The Gordon Hayward Thread

MasterIchiro · Post #981 » by **MasterIchiro** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:46 pm

If it turns out Cho has a deal(s) lined up to move Henderson + Neal I will forgive him for not attempting to move salary in a sign + trade for Hayward which I believe would have improved the odds of acquiring him.

When the Jazz match, get Lance. Let's say at 13 mil worst case scenario. Cap goes from 19.5 (Blackoutbobcat figure) to 6.5.

Then you have surplus at SG in Henderson + Neal. Send them to Philly along with a couple 2nd rounders, 2015 Hornets and 2019 Heat.

Then you have Lance, no logjam at SG, 15.5 cap space and you kept MKG and Zeller out of a sign & trade.

Elden Payton · Post #982 » by **Elden Payton** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:48 pm

jdm3 wrote:
Maneesh wrote:
jdm3 wrote:Actually teams don't always do this. A lot of times it is teams fighting for the same FA so they hold cap space from another team. The Jazz are doing this strictly out of spite. We offered before the start of FA and they know they are going to match. A lot of teams just match and move on but this joker is mad we offered him what he was going to get and we were not scared off by his threats so they could low ball him. Trying to intimidate teams away from his FA so he can low ball offer will not look good on him. Also I would not be surprised if we as a team just mess with them when we have a chance as payback.

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Lol. So mad. You gm try screw jazz. It's not hard of vision man. I'm sorry I say before, jazz have right to screw back and they will. But I also say, best luck and hopeful have good chance at others.

We did not try to screw anyone we signed a guy to an offer sheet. Jazz are screwing around and waiting for no reason but spite. It is easy to see that here. I am not mad about matching but being a jerk about it because you couldn't low ball a guy is low class. Your team is a bad fit for him so I feel very bad for the kid getting stuck in that mess right now.

I don't feel sorry for Hayward at all.

He's about to be extremely wealthy either way and he's the most popular white guy in Salt Lake City (aside from Joseph Smith)

LofJ · Post #983 » by **LofJ** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:49 pm

Biz Gilwalker wrote:
Flip Murray wrote:Somebody call lance dammit

ffs this needed to happen before all this Hayward crap.

And the 3-day matching thing is done all over the league. It's a non-issue. We can still offer Lance a contract which he can even agree to in principle, just can't actually sign the paperwork and submit it until Sunday. It's simply a formality at this point.

Lance has a track record of violence and unpredictability, so it's not surprising to me that we went after Hayward first. He is an even bigger risk than Hayward is, but to win big you have to take risks like that from time to time. We're in a position to take that risk, so hopefully our front office feels the same way and is prepared to go after him now that it looks like the Jazz will keep Hayward.

mrknowitall215 · Post #984 » by **mrknowitall215** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:52 pm

I don't understand the excessive allure & consensus respect for Gordon Hayward

What type of statistical numbers should I expect from a max-contract player that wouldn't be considered a disappointment? I would like to know beforehand so that I'm not the only one having lofty expectations on my own

BeesWax · Post #985 » by **BeesWax** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:55 pm

Sik Infant wrote:
jdm3 wrote:
Maneesh wrote:

Lol. So mad. You gm try screw jazz. It's not hard of vision man. I'm sorry I say before, jazz have right to screw back and they will. But I also say, best luck and hopeful have good chance at others.

We did not try to screw anyone we signed a guy to an offer sheet. Jazz are screwing around and waiting for no reason but spite. It is easy to see that here. I am not mad about matching but being a jerk about it because you couldn't low ball a guy is low class. Your team is a bad fit for him so I feel very bad for the kid getting stuck in that mess right now.

I don't feel sorry for Hayward at all.

He's about to be extremely wealthy either way and he's the most popular white guy in Salt Lake City (aside from Joseph Smith)

That I don't feel sorry about. I feel bad that his NBA career is hurt by being stuck in a bad situation. He always seemed like a good kid to me and I would really like to see what he was capable of with a good team around him where he could do what he does best. Being relegated to out there will hurt his career unless they really change the roster over the next two years.

HornetJail · Post #986 » by **HornetJail** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:58 pm

mrknowitall215 wrote:I don't understand the excessive allure & consensus respect for Gordon Hayward

What type of statistical numbers should I expect from a max-contract player that wouldn't be considered a disappointment? I would like to know beforehand so that I'm not the only one having lofty expectations on my own

Nothing Hayward was going to do was going to live up to a max contract. He'd have to put up an efficient 20/5/5 for us and knock Kemba down to third option to be worth the kind of money he is getting. Pretty much, I think only All-stars deserve max contracts. Hayward is definitely not an all-star.

