Melo #14- Can Melo Come Out and Play?

[Stolos26]

Not liking our chances guys. Have a feeling things are going to get very depressing here in a couple days.

I'm just pissed Carmelo said a couple months ago that he doesn't need money and winning is his number 1 priority. Like why even say that if you just waiting for the Knicks to offer you the max?

[Peelboy]

Lowry & Gortat are signed (so one main piece Heat and Rockets were looking at is gone). Deng reportedly isnt going to Heat at a discount. So IMO Bulls should be letting Melo (or Rose who would tell him) know that the East is there for the taking. At best Miami's going to get 3d tier guys with their capspace (and who knows - if they can't make any significant adds, maybe LeBron actually goes elsewhere?). If Melo comes to Bulls for say $16M, Bulls would IMO be a clear favorite to come out of the East.

[Sonny_D1]

Oh jeeze. I think Taj would go in a heartbeat if that's what it took to get Melo. We are talking about a backup coming up on 30 years old that owes his game in part to the culture he is surrounded by in Chicago. And what I mean by that, Taj like Deng, is expendable. The Bulls way isn't going to cease to be because Taj isn't around.

Now for sure, Taj is a great fit for this current Bulls squad. My dad's favorite player and I'm sure many more fans have Taj pegged as their favorite guy....But life will simply go on without Taj...And not some gloomy rainy day life...no...Life without Taj would be just fine. There are many ways to skin a cat...The Bulls culture will remain in place so long as Pax/Thibs/Rose/Noah are there. Those are some hard nosed dudes that were hear from the start of this current hard nosed group.

Taj and whoever else can go to get Melo. There are so many ways to make a Rose/Melo/Noah core work, especially with some very good talent still left over.

Spot on. Except I don't believe the Bulls feel this way. Using him in their pitch to Melo, I think, is a pretty clear indication of this.

[nykgeneralmanager]

Trade Taj (easily I might add). Capspace cleared. You are wrong.

thats simply not going to happen.

So Phil is going to let him walk for nothing? If he chooses the Bulls he will be comfortable with the amount of money they can give whether it involves a sign and trade or cap space.

None of us could possibly know that.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

thats simply not going to happen.

So Phil is going to let him walk for nothing? If he chooses the Bulls he will be comfortable with the amount of money they can give whether it involves a sign and trade or cap space.

None of us could possibly know that.

Which part?

[BrooklynBulls]

I just think you give yourself a better chance and more options not including Taj in the pitch. Now you've pretty much backed yourself in a corner where you're forced to keep Taj because your main selling point was a "complete" roster. Besides, the selling point should always be a big 3 with a stable of solid role players. The Bulls tried to turn this into a Big 3.75 and it's going to backfire in the end.

Consider the competition. Houston primarily. The can offer a roster of Harden, Parsons, Howard, and Melo. And they can offer more money. How do we compete against that? Our angle is that they don't have Thibs, he would be the "big" star here, and we play in the less competitive East. We need more of an edge than that. Having Gibson not only provides a guy he's friendly with, but also provides a guy who saves Melo defensive effort. Parsons is a better player, but Gibson allows Melo to play his natural position, take easier defensive assignments. I think our angle is pretty carefully calculated to be "the team perfectly built for Melo", because I think Houston has the better raw talent to work with. We can't compete with that, no state income tax, and higher starting salary, not without Taj.

[Hans Embiid]

Houston doesn't play defense. A team in full strength knocked out of the 1st round isn't going to cut it.

[nykgeneralmanager]

So Phil is going to let him walk for nothing? If he chooses the Bulls he will be comfortable with the amount of money they can give whether it involves a sign and trade or cap space.

None of us could possibly know that.

Which part?

That Melo would be okay with any amount the Bulls can offer, whether it's with cap space of a S&T.

[davhern]

Not liking our chances guys. Have a feeling things are going to get very depressing here in a couple days.

I'm just pissed Carmelo said a couple months ago that he doesn't need money and winning is his number 1 priority. Like why even say that if you just waiting for the Knicks to offer you the max?

Why do you believe otherwise if you believe what he said?

The only thing we've even heard come out of all of this the last couple days is that winning is his priority (from Drexler, I believe).

The rest is just what most everyone assumes/speculates.

[the ultimates]

thats simply not going to happen.

