Melo #14- Can Melo Come Out and Play?

[BrooklynBulls]

I just think you give yourself a better chance and more options not including Taj in the pitch. Now you've pretty much backed yourself in a corner where you're forced to keep Taj because your main selling point was a "complete" roster. Besides, the selling point should always be a big 3 with a stable of solid role players. The Bulls tried to turn this into a Big 3.75 and it's going to backfire in the end.

Consider the competition. Houston primarily. The can offer a roster of Harden, Parsons, Howard, and Melo. And they can offer more money. How do we compete against that? Our angle is that they don't have Thibs, he would be the "big" star here, and we play in the less competitive East. We need more of an edge than that. Having Gibson not only provides a guy he's friendly with, but also provides a guy who saves Melo defensive effort. Parsons is a better player, but Gibson allows Melo to play his natural position, take easier defensive assignments. I think our angle is pretty carefully calculated to be "the team perfectly built for Melo", because I think Houston has the better raw talent to work with. We can't compete with that, no state income tax, and higher starting salary, not without Taj.

I'd debate that.

Hopefully Melo would too.

[BahamaBull]

Not liking our chances guys. Have a feeling things are going to get very depressing here in a couple days.

I'm just pissed Carmelo said a couple months ago that he doesn't need money and winning is his number 1 priority. Like why even say that if you just waiting for the Knicks to offer you the max?

Ok, so do what Im doing...I dont believe Melo is coming...Im really focusing on that plan B...Problem is...What is our plan B??

[davhern]

Houston doesn't play defense. A team in full strength knocked out of the 1st round isn't going to cut it.

We were knocked out in the first round. In the East. We don't play offense. The corollary argument is just as easy to make. B-b-b-but D-Rose wasn't healthy? Yeah, and he hasn't been for like 3 years.

Does that change the fact that we weren't at full strength and will have Rose next year?

Say what you will about the injuries. Obviously, there is SOME reason for concern... but by the accounts we have, he is healthy. He looked to have most, if not all, of his athleticism after the ACL injury and the subsequent meniscus tear is supposed to be considerably less worrisome in terms of recovery.

Having a returning Rose with some concerns is a lot different than a team at full strength being bounced in the first.

[DRoseCantStop]

So....um.....when is Carmelo supposed to be meeting with the Lakers?

[detlef_schrempf]

Ugh....are we truly back to an argument of whether or not New York will do a S&T?

If Carmelo chooses the Bulls...IF that happens...

The Knicks WILL 100 percent participate in a S&T. 100 percent. Phil isn't going to be in the business of revenge and sour grapes if Melo doesn't want to play there; he'll be in the business of assett accumulation.

The Knicks and Bulls will come to a compromise on compensation, and Melo will get his max money. IT SIMPLY COMES DOWN TO CARMELO'S DECISION.

That decision will have to boil down to Melo first agreeing to accept $16m or so. Then S&T options, along with more salary, will begin to take place.

Right, I agree...the point being that Melo would never actually have to take the 16 million, only "agree" to it. He would end up getting his money in a S&T after. My only point is, 99 percent of the time, a S&T goes down.

Personally, I also believe Melo will accept the offer of 16-17 to start, as it will put him around LeBron's first four years in Miami. He could then opt out after 3 and take a super max from the Bulls, no?

[Sonny_D1]

I just think you give yourself a better chance and more options not including Taj in the pitch. Now you've pretty much backed yourself in a corner where you're forced to keep Taj because your main selling point was a "complete" roster. Besides, the selling point should always be a big 3 with a stable of solid role players. The Bulls tried to turn this into a Big 3.75 and it's going to backfire in the end.

Consider the competition. Houston primarily. The can offer a roster of Harden, Parsons, Howard, and Melo. And they can offer more money. How do we compete against that?.

You have to analyze the entire situation and play your best odds. The way I see it, there's no way Melo agrees to play with another volume scorer in Harden. No way. Besides, they play zero defense.

Of course I could be dead wrong. But as a front office, sometimes you have sniff out the bluffs. Going to Houston is a bluff IMO.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

I'm certain it has done before, but could anybody outline the capspace and exception situation if we were to A- Amnesty Boozer, trade Dunleavy for nothing back, versus B- Trade Boozer and Dunleavy for nothing back?

