RealGM Top 100 List #4

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#501 » by 90sAllDecade » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:13 am

This is the second post in a series to show as many as possible for comparison, Next Shaq:

Shaq's Character Issues

Shaq


The Magic finished 41–41, winning 20 more games than the previous season; however, the team ultimately missed the playoffs by virtue of a tie-breaker with the Indiana Pacers. On more than one occasion during the year, Sports Illustrated writer Jack McCallum overheard O'Neal saying, "We've got to get [head coach] Matty [Guokas] out of here and bring in [assistant] Brian [Hill]."[15]



O'Neal became a free agent after the 95–96 NBA season. In the summer of 1996, O'Neal was named to the United States Olympic basketball team, and was later part of the gold medal-winning team at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. While the Olympic basketball team was training in Orlando, the Orlando Sentinel published a poll that asked whether the Magic should fire Hill if that were one of O'Neal's conditions for returning.[18][19] 82% answered "no".[18] O'Neal had a power struggle while playing under Hill.[20][21] He said the team "just didn't respect [Hill]."[22] Another question in the poll asked, "Is Shaq worth $115 million?" in reference to the amount of the Magic's offer. 91.3% of the response was "no".[19][20] O'Neal's Olympic teammates rode him hard over the poll.[19][21] He was also upset that the Orlando media implied O'Neal was not a good role model for having a child with his longtime girlfriend with no immediate plans to marry.[18] O'Neal compared his lack of privacy in Orlando to "feeling like a big fish in a dried-up pond."[23] O'Neal also learned that Hardaway considered himself the leader of the Magic and did not want O'Neal making more money than him.[24] On the team's first full day at the Olympics in Atlanta, it was announced that O'Neal would join the Los Angeles Lakers on a seven-year, $121 million contract.[25][26] He insisted he did not choose Los Angeles for the money. "I'm tired of hearing about money, money, money, money, money," O'Neal said after the signing. "I just want to play the game, drink Pepsi, wear Reebok," he added, referring to a couple of his product endorsements.[27][28] The Lakers won 56 games during the 1996–97 season. O'Neal averaged 26.2 points and 12.5 rebounds in his first season with Los Angeles; however, he again missed over 30 games due to injury. The Lakers made the playoffs, but were eliminated in the second round by the Utah Jazz in five games.[29] On December 17, 1996, O'Neal shoved Dennis Rodman of the Chicago Bulls; Rodman's teammates Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan restrained Rodman and prevented further conflict. The Los Angeles Daily News reported that O'Neal was willing to be suspended for fighting Rodman, and O'Neal said: "It's one thing to talk tough and one thing to be tough."[30]

In January 2002 he was involved in a spectacular on-court brawl in a game against the Chicago Bulls. He punched center Brad Miller after an intentional foul to prevent a basket, resulting in a melee with Miller, forward Charles Oakley, and several other players.[37] O'Neal was suspended for three games without pay and fined $15,000

At the beginning of the 2003–04 season, O'Neal wanted a contract extension with a pay raise on his remaining three years for $30 million. The Lakers had hoped O'Neal would take less money due to his age, physical conditioning, and games missed due to injuries. During a preseason game, O'Neal had yelled at Lakers owner Jerry Buss, "Pay me."[44] There had been increasing tension between O'Neal and Bryant, the feud climaxing on the eve of training camp prior to the 2003-2004 season when Kobe, in an interview with ESPN journalist Jim Gray, criticized Shaq for being out of shape, a poor leader, and putting his salary demands over the best interest of the Lakers.[45]

