The Gordon Hayward Thread

[chabber]

3pm now and hes been here for two days and still no word on anything.

This is getting rather peculiar to say the least.

I wouldn't say peculiar. I'd say the more time spent here, means they are probably making advances toward a S&T. Now whether the terms end up being favorable or if it all just falls apart, I don't know.

[yosemiteben]

You assume there's no option where Hayward signs long term with the Jazz. You assume there's no loyalty there and that he will play hardball to get out of Utah. And you assume the Jazz, if they refuse the sign & trade and force him to sign the offer sheet, won't/can't ship him out somewhere at the trade deadline to a team offering a more useful piece than that package that lacks a centerpiece.

I am definitely assuming Hayward wants to come to Charlotte, as are you if you are hoping for a sign and trade.

I am also definitely assuming that no team is going to send Utah a core piece at the deadline for Hayward when he is about to expire.

I feel like both of those are very safe assumptions if Hayward to Charlotte is going to happen.

It's not safe to assume that both Hayward and Charlotte are willing to wait a year. Hayward can get injured and lose big time long term money (even if it's with the Jazz) and Charlotte could become less attractive to Hayward if Jefferson opts out, then the front office has to juggle both negotiations.

The injury risk is a reason for Hayward to be motivated, not the Hornets. His being motivated works in the Hornets' favor if he wants to get out of Utah, as he would be more likely to burn bridges to convince them to let him go elsewhere.

Al's decision to opt out could happen either way - I don't see the need to sell low on MKG to keep Al happy, especially if we tell him we're going hard after Hayward the next offseason. I'm much more in favor of bringing on Lance and keeping MKG then acquiring Hayward the next offseason.

We could potentially be looking at this depth chart:

Kemba / [PG acquired with Neal's expiring + pick]
Lance / Hendo / Hairston
Hayward / MKG
Zeller / Vonleh
Al / Biz

That team has depth, young guys, defense, and offensive potential.

My stance is that MKG is too valuable of an asset to throw away with expirings and picks just to get Hayward a year earlier. If MKG magically developed a decent mid range jump shot that made him capable of putting up 14-15 ppg, all of the sudden his value jumps through the roof.

[yosemiteben]

Put more simply, if I'm Gordon Hayward and his agent my priorities are:

1) Sign a long term deal with Charlotte via sign & trade this summer
2) Sign a long term deal, guaranteeing myself long term money with my home team Jazz
3) Delay my big payday, play out the year in Utah, risk injury for the opportunity to sign wherever I want to play

The home team has all the leverage imo.

The player is really limited.

And that's why they call Hayward a 'restricted' free agent.

All true, but we aren't having this conversation if Hayward is interested in just signing long term with Utah. I think we have to use that as leverage.

[MasterIchiro]

I am definitely assuming Hayward wants to come to Charlotte, as are you if you are hoping for a sign and trade.

I am also definitely assuming that no team is going to send Utah a core piece at the deadline for Hayward when he is about to expire.

I feel like both of those are very safe assumptions if Hayward to Charlotte is going to happen.

It's not safe to assume that both Hayward and Charlotte are willing to wait a year. Hayward can get injured and lose big time long term money (even if it's with the Jazz) and Charlotte could become less attractive to Hayward if Jefferson opts out, then the front office has to juggle both negotiations.

The injury risk is a reason for Hayward to be motivated, not the Hornets. His being motivated works in the Hornets' favor if he wants to get out of Utah, as he would be more likely to burn bridges to convince them to let him go elsewhere.

Al's decision to opt out could happen either way - I don't see the need to sell low on MKG to keep Al happy, especially if we tell him we're going hard after Hayward the next offseason. I'm much more in favor of bringing on Lance and keeping MKG then acquiring Hayward the next offseason.

We could potentially be looking at this depth chart:

Kemba / [PG acquired with Neal's expiring + pick]
Lance / Hendo / Hairston
Hayward / MKG
Zeller / Vonleh
Al / Biz

That team has depth, young guys, defense, and offensive potential.

My stance is that MKG is too valuable of an asset to throw away with expirings and picks just to get Hayward a year earlier. If MKG magically developed a decent mid range jump shot that made him capable of putting up 14-15 ppg, all of the sudden his value jumps through the roof.

That all looks neat and tidy but it hinges on Hayward risking losing money if injured. Right now his value is pretty high, rumblings of max offers for him. It's his agent's job to capitalize on the market, not delay in favor of the next market, which could be the same or worse. It can't get much better than max offer though and that's there right now either via Charlotte sign & trade or Utah match. Your whole plan hinges on Hayward basically leaving 50 million dollars on the table because he doesn't want to play basketball there. Right now we have nothing concrete suggesting Hayward has any bad relationships there. I know Hayward is a nice guy, a character guy, but his agent has a job to do and if he signs Hayward to that offer sheet during an offseason where his client can get a max contract or close to it with his home team or an up-and-coming team, he's not doing his job. You assume this whole proposition is 1 extra year of Hayward. It really is Hayward or no Hayward. I know me personally, I'd have to really despise a place to leave 50+ million on the table

[MasterIchiro]

Put more simply, if I'm Gordon Hayward and his agent my priorities are:

1) Sign a long term deal with Charlotte via sign & trade this summer
2) Sign a long term deal, guaranteeing myself long term money with my home team Jazz
3) Delay my big payday, play out the year in Utah, risk injury for the opportunity to sign wherever I want to play

The home team has all the leverage imo.