Is it at all possible to Amnesty Boozer, trade Dunleavy, give Melo 18+ in an S&T if we include unguaranteeds, Butler, Snell, Randolph, etc? And if so, what exceptions would then be available to us, if any?

If the Bulls trade/amnesty everyone but Rose/Noah/Taj/Dougie and renounce all exceptions they will have approx 18 million in cap space to sign Melo. They would only have the RMLE (2.7 million) available to use.

If we amnesty Boozer and then trade MDJ, non-guaranteed, Butler, Snell, Randolph etc we are essentially doing the same thing as trading those players away - because we would stil have to fit Melo underneath the 63.2 million dollar cap (plus 100k). In this situation, because we are not sending out enough salary to match Melos incoming we have to use available cap space to make up the difference. This would require us to renounce all exception except the RMLE.

I don't think this is right. My understanding from Larry Coon's FAQ is that we are allowed to take back 150% of outgoing salary plus 100k if outgoing salary is $0 to 9.8M.

By my calculations, if we amnesty Boozer and waive Anthony Randolph (using the stretch provision to spread the cap hit over 3 years) and exercise our team option on the non-guaranteed deals, we are left with 9.5M is cap space remaining:

Derrick Rose $18,862,876
Joakim Noah $12,200,000
Taj Gibson $8,000,000
Mike Dunleavy $3,000,000
Jimmy Butler $2,119,214
Doug McDermott $1,898,300
Tony Snell $1,472,400
Greg Smith $948,163
Non-Guaranteed $1,310,286
Non-Guaranteed $1,448,490
Non-Guaranteed $1,310,286
Roster Cap Hold $507,336
Anthony Randold (Waived) $608,453
--
Total: $53,685,804
Cap Space: $9,514,196


Then trading the non-guaranteeds along with Dunleavy and Snell allows us to pay Anthony 22.4M in the first year of his contract, just 100k shy of the max:
22.4M = 9.5M + (1.31M+1.45M+1.3M+3M+1.47)*1.5 + .1M

You can't use the *1.5 if you are also using cap space to absorb part of the contract. In that case you'd only be able to go 100k over the (cap space + outgoing salary). The '1.5' is only when matching salaries - which we are not able to do.

Per Mark Deeks:

This means that a team with $14.9 million in cap space can receive a $15 million player in trade without sending out any salary, or trade out $7 million in salary and receive $22 million back, and so on. This means it is very possible for the Bulls to amnesty Boozer and use the space to incorporate Anthony's large salary, rather than trying to put Boozer in the deal to accommodate it. Considering the Knicks will not want Boozer, and the Bulls would therefore have to compensate them for taking him, this is possibly the percentage play if they are prepared to eat the money. (The downside to this is it costs the Bulls the non-taxpayer mid-level exception, their best chance at signing Nikola Mirotic. It is, however, a possibility.)

http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/528321

[IndianPlaya17]

I'm really cap stupid. Can someone tell me our cap space with Boozer and without him (amnesty)?

This CBA is really confusing the **** outta me.

[BrooklynBulls]

Houston doesn't play defense. A team in full strength knocked out of the 1st round isn't going to cut it.

We were knocked out in the first round. In the East. We don't play offense. The corollary argument is just as easy to make. B-b-b-but D-Rose wasn't healthy? Yeah, and he hasn't been for like 3 years.

Does that change the fact that we weren't at full strength and will have Rose next year?

Say what you will about the injuries. Obviously, there is SOME reason for concern... but by the accounts we have, he is healthy. He looked to have most, if not all, of his athleticism after the ACL injury and the subsequent meniscus tear is supposed to be considerably less worrisome in terms of recovery.

Having a returning Rose with some concerns is a lot different than a team at full strength being bounced in the first.

Is it? The Rockets were beaten by a far better team than the Wizards. The Rockets do not have significant injury concerns to their superstar. The Rockets put up a much better fight. The Rockets have the bigger name players.

Let us not pretend that the Rockets loss puts them out of contention, or that their doubts are somehow greater concerns. They're not. Our team has grave concerns as well.

[Shill]

I just think you give yourself a better chance and more options not including Taj in the pitch. Now you've pretty much backed yourself in a corner where you're forced to keep Taj because your main selling point was a "complete" roster. Besides, the selling point should always be a big 3 with a stable of solid role players. The Bulls tried to turn this into a Big 3.75 and it's going to backfire in the end.