The Lakers made the playoffs in 2004, and lost to the Detroit Pistons in the 2004 NBA Finals. Lakers assistant coach Tex Winter said, "Shaq defeated himself against Detroit. He played way too passively. He had one big game ... He's always interested in being a scorer, but he hasn't had nearly enough concentration on defense and rebounding."[46] After the series, O'Neal was angered by comments made by Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak regarding O'Neal's future with the club, as well as by the departure of Lakers coach Phil Jackson at the request of Buss. O'Neal made comments indicating that he felt the team's decisions were centered on a desire to appease Bryant to the exclusion of all other concerns, and O'Neal promptly demanded a trade. Kupchak wanted the Dallas Mavericks's Dirk Nowitzki in return but Cuban refused to let his 7-footer go. However, Miami showed interest and eventually the two clubs agreed.[47] Winter said, "[O'Neal] left because he couldn't get what he wanted—a huge pay raise. There was no way ownership could give him what he wanted. Shaq's demands held the franchise hostage, and the way he went about it didn't please the owner too much."[48]

Surgery and Wade's injury
In the 2006–07 season, O'Neal missed 35 games after an injury to his left knee in November required surgery.[51][52] After one of those missed games, a Christmas Day match-up against the Lakers, he ripped Jackson, who O'Neal had once called a second father, referring to his former coach as Benedict Arnold. Jackson had previously said, "The only person I've ever [coached] that hasn't been a worker ... is probably Shaq."[53]

O'Neal again missed games due to injuries, and the Heat had a 15–game losing streak.[55] According to O'Neal, Riley thought he was faking the injury.[56] During a practice in February 2008, O'Neal got into an altercation with Riley over the coach ordering a tardy Jason Williams to leave practice. The two argued face-to-face, with O'Neal poking Riley in the chest and Riley slapping his finger away. Riley soon after decided to trade O'Neal.[57] O'Neal said his relationship with Wade was not "all that good" by the time he left Miami, but he did not express disappointment at Wade for failing to stand up for him.[58]

O'Neal preferred his new situation with the Suns over the Heat. "I love playing for this coach and I love playing with these guys," O'Neal said. "We have professionals who know what to do. No one is asking me to play with [his former Heat teammates] Chris Quinn or Ricky Davis. I'm actually on a team again." Riley felt O'Neal was wrong for maligning his former teammates. O'Neal responded with an expletive toward Riley, who he often referred to as the "great Pat Riley" while playing for the Heat.[63]

He also received media flak for mocking Chinese people when interviewed about newcomer center Yao Ming. O'Neal told a reporter, "you tell Yao Ming, ching chong yang, wah, ah so."[129] O'Neal later said it was locker-room humor and he meant no offense. Yao believed that O'Neal was joking, but he said a lot of Asians wouldn't see the humor.[130] Yao joked, "Chinese is hard to learn. I had trouble with it when I was little."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaquille_O'Neal

Shaq fined $25K for not leaving court, arguing after ejection
Updated: November 18, 2008, 12:21 AM ET
ESPN.com news services
00COMMENTS0EMAILPRINT
Shaquille O'Neal lost the argument, and now he'll lose some cash as well.

The NBA fined the Suns center $25,000 on Monday for verbal abuse of an official and failure to leave the court in a timely manner after he was ejected in a 104-86 win over the Pistons in Phoenix on Sunday
.

"Doesn't matter to me," O'Neal said after the Suns' 109-97 loss in Utah. "I'm not the one that can be controlled with fines, so that doesn't matter to me."

The incident occurred with 5:19 left in the second period when Pistons guard Rodney Stuckey went in for a layup and O'Neal sent him crashing to the court chest-first. He received a Flagrant 2 foul and an automatic ejection.

O'Neal remained on the court arguing the call.

"The laws of physics say that a body in motion stays in motion. So if you have two objects meet in the air, the smaller object is going to fall much harder," O'Neal said after the game. "I've never been the type of player to take anybody out, so I obviously went to the ball. The little guy ran into a brick wall."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3709298

Shaq fined $35,000 for ripping refs on Christmas
Kurt Helin Dec 27, 2010, 2:49 PM EDT
3 Comments

As expected after he let it fly to the media after the Orlando game, Shaquille O’Neal has been fined $35,000 for criticizing the officials, the league has announced.