The player is really limited.

And that's why they call Hayward a 'restricted' free agent.

All true, but we aren't having this conversation if Hayward is interested in just signing long term with Utah. I think we have to use that as leverage.

His team knows their contract offer for him is preferable and ranks ahead of the delay of a payday. So they have the leverage.

[Bassman]

I'll say again...I want Lance as option 1. If the play is to somehow S&T for Hayward also, I prefer to keep Hyphen. MKG could be a 6th man/defensive shutdown guy for situations as necessary. Hendo and Zeller would be the best mid to ship if necessary.

[yosemiteben]

Put more simply, if I'm Gordon Hayward and his agent my priorities are:

1) Sign a long term deal with Charlotte via sign & trade this summer
2) Sign a long term deal, guaranteeing myself long term money with my home team Jazz
3) Delay my big payday, play out the year in Utah, risk injury for the opportunity to sign wherever I want to play

The home team has all the leverage imo.

The player is really limited.

And that's why they call Hayward a 'restricted' free agent.

All true, but we aren't having this conversation if Hayward is interested in just signing long term with Utah. I think we have to use that as leverage.

His team knows their contract offer for him is preferable and ranks ahead of the delay of a payday. So they have the leverage.

They do unless they underestimate Hayward's desire to get out of a rebuilding project in the West. Again, we aren't having this conversation unless Hayward wants to go somewhere else. The question is if he's willing to go another year without signing a contract. I agree that you understand the risk - I just think we wouldn't be in this situation unless Hayward wanted to come or at least leave the Jazz, so we shouldn't be selling low on our assets to try to make that happen when it's not necessary.

[yosemiteben]

Was interested in getting Jazz fans' take on this so started a thread in their forum, just fyi.

[MasterIchiro]

All true, but we aren't having this conversation if Hayward is interested in just signing long term with Utah. I think we have to use that as leverage.

His team knows their contract offer for him is preferable and ranks ahead of the delay of a payday. So they have the leverage.

They do unless they underestimate Hayward's desire to get out of a rebuilding project in the West. Again, we aren't having this conversation unless Hayward wants to go somewhere else. The question is if he's willing to go another year without signing a contract. I agree that you understand the risk - I just think we wouldn't be in this situation unless Hayward wanted to come or at least leave the Jazz, so we shouldn't be selling low on our assets to try to make that happen when it's not necessary.

Wanting to come here does not equate to refusal to remain with the Jazz even if compensation for his services there is a near max to max contract that is ripe for the taking. He may prefer the Hornets but to say that his preference, even a strong one, translates into an ultimatum that incurs great financial risk, I think is a stretch. It's wishful thinking. This is not Cho making a futile grab at one measly extra year of Hayward to sell MKG short or appease Al. This is about do we get Gordon Hayward or does his second choice get him? If we assume Hayward/his agent capitalize on a max or near max contract north of 50 million dollars total whether with his first or second choice...

Would you rather give up MKG to acquire Hayward long term or keep MKG while the Jazz match and lose Hayward long term? I think you'd rather keep MKG. I think the Jazz either end up with Hayward long term or MKG long term. The offer sheet makes no sense for a player whose market has peaked.

[yosemiteben]

Would you rather give up MKG to acquire Hayward long term or keep MKG while the Jazz match and lose Hayward long term? I think you'd rather keep MKG. I think the Jazz either end up with Hayward long term or MKG long term. The offer sheet makes no sense for a player whose market has peaked.

I would much rather get Lance and keep MKG, and roll the dice on getting another FA in 2015 (Afflalo, Gerald Green, Thaddeus Young, Wes Matthews, maybe Hayward if he's available). I don't view Hayward as a sure fire max player, so I'm a little wary of giving him a max contract in the first place. Jazz fans are too.

[LofJ]

The whole point of sending them MKG is to avoid having to pay Hayward the max. If we max him out and send them MKG then our front office sucks, plain and simple.

[MasterIchiro]

Would you rather give up MKG to acquire Hayward long term or keep MKG while the Jazz match and lose Hayward long term? I think you'd rather keep MKG. I think the Jazz either end up with Hayward long term or MKG long term. The offer sheet makes no sense for a player whose market has peaked.

I would much rather get Lance and keep MKG, and roll the dice on getting another FA in 2015 (Afflalo, Gerald Green, Thaddeus Young, Wes Matthews, maybe Hayward if he's available). I don't view Hayward as a sure fire max player, so I'm a little wary of giving him a max contract in the first place. Jazz fans are too.

And teams/fans may grow even more weary of giving him a near max contract next offseason which is why Hayward won't be available as a FA in 2015.

My top priority is Hayward now and Lance now. If Lance doesn't sign, then Afflalo or Gerald Green or Wes Matthews next season. So when you go into 2015 with Lance + Afflalo/Green/Matthews (on starter dollars) you'll be paying MKG 8 million on your bench. So you refused a potential guarantee at Hayward for a future bench player stuck behind 2 big contracts at SG + SF.