Consider the competition. Houston primarily. The can offer a roster of Harden, Parsons, Howard, and Melo. And they can offer more money. How do we compete against that? Our angle is that they don't have Thibs, he would be the "big" star here, and we play in the less competitive East. We need more of an edge than that. Having Gibson not only provides a guy he's friendly with, but also provides a guy who saves Melo defensive effort. Parsons is a better player, but Gibson allows Melo to play his natural position, take easier defensive assignments. I think our angle is pretty carefully calculated to be "the team perfectly built for Melo", because I think Houston has the better raw talent to work with. We can't compete with that, no state income tax, and higher starting salary, not without Taj.

If Parsons is better than Taj, he's marginally better. They both have a career PER of 15.0 (although Parsons is younger). The biggest difference is one is an offensive SF and the other a defensive PF.

Houston has more scoring talent, but adding Melo doesn't fix their defensive issues. I just don't see Houston as a good fit.

[greenl]

Which part?

That Melo would be okay with any amount the Bulls can offer, whether it's with cap space of a S&T.

If Melo "chooses" us, he would be aware of the possibility of NY refusing an S&T. He'd either be ok with leaving for whatever capspace the Bulls had, or perhaps just remaining with the Knicks for max money. That's the only logical reason he'd choose us and not another team with more capspace.

This. That's what it all boils down to. If he chooses Chicago- it's because he will take less money to play for a team he thinks can win now. A healthy Rose, Butler, Melo, Taj, Noah- steam rolls the East. However, I'm skeptical he will pick the Bulls- I've thought he'd go back to NY- suffer through one more bad season and then hope Phil can get some better free agents there. All these cap gymnastics people are performing to try and get him the max are an exercise in futility. Melo believes the Bulls will contend with him- right now- for less than a max deal. Or he believes the Knicks will contend in a year with a max deal. Simple as that.

[Jimmy Forums]

So....um.....when is Carmelo supposed to be meeting with the Lakers?

Someone said mid-day, 12-1 LA time I presume, and that it'd be most of the afternoon.

My bet is that, although that person probably didn't know for sure, it'll be something like that. He's gotten started around noon on both days.

[BullHeaded]

I just think you give yourself a better chance and more options not including Taj in the pitch. Now you've pretty much backed yourself in a corner where you're forced to keep Taj because your main selling point was a "complete" roster. Besides, the selling point should always be a big 3 with a stable of solid role players. The Bulls tried to turn this into a Big 3.75 and it's going to backfire in the end.

Consider the competition. Houston primarily. The can offer a roster of Harden, Parsons, Howard, and Melo. And they can offer more money. How do we compete against that? Our angle is that they don't have Thibs, he would be the "big" star here, and we play in the less competitive East. We need more of an edge than that. Having Gibson not only provides a guy he's friendly with, but also provides a guy who saves Melo defensive effort. Parsons is a better player, but Gibson allows Melo to play his natural position, take easier defensive assignments. I think our angle is pretty carefully calculated to be "the team perfectly built for Melo", because I think Houston has the better raw talent to work with. We can't compete with that, no state income tax, and higher starting salary, not without Taj.

I've never been huge on the "easier path in the East" argument. You don't really have to beat the top 7 teams in the playoffs to get to the finals, you only have to beat 3. And whether you're in the East or the West, the conference final matchup will be against a top tier team and if you are a serious contender, you should be able to win the first round match up. In other words, the East-West argument is all about the second round match up in my opinion, and that's about it.

One additional thing to consider in the Bulls favor though that I think a few people touched on is how Melo impacts each team. In Houston, he is an addition to an already established strength... so there may be some diminishing returns. In Chicago, he is an addition to a glaring weakness (along with a hopefully healthy Rose), so chances are he improves the Bulls much more than he would improve the Rockets. And I really do think that Thibs is a big factor.

Ultimately I'm with you though... if he feels he could win with either roster, then money becomes a factor and we may be on the short end of that stick.

[DerrickRose025]

@RealSkipBayless: Happy for Melo that he's getting to play the field for his 1st time, getting red carpet in Chi, Hou, LA. But don't rule out staying w/ Phil

@RealSkipBayless: If Melo does leave NY, I believe it would be for Houston. Can't see him committing to an aging Kobe and maybe Gasol.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[BR0D1E86]

We were knocked out in the first round. In the East. We don't play offense. The corollary argument is just as easy to make. B-b-b-but D-Rose wasn't healthy? Yeah, and he hasn't been for like 3 years.