Shaq played just 12 minutes in the Christmas Day game and was in constant foul trouble. Which happens to guys trying to guard Dwight Howard, but Shaq thought both sides were pushing and only he was getting called on it.

So he called it like he saw it after the game.

“I guess they (fans) come out to see No. 26 play (referee Bob Delaney wears 26). He was a great player out there today,” O’Neal said. “They paid all that money to see No. 26 come play. My thing is, if you’re going to call it, call it the same way every time. Don’t pick and choose who you are going to call it against.”



Shaq admits he was selfish ‘championship chaser’ when he left Magic for Lakers
February 26, 2012 By Larry Brown 2 Comments
Shaq has ripped Dwight Howard for talking about leaving the Magic, saying it would be a “travesty” for the big man to leave Orlando. What Shaq forgets is that in 1996 he did the same thing, leaving the Magic to sign with the Lakers as a free agent. 16 years later, he admits he was selfish to leave Orlando to chase championships in LA.
“I admit, I was a championship chaser,” Shaq said during a sit-down with former Magic teammates Penny Hardaway and Dennis Scott that aired on TNT Friday. “One, I was a championship chaser. Two, I was an opportunity chaser. I was a little bit selfish but I had to be because I wanted to be one of the most dominant players ever.
“I never told anybody this, but when I left, and I used to watch [Orlando] play, I would say to myself ‘Did I make a mistake [by leaving]?’ Man, because I really missed you guys. We didn’t have the same camaraderie [in LA] that we did [in Orlando].”
Shaq was only in Orlando four seasons but they reached the NBA Finals once. They had a strong core and could have probably won at least a title had he stayed, but like he said, he left for LA to win even more. Shaq isn’t exactly the most humble guy, so it’s surprising to hear him admit that. Maybe it was the setting — being surrounded by Penny and D-3 that made him say it, but we appreciate him being honest. And maybe he should go easier on Dwight recognizing he’s in the same position Shaq once was.

http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/ ... ers/119174

Shaquille O'Neal took the mic at a NYC club last night, unleashing a freestyle verbal assault directed at his arch-enemy Kobe Bryant -- blaming his former teammate for ruining his marriage and imploring him to "Tell me how my ass tastes."

After spending several verses shredding Kobe apart for losing in the NBA playoffs, Shaq drops the line, "I'm a horse, Kobe ratted me out, that's why I'm getting divorced."

Launch photosThe line most likely references a comment Kobe made during his infamous 2003 rape case, when he told Colorado police that he "Should have done what Shaq does ... Shaq would pay his women not to say anything." The two became famously bitter rivals after the incident.

Calls to Kobe's reps were not returned.
http://www.tmz.com/2008/06/23/shaq-atta ... -marriage/


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oUJV8ApL58[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ_Dx2KWmnM[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XHlKAdj-Yo[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S05-vxPs7Ds[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qix2Ioa41UU[/youtube]
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#502 » by MacGill » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:16 am

90sAllDecade wrote:Wanted to post this for the Shaq Hakeem comparison to add to the RS per100 info.

Playoffs Per100

All stats are per100Poss
Shaq .565TS% 34.7PTS 16.6REB 3.8AST 0.8STL 3.0BLK 4.3TOV 5.1PF
Hakeem .569TS% 33.7PTS 14.6REB 4.1AST 2.2STL 4.2BLK 3.8TOV 5.0PF


I really have no problem with Hakeem here other than I prefer Shaq to anchor the offense. Hakeem is a fantastic 2 way player, who I also had above Wilt.

