4,505,280
Otto Porter       4,470,480
Kevin Seraphin    3,898,692
Drew Gooden       1,448,490
Glen Rice           816,482
Total            63,847,424


You are essentially right. We have no room to "go after" Parsons, Deng, or anyone else noteworthy. All we have are exemptions. We can use the Larry Bird Exemption for Ariza, and/or we can use the MLE for anyone.

[dckingsfan]

I currently have us at the following, am I making a mistake? I believe that veteran minimum contracts count against the cap but not against the luxury tax, correct?

Code: Select all

Nene             13,000,000
John Wall        13,701,250
Marcin Gortat    12,000,000
Martell Webster   5,381,750
Andre Miller      4,625,000
Bradley Beal      4,505,280
Otto Porter       4,470,480
Kevin Seraphin    3,898,692
Drew Gooden       1,448,490
Glen Rice           816,482
Total            63,847,424


You are essentially right. We have no room to "go after" Parsons, Deng, or anyone else noteworthy. All we have are exemptions. We can use the Larry Bird Exemption for Ariza, and/or we can use the MLE for anyone.

OK, then I agree with your logic of front loading the contracts per the other thread. Although, I would be more for a declining scale than just targeting a specific year for FAs.

[stevemcqueen1]

Just to give you some context,
Barnes first 2 seasons in the nba are statistically better in most categories than arizas first 7, he has only been in the league 2 years, you guys have to realize that ariza want not that good in his first 2 years in the league. Barnes has a future in the league just like Ariza did.

But Ariza's guaranteed future is in the past, while a failed past could still be Barnes' future. When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks into you.

Yesterday it was simon & garfunkel, today it's... I don't know, maybe Mallarme?? This forum is very educational!

Hm, I think there was some Nietzsche in that quote.

[stevemcqueen1]

Wouldn't mind going after Vince Carter if Ariza walks.

Also, I wouldn't mind looking into an Anthony Bennett trade if the Cavs were trying to dump him at all costs.

[verbal8]

Wouldn't mind going after Vince Carter if Ariza walks.

Also, I wouldn't mind looking into an Anthony Bennett trade if the Cavs were trying to dump him at all costs.

Even if Bennett is sure to be a disappointment, I think they see what they have for at least another season.

[LyricalRico]

Someone asked in one of these threads about Wiz TPE's. Looks like we have two:

$1.25M (expires 10/27/14)
$2M (expires 2/20/15)

http://data.shamsports.com/content/page ... washington

[thinker07]

You need to read this piece from Nate Duncan at Basketball Insiders on why the contracts being handed out are so high. It definitely is a game changer. And definitely puts a different perspective on Gortat and Ariza.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/enormous-contracts-are-the-nbas-new-reality/

[nate33]

Someone asked in one of these threads about Wiz TPE's. Looks like we have two:

$1.25M (expires 10/27/14)
$2M (expires 2/20/15)

http://data.shamsports.com/content/page ... washington

FWIW, TPE's can't be combined and they can't be added to a player as outgoing salary. Basically, we can only use them to trade for guys on really small contracts (vet minimum contracts, for the most part). They're too small to be all that useful. The best case scenario is that a team needs to shave an extra million of salary in order to make a deal work out, and they send a minimum salary vet to us (plus cash to pay his salary) in exchange for our TPE.

[Severn Hoos]

Someone asked in one of these threads about Wiz TPE's. Looks like we have two:

$1.25M (expires 10/27/14)
$2M (expires 2/20/15)

http://data.shamsports.com/content/page ... washington

FWIW, TPE's can't be combined and they can't be added to a player as outgoing salary. Basically, we can only use them to trade for guys on really small contracts (vet minimum contracts, for the most part). They're too small to be all that useful. The best case scenario is that a team needs to shave an extra million of salary in order to make a deal work out, and they send a minimum salary vet to us (plus cash to pay his salary) in exchange for our TPE.

Can a TPE be used to take in a guy who is S&T from his current team? I suppose they could do something like Sefolosha (if he would agree to a $2M starting salary) for the TPE and a 2nd round pick, if they wanted to preserve their other exceptions?

[gambitx777]

Just to give you some context,
Barnes first 2 seasons in the nba are statistically better in most categories than arizas first 7, he has only been in the league 2 years, you guys have to realize that ariza want not that good in his first 2 years in the league. Barnes has a future in the league just like Ariza did.

First off, back to school and a class on logic and inference. The fact that Ariza got better over time is no indication whatever that Harrison Barnes will also get better over time. Literally zero. If I have a steak for dinner tonight, does that mean you'll have one tomorrow night?

