Melo #14- Can Melo Come Out and Play?

[IndianPlaya17]

Why does everyone think the Bulls are financial strapped? If they need to make necessary moves, they will. Just need a commitment from Melo first.

Also, if every thinks the Knicks will have a lot of cap space next year with the TV deal or whatever, so will the Bulls.

They have only Rose, Noah and Taj on the books for 2015-2016. Snell is a team option and Butler is a player option.

Can they not just offer Melo the max (after clearing some space: MDJ, unguarantees, etc.) and pay the luxury tax for 1 season and get under next year?

They'd still have the core of Melo, Rose, Noah and Taj.

[the ultimates]

If Carmelo picks the Bulls the Knicks will do a sign and trade and be a lot more likely to take Boozer and other assets. Jackson can't sell not getting his first choice as head coach then letting Carmelo leave for absolutely nothing.

[fleet]

plenty of NY attitude. I tire of reading it, but I wanted to ask...

This is not the only place where it has been written the Bulls tried to go the capspace route with Melo. I take this to mean, the Bulls did not even attempt a S&T scenario at this point. Phil must have written "No (Boozer) S&T" down in blood.

So I assume where we are at is that in order to get Phil to possibly budge on S&Ts, we will require Melo to say to the Knicks that he will go to the Bulls for their capspace offer no matter what. However, the gist that I am getting from reports like this is that Melo needs a bigger Bulls offer in order to consider that kind of hardball play, and will not cooperate?

So, to sum it up in terms of drawing conclusions:
-Melo won't play hardball to force a S&T with the Knicks because of the small size of the Bulls offer. He is not willing to play for that.
-Phil is not gonna move on the S&T situation. The Bulls seem to believe him.
-The Bulls have to trade Taj Gibson in order to get that basic capspace offer up to a point where Melo will play for it.
-However, both the Bulls and Melo don't even want to go there with Taj. Melo doesn't want to be here if he can't win (because Taj would not be here). And he also doesn't want to be here if he can't get paid more than what the Bulls have to offer with Taj still on the team.

Even though this has been said before in more glib fashion in other articles, it finally sinks in. Sounds to me, there is no way out of this? I don't want to say the patient is dead yet. However, if these are the basic tentpoles of the situation, the Bulls should be moving on.

(Indeed perhaps the Boozer amnesty is not being done with Melo in mind anymore)

The Boozer amnesty thing needs to cool off. Boozer was told that he would be traded or amnestied. Some reporters ran with amnesty thing not understanding the details.

As far as your synopsis, there are several other outs:
- The Bulls find a 3rd team to take on Boozer. If they send him to Philly or Utah or LA or Orlando with 2 firsts, there is no way NY turns down something like Mirotic or a pick for the sign and trade. And yes, this has been reported that Chicago has gone down this route by multiple sources.

Oh, now I remember. They have found zero interest right? So that would explain the lack of a S&T offer for Melo to take to the Knicks. This makes things very difficult in a fast moving market. They don't have all summer.

- Carmelo comes to NY and says "I'm out. I prefer a sign and trade to Chicago but if you can't work out a deal with the Bulls in the next 24 hours, I'm signing in LA". If that happens, NY is going to change its mind real quick on the sign and trade.

If I was NY, there is no way I would start negotiating a reasonable sign and trade until I had a gun to my head. As of this minute, they don't have that. If anything, they are the favorites to retain him. Why start tipping your hand when you are winning?

Alright, but the Bulls didn't even send Melo a higher salaried S&T offer. They only sent him a low capspace offer. From reports.

[Betta Bulleavit]

http://nypost.com/2014/07/02/anthony-does-texas-2-step-with-rockets-on-second-day-of-tour/







plenty of NY attitude. I tire of reading it, but I wanted to ask...

This is not the only place where it has been written the Bulls tried to go the capspace route with Melo. I take this to mean, the Bulls did not even attempt a S&T scenario at this point. Phil must have written "No (Boozer) S&T" down in blood.

So I assume where we are at is that in order to get Phil to possibly budge on S&Ts, we will require Melo to say to the Knicks that he will go to the Bulls for their capspace offer no matter what. However, the gist that I am getting from reports like this is that Melo needs a bigger Bulls offer in order to consider that kind of hardball play, and will not cooperate?