I would note though the volume Hakeem needed in the 95 finals against Orlando. Basically 30FGA's/game for his average. Offensively, Shaq just does more with less but Hakeem has other factors defensively that are greater than O'Neal.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#503 » by E-Balla » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:17 am

If we are doing the runoff with just Shaq and Wilt I'll take Shaq. More dominating in the postseason, and he had personal issues but it never got in his way once he hit the court. Like TO vs Randy Moss (both were douches but TO would never give less than 100% while Moss regularly tanked games to prove points - like how he got out of Oakland).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#504 » by PaulieWal » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:20 am

GC Pantalones wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:No, Ariza or Battier would not have resulted in a championship for Miami in 2011. They would've never got TO the Finals without LeBron James.


Thanks for pointing this out, Hibachi. I was gonna bring this up in my reply to GC but forgot. With Battier or Ariza Miami may not even be able to beat Boston and/or Chicago. I wish I could And1 this twice.

You don't think they'd be the favorites? I remember thinking Miami was going to make the Finals before Lebron announced he was signing there just because they got Bosh and Wade. Remember in that first year all 3 of those guys stomped on each other's production (and all three performed well under the level they played at in 09/10) and they had horrible synergy winning basically on talent. I think without Lebron (or Wade for that matter) the transition in that first year would've been smoother.


Man, you are really reaching here now. 2011 was also their toughest playoff competition in the East (though 2012 can be argued because of injuries to Bosh and Wade) with a good but older Boston team coming off a game 7 in the Finals and a 60+ win Chicago team which was quite formidable. Both these series were only 5 games but they a lot of them were close down the stretch and LeBron was quite "clutch" closing out multiple games for Miami. Without LeBron and putting an Ariza or a Battier they would definitely lose to either Boston or Chicago. LeBron was pretty good in the Boston series and good in the Chicago series.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#505 » by MacGill » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:23 am

GC Pantalones wrote:If we are doing the runoff with just Shaq and Wilt I'll take Shaq. More dominating in the postseason, and he had personal issues but it never got in his way once he hit the court. Like TO vs Randy Moss (both were douches but TO would never give less than 100% while Moss regularly tanked games to prove points - like how he got out of Oakland).


This is the main point for me. Shaq had that killer I don't give a ^%$# attitude. While we already know his negatives...to me, it's the way that they seem to carry more weight than Wilt's who had the same issues. It's documented that he was mentally more frail then Shaq and Shaq upped his games in the playoffs. Being able to still play at the level he did while all his adversity happened....again, I don't see how in the world Wilt can go ahead of him here.

No problem, if it isn't Shaq either...just that, some of the Wilt supporters don't even have Shaq on their radar....very very odd.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#506 » by colts18 » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:29 am

ThaRegul8r wrote:Can one of the Shaq people provide data on Shaq-led offenses if they happen to have it?


Here is RAPM for 9 years of Shaq's prime:
1998: 1st overall (3rd in offense)
1999: 2nd overall (2nd in offense)
2000: 1st overall (1st in offense)
2001: 2nd (1st in offense)
2002: 1st (1st in offense, 4th in defense, ahead of Duncan and D-Rob)
2003: 3rd (1st in offense)
2004: 1st (1st in offense, 26th in defense)
2005: 3rd (5th in offense)
2006: 5th (5th in offense)

This doesn't even include Shaq's 94-96 Orlando seasons where his team finished 3rd, 1st, 3rd in offense. In 1995, his team finished with a 115.1 Offensive rating. That is good for 6th best in NBA history

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... by=off_rtg
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4-- Wilt v. Shaq 

Post#507 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:32 am

In the run-off I cast my vote for Shaq. My main reason is that for a multi-year stretch he was one of the most dominant forces we've ever seen and it translated both to individual performance and stats as well as a great deal of team success.

Shaq coasted at times in the RS but since he brought it every PS and was one of the all-time best playoff guys Im taking him over Wilt.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#508 » by 90sAllDecade » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:33 am

MacGill wrote:
90sAllDecade wrote:Wanted to post this for the Shaq Hakeem comparison to add to the RS per100 info.

