RealGM Top 100 List #5

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#561 » by ceiling raiser » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:01 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
fpliii wrote:In a runoff, my pick is Tim Duncan. Not the same offensive force as Shaq, but superior consistency rebounding/defending, which is what I need to see from bigs.

Duncan was not a better rebounder.
Defensively sure he had the edge but Shaq was still a very good defensive anchor over his Prime and as others have said I feel his edge offensively was significantly greater then Duncans edge defensively.
Shaq when putting forth max effort could replicate Duncans defensive impact.

Duncan could never replicate Shaqs offensive impact.

Shaq's longevity is underrated, but Duncan gets the edge in terms of post-prime production IMO.

Eh... Duncan entered the league much later then Shaq did.
I wouldn't say he has any edge in longevity.
Duncan has about the same number of quality years and one could argue that Shaq's final quality years were better then Duncan.
Duncan's last two quality years were 13-14 but he wasn't better then Shaq in his final two quality years (05/06).

Point is Duncan has no legit advantage in longevity unless you go by age rather then season which is obviously illogical.

1) Disagree that Shaq putting forth max effort could consistently match Duncan's defense.
2) Which seasons do you consider to be quality years for Shaq, and for Duncan?
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#562 » by An Unbiased Fan » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:08 am

acrossthecourt wrote:And I don't believe the box score says everything about a player. You can nitpick with Lewis and Gibson and others, but you can find similar outliers in every metric.

No one's solely using RAPM to rank legends. It's just a bit of evidence people are using, like championships, how teams do when a star is traded, PPG, etc.


Here's one link:
http://www.apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.p ... 96&p=15343

RAPM outperforms everything else in prediction. I think that's xRAPM though, a blend.

I did one too for 2013:
http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.bl ... trics.html

RAPM holds up well, and it does better when teams have more player personnel changes. That's a good sign.

Another:
http://sportskeptic.wordpress.com/2012/ ... the-goods/


One note: if you predict next season's win totals with a metric, something like Win Shares does well because most teams stay intact and Win Shares is about explaining wins. PER doesn't even try on defense and is incomplete, while RAPM is reducing a different kind of error. Thus, it's better to look at how the metrics predict future wins or point differential two or three years out or with teams that have a high amount of changes.

xRAPM was built on out of sample testing and improving prediction. Saying it wasn't tested means you don't know the metric (I hope that doesn't come across as offensive; it's just the basic fact of how it was built.) You could use RAPM and compete with Vegas with a few tweaks. Yes it does align with impact. That's why it became so popular.


If you want a good blended metric, Real Plus/minus is pretty good and Talkingpractice's stuff, IPV, is probably even better, but they don't have historical results.


Something to consider: machines are getting better at predictions now, outperforming humans, but what does best is a human working together with a machine/computer. There was an anecdote about this in weather forecasting. So no, don't rank players on RAPM. But it's more evidence. Look for patterns. Use your human-powered pattern recognition and knowledge.

Poking at Rashard's DRAPM does nothing useful. It's one player. No metric is perfect. You don't sell a good car because you don't like the cup holders. Stare too long at stats and Dantley is better than Bird for most of the 80's, Robin Lopez is the next Bill Walton for his seismic shift in wins, and Stephon Marbury was a good point guard because of points and assists.

First, thanks for the links, though I've seen most before. I appreciate the good reply.

Second, RAPM is based on lineup data, so one would expect it to be fairly useful in predictive analysis. That however has nothing to do with individual impact. All it tells you is that "so and so" plays in advantageous off/def rotations for his team. Once you game the metric by factoring in prior seasons, rotational trends will be even easier to figure. High utility guys like Odom/Manu will naturally have high values due to their unique substitution roles. This is why I bring up guys like Lewis & Gibson. For me, it's not a mystery why they are so high, it all goes back to the mechanisms of how RAPM is calculated. A defensive specliast who plays 20-30 mins will have high ratings because they're a part of more defensive-minded lineups. if a coach needs stops, then he puts in certain players, and if he needs buckets, he'll go a different way. RAPM is a nice tool for a coach to make adjustments, but in no way should they be misused to say player A performed better than Player B. More like Lineup A > Lineup B.

With that said, I don't want to go any deeper because its not fair to others in the project, and I went a bit overboard last thread. So we'll have to discuss this more at a later time.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#563 » by RayBan-Sematra » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:18 am

fpliii wrote:1) Disagree that Shaq putting forth max effort could consistently match Duncan's defense.


Maybe not but I think Shaq in a year like 00 came closer to matching Duncans Prime defensive impact then Duncan ever came to matching a Prime Shaqs offensive impact.
Shaq could be a defensive monster when he was putting in the effort.
He was closer to Duncan in defensive capability then Duncan was to him in terms of offensive capability.

