Loyalty

Damkac · Post #1 » by **Damkac** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:20 pm

Don't know if this is worth it's own thread but here are my thoughts.

Peaople expect star players to be loyal to their team and are mad when they leave for a better team. For example when Nash went to LA lots of Suns fans hated him. They called him traitor, scum etc even though that trade turned out to be great for Suns and terrible for Lakers.

However nobody want teams to be loyal to their players. They can be send thousand miles away with nothing to say. Many people want to trade Dragic now to get star player like Love or Carmelo. When somebody say he shouldn't be traded because he show great loyality to Suns they reply "There is no place for loyality in sport. It's bussiness. You do whatever it takes to make team better".

I find a lot of hypocrisy there. Why we expect players to be loyal to team if that team has no loyality to the players? And why player wanting to play for better team is bad but team wanting better players is good?

Sun Scorched · Post #2 » by **Sun Scorched** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:13 pm

Yeah - I wouldn't trade Dragic for LeBron right now. I'm very aware of the disparity in value and how stupid that sounds, but I'm with those that aren't interested in fabricating a title here in PHX.

If Love/LeBron want to come here, fricken awesome. But not at the expense of a guy who has sweat night in and out for our team in an All-Star, 3rd Team NBA season. When I watch Dragic play, I see a metric ton of heart. When I watch LeBron and Love play, I see gifted players going through the motions. It isn't special the same way.

mybloodisorange · Post #3 » by **mybloodisorange** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:24 pm

Dragic should be fine. If there is anyway possible they will reward his hard work by keeping him long term; that being said if an amazing deal comes by you cant blame management and neither could the player.

I feel that McD is wise enough to understand that if we have to sacrifice someone in a move that Bledsoe will be first on the chopping block. Eric only has one season in a Suns uniform, he's injury prone and asking for a max deal - all of this makes him easier to move next to Goran has been working harder longer for less money.

Saberestar · Post #4 » by **Saberestar** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:49 pm

Sun Scorched wrote:Yeah - I wouldn't trade Dragic for LeBron right now. I'm very aware of the disparity in value and how stupid that sounds, but I'm with those that aren't interested in fabricating a title here in PHX.

If Love/LeBron want to come here, fricken awesome. But not at the expense of a guy who has sweat night in and out for our team in an All-Star, 3rd Team NBA season. When I watch Dragic play, I see a metric ton of heart. When I watch LeBron and Love play, I see gifted players going through the motions. It isn't special the same way.

I am with you.

thamadkant · Post #5 » by **thamadkant** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:36 pm

Fans who think with their heart instead of their heads.

It's normal.

Do you guys honestly feel that Dragic, given a contract offer higher than what the Suns are willing to offer to play in a bigger market, would rather stay and be loyal?

If you have been working for the same company for 10 years paying you "not bad" salary, but was given an opportunity to work for a bigger company with higher salary, free car and other benefits, would you turn that down?

In today's age, you have to consider companies look at us as business commodities, basketball players are business commodities as well and they will do what's best for them.

If Dragic's family and friends are all in Phoenix and he rather stay in Phoenix because money is secondary to the people he care for... Then he does that decision for him.... Not for you, and you, and you who probably feel special that their favourite player decided to stay. Dragic don't make decisions for the fans.... He does it for the himself and his family/friends. Unless one day Dragic would become part of Suns FO, he is a business commodity.

I appreciate Dragic and his hard work and I am impartial to Lebron... I root against him, because he is the "big bad" bully in this league. He is the challenge that a lot of people want to overcome and have an accomplishment.

If he was to play on the Sun with a super team... Many other and would hate the suns.
And i can understand that... We all want the underdogs to overcome the big bad bully.

But deep down... Seeing a championship banner hoisted on the rafters...banner number 1.... Who truely doesn't want that?

Gorilla Warfare · Post #6 » by **Gorilla Warfare** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:47 pm

Sun Scorched wrote:Yeah - I wouldn't trade Dragic for LeBron right now. I'm very aware of the disparity in value and how stupid that sounds, but I'm with those that aren't interested in fabricating a title here in PHX.

If Love/LeBron want to come here, fricken awesome. But not at the expense of a guy who has sweat night in and out for our team in an All-Star, 3rd Team NBA season. When I watch Dragic play, I see a metric ton of heart. When I watch LeBron and Love play, I see gifted players going through the motions. It isn't special the same way.