So, to sum it up in terms of drawing conclusions:
-Melo won't play hardball to force a S&T with the Knicks because of the small size of the Bulls offer. He is not willing to play for that.
-Phil is not gonna move on the S&T situation. The Bulls seem to believe him.
-The Bulls have to trade Taj Gibson in order to get that basic capspace offer up to a point where Melo will play for it.
-However, both the Bulls and Melo don't even want to go there with Taj. Melo doesn't want to be here if he can't win (because Taj would not be here). And he also doesn't want to be here if he can't get paid more than what the Bulls have to offer with Taj still on the team.

Even though this has been said before in more glib fashion in other articles, it finally sinks in. Sounds to me, there is no way out of this? I don't want to say the patient is dead yet. However, if these are the basic tentpoles of the situation, the Bulls should be moving on.

(Indeed perhaps the Boozer amnesty is not being done with Melo in mind anymore)

Here's the thing. The vast majority of the media (Chicago included) seems to have a difficult time grasping the fact that a S&T doesn't necessarily have to entail Boozer going to the Knicks. It's a very popular assumption. Just as many assumed that JR was too cheap to amnesty Boozer and that assumption became reality even though there was no truth to it. Also note that every report that has come out (especially from the NY media) is that Phil has no interest in taking Boozer back in a S&T. However, none of them have said that Jackson outright refuses to do a S&T at all.

So this in turn leads to the assumption that the Bulls can only offer 15.8 million to Anthony and it's also assumed that this is exactly what was discussed in our meeting with him even though most indications are that we didn't really talk hard core money with Melo because of the fact that there are so many different directions that this thing could go. In addition, Taj being part of the recruiting pitch also fed the fire that the Bulls were automatically looking to go the pure cap space route. But again, that's just another lazy assumption based on a severe lack of understanding of the CBA dynamics.

-we don't hear about the Bulls poking around for a 3rd team.
-we assume Phil (or Dolan) wouldn't play this to the bone and risk losing Melo for nothing, because....
A) The Knicks think Melo will not turn down the super max, and don't feel inclined to entertain offers
B) The Knicks are completely unwilling to trade Carmelo

-The Bulls haven't even given Melo a higher salary figure for his agent to work with, why not?
-Maybe the Bulls don't want to up the S&T ante offer into what it would take to get Phil/Dolan to relent and lose Melo. i.e., offering Mirotic and McDougie. Could be a non starter for them.

You are right. There are certainly ALOT of IF factors here. Having said that, if they are convinced that Melo is going to leave (be it Chicago or anywhere else), I have a hard time believing that they wouldn't want to get some type of assets back for him.

Therefore, I am going to go ahead and make a bold prediction that for the first time (ever perhaps) a huge 3-way trade is brewing between the three largest markets in the NBA.

Bulls get: Melo and Gasol
Lakers get: Boozer, Snell, Bulls 2017 pick
Knicks get: Mirotic, Dunleavy, Randolph, Bulls 2015 pick, Sac pick, ungauranteeds and a big TPE

Bulls do it for obvious reasons. The Lakers do it because it essentially preserves their cap space to use towards Love while getting a couple of future assets. The Knicks do it because they get Mirotic (whom would probably come over for them this year) a couple of future picks to jump start the rebuild and a TPE all while maintaining their cap position for 2015.

[DuckIII]

Just think of Cleveland and Toronto in 2010...refused to do a S&T and look what happened..

Both Cleveland and Toronto did sign and trades that summer. They just did crappy ones, because unlike Chicago, Miami had all the leverage because:

(a) They had more space than we do.

(b) Bosh and LeBron specifically demanded to be traded there, or they'd just sign outright.

For us, we are offering Melo a significantly larger pay cut and he's not gone to the Knicks and said "I'm going to Chicago no matter what, so if you want something, you better sign and trade me."

[BullsFTW]

Maybe Taj did the presentation to save his spot with the Bulls lol

If the Bulls amnesty Boozer and trade away Taj, MDJ, Snell, Smith and Randolph for cap-space, they can offer Melo a starting salary of about $19M and offer Pau $5M.

I prefer to keep Taj, but you trade him if it means getting Melo & Pau.