So Phil is going to let him walk for nothing? If he chooses the Bulls he will be comfortable with the amount of money they can give whether it involves a sign and trade or cap space.

None of us could possibly know that.

So you think after a such a long meeting with the Bulls the only scenario that he comes to Chicago is sign and trade? With so many people trying to say Phil won't do a deal that doesn't make sense. They'll try to get Carmelo the most they can through the sign and trade but if Phil doesn't want to do business it's not going to make Carmelo turn around and come back to New York.

[BrooklynBulls]

Houston doesn't play defense. A team in full strength knocked out of the 1st round isn't going to cut it.

We were knocked out in the first round. In the East. We don't play offense. The corollary argument is just as easy to make. B-b-b-but D-Rose wasn't healthy? Yeah, and he hasn't been for like 3 years.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

None of us could possibly know that.

Which part?

That Melo would be okay with any amount the Bulls can offer, whether it's with cap space of a S&T.

I think you're missing an important part of that sentence - 'if he chooses the Bulls'. If he's choosing the Bulls, then hes clearly okay with what they've offered him - because if he's not, then he's not going to choose the Bulls.

[Sonny_D1]

Ugh....are we truly back to an argument of whether or not New York will do a S&T?

If Carmelo chooses the Bulls...IF that happens...

The Knicks WILL 100 percent participate in a S&T. 100 percent. Phil isn't going to be in the business of revenge and sour grapes if Melo doesn't want to play there; he'll be in the business of assett accumulation.

The Knicks and Bulls will come to a compromise on compensation, and Melo will get his max money. IT SIMPLY COMES DOWN TO CARMELO'S DECISION.

That decision will have to boil down to Melo first agreeing to accept $16m or so. Then S&T options, along with more salary, will begin to take place.

[CousinOfDeath]

Guys look..this is what it all boils down to. The Bulls can acquire both Melo and Gasol but they are going to have to be willing to be very flexible. They are going to have to be willing to give ALL of the following:

Boozer (no brainer)
Mirotic (hold yourself)
Dunleavy (Whatever)
Snell
Randolph
Non Guaranteeds
2015 First rounder
2017 First rounder
Sac Pick

So basically, every real asset that we have outside of Rose, Noah, Gibson, Jimmy, Doug and our 2016 pick.

Take out Mirotic and I'm fine with that.

Mirotic is the only thing worth a damn on that list, you can't take him out and expect other teams to have any interest in working with us.

[BrooklynBulls]

None of us could possibly know that.

Which part?

That Melo would be okay with any amount the Bulls can offer, whether it's with cap space of a S&T.

If Melo "chooses" us, he would be aware of the possibility of NY refusing an S&T. He'd either be ok with leaving for whatever capspace the Bulls had, or perhaps just remaining with the Knicks for max money. That's the only logical reason he'd choose us and not another team with more capspace.

[SlikRik7]

I'm certain it has done before, but could anybody outline the capspace and exception situation if we were to A- Amnesty Boozer, trade Dunleavy for nothing back, versus B- Trade Boozer and Dunleavy for nothing back?

Is it at all possible to Amnesty Boozer, trade Dunleavy, give Melo 18+ in an S&T if we include unguaranteeds, Butler, Snell, Randolph, etc? And if so, what exceptions would then be available to us, if any?

If the Bulls trade/amnesty everyone but Rose/Noah/Taj/Dougie and renounce all exceptions they will have approx 18 million in cap space to sign Melo. They would only have the RMLE (2.7 million) available to use.

If we amnesty Boozer and then trade MDJ, non-guaranteed, Butler, Snell, Randolph etc we are essentially doing the same thing as trading those players away - because we would stil have to fit Melo underneath the 63.2 million dollar cap (plus 100k). In this situation, because we are not sending out enough salary to match Melos incoming we have to use available cap space to make up the difference. This would require us to renounce all exception except the RMLE.

I don't think this is right. My understanding from Larry Coon's FAQ is that we are allowed to take back 150% of outgoing salary plus 100k if outgoing salary is $0 to 9.8M.

