Lin feeling disrespected?

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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#621 » by baki » Mon Jul 7, 2014 3:34 am

heatwillbeback wrote:
baki wrote:
heatwillbeback wrote:
I really dont see how these are related.

He signed a huge deal for big money, and now his team views that contract as a hurdle it needs to get over to improve. And some desperate team will bite If Houston needs to trade him.

I dont see how that has to do with players taking less to play (maybe I am missing your point?)

Also, he doesnt suck. I said mediocre. I feel he is at best a middle of the road starting pg making elite pg money, which is the problem.


I think there is a poster here that has already repeated over and over again why Lin's getting paid the amount he's getting and people like this guy still doesn't get it. :noway:

Oh well, you can only hope they can read the thread first next time.


I know why he is getting paid. My point is for obvious reasons the Rockets would rather have a star making that 15 million than Jeremy Lin.

Him getting paid is part of the reason I dont feel bad for him. He knows this is a business. Structuring his contract the way he did to screw over the Knicks shows he knows its a business.

Now Rockets are doing their business trying to put his 15 million to better use, and its a problem?


LOL I think you need to go back and read what happened :lol: :lol:
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal :D
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#622 » by 13th Man » Mon Jul 7, 2014 4:12 am

Glad to see this thread still alive :)

Lin must feel like he's being held hostage by this team.

Rockets on the loudspeaker: "Give us Lebron! Ok Melo then......Alright..Alright...GIVE US A BOSH AND WE'LL SET HIM FREE. This is our final offer otherwise he will go down with us!"
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#623 » by baki » Mon Jul 7, 2014 7:11 am

13th Man wrote:Glad to see this thread still alive :)

Lin must feel like he's being held hostage by this team.

Rockets on the loudspeaker: "Give us Lebron! Ok Melo then......Alright..Alright...GIVE US A BOSH AND WE'LL SET HIM FREE. This is our final offer otherwise he will go down with us!"


LOL tell me about it, since they got lucky on Harden and Howard they were calling everyone from Rondo to Lebron to join the team, it didn't matter who was on the team everyone was expendable except Parsons, the next Larry Bird :lol:
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal :D
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#624 » by SunsRback4Good » Mon Jul 7, 2014 7:25 am

I actually believed in ""Linsanity" hype but it ended too quickly. Teams adjusted and Lin was never or even close to that exciting player he was with the Knicks. Other then driving inside he doesn't have a consistent jumper and also commits a ton of turnovers.
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#625 » by baki » Mon Jul 7, 2014 8:13 am

DragicTime85 wrote:I actually believed in ""Linsanity" hype but it ended too quickly. Teams adjusted and Lin was never or even close to that exciting player he was with the Knicks. Other then driving inside he doesn't have a consistent jumper and also commits a ton of turnovers.


High turnovers are expected when you handle the ball and are a risk taker (which Lin is), but Lin isn't anywhere near top 10 for turnovers, not even the top 30.

His jumpers has improved since the Linsanity days and is in the top 20 for catch and shoot:

Image

Pretty good when a lot of those shots are with the clock counting down and Harden giving up the rare ball. Our specified spot up shooters (Garcia/Casspi/Beverley) have not done as well as Lin.

I think Lin had a good year despite the constant lineup changes, McHale inept and BS at Houston. He's had a couple of 30+ point games and a bunch of 20+ games while coming off the bench.

He's even had a triple double off the bench, an unusually rare feat in the NBA these days.
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal :D
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#626 » by brownsmith89 » Mon Jul 7, 2014 10:54 am

baki wrote:...but Lin isn't anywhere near top 10 for turnovers, not even the top 30.


this is what i don't like about lin's fans. they always make excuses for him by downplaying his weaknesses.

it's like they are car salesmen who are trying to sell you something.

..and i'm a lin fan myself. but in order to improve you have to accept criticism and learn.

in order for jeremy lin to take the next step then he needs a reliable go-to move like tony parker's midrange jumper. he would also benefit from a smoother and quicker passing ability like steve nash's.

he also shouldn't try to bulk up to try to run 100 yards for a touchdown as a running back but should be more of a track athlete who can run 400 or 800 meters.
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#627 » by cw3k » Mon Jul 7, 2014 11:06 am

Parker has a jumper?