Anthony- $18,836,790
Rose - $18,862,876
Noah - $12,700,000
Butler - $2,008,748
Pau - $5,000,000
McDermott - $1,898,300
Roster charge ($507,336) x 7 = $3,551,352
Rip* - $333,334

[ryannik09]

Alright, but the Bulls didn't even send Melo a higher salaried S&T offer. They only sent him a low capspace offer. From reports.

Come on, do you really believe that???? Do you think the Bulls looked at Melo and said $16mm is our one and only offer? I am sure we told Melo we need you to agree to this amount, then we will work on a S&T with NY to get you as close to 4yrs/$96mm as we can. The Bulls arent stupid.

[DaeDae]

http://nypost.com/2014/07/02/anthony-does-texas-2-step-with-rockets-on-second-day-of-tour/

Sweet home, Chicago?
Maybe not for Carmelo Anthony.
With the Melopalooza set to hit Los Angeles on Friday, the Bulls’ position appears to be weakening. According to an NBA source, the Bulls, during Tuesday’s meetings, floated the idea of Anthony making about $16 million per year across four seasons — a sum that is not going to move the needle away from Anthony’s pre-trip gut feeling to stick with the Knicks.

The Bulls are over the cap and can manage a starting salary of $17 million only if they amnesty Carlos Boozer and trade both Mike Dunleavy and Jimmy Butler. That would create a contract worth $72.6 million over four years.

Hence, it appears the only chance the Bulls and Anthony have at a marriage is if they can coax Jackson into a sign-and-trade, and the Knicks president has shown no inclination toward cooperating. That’s why the Knicks have remained so confident. In fact ESPN.com reports Jackson is opposed to a sign-and-trade deal centering around Boozer. The Chicago Tribune reported Bulls officials nevertheless feel they “connected’’ with Anthony.

Before the Anthony free-agency tour, The Post quoted a source connected to Anthony’s inner circle saying, “There’s reason to believe he’s staying.’’

plenty of NY attitude. I tire of reading it, but I wanted to ask...

This is not the only place where it has been written the Bulls tried to go the capspace route with Melo. I take this to mean, the Bulls did not even attempt a S&T scenario at this point. Phil must have written "No (Boozer) S&T" down in blood.

So I assume where we are at is that in order to get Phil to possibly budge on S&Ts, we will require Melo to say to the Knicks that he will go to the Bulls for their capspace offer no matter what. However, the gist that I am getting from reports like this is that Melo needs a bigger Bulls offer in order to consider that kind of hardball play, and will not cooperate?

So, to sum it up in terms of drawing conclusions:
-Melo won't play hardball to force a S&T with the Knicks because of the small size of the Bulls offer. He is not willing to play for that.
-Phil is not gonna move on the S&T situation. The Bulls seem to believe him.
-The Bulls have to trade Taj Gibson in order to get that basic capspace offer up to a point where Melo will play for it.
-However, both the Bulls and Melo don't even want to go there with Taj. Melo doesn't want to be here if he can't win (because Taj would not be here). And he also doesn't want to be here if he can't get paid more than what the Bulls have to offer with Taj still on the team.

Even though this has been said before in more glib fashion in other articles, it finally sinks in. Sounds to me, there is no way out of this? I don't want to say the patient is dead yet. However, if these are the basic tentpoles of the situation, the Bulls should be moving on.

(Indeed perhaps the Boozer amnesty is not being done with Melo in mind anymore)

But will Melo really want to force us to give away a lot for him to come here. We really can't offer more to the Knicks other than boozer+2 1st+1 2nd+ unguaranteeds for Melo+JR. That seems like a pretty fair trade honestly. Melo also knows that he can't force his next team to strip everything just to get him because then it makes it even longer to build a roster around you especially now that teams are overpaying guys left and right. It's been said already in this thread this is time for Melo to put his money where his mouth is and prove he's a man of his word. He said he doesn't care about money over winning, he said he could retire right now, he said he doesn't wants to win so he knows what he's got to do. If you don't want to take 16mil then force a S&T where you can get around 20mil, but don't expect to come here and then want us to give you 20mil through capspace.