Playoffs Per100

All stats are per100Poss
Shaq .565TS% 34.7PTS 16.6REB 3.8AST 0.8STL 3.0BLK 4.3TOV 5.1PF
Hakeem .569TS% 33.7PTS 14.6REB 4.1AST 2.2STL 4.2BLK 3.8TOV 5.0PF


I really have no problem with Hakeem here other than I prefer Shaq to anchor the offense. Hakeem is a fantastic 2 way player, who I also had above Wilt.

I would note though the volume Hakeem needed in the 95 finals against Orlando. Basically 30FGA's/game for his average. Offensively, Shaq just does more with less but Hakeem has other factors defensively that are greater than O'Neal.


I have Hakeem and Shaq over Wilt as well. I can also agree with that perspective on both players.

That is a balanced view and Shaq does need less shots and better offensively in the RS with Hakeem having the better combined two way impact including a better defensive anchor in the RS imo.

But if you include FT shooting as a skill or weakness in your offensive anchor. Hakeem has an advantage over both Shaq and Wilt in the final minutes as an offensive anchor as well as comparable playoff TS%, so his combined overall two way impact is better imo. Although Shaq does use less FGA in the playoffs over Hakeem I agree.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#509 » by MacGill » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:34 am

colts18 wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:Can one of the Shaq people provide data on Shaq-led offenses if they happen to have it?


Here is RAPM for 9 years of Shaq's prime:
1998: 1st overall (3rd in offense)
1999: 2nd overall (2nd in offense)
2000: 1st overall (1st in offense)
2001: 2nd (1st in offense)
2002: 1st (1st in offense, 4th in defense, ahead of Duncan and D-Rob)
2003: 3rd (1st in offense)
2004: 1st (1st in offense, 26th in defense)
2005: 3rd (5th in offense)
2006: 5th (5th in offense)

This doesn't even include Shaq's 94-96 Orlando seasons where his team finished 3rd, 1st, 3rd in offense. In 1995, his team finished with a 115.1 Offensive rating. That is good for 6th best in NBA history

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... by=off_rtg


Of course, some will say will look...he played with Penny/Kobe/Wade etc...but to me not only does that speak to his portability as a player but many underestimate exactly what type of attention he demanded.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#510 » by magicmerl » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:35 am

MacGill wrote:Thank you for linking that. Is this full career #'s per 100 possessions though?

I ask because to me early Wilt had the advantage of ridiculously high FGA's as well as pace and inefficient finishing on his side. Also, not 100% sure of when the paint was widened and 3 second rule implemented. Later Wilt had less responsibility as the offensive anchor and more energy, focus for defense and rebounding. Again, he did what he did but the same can't be said for the other bigs so I have to use that context.

Yes, that's full career per100poss.

Forgive me, but I'm unclear why high FGA and pace affect 'per100' stats at all. And while the inefficient finishing means that there's more rebounds to go around, isn't that just something that would inflate everybodies rebounds at the time, in the same way that modern perimeter players get an efficiency bump by shooting 3s?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#511 » by E-Balla » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:40 am

PaulieWal wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
Thanks for pointing this out, Hibachi. I was gonna bring this up in my reply to GC but forgot. With Battier or Ariza Miami may not even be able to beat Boston and/or Chicago. I wish I could And1 this twice.

You don't think they'd be the favorites? I remember thinking Miami was going to make the Finals before Lebron announced he was signing there just because they got Bosh and Wade. Remember in that first year all 3 of those guys stomped on each other's production (and all three performed well under the level they played at in 09/10) and they had horrible synergy winning basically on talent. I think without Lebron (or Wade for that matter) the transition in that first year would've been smoother.


Man, you are really reaching here now. 2011 was also their toughest playoff competition in the East (though 2012 can be argued because of injuries to Bosh and Wade) with a good but older Boston team coming off a game 7 in the Finals and a 60+ win Chicago team which was quite formidable. Both these series were only 5 games but they a lot of them were close down the stretch and LeBron was quite "clutch" closing out multiple games for Miami. Without LeBron and putting an Ariza or a Battier they would definitely lose to either Boston or Chicago. LeBron was pretty good in the Boston series and good in the Chicago series.