Anyway, when you are assigned to camp in the corner and watch, you don't develop any skill. This is not just Lin, it is the whole Rockets squad, including Harden. Of course, if you count ISO Harden and sticky ball a development, McHale has done an amazing job.
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#628 » by brownsmith89 » Mon Jul 7, 2014 11:20 am

cw3k wrote:Parker has a jumper?

Anyway...


http://grantland.com/features/the-shot-doctor/
"Ballard notes that Parker had shot 34.5 percent on his attempts outside the paint during the previous season; in his first year working with Engelland, Parker shot 39.7 percent on those same attempts. His midrange shooting percentage improved from 39.3 percent to 41.6 percent, and by 2008-09, it was all the way up to 45.5 percent."

yes, tony parker is better than jeremy lin in iso situations with the mid-range jumpshot. maybe jeremy lin should hire mr. engelland as a shooting coach instead of a girls' high school basketball coach during the summer.
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#629 » by baki » Mon Jul 7, 2014 11:34 am

brownsmith89 wrote:
baki wrote:...but Lin isn't anywhere near top 10 for turnovers, not even the top 30.


this is what i don't like about lin's fans. they always make excuses for him by downplaying his weaknesses.


It is not the flaw that everyone makes it out to be, that's why this kind of misinformation needs to be corrected, any basketball fan and analyst would have done the same.

Everyone keep going on and on about his turnovers when he's not even in the top 30, why don't people talk about it being a big problem with John Wall the league leader, or Harden a top 5 turnover machine having led the league last year? Lin is a playmaker and a risk taker as a passer, he's not forcing the ball and creating ISO plays for himself (a bad thing). As Hubie Brown once said, Lin commits "productive" turnovers because he's aggressive on creating opportunities for the team - which is a GOOD thing.

It would do you some service (and us!) to actually do some research before forcing not only the Lin fans but also regular fans to constantly make the same corrections over and over again. If you really are a Lin fan then you should have already heard these stuff before.
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal :D
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#630 » by brownsmith89 » Mon Jul 7, 2014 11:51 am

baki wrote:It would do you some service (and us!) to actually do some research before forcing not only the Lin fans but also regular fans to constantly make the same corrections over and over again. If you really are a Lin fan then you should have already heard these stuff before.


it gets really old from lin fans who constantly deflect criticism. it's like you're trying to "defend" him from any negative word, when the best response for lin is to prove the doubters and haters wrong by elevating his skills.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2013/04/19/synergy-sports-postseason-first-round-analysis/2097315/lin
"Lin is near the bottom of the NBA, 22nd percentile, when defending isolations (.933 PPP). "

john wall in 2014 allowed 0.66 ppp on his on-the-ball defense.

the truth is that jeremy lin has weaknesses. it doesn't matter if the grass is greener on the other side. it doesn't matter if there's smelly trash in the backyard for you to compare to.

stop trying to cover up lin's faults and look for ways for him to rise to the challenge.
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#631 » by brownsmith89 » Mon Jul 7, 2014 12:09 pm

i think jeremy lin blows his load on a vertical leap test and 40-yard dash test while his trainers and fans all congratulate him. it's better to be able to finish strong in a 400-meter race on the track. my recommendation is to work on what tennis players do to be conditioned and able to react while sliding from side to side.

jeremy lin is too slow with lateral movement because of excess upper body weight. he's playing the size game, when he should be playing the finesse game with accuracy and quickness like tony parker and steve nash.
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#632 » by baki » Mon Jul 7, 2014 12:13 pm

brownsmith89 wrote:
baki wrote:It would do you some service (and us!) to actually do some research before forcing not only the Lin fans but also regular fans to constantly make the same corrections over and over again. If you really are a Lin fan then you should have already heard these stuff before.


it gets really old from lin fans who constantly deflect criticism. it's like you're trying to "defend" him from any negative word, when the best response for lin is to prove the doubters and haters wrong by elevating his skills.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2013/04/19/synergy-sports-postseason-first-round-analysis/2097315/lin
"Lin is near the bottom of the NBA, 22nd percentile, when defending isolations (.933 PPP). "

john wall in 2014 allowed 0.66 ppp against other point guards.

the truth is that jeremy lin has weaknesses. it doesn't matter if the grass is greener on the other side. it doesn't matter if there's smelly trash in the backyard for you to compare to.

stop trying to cover up lin's faults and look for ways for him to rise to the challenge.


