ronnymac2 wrote:Note: The following is not in any way my justification for voting for Shaq. The following is a question posed to those whose criteria includes the team result. The team result does not matter to me.
Where exactly did Shaq's non-championship teams underachieve when he missed time?
1996 — Lost to GOAT-level Chicago Bulls in ECF, after losing Horace Grant in ECF
1997 — Lost to NBA Finalist Utah Jazz in WCSF, 7.97 SRS (2nd of 29), 64 wins, regarded as perhaps the greatest team to never win a title when healthy in playoffs
1998 — Lost to NBA Finalist Utah Jazz in WCF, 5.73 SRS (5th out of 29), 62 wins
1999 — Lost to NBA Champion San Antonio Spurs in WCSF, 7.12 SRS (1st out of 29), 37 wins in 50 games
2003 — Lost to NBA Champion San Antonio Spurs in WCSF, 5.65 SRS (3rd out of 29), 60 wins, LA had no healthy SF in series, Kobe Bryant had injured shoulder in series
2004 — Lost to NBA Champion Detroit Pistons in NBA Finals, 5.04 SRS (4th out of 29), 54 wins, Detroit played Defense at GOAT-Level after Rasheed Wallace trade, Karl Malone injured in NBA Finals
2005 — Lost to NBA Finalist Detroit Pistons in ECF, 3.31 SRS (6th out of 30), 54 wins, Dwyane Wade injured during series (misses Game 6)
Here is how Shaq performed in those series.
2006 ECF : 27 / 11 / 4apg / 2bpg on 64%FG / 60%TS
Had 3 games in this series where he scored 27+ on 60-80+% FG.
Had a 36 / 14 / 6apg on 83%TS game which they lost by 5.
I don't give Shaq any significant blame for this series.
He was great on both offense & defense and he was devastatingly efficient.
Penny struggled in this series (arguably getting outplayed by Pippen) and the Magics main offense roleplayers (Scott/Anderson) were both atrocious (understatement).
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1997 2nd round Struggles in the first 3 games averaging 18 / 11 / 2apg on a horrible 45%TS
Plays well in the final 2 games averaging 29 / 12 / 5apg / 4bpg on 58%FG / 61%TS.
They lost those last two games by an average of 11ppg.
I give Shaq some blame for this series.
For example they might have won G2 if he made a few more shots.
He did have 25 / 12 / 2ast / 2blk in that game but he shot only 10-25 from the field.
G1 was a blowout. Even had Shaq scored a few more points it likely wouldn't have changed the outcome.
Van Exel was the only guy who was giving Shaq some offensive support in this series.
Jones was terrible and Kobe was still not ready for the big time.
So in the end that Utah team was simply better then the Lakers.
They had two stars and years to refine their team craft unlike the Lakers who were in their first year together.
Oh, they also had better coaching with Sloan.
I never thought much of Del Harris as a coach and his teams had a combined playoff record of 21W - 31L before he came to LA.
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1998 WCFStruggles in the first game but then averages 36 / 10 on 59%TS in the rest of the series.
He had a 39 / 15 / 2apg on 57% which they lost by 15.
His supporting players choked away this series.
Van Exel was atrocious (something like 12ppg on 24% shooting with like 2apg).
Jones was mediocre at best and Kobe was terrible.
The Jazz were just the battle tested, refined and overall superior team with better coaching.
Still I gotta put the blame mostly on guys like Van Exel and Jones for playing so poorly.
Kobe was still young so I won't give him any flack.
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2005 ECFDespite being in his 13th year, well past his Peak and having suffered a serious injury prior to the playoffs Shaq had a pretty damn good series against the tough interior Detroit defense led by the Wallace twins.
Shaq averaged 20 / 7 / 2apg / 2bpg on 60%TS in the first 3 games of that 7 game series.
In the final 3 games Shaq averaged 24 / 9 / 2apg / 3bpg on 62%FG / 59%TS.
He also had his best game of the series in G7 dropping 27 / 9 / 2stl / 3blk on 63%TS.
Like Ronny said if Wade doesn't get injured they almost certainly make the Finals this year.
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I got lazy so I didn't do 99, 03 & 04.
99 - Similar to 97 situation but Shaq didn't perform as badly.
03 - Shaq had a dominant series on all fronts (offense/rebounding/defense).
Duncan was just a monster this year. Combine that with Kobe being injured/inconsistent and the roleplayers crew being not only dreadfully thin but also injured and you can understand why they lost.
Plus the team had chemistry issues and Phil was missing games due to health issues.
04 - Don't really need to explain this one.
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Using Top 5 MVP finishes as an acid test of an elite season(Top 5 player), Lebron is already on par with Shaq.
Which is why using them for that purpose is illogical.
Shaq was an elite player for 14 years. Lebron has 10 years currently of elite play.
Lebron's been more consistent than Shaq.
I disagree strongly.
Shaq as a playoff performer over his first 10 years was far more consistent in terms of his overall production & efficiency.
He also was a far better Finals performer and had far fewer failures in elimination.
and in turn it can be argued that his career value is even.
Not even close.
Shaq was a much better playoff/finals performer through their first 10 years and he still has a strong edge in total longevity aswell.
There is no reasonable case for Lebron to be ranked over Shaq at this time.