Unfortunately if you hope that you will win an NBA title in this day and age without building a "big 3" team then we will never see a championship banner. It really sucks that it has come to this where teams literally spend 90% of their salary on 3 players just to win a championship.

DirtyDez · Post #7 » by **DirtyDez** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:09 am

Don't care about the names on the back of the jersey, only the front. Win a title before I die by any means necessary.

Post #8 » by **Miklo** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:51 am

Gorilla Warfare wrote:
Sun Scorched wrote:Yeah - I wouldn't trade Dragic for LeBron right now. I'm very aware of the disparity in value and how stupid that sounds, but I'm with those that aren't interested in fabricating a title here in PHX.

If Love/LeBron want to come here, fricken awesome. But not at the expense of a guy who has sweat night in and out for our team in an All-Star, 3rd Team NBA season. When I watch Dragic play, I see a metric ton of heart. When I watch LeBron and Love play, I see gifted players going through the motions. It isn't special the same way.

Unfortunately if you hope that you will win an NBA title in this day and age without building a "big 3" team then we will never see a championship banner. It really sucks that it has come to this where teams literally spend 90% of their salary on 3 players just to win a championship.

Yeah, but it doesn't have to be that way, right? I mean, the Spurs spend closer to 50% on their top 3 players and they've been just as much of a contender as the Heat have of late. In fact, I think the "big 3" model got exposed dramatically this season (and to lesser degrees in previous seasons). If you don't have all 3 running at a high enough level, you're doomed in a 7-game series. I would far, far prefer for us to build a team "organically" through intelligent drafting, development, and logical trades, than break the bank to get some big names. Of course, nothing would stop me from being a Suns fan, and I'd love a title, so if that's the way the FO took us then I'd hope for the best. But I just don't think it *has* to be that way.

Post #9 » by **Miklo** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:01 am

Damkac wrote:Don't know if this is worth it's own thread but here are my thoughts.

Peaople expect star players to be loyal to their team and are mad when they leave for a better team. For example when Nash went to LA lots of Suns fans hated him. They called him traitor, scum etc even though that trade turned out to be great for Suns and terrible for Lakers.

However nobody want teams to be loyal to their players. They can be send thousand miles away with nothing to say. Many people want to trade Dragic now to get star player like Love or Carmelo. When somebody say he shouldn't be traded because he show great loyality to Suns they reply "There is no place for loyality in sport. It's bussiness. You do whatever it takes to make team better".

I find a lot of hypocrisy there. Why we expect players to be loyal to team if that team has no loyality to the players? And why player wanting to play for better team is bad but team wanting better players is good?

To address the actual point in the OP, I think it's a valid point for sure. The big cliche we see thrown all over the media by all parties in professional sports is true: "it's a business". I don't really think it's fair to blame a team for getting rid of a player, or to blame a player for moving on. This isn't isolated to professional sports though, and that's where the "it's a business" comparison can get interesting. There are plenty of non-sports businesses where leaving one company to go to a close competitor is frowned upon, worked into a non-compete agreement, or even illegal. So the NBA is actually sort of lenient compared to some industries - a player is able to be sent or take himself to a team's closest rival, taking his knowledge of the inner workings and team strategies with him. In any event, I agree that a fair perspective should be applied to both teams and players when we look at these types of moves.

Gorilla Warfare · Post #10 » by **Gorilla Warfare** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:01 am

The Spurs have had their big 3 for the last like 8 years, even though Leonard outshined those 3 they still have excellent leadership out of those players. That and the Spurs played this crazy thing called "team basketball" during the playoffs that is very rare in this day and age.

Post #11 » by **Miklo** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:34 am

Gorilla Warfare wrote:The Spurs have had their big 3 for the last like 8 years, even though Leonard outshined those 3 they still have excellent leadership out of those players. That and the Spurs played this crazy thing called "team basketball" during the playoffs that is very rare in this day and age.

Yeah it's a great core, I don't know if I'd call it a "big 3" and put it in the same category as what we have going on in Miami. But that's exactly it, building out a team over the years and developing chemistry to get team ball going...that's the dream. Just a lot more exciting to me than the Miami model. I'm not saying we have to be the Spurs, but I definitely don't think with long-term strategy it's get 3 big names or go home.