Now you're being lazy, you dig up something from 2 seasons ago and you don't bother to read on Lin's progression in the NBA. As a result, you're going to continuously rely on misinformation over and over again.

So I'm going to leave this total gem of an article from the internet (don't know who the author is but he/she certainly deserves full credit for writing this), please read bold for emphasis,

Jeremy Lin's many detractors seem so invested in convincing others that his play was just a "flash in the pan." He may not reach that level of statistical output again (almost none do), but he still has all-star type "potential," and should certainly be a starter in this league.

NBA media and fans love to minimize his Linsanity run as "just 7 games," but Lin still averaged 18 and 8 for the 25 games he started, so it wasn't like he just disappeared once Miami "figured him out."

Most are comfortable with the notion that his true worth is as a "backup/serviceable PG," because that's how he's portrayed in Houston and in the media. Those who actually followed Lin's career though realize his diminished numbers/perceived ability is due mostly to his misuse by McHale/Rockets.

He was promised to be a focal part and primary facilitator of a P&R heavy Rockets offense. Instead, Lin's spent the last 2yrs playing off-ball and out of position, on a team that utilized the P&R one of the least in the league. Add this to the fact that he only gets 9 FGA's a game, with had one of the lowest usage rates of any PG in the league.

McHale also regularly limited Lin's minutes (regardless of how well we was playing), and staggered them into 2-4 mins stretches, effectively killing any rhythm he developed. People rarely take these circumstances into account when assessing Lin's current output - no traditional PG would do well with these limitations.Regardless of how he's depicted, he's actually played very well given the circumstances.

His run with the Knicks wasn't an aberration. Lin's had huge games since then, when the Rockets actually allowed him the opportunity to manage the ball and put up shots - and most important, the TEAM usually won.Lin averaged 18 & 7 (per 36) during the 2nd half of 2012-2013 with Rockets, after struggling the 1st half due to returning from torn meniscus surgery.

Lin averages 22 & 7 when Harden doesn't play (i.e. when his usage rate, FGA's, touches, and responsibility increases).Lin had another 38 & 7 game vs. Spurs without Harden, after which McHale publicly chastised Lin for not using a screen, essentially blaming him for the OT loss.

Lin had 31 vs. Raptors and 34 & 12 vs. Sixers during his hot run to start this past season, before McHale started limiting/staggering his mins again.

Lin had 29 & 7 vs. OKC. The ONLY game the current Rockets have won against them with Westbrook in the lineup, was the one time they allowed Lin to control the ball - not a coincidence.

Lin had a triple-double off the bench this season - one of just a few players in history that did this in under 30 minutes.

Most media and fans just look at per game statistics, without recognizing the various factors that affect this - mainly opportunity/involvement.

Despite being massively underused, Lin has actually improved, posting career highs in FG%, 3FG%, FT%, TS%, while decreasing his TO's every year.

A few facts:Despite his outside shooting being one of his perceived weaknesses, Lin shot the same 36% from 3pt as "elite shooter" James Harden.

Lin was Top 20 in spot up shooting, despite that formerly being a weakness (as it is for most traditional ball-handling PG's).

Despite being perceived as a poor defender, advanced stats (e.g. DefRtg, Defensive PPP, Opponent FG%) all show Lin being on par or better than the "All NBA 2nd team" Beverley who was said to replace Lin as starter due to his "better" defense.

Lin remains an elite penetrator in this league, being top 15 in drives per game despite only playing 29 minutes a game.

He also had the 6th highest TS% of all PG's off of drives.

Lin is still measured as one of the top ball-handlers in the P&R, despite McHale/Rockets inexplicably underusing it with Howard/Harden also being elite in this area.

Lin was the most efficient and clutch scorer on the Rockets this season from 2FG and 3FG.

He also lead the team in 2FG clutch scoring last season.

Ok, sorry for the long post. Not saying that Lin is destined to be all allstar or superstar or anything like that. Just saying he's been woefully mis/underused in Houston, and that there's enough objective evidence to suggest the guy's still got much more talent/potential then most are willing to acknowledge.