We gotta stop with this nonsense that trading Taj Gibson is somehow "stripping everything", or including Mirotic, Butler and picks. He's coming here to play with Joakim Noah, and Derrick Rose. And especially Thibs. Those are the TENTPOLES of our organization going forward. Not Taj Gibson. Taj Gibson, is not a superstar. He's not (and not likely to become) an All-Star. He's a very good Horace Grant type defensive PF. But Dammit, if Horace Grant stands between you and adding the best scorer in the league to your team, then you pack Horace's **** and drive his ass to the airport.

As much as I would like to see a Big 3 and a half (Taj gibson being considered part of a big 4 is insulting to my intelligence) here, I remain convinced that if we didn't explore options that DIDN'T include Taj Gibson, or if we didn't try to downplay his role (and it looks like we didn't), that in the end, that will be a mistake.

What the bulls need to do is bluff that they are prepared to move Taj Gibson to a 3rd team (NOT the knicks), and MELO needs to bluff that ONCE THEY DO, he will sign with them outright.

And if that doesn't work, they need to ACTUALLY MOVE Taj Gibson to a 3rd team, and convince melo that they can pay him enough to sign outright, AND STILL WIN without Horace Gr.....I mean Taj Gibson.

The one area where they misplayed this is by including him in these meetings, signaling that they were not willing to trade him. It allowed NY to hedge their bets that the financial differences will be too massive, and also to play hardball in any sign and trade possibility.

[Chitownbulls]

Bulls didnt come to the tabke with their best offer yet...were going to up the ante today! Lets see what happens

[thejet1711]

I'm already over Melo. Don't know if he will come here or not, but starting not to care anymore. If he does, great. If not, I''ll take Ariza and Love please.

[Chitownbulls]

Move Taj....sign Melo an Pau an go win titles!!!!!

[ryannik09]

I have a strong suspicion the Bulls are going to sneak in a second meeting with Melo today. Schedule a meeting with Pau in LA today who is their #2 option on the same day Melo is scheduled to be in LA to meet with the LAL.

It just seems like the perfect opportunity to sneak in another meeting with Melo under the guise that they are only out there to meet with Pau.

[TyrusRose2425]

I have a strong suspicion the Bulls are going to sneak in a second meeting with Melo today. Schedule a meeting with Pau in LA today who is their #2 option on the same day Melo is scheduled to be in LA to meet with the LAL.

It just seems like the perfect opportunity to sneak in another meeting with Melo under the guise that they are only out there to meet with Pau.

My guess is that he will have a similar all day meeting with the Lakers today. Start late, for example 1PM LA time, have the meeting, have dinner with them, then fly back home late after everything.

[MAQ]

Gotta say, for the state of my mental health, I am glad I don't follow these threads as closely as I used to.

Just want Monday to hurry up and get here.

[rose2jfat]

They already gave Melo their pitch. Trying to force more time just smacks of desperation and trying to pressure him. And what purpose does it really serve?

[blumeany]

I highly doubt that after 9 hours of meeting with Melo that the Bulls ended the day saying "So, we've got 16 million for ya, so, think that over and get back to us!" So these rumors that the Bulls did just that are bunk IMHO. Gasol is also not a realistic Plan B - I totally buy the conspiracy theory that Plan A.2 is to lure Anthony with a potential pairing with Gasol. In this scenario, both Boozer and Taj would be gone. Bulls' preference is to go with Taj, but if they need more 'oomf' to sell Anthony, they'll do some deals for Gasol.

[BahamaBull]

I'm already over Melo. Don't know if he will come here or not, but starting not to care anymore. If he does, great. If not, I''ll take Ariza and Love please.

I never believed hes leaving NY...Thats too much money to walk away from...I would sign back with the Knicks asap. Melo just want to get spoiled...Hes a FA for the 1st time in his life...Hes just enjoying the moment...I would focus on Kevin Love...Much better fit and much younger...

[BullsFTW]

The Bulls shouldn't be hesitant to trade Taj if Pau can agree to $5M and the way to get Melo is through signing him outright, because NYK will not want to cooperate.

F Melo/McDermott
F Pau
C Noah
G Jimmy
G Rose/Hinrich

[Chitownbulls]

I believe they will too....they both will be in LA!

[TyrusRose2425]

Is decision coming Monday? I was hoping for Saturday :\