Elden Payton · Post #987 » by **Elden Payton** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:00 pm

jdm3 wrote:
Sik Infant wrote:
jdm3 wrote:We did not try to screw anyone we signed a guy to an offer sheet. Jazz are screwing around and waiting for no reason but spite. It is easy to see that here. I am not mad about matching but being a jerk about it because you couldn't low ball a guy is low class. Your team is a bad fit for him so I feel very bad for the kid getting stuck in that mess right now.

I don't feel sorry for Hayward at all.

He's about to be extremely wealthy either way and he's the most popular white guy in Salt Lake City (aside from Joseph Smith)

That I don't feel sorry about. I feel bad that his NBA career is hurt by being stuck in a bad situation. He always seemed like a good kid to me and I would really like to see what he was capable of with a good team around him where he could do what he does best. Being relegated to out there will hurt his career unless they really change the roster over the next two years.

Excellent point!

Elden Payton · Post #988 » by **Elden Payton** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:02 pm

Biz Gilwalker wrote:
mrknowitall215 wrote:I don't understand the excessive allure & consensus respect for Gordon Hayward

What type of statistical numbers should I expect from a max-contract player that wouldn't be considered a disappointment? I would like to know beforehand so that I'm not the only one having lofty expectations on my own

Nothing Hayward was going to do was going to live up to a max contract. He'd have to put up an efficient 20/5/5 for us and knock Kemba down to third option to be worth the kind of money he is getting. Pretty much, I think only All-stars deserve max contracts. Hayward is definitely not an all-star.

Most definitely agree.

I'm against the deal on this basis.

ball teacher · Post #989 » by **ball teacher** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:08 pm

I don't know why we didn't just go for Parsons to be honest

amcoolio · Post #990 » by **amcoolio** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:09 pm

Hayward's better and can play 2 guard. Swap Hayward and Parsons teams last year, and Hayward comfortably gets the max from 8 NBA teams.

MasterIchiro · Post #991 » by **MasterIchiro** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:11 pm

ball teacher wrote:I don't know why we didn't just go for Parsons to be honest

I think Hayward's advantage is his versatility and experience at 2 positions in the NBA plus his history with Al gave us an inside track on him agreeing to our offer sheet.

Houston holds the Bird Rights on Parsons and can match even if they go over cap. Plus there's nothing here really luring Parsons away. He has no prior relationships/ties to any of our players or coaches that I know of and he'd be going from a superior team to an inferior one, the reverse situation for Hayward.

BeesWax · Post #992 » by **BeesWax** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:12 pm

Sik Infant wrote:
Biz Gilwalker wrote:
mrknowitall215 wrote:I don't understand the excessive allure & consensus respect for Gordon Hayward

What type of statistical numbers should I expect from a max-contract player that wouldn't be considered a disappointment? I would like to know beforehand so that I'm not the only one having lofty expectations on my own

Nothing Hayward was going to do was going to live up to a max contract. He'd have to put up an efficient 20/5/5 for us and knock Kemba down to third option to be worth the kind of money he is getting. Pretty much, I think only All-stars deserve max contracts. Hayward is definitely not an all-star.

Most definitely agree.

I'm against the deal on this basis.

I think he would have had a chance to live up to it. It would have been the best fit team wise for him since being in the NBA. We would have had a better mix of players than Utah has had. Mo Williams and Foye were not as good a fit around him as MKG and Kemba would be. Playing off Al using the pick and roll would be good for him. Depending on the way we go at PF to fit needs would have been interesting. I could see a very good season and possibly an all star appearance with the way he would have fit here.

mrknowitall215 · Post #993 » by **mrknowitall215** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:14 pm

Biz Gilwalker wrote:
mrknowitall215 wrote:I don't understand the excessive allure & consensus respect for Gordon Hayward

What type of statistical numbers should I expect from a max-contract player that wouldn't be considered a disappointment? I would like to know beforehand so that I'm not the only one having lofty expectations on my own

Nothing Hayward was going to do was going to live up to a max contract. He'd have to put up an efficient 20/5/5 for us and knock Kemba down to third option to be worth the kind of money he is getting. Pretty much, I think only All-stars deserve max contracts. Hayward is definitely not an all-star.