By my calculations, if we amnesty Boozer and waive Anthony Randolph (using the stretch provision to spread the cap hit over 3 years) and exercise our team option on the non-guaranteed deals, we are left with 9.5M is cap space remaining:

Derrick Rose $18,862,876
Joakim Noah $12,200,000
Taj Gibson $8,000,000
Mike Dunleavy $3,000,000
Jimmy Butler $2,119,214
Doug McDermott $1,898,300
Tony Snell $1,472,400
Greg Smith $948,163
Non-Guaranteed $1,310,286
Non-Guaranteed $1,448,490
Non-Guaranteed $1,310,286
Roster Cap Hold $507,336
Anthony Randold (Waived) $608,453
--
Total: $53,685,804
Cap Space: $9,514,196


Then trading the non-guaranteeds along with Dunleavy and Snell allows us to pay Anthony 22.4M in the first year of his contract, just 100k shy of the max:
22.4M = 9.5M + (1.31M+1.45M+1.3M+3M+1.47)*1.5 + .1M


If we instead do not exercise our team option on the non-guaranteeds and trade away Dunleavy and Snell for future draft picks from another team, the best offer we can make is 15.5M:

Derrick Rose $18,862,876
Joakim Noah $12,200,000
Taj Gibson $8,000,000
Mike Dunleavy $3,000,000
Jimmy Butler $2,119,214
Doug McDermott $1,898,300
Tony Snell $1,472,400
Greg Smith $948,163
Roster Cap Hold $507,336
Roster Cap Hold $507,336
Roster Cap Hold $507,336
Roster Cap Hold $507,336
Roster Cap Hold $507,336
Roster Cap Hold $507,336
Anthony Randold (Waived) $608,453
--
Total: $47,681,022
Cap Space: $15,518,978


So seems to me that getting Phil to agree to a sign and trade is indeed key.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

I just think you give yourself a better chance and more options not including Taj in the pitch. Now you've pretty much backed yourself in a corner where you're forced to keep Taj because your main selling point was a "complete" roster. Besides, the selling point should always be a big 3 with a stable of solid role players. The Bulls tried to turn this into a Big 3.75 and it's going to backfire in the end.

Consider the competition. Houston primarily. The can offer a roster of Harden, Parsons, Howard, and Melo. And they can offer more money. How do we compete against that? Our angle is that they don't have Thibs, he would be the "big" star here, and we play in the less competitive East. We need more of an edge than that. Having Gibson not only provides a guy he's friendly with, but also provides a guy who saves Melo defensive effort. Parsons is a better player, but Gibson allows Melo to play his natural position, take easier defensive assignments. I think our angle is pretty carefully calculated to be "the team perfectly built for Melo", because I think Houston has the better raw talent to work with. We can't compete with that, no state income tax, and higher starting salary, not without Taj.

I'd debate that.

[BrooklynBulls]

Mirotic is the only thing worth a damn on that list, you can't take him out and expect other teams to have any interest in working with us.

All our first rounders, sacramento's pick, and the rights to swap Cleveland's pick all have real value.

[Wont PerDont]

I'm just pissed Carmelo said a couple months ago that he doesn't need money and winning is his number 1 priority. Like why even say that if you just waiting for the Knicks to offer you the max?

Could be that he said that to leverege the Knicks into offering the max?

[umfan83]

Not liking our chances guys. Have a feeling things are going to get very depressing here in a couple days.

I'm just pissed Carmelo said a couple months ago that he doesn't need money and winning is his number 1 priority. Like why even say that if you just waiting for the Knicks to offer you the max?

Disclaimer: I'm not giving up on the Melo thing until he's at a PC with another teams jersey

This is why I didn't let myself get excited or hopeful for Melo. There are way too many variables at play for anything to be certain. How many top 10 players have actually changed teams via free agency? You are looking at Dwight in 13, LeBron and Bosh in 10, Grant Hill in 00, Shaq in 96. I'm sure I'm missing a couple, but the point is, it just doesn't happen often, and with the new CBA it should happen even less. The chances have always been against the Bulls getting Melo just because of the system, history and the amount of roster maneuvering the Bulls need to do to pay Melo what he wants.

And I wouldn't be pissed about what Melo said. If he returns to NYK for max money, it was likely all posturing to A) get the knicks to take his threats to leave seriously and B) get the Knicks to improve the team so he stays. It's annoying but almost any NBA superstar would do the same thing, thats the business of basketball behind the scenes, use the media and fans as leverage to get what you want.