There's just too much misinformation out there about Lin from people who appear quite committed to convincing others he's a scrub/role player at best.TL; DR - Despite public perception and surface stats, there's enough evidence to suggest Jeremy Lin still has all-star type potential. Linsanity was not a "fluke."
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal :D
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#633 » by 42uptop » Mon Jul 7, 2014 12:23 pm

The inevitable Lin trade to Philadelphia cannot come soon enough 8-)
I speak the truth.
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#634 » by brownsmith89 » Mon Jul 7, 2014 12:37 pm

baki wrote:So I'm going to leave this total gem of an article from the internet (don't know who the author is but he/she certainly deserves full credit for writing this), please read bold for emphasis


that's fine if you want to ignore jeremy lin's weaknesses. you just want to point out the positives.

if you think jeremy lin has already reached elite level skills, then that's your own eye test and opinion.

if you want to call me lazy, that's fine too. in the 2012-13 season, this is a list for point guard defenses in the iso.

POINT GUARD
0.66 Mike Conley
0.67 Avery Bradley
0.70 Russell Westbrook
0.72 Brandon Knight
0.75 Darren Collison
0.77 Tony Parker
0.81 Jrue Holiday
0.84 Ty Lawson
0.85 Norris Cole
0.85 Jeff Teague
0.85 Jerryd Bayless
0.85 Goran Dragic
0.89 Brandon Jennings
0.91 Kemba Walker
0.92 Stephen Curry
0.92 Deron Williams
0.92 Kirk Hinrich
0.93 Grevis Vasquez
0.93 Nate Robinson
0.94 Mario Chalmers
0.94 Raymond Felton
0.96 Jeremy Lin
1.01 Damian Lillard
1.03 Pablo Prigioni
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#635 » by brownsmith89 » Mon Jul 7, 2014 12:42 pm

jeremy lin ranks at the bottom area for turnover ratio.

again, you can just ignore whatever you like because he's your favorite player, your prince charming that's riding on a horse.

i look at facts, and i'm a realistic jeremy lin fan that wants to see him improve.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/turnoverRatio/page/2
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#636 » by hans0r » Mon Jul 7, 2014 1:19 pm

brownsmith89 wrote:
baki wrote:So I'm going to leave this total gem of an article from the internet (don't know who the author is but he/she certainly deserves full credit for writing this), please read bold for emphasis


that's fine if you want to ignore jeremy lin's weaknesses. you just want to point out the positives.

if you think jeremy lin has already reached elite level skills, then that's your own eye test and opinion.


And you are ignoring his strengths. Even Morey said that Lin's turnovers aren't an issue. It's a side effect of the Rocket's playstyle. Overall he is a decent player and still has potential.

Many of Jeremy’s turnovers are charges. These are the best turnovers to have as not only do charges mean that you are being aggressive as a player (when good things often happen) but also turnover charges are not “live ball” turnovers where teams get a higher expected value possession the other way. For example, in our opening Detroit game, Jeremy had no “bad pass” turnovers. They were all charges or off the dribble. Compare his lack of any bad pass turnovers to his 12 “high quality” passes in the game (passes he made that set up high percentage offense for others)

This leads into my next point that Jeremy’s passes were the best in the league last year in the percentage that led to high quality offense. This is a fancy way of saying that when he makes a risky pass it is usually for a high reward so his bad pass turnovers, when he has them, are not as bad as for other guards as his avg possession efficiency remains higher

Finally, most young guards who are going to be very good start as high turnover players in college and in their early seasons in the pros and get better throughout their career
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#637 » by brownsmith89 » Mon Jul 7, 2014 1:32 pm

hans0r wrote:And you are ignoring his strengths. Even Morey said that Lin's turnovers aren't an issue. It's a side effect of the Rocket's playstyle. Overall he is a decent player and still has potential.


am i ignoring jeremy's strengths? i thought i said i was a fan.

he's a hard worker, has a good head on his shoulders, he went to harvard, and has good morals. he won't be going bankrupt or fooling around at strip clubs like other players. he's a christian like i am.

i want to see him address his weaknesses. i think he's being trained the wrong way with a trainer that focuses on powerlifting and football players. this is more of an anaerobic activity, and it shows in jeremy lin's playstyle. he goes strong straight to the hole and lots of times doesn't get a foul called on him.