Revived · Post #12 » by **Revived** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:05 am

I'm also one of those who think big 3 or nothing. Its just how the NBA works now.

Thunder are a good example.

OKC with Harden/Durant/Westbrook? 2 games away from a title.

OKC with Durant/Westbrook? Never even Finals appearance.

This is why I always thought that even when the Bulls had MVP Rose and Deng performing so well, they needed a 3rd superstar to compliment them. They never got it and cause of that, they never even sniffed getting to the Finals.

You need at least 3 HOF potential players on your team in order to be a contender today imo.

Sun Scorched · Post #13 » by **Sun Scorched** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:35 pm

It sounds to me like some of us are confusing two things:

1. A "Big 3" (Heat, Celtics, Rockets???)
2. Several talented players (Spurs)

Of course you need star-level talent on your roster to be competitive, no one is making the argument that a team of Jared Dudley's and Lou Amundson's could even make the postseason (they do, obviously, have a ton of heart though).

So let's talk "Big 3"

#1. Dragic is now a 3rd team All-NBA caliber player and I don't know if that's registering with most of you. Maybe it's too new? Dragic qualifies as a star - at least the NBA thinks so - one of the six best guards in the NBA this season, with a case for top 5. So there's your first star.

You need two more?

#2. Well, Bledsoe is the next obvious choice and he and Dragic did in fact play well together. Don't like Bledsoe? Ship him out for another star then, I don't care. But there's value there and it's star-level value, or not far from it.

#3. Finally, you have a ton of draft picks and young players on rookie scale deals to package in a trade - oh, of a shitton of cap space to spend on a free agent (especially now that Frye has opted out).

That's the business plan folks - and you can bet your sweet ass that McD has options #1-#10 lined up as we speak. Should be an interesting offseason.

SunsFanSSOL · Post #14 » by **SunsFanSSOL** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:28 pm

*Loyalty

Damkac · Post #15 » by **Damkac** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:34 pm

SunsFanSSOL wrote:*Loyalty

Sorry, english is not my first language :oops:

Another team, besides Spurs that won a championship without "big 3" is Dallas in 2011. It only have Dirk and other players that play their roles perfectly. So there are other ways to winning than "get as many stars as you can". It's important how players fit in the system.
But I guest ideas like Kobe, LeBron and Melo in one team are more attractive than well builded team :lol:

SunsFanSSOL · Post #16 » by **SunsFanSSOL** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:36 pm

Damkac wrote:
SunsFanSSOL wrote:*Loyalty

Sorry, english is not my first language

Well, now I feel like a dick.

JTrain · Post #17 » by **JTrain** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:21 pm

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaP674BgAvc[/youtube]

spurcase · Post #18 » by **spurcase** » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:29 pm

I think some are still missing the point. I don't think the OP was saying a team would be wrong to trade a player if that makes the team better. His point was that if we are going to accept the team doing it we should not criticize a player for leaving if he feels it is in his best interest.

spurcase · Post #19 » by **spurcase** » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:37 pm

Gorilla Warfare wrote:The Spurs have had their big 3 for the last like 8 years, even though Leonard outshined those 3 they still have excellent leadership out of those players. That and the Spurs played this crazy thing called "team basketball" during the playoffs that is very rare in this day and age.

Actually the Spurs big three have been together for 12 years. Tony came in the 01-02 season and Manu in the 02-03 season.

jcsunsfan · Post #20 » by **jcsunsfan** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:57 am

spurcase wrote:
Gorilla Warfare wrote:The Spurs have had their big 3 for the last like 8 years, even though Leonard outshined those 3 they still have excellent leadership out of those players. That and the Spurs played this crazy thing called "team basketball" during the playoffs that is very rare in this day and age.

Actually the Spurs big three have been together for 12 years. Tony came in the 01-02 season and Manu in the 02-03 season.

But are they really a big three? Duncan is a superstar but would Manu be considered a star or superstar if he was playing for Milwaukee or Toronto? I think the parts are getting valued highly but the sum of the parts is the key. Coaching is a big deal too. Put Pop in Miami and they would be champions right now.