They definitely beat Boston. Chicago is a close one. It could go either way especially if Wade still plays bad. Any how I wasn't talking about Lebron's playoff performance as a whole but his Finals performance.

And it being their toughest opponents doesn't say much because without injuries Miami would've coasted through the playoffs all 4 years.

Remember Wade took a crap team to nearly 50 wins in 2010 and Bosh took an equally crappy team to the 9th seed (they would've made the playoffs if he didn't sit at the end of the season to not risk injury). Those two together with Chalmers and a decent SF would be a mid to high 50 win team. Certainly still good enough to contend against Chicago.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#512 » by MacGill » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:41 am

magicmerl wrote:
MacGill wrote:Thank you for linking that. Is this full career #'s per 100 possessions though?

I ask because to me early Wilt had the advantage of ridiculously high FGA's as well as pace and inefficient finishing on his side. Also, not 100% sure of when the paint was widened and 3 second rule implemented. Later Wilt had less responsibility as the offensive anchor and more energy, focus for defense and rebounding. Again, he did what he did but the same can't be said for the other bigs so I have to use that context.

Yes, that's full career per100poss.

Forgive me, but I'm unclear why high FGA and pace affect 'per100' stats at all. And while the inefficient finishing means that there's more rebounds to go around, isn't that just something that would inflate everybodies rebounds at the time, in the same way that modern perimeter players get an efficiency bump by shooting 3s?


Well again, what have we heard from almost every player to play this game, all-star big or not, if your big is gonna run and play defense, you need to reward him. How many times did Shaq willingly pass the ball out and never get it back. Only for a 3 point shot, or someone looking to do the next MJ impersonation? Also, how many bigs in Wilt's day made Wilt leave the paint? The point is, Wilt could stay in position where he was needed, was as in Shaq's day, offenses could make the big fella leave his house exposed more. Not saying this was every time, but certainly much more than Wilt ever faced.

I couldn't help but notice in footage I watched of him that when he grabs a rebound, a lot of times is the only person under the basket or in range. Just food for thought here.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#513 » by tsherkin » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:44 am

So out of curiosity, who is being argued as a competitor for Wilt at #4?

I imagine the whole point of these discussions is to showcase a variety of different criterion and thought processes for how people construct their own personal ranking lists and systems, and some of the arguments have been curious and/or intriguing. Did I miss a recent vote tally?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#514 » by JordansBulls » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:53 am

penbeast0 wrote:Thanks JB. I went back through page by page and found it; already changed the totals but Magic still comes up a vote short since john248 doesn't vote until next thread.

AT THIS POINT, WE HAVE A RUNOFF WITH 17 VOTES FOR WILT CHAMBERLAIN AND 7 FOR SHAQUILLE O'NEAL.

yes agreed. Looks like we should be moving on, Wilt still is dominating this.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4-- Wilt v. Shaq 

Post#515 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 8, 2014 12:54 am

D Nice voted for Magic I believe.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4-- Wilt v. Shaq 

Post#516 » by therealbig3 » Tue Jul 8, 2014 1:01 am

The main criticism of KG is his relative inferiority as a post scorer compared to someone like Duncan, and Dirk is on another level than both of them.

However, I'm not convinced that being an elite back to the basket scorer is all that necessary in order to have ATG impact as a big man, especially when you're not exactly a slouch at that either.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4-- Wilt v. Shaq 

Post#517 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jul 8, 2014 1:02 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:I think Hakeem's peak offense surpasses KGs but it's not clear to me that such was the
Case consistently in his prime.

I consider KGs most noteworthy defensive attribute to be a GOAT level defensive floor general and I've yet to see anything to indicate I should see Hakeem on that level. I might yet but I would never assume such a thing.

to the statements about Garnett not always being able I lead teams to contention, well, I suppose that I consider it a
Central thesis that that is a limitation of players in general.