i believe that as a point guard he shouldn't be viewing "size" as an advantage when that's not a part of his game. he doesn't box out, post up, or set picks like centers and power forwards do. he needs to learn from the quickness and agility of tony parker.

again 400 meter race on the track while in control and consistent is better than a 40 yard dash that football players do. tennis players and soccer players over wrestlers and football players.
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#638 » by baki » Mon Jul 7, 2014 2:04 pm

hans0r wrote:
brownsmith89 wrote:
baki wrote:So I'm going to leave this total gem of an article from the internet (don't know who the author is but he/she certainly deserves full credit for writing this), please read bold for emphasis


that's fine if you want to ignore jeremy lin's weaknesses. you just want to point out the positives.

if you think jeremy lin has already reached elite level skills, then that's your own eye test and opinion.


And you are ignoring his strengths. Even Morey said that Lin's turnovers aren't an issue. It's a side effect of the Rocket's playstyle. Overall he is a decent player and still has potential.

Many of Jeremy’s turnovers are charges. These are the best turnovers to have as not only do charges mean that you are being aggressive as a player (when good things often happen) but also turnover charges are not “live ball” turnovers where teams get a higher expected value possession the other way. For example, in our opening Detroit game, Jeremy had no “bad pass” turnovers. They were all charges or off the dribble. Compare his lack of any bad pass turnovers to his 12 “high quality” passes in the game (passes he made that set up high percentage offense for others)

This leads into my next point that Jeremy’s passes were the best in the league last year in the percentage that led to high quality offense. This is a fancy way of saying that when he makes a risky pass it is usually for a high reward so his bad pass turnovers, when he has them, are not as bad as for other guards as his avg possession efficiency remains higher

Finally, most young guards who are going to be very good start as high turnover players in college and in their early seasons in the pros and get better throughout their career


My advice is to don't bother with this troll, you can feed him all the information and he won't get it at all. It'll just be free information for someone who's too lazy to do any research.
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal :D
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#639 » by baki » Mon Jul 7, 2014 2:06 pm

42uptop wrote:The inevitable Lin trade to Philadelphia cannot come soon enough 8-)


It would be really interesting, I'm pretty sure Lin's numbers will go up, just not sure about the rest of the team :lol: Lin needs a PnR player to win ball games.
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal :D
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Re: Lin feeling disrespected? 

Post#640 » by hans0r » Mon Jul 7, 2014 2:12 pm

brownsmith89 wrote:
hans0r wrote:And you are ignoring his strengths. Even Morey said that Lin's turnovers aren't an issue. It's a side effect of the Rocket's playstyle. Overall he is a decent player and still has potential.


am i ignoring jeremy's strengths? i thought i said i was a fan.

he's a hard worker, has a good head on his shoulders, he went to harvard, and has good morals. he won't be going bankrupt or fooling around at strip clubs like other players. he's a christian like i am.

i want to see him address his weaknesses. i think he's being trained the wrong way with a trainer that focuses on powerlifting and football players. this is more of an anaerobic activity, and it shows in jeremy lin's playstyle. he goes strong straight to the hole and lots of times doesn't get a foul called on him.

i believe that as a point guard he shouldn't be viewing "size" as an advantage when that's not a part of his game. he doesn't box out, post up, or set picks like centers and power forwards do. he needs to learn from the quickness and agility of tony parker.

again 400 meter race on the track while in control and consistent is better than a 40 yard dash that football players do. tennis players and soccer players over wrestlers and football players.



It's not that Lin fans are playing down his weaknesses, it's just that your expectations are way too high. Last postseason he worked mostly on improving his shooting and his left hand, which were his most talked about weaknesses, and he definetely improved in that regard. I think it's unrealistic to expect him to improve more in just one postseason. Especially his lateral quickness. That's not something you can gain in just a few months.
Then you said he should get a reliable midrange-jumper, but midrange isn't even in the Rocket's gameplan. They are all about 3 point shots and low post-plays. McHale benched him a couple of times for taking midrange shots even when they went in (I just assume that's why he was taken out. With McHale you never know...).
I guess working out his upper body is supposed to help him drive to the basket and prevent injury. He used to fall down hard after every drive to the basket. He still does, but not as often as he used to.

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