Secondly, no, unless you like to cherry pick, Barnes' numbers his first two years weren't better than Trevor's, they were worse both years. Fewer blocks, fewer steals, fewer rebounds, got to the line less. Keep in mind that Trevor did not shoot the 3 at all his first two years.

Trevor came into the league at 19. Barles came in a year older. Trevor made a significant productivity jump his third year and a big one his 4th year. No, that doesn't mean that Harrison Barnes will as well.

Doesn't mean he won't either. But if we're targeting young guys to replace Ariza, he isn't at the top of the list.

That last line is the point I was making, It's not fair to say that someone is bad when he is only 2 years in the league and add to the fact that he's not that bad, you can't just say, " Oh banes sucks and ariza is amazing". It's not fair, the kid has talent and shows few few signs that he will have a short NBA career, no more than Ariza did.

[verbal8]

Yes a TPE can be used for a S&T deal, if the last team has some type of bird rights on the player. The Wizards could potentially get a player at the LLE level using the TPE from Maynor. However it would probably cost a future 2nd from the team signing and trading the player. It also will likely cost the Wizards an extra year on the contract, unless the player really wants to play for the Wizards.

Can a TPE be used to take in a guy who is S&T from his current team? I suppose they could do something like Sefolosha (if he would agree to a $2M starting salary) for the TPE and a 2nd round pick, if they wanted to preserve their other exceptions?

[payitforward]

Wouldn't mind going after Vince Carter if Ariza walks.

Also, I wouldn't mind looking into an Anthony Bennett trade if the Cavs were trying to dump him at all costs.

Nietzsche likes Carter; he's a veteran ubermensch. Bennett not so much.

[payitforward]

Just to give you some context,
Barnes first 2 seasons in the nba are statistically better in most categories than arizas first 7, he has only been in the league 2 years, you guys have to realize that ariza want not that good in his first 2 years in the league. Barnes has a future in the league just like Ariza did.

First off, back to school and a class on logic and inference. The fact that Ariza got better over time is no indication whatever that Harrison Barnes will also get better over time. Literally zero. If I have a steak for dinner tonight, does that mean you'll have one tomorrow night?

Secondly, no, unless you like to cherry pick, Barnes' numbers his first two years weren't better than Trevor's, they were worse both years. Fewer blocks, fewer steals, fewer rebounds, got to the line less. Keep in mind that Trevor did not shoot the 3 at all his first two years.

Trevor came into the league at 19. Barnes came in a year older. Trevor made a significant productivity jump his third year and a big one his 4th year. No, that doesn't mean that Harrison Barnes will as well.

Doesn't mean he won't either. But if we're targeting young guys to replace Ariza, he isn't at the top of the list.

That last line is the point I was making, It's not fair to say that someone is bad when he is only 2 years in the league and add to the fact that he's not that bad, you can't just say, " Oh banes sucks and ariza is amazing". It's not fair, the kid has talent and shows few few signs that he will have a short NBA career, no more than Ariza did.

So what should I do, just repeat exactly what I wrote? Of course it's "fair" to say someone is bad! These statements are made in the context of decisions, and it's straightforward and simple that we want guys that there's a reason to think are "good."

You argued a) Barnes is a comparable for Ariza, because his first two years were in most ways better, but no they worse, and b) you concluded that because Ariza got better, "Barnes has a future in this league just like Ariza;" that's not right either.

I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't ever project a player based on anything but his performance so far. Of course, sometimes a guy who was "bad" becomes "good." You name it, and it's likely whatever you name has happened once or a few times! But that's not a basis for making decisions, and so far Harrison Barnes doesn't look like much of an NBA player. I'm not a hater; I wish him well. But right now, I wouldn't turn in his direction to solve any of my problems.

[gambitx777]

First off, back to school and a class on logic and inference. The fact that Ariza got better over time is no indication whatever that Harrison Barnes will also get better over time. Literally zero. If I have a steak for dinner tonight, does that mean you'll have one tomorrow night?

Secondly, no, unless you like to cherry pick, Barnes' numbers his first two years weren't better than Trevor's, they were worse both years. Fewer blocks, fewer steals, fewer rebounds, got to the line less. Keep in mind that Trevor did not shoot the 3 at all his first two years.

Trevor came into the league at 19. Barnes came in a year older. Trevor made a significant productivity jump his third year and a big one his 4th year. No, that doesn't mean that Harrison Barnes will as well.

Doesn't mean he won't either. But if we're targeting young guys to replace Ariza, he isn't at the top of the list.

That last line is the point I was making, It's not fair to say that someone is bad when he is only 2 years in the league and add to the fact that he's not that bad, you can't just say, " Oh banes sucks and ariza is amazing". It's not fair, the kid has talent and shows few few signs that he will have a short NBA career, no more than Ariza did.