Does that change the fact that we weren't at full strength and will have Rose next year?

Say what you will about the injuries. Obviously, there is SOME reason for concern... but by the accounts we have, he is healthy. He looked to have most, if not all, of his athleticism after the ACL injury and the subsequent meniscus tear is supposed to be considerably less worrisome in terms of recovery.

Having a returning Rose with some concerns is a lot different than a team at full strength being bounced in the first.

Is it? The Rockets were beaten by a far better team than the Wizards. The Rockets do not have significant injury concerns to their superstar. The Rockets put up a much better fight. The Rockets have the bigger name players.

Let us not pretend that the Rockets loss puts them out of contention, or that their doubts are somehow greater concerns. They're not. Our team has grave concerns as well.

True, but our biggest concern is scoring. Melo solves a lot of our problems. He really doesn't add anything to Houston. I don't think they're a smokescreen or anything, but I don't think that Melo in Houston wins anything. They're still lousy defensively and maybe slightly better offensively. If he goes there he goes there, I won't lose any sleep over it.

[SteelerSpartan]

if Melo was always this obsessed with money....why dafuq even show up in Chicago.....I mean how long has it been since your ass and the Knicks got eliminated from post season play......You and your business people have had ample time to do the numbers.

Do you really need that much of an ego stroke.....or was this "tour" all just to get Phil to give you the max???

if it's always been about getting your money, god man, spare us all with this sh**

[Jimmy Forums]

Broussard on The Herd. I'd be surprised if Melo doesn't come up.

Colin said Stein would be on to discuss Gasol as well.

[BrooklynBulls]

I've never been huge on the "easier path in the East" argument. You don't really have to beat the top 7 teams in the playoffs to get to the finals, you only have to beat 3. And whether you're in the East or the West, the conference final matchup will be against a top tier team and if you are a serious contender, you should be able to win the first round match up. In other words, the East-West argument is all about the second round match up in my opinion, and that's about it.

It's not the biggest factor, but it's a factor. Don't tell me if you're a serious contender you should be able to win in the first round, because the freaking CHAMPIONS got taken to 7 by the 8th seed. Not only is it harder to GET to the finals, you also get the crap beat out of you getting there. You have to exert greater effort to even get homecourt in the playoffs, since winning 50 games isn't even guaranteed to get you a SPOT. All things being equal, a contender should prefer to be in the Eastern Conference, particularly if the Heat split up.

[Jimmy Forums]

Broussard on The Herd. I'd be surprised if Melo doesn't come up.

Colin said Stein would be on to discuss Gasol as well.

Uhh..nevermind I guess.

[bad knees]

Which part?

That Melo would be okay with any amount the Bulls can offer, whether it's with cap space of a S&T.

If Melo "chooses" us, he would be aware of the possibility of NY refusing an S&T. He'd either be ok with leaving for whatever capspace the Bulls had, or perhaps just remaining with the Knicks for max money. That's the only logical reason he'd choose us and not another team with more capspace.

How about we try to put some S&T pressure on Phil by making him the decider of how much Melo will be paid.

1. Melo agrees to an FA contract at $15.8M, which allows the Bulls to keep Rose, Butler, Taj, Noah and McDermott.
2. Go to Phil, and offer a sweet S&T where Boozer goes to another team for two picks, and the Knicks get one pick and a TPE, AND THE BULLS AGREE TO RENOUNCE THE MLE, so long as the S&T contract pays Melo $22M per year.

So the only benefit to the Bulls of the S&T would be that they would "get" to pay Melo more, which actually hurts the Bulls and helps the Knicks by increasing the Bulls' salaries. And Phil looks bad to the FA community if he does not agree since the only reason not to agree would be out of spite.

Melo would be taking the risk that, if Phil were spiteful, then he would have to sign for $15.8M. But maybe he would be more willing to do it because he would be confident that, in the end, Phil would be more mature about it and agree to the S&T that would result in Melo getting more money. Plus, Melo would have to be moved a little bit by the Bulls offering to give up three picks in order to get him paid.