[MasterIchiro]

The whole point of sending them MKG is to avoid having to pay Hayward the max. If we max him out and send them MKG then our front office sucks, plain and simple.

That's part of it but not the whole thing imo. We have to compete with Hayward's other suitors in compelling the Jazz to agree to a sign & trade. The Cavs don't seem to have made any headway in that department. But the Suns haven't jumped into the picture yet, nor have the Dallas Mavericks or Boston Celtics etc.

[yosemiteben]

I would MUCH rather have MKG and one of Afflalo / Green / Matthews for a total of $18-19M than Hayward for $16M.

[LofJ]

The whole point of sending them MKG is to avoid having to pay Hayward the max. If we max him out and send them MKG then our front office sucks, plain and simple.

That's part of it but not the whole thing imo. We have to compete with Hayward's other suitors in compelling the Jazz to agree to a sign & trade. The Cavs don't seem to have made any headway in that department. But the Suns haven't jumped into the picture yet, nor have the Dallas Mavericks or Boston Celtics etc.

Yep, and that is why I say stay away from restricted free agents. It costs waaaaay too much to sign good ones.

[MasterIchiro]

I would MUCH rather have MKG and one of Afflalo / Green / Matthews for a total of $18-19M than Hayward for $16M.

You're still paying 8 million for a bench player with upcoming contracts owed Kemba + Al Jefferson if he opts out. And you didn't move Hendo in a Hayward deal, so you can add that 6 million to your 18-19 total. If it's 20 you're looking at 26 million for your duo vs. Hayward at 16. Give me Hayward plus a 10 million starter (Afflalo). Now I'm at 26 million and I have Afflalo starting instead of MKG on the bench.

[MasterIchiro]

I don't know if the Bonnell tweet made its way into this thread but apparently Clifford was not at practice today and neither was Cho.

Gordon Hayward's Charlotte visit apparently continues
Published on Jul 8, 2014 11:57AM

Neither general manager Rich Cho, nor coach Steve Clifford, at summer practice. Must still be Hayward-palooza. pic.twitter.com/kJ2tRIU5rL
— Rick Bonnell (@rick_bonnell) July 8, 2014

Looks like Gordon Hayward's visit to North Carolina continues.

With forward Josh McRoberts reportedly agreeing to a deal with the Miami Heat, Charlotte has plenty of space to offer Hayward up to the max (four years, $63 million).

But all indications so far are that the Jazz still intend to match any offer the restricted free agent might get.

— Aaron Falk


http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsjazzn ... m.html.csp

[yosemiteben]

I would MUCH rather have MKG and one of Afflalo / Green / Matthews for a total of $18-19M than Hayward for $16M.

You're still paying 8 million for a bench player with upcoming contracts owed Kemba + Al Jefferson if he opts out. And you didn't move Hendo in a Hayward deal, so you can add that 6 million to your 18-19 total. If it's 20 you're looking at 26 million for your duo vs. Hayward at 16. Give me Hayward plus a 10 million starter (Afflalo). Now I'm at 26 million and I have Afflalo starting instead of MKG on the bench.

I view Hendo as an asset that can be moved - you are at $26M but you've already given away a $6M expiring that is a productive player.

That $8M pay out for MKG is two seasons away. I personally feel there is a high likelihood that he will outperform that contract, and certainly will out perform the $5M he is owed this upcoming season and $6M the next season.

[MasterIchiro]

I would MUCH rather have MKG and one of Afflalo / Green / Matthews for a total of $18-19M than Hayward for $16M.

You're still paying 8 million for a bench player with upcoming contracts owed Kemba + Al Jefferson if he opts out. And you didn't move Hendo in a Hayward deal, so you can add that 6 million to your 18-19 total. If it's 20 you're looking at 26 million for your duo vs. Hayward at 16. Give me Hayward plus a 10 million starter (Afflalo). Now I'm at 26 million and I have Afflalo starting instead of MKG on the bench.

I view Hendo as an asset that can be moved - you are at $26M but you've already given away a $6M expiring that is a productive player.

That $8M pay out for MKG is two seasons away. I personally feel there is a high likelihood that he will outperform that contract, and certainly will out perform the $5M he is owed this upcoming season and $6M the next season.

We both have Afflalo for 10 million let's say. You have MKG on the bench, I have Hayward starting. The money might even be the same if Hayward is 14. 14 = 6 (Henderson) + 8 (MKG). It's basically you prefer MKG on the bench to Hayward starting. You can't make it seem like you're getting an extra player for the price of Hayward because you're not. Henderson is hardly an asset. In fact I'm dumping Henderson now, in advance of Kemba's extension and Al's potential opt out. And I'm securing Lance now. you're waiting on Afflalo.

[Dancingpanda]

In my opinion Hayward only fits with our team if we don't give up allot of assets, especially MKG. If the Jazz dont want to play ball with a S&T i say call their bluff, give Hayward a SLIGHT over pay and see if they match. If they do, walk away find someone else. I feel this deal could make or break our team, depending on how this is handled.