That's pretty much how I see it as well. I only believe that players that could be considered 'superstars' should receive max-contracts in excess of $15 million while All-Stars should receive the near max-contract offers between $13-15 million annually. I don't see Hayward as being in either of those categories. I lost a lot of respect for his ceiling when he couldn't post inflated numbers on a Jazz team that was horrible and woefully relied on him to no avail. Last year was a contract year for Hayward to prove that he was worth the max-contract he demanded, and his performance regressed, yet still here we are discussing the fact that he was offered a max-contract. It's quite dubiously cynical if you ask me

mrknowitall215 · Post #994 » by **mrknowitall215** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:17 pm

amcoolio wrote:Hayward's better and can play 2 guard. Swap Hayward and Parsons teams last year, and Hayward comfortably gets the max from 8 NBA teams.

I don't think we could comfortably say that Hayward is better than Parsons. They are fairly equal with the same skill sets

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2014

amcoolio · Post #995 » by **amcoolio** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:20 pm

mrknowitall215 wrote:
amcoolio wrote:Hayward's better and can play 2 guard. Swap Hayward and Parsons teams last year, and Hayward comfortably gets the max from 8 NBA teams.

I don't think we could comfortably say that Hayward is better than Parsons. They are fairly equal with the same skill sets

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2014

Comeon, you know you cant compare Houston (Up tempo, James Harden, Dwight Howard, and a host of complimentary players) to Utah (Ty Corbin, trying to tank, Richard Jefferson playing big minutes, no other offensive players)

MasterIchiro · Post #996 » by **MasterIchiro** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:23 pm

I love how fans don't seem to realize when they would only offer Hayward 10 or Lance under 10 or Parsons 8-9 they would be left with a player no one wants for 6 (Henderson, Meeks).

You get what you pay for.

These players are getting offers because teams don't want to be stuck with the guys who make 6 and don't deserve it. They'd prefer the guys who make 15 and don't deserve it. Those teams don't want to be the Pistons and neither do I.

MasterIchiro · Post #997 » by **MasterIchiro** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:26 pm

Signing players is not about getting the best bang for your buck or the best bargain value out there. There are plenty of teams with mediocre players on decent deals but those teams aren't necessarily any better.

The goal is to field the best team possible and sometimes to do that you bring in guys who earn above what they deserve because those guys are the kind of difference makers your main competitors are more than willing to pay a premium for.

If you don't want to pay the premium, then you don't want to compete.

And you have a team of K-Mart blu-light specials.

LofJ · Post #998 » by **LofJ** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:27 pm

I think we're all going to be shocked when we find out how much Deng, Ariza, Marion, Pierce, Stephenson, and hell even Turner get paid by the time free agency is over. As Ichiro and others have said it's simply supply and demand. The teams with cap seeking these guys outnumber the players available so to make sure you get them you have to outpay the other teams. If we want Stephenson we're going to have to pay more than Chicago, Dallas, Phoenix, etc. are willing to pay.

ARHornet · Post #999 » by **ARHornet** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:28 pm

Ultimately it really doesn't matter to us because Hayward is going back to Utah and everyone knows it.

mrknowitall215 · Post #1000 » by **mrknowitall215** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:29 pm

amcoolio wrote:
mrknowitall215 wrote:
amcoolio wrote:Hayward's better and can play 2 guard. Swap Hayward and Parsons teams last year, and Hayward comfortably gets the max from 8 NBA teams.

I don't think we could comfortably say that Hayward is better than Parsons. They are fairly equal with the same skill sets

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2014

Comeon, you know you cant compare Houston (Up tempo, James Harden, Dwight Howard, and a host of complimentary players) to Utah (Ty Corbin, trying to tank, Richard Jefferson playing big minutes, no other offensive players)

You can contrast the fact that Parsons had better teammates than Hayward that made his usage lesser, but he still manage to post equal raw numbers. Sure, Parsons' efficiency probably was helped a lot by player on a better team, but he still delivered. Parsons had a solid rookie year before James Harden came on board when the team was kind of terrible. I don't get it, if Parsons played on a team without much help we would be using the excuse that his numbers are inflated. I'm not saying that Parsons is better than Hayward, but they are in the same tier and they are similar players with likewise skill sets