Hmmm, but if KG was a GOAT level defensive floor general, why were Minny's defenses so weak in his prime? Defensively, Duncan/Hakeem/DRob/Ewing/Deke/Mourning all led better defenses. I know with Nash's offensive impact, you cite his team ORtgs often. So I'm just trying to see how KG is up there with the others when his team DRtgs are so weak before he went to Boston.

I've always seen KG as more of a Rodman styled defender who's great at versatility, but not a dominant defensive anchor on the level of Russ/TD/Hakeem and others in team impact. Hakeem seems to have better offensive & defensive impact...does he not?


2 things:

1 is the point I just made about players in general applying to specifics: we cannot expect them presence of one player it assure a great team defense.

2 definitely Garnett's peak impact defensively came with the role he played in Boston rather than Minny.

Now you might point out that even if we grant superior impact from Garnett in Boston for defense above what Hakeem did this doesn't necessarily mean Hakeem couldn't have done as much or more in a Boston like setting and you'd be right to point out that possibility. I simply don't feel comfort assuming that that particular possibility is the most likely truth.


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Baller2014
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#518 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 8, 2014 1:04 am

JordansBulls wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:Thanks JB. I went back through page by page and found it; already changed the totals but Magic still comes up a vote short since john248 doesn't vote until next thread.

AT THIS POINT, WE HAVE A RUNOFF WITH 17 VOTES FOR WILT CHAMBERLAIN AND 7 FOR SHAQUILLE O'NEAL.

yes agreed. Looks like we should be moving on, Wilt still is dominating this.


I predict the opposite. By Pen's count there are 23 non Wilt voters (not including new voters) v.s 17 Wilt voters. Based on the comments of the anti-Wilt voters, I doubt Wilt is going to get more than 1-2 votes from them. So far everyone who has switched has done so in favour of Shaq.

While I am open to being talked around, I am also going to go with Shaq. I've elaborated in great detail about Wilt's era and what I think of it. Shaq has him on longevity too, and while both had bad attitudes and both underachieved, I feel pretty confident that Shaq wins those comparisons too. Shaq was just the more impactful player IMO, peak and prime, however I've softened somewhat on Wilt in this thread thus far, so could theoretically be talked out of it.

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4 

Post#519 » by colts18 » Tue Jul 8, 2014 1:06 am

GC Pantalones wrote:They definitely beat Boston. Chicago is a close one. It could go either way especially if Wade still plays bad. Any how I wasn't talking about Lebron's playoff performance as a whole but his Finals performance.


The Heat don't beat the Bulls without LeBron. Not even close. That Bulls team was really good. They won 62 games despite the fact that Noah and Boozer missed a combined 57 games. When their starting lineup was healthy, they had an SRS over 8.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #4-- Wilt v. Shaq 

Post#520 » by MisterWestside » Tue Jul 8, 2014 1:10 am

Can't go wrong with either player here. Some things to remember:
-Wider and more reliable range of stats available for the modern greats. Pure RAPM is much higher up the food chain than the incomplete and just "decent" in-out methods used for the old-timers. You can also use more complete box score, on-off data, shot charts, Synergy, etc. And there's way more game film to use. All of these things are superior to the anecdotes that partly shroud the old-timers in mystery.
-Logical inconsistencies if you translate an old-timers game to the modern game. Some posters simply assume that a player like Russell would dominate the modern era the same way that he did in the '50s, even though he never played in the modern era. Playing well in his time during league expansion =/= playing well in our time (even if you think he'd be successful, it's also a significant possibility that he doesn't enjoy the same success). But he was voted for the spot regardless. Comparing an old-timer to a modern is is not a direct comparison, no matter what stats you use or article clippings you read. The contexts are vastly different.

And this isn't just for Chamberlain. No left-hand dribbling West, Robertson (with plenty of flaws of his own), etc. also have to be considered in the same way.

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