So what should I do, just repeat exactly what I wrote? Of course it's "fair" to say someone is bad! These statements are made in the context of decisions, and it's straightforward and simple that we want guys that there's a reason to think are "good."

You argued a) Barnes is a comparable for Ariza, because his first two years were in most ways better, but no they worse, and b) you concluded that because Ariza got better, "Barnes has a future in this league just like Ariza;" that's not right either.

I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't ever project a player based on anything but his performance so far. Of course, sometimes a guy who was "bad" becomes "good." You name it, and it's likely whatever you name has happened once or a few times! But that's not a basis for making decisions, and so far Harrison Barnes doesn't look like much of an NBA player. I'm not a hater; I wish him well. But right now, I wouldn't turn in his direction to solve any of my problems.

And I watch him play and I look at his stats and I have a different opinion than you. I m also of the opinion that you can not look at a guy, who plays like Barnes, who is not busting, and say oh yeah hes done. some players need to learn, and in no way is barnes showing that he is a bust, he's not jan, he's got skills, but again that's an opinion, you are entitled to yours, I just don't agree.

[payitforward]

That last line is the point I was making, It's not fair to say that someone is bad when he is only 2 years in the league and add to the fact that he's not that bad, you can't just say, " Oh banes sucks and ariza is amazing". It's not fair, the kid has talent and shows few few signs that he will have a short NBA career, no more than Ariza did.

So what should I do, just repeat exactly what I wrote? Of course it's "fair" to say someone is bad! These statements are made in the context of decisions, and it's straightforward and simple that we want guys that there's a reason to think are "good."

You argued a) Barnes is a comparable for Ariza, because his first two years were in most ways better, but no they worse, and b) you concluded that because Ariza got better, "Barnes has a future in this league just like Ariza;" that's not right either.

I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't ever project a player based on anything but his performance so far. Of course, sometimes a guy who was "bad" becomes "good." You name it, and it's likely whatever you name has happened once or a few times! But that's not a basis for making decisions, and so far Harrison Barnes doesn't look like much of an NBA player. I'm not a hater; I wish him well. But right now, I wouldn't turn in his direction to solve any of my problems.

And I watch him play and I look at his stats and I have a different opinion than you. I m also of the opinion that you can not look at a guy, who plays like Barnes, who is not busting, and say oh yeah hes done. some players need to learn, and in no way is barnes showing that he is a bust, he's not jan, he's got skills, but again that's an opinion, you are entitled to yours, I just don't agree.

Dude, you are right. He's not Jan. As to "opinions," as we all know they are free -- you can have as many as you want. Again, I'm not a Barnes-hater (though I would have hated us to draft him of course, say if Charlotte had taken Beal), and I don't think he's "done." Just don't see any reason to expect much more growth out of him is all.

But, lets drop it, ok -- and lets both hope that Harrison Barnes becomes a monster player. Even if you get to say "I told you so!"

[LyricalRico]

Someone asked in one of these threads about Wiz TPE's. Looks like we have two:

$1.25M (expires 10/27/14)
$2M (expires 2/20/15)

http://data.shamsports.com/content/page ... washington

FWIW, TPE's can't be combined and they can't be added to a player as outgoing salary. Basically, we can only use them to trade for guys on really small contracts (vet minimum contracts, for the most part). They're too small to be all that useful. The best case scenario is that a team needs to shave an extra million of salary in order to make a deal work out, and they send a minimum salary vet to us (plus cash to pay his salary) in exchange for our TPE.

Maybe we can get a guy like Tyler Zeller if Cleveland wanted a bit more cap space for another move.

[nate33]

Someone asked in one of these threads about Wiz TPE's. Looks like we have two:

$1.25M (expires 10/27/14)
$2M (expires 2/20/15)

http://data.shamsports.com/content/page ... washington

FWIW, TPE's can't be combined and they can't be added to a player as outgoing salary. Basically, we can only use them to trade for guys on really small contracts (vet minimum contracts, for the most part). They're too small to be all that useful. The best case scenario is that a team needs to shave an extra million of salary in order to make a deal work out, and they send a minimum salary vet to us (plus cash to pay his salary) in exchange for our TPE.

Maybe we can get a guy like Tyler Zeller if Cleveland wanted a bit more cap space for another move.

Yeah, that's the kind of stuff that could work out. We could add someone like Fransico Garcia plus a 2nd round pick if Houston wanted to generate a bit more cap room.

[gambitx777]

I was thinking more about GS and how GS has a nice trade exception. If I'm right it's about 9 mill or so. Would any one be opposed to sending Ariza over to them in a sign and trade for Barnes or Green? I know I mentioned Banres before, But if we could get them to part with either of them, I think that would be something. As much as I like Barnes I like Green a lot too. Any overall thoughts on a S&T sending Ariza west?