2) Which seasons do you consider to be quality years for Shaq, and for Duncan?


Shaq had 14 quality years from 93-06.
Duncan (98-99) (01-10) That is 12 quality years.

Then we have 2011. Down year for Duncan. Probably wouldn't call that a quality year.

Then we have 2012. Better year for Duncan but still not close to 13th year (05) Shaq.
Then we have 2013. Pretty good year but he was worse then 14th year (06) Shaq.
Then we have 2014 Duncan. Probably better then 07/09 Shaq but not by much.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#564 » by rico381 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:20 am

I posted earlier about how LeBron's peak ranks in terms of WS/48 and PER. In both cases, he has the best, second-best, third-best, and fourth-best season of any player still eligible for the list. I also ranked the best seasons by MVP shares, and found that LeBron has the #1 season overall, three of the top 10, and four of the top 20. Bird is the only other player still eligible with more than one season in the top 20 by this metric. Especially with the discussion of alternatives to WS and PER going around, I wanted to look at the top seasons by from one more perspective, this time by RAPM.

I'll be using the RAPM chronology sheet Doc MJ put together here, which scales to make values comparable across years. That sheet ends in 2012, cutting off one GOAT-level peak year from Bron and another league-leading year, so I copied the numbers from J.E.'s site into excel and calculated the number of standard deviations above average for those years, too. I'm not 100% sure the numbers I used are calculated the exact same way as the source data, so I've denoted the years as such. I'm also a little distrustful of the 97-98 data; it seems to have a higher variance (Mookie Blaylock is at +3.71 SDs, the 10th-highest single-season score on the list), and being the first year in the data, I'm not sure if there's any prior-informed component helping its accuracy, so I've noted those years as well. Here are the top seasons of all time by this metric:

Code: Select all

LeBron    09-10 4.62
Shaq      97-98 4.31  (see above)
Garnett   03-04 4.26
LeBron    08-09 4.15
Mourning  97-98 4.00  (see above)
LeBron    12-13 3.97  (see above)
Wade      09-10 3.96
Garnett   02-03 3.89
Dirk      10-11 3.87
Duncan    06-07 3.83


(For the curious, the other +3 seasons in the 13 and 14 seasons I calculated are 13 Paul +3.22, 13 Durant +3.14, and 14 LeBron +3.01)
Once again, we see a similar story. LeBron has three of the top 6 years of the 98-14 era, and if we don't trust the 97-98 data (Doc, if you can clarify where exactly this comes from and if it is as trustworthy as future years with more of a prior, I'd appreciate that), that moves up to 3 of the top 4 years over the 99-14 period. This includes the vast majority of Shaq, Duncan, and KG's careers, (as well as other elite players like Dirk, Wade, Paul, and Nash), and LeBron just blows them away.

LeBron's best season is .31 standard deviations better than Shaq's best (1.02 without 97-98), .36 better than KG's, and .79 better than Duncan's.

LeBron's second-best season is .45 standard deviations better than Shaq's second-best (.90 without 97-98), .26 better than KG's, and 1.06 better than Duncan's.

LeBron's third-best season is .72 standard deviations better than Shaq's third-best (.75 without 97-98), .37 better than KG's, and .89 better than Duncan's.

LeBron's fourth-best season is .04 standard deviations worse than Shaq's (.16 better without 97-98), .13 worse than KG's, and .37 better than Duncan's.

LeBron's fifth-best season is .01 standard deviations worse than Shaq's (.08 better without 97-98), .21 worse than KG's, and .26 better than Duncan's.

The sum of LeBron's 5 best seasons is 18.93, compared to 18.28 for Garnett, 17.41 for Shaq (16.03 without 97-98), and 15.57 for Duncan.

A few more things to keep in mind:
-Each standard deviation is worth roughly 2.5 points, and we're talking about the most extreme top end of the curve. ElGee has posted his championship odds curve a few times, but what's important is just to remember that it's hyperlinear, with the slope continually increasing as you get higher and higher. The extra point or two that peak and near-peak LeBron is worth compared to even (near)-peak Shaq/KG/Duncan comes at the steepest part of the graph, where even every half point makes a huge difference in championship odds.

-RAPM can be influenced by randomness a fair amount. You'll often see results that don't make intuitive sense, and that's partly because there's a lot of chance involved. Sometimes you play well and your teammates just happen to miss shots when you're on the floor. Since it evaluates the performance of your whole team rather than just your individual stats, an individual player has a much lower degree of control over their results, and it's harder to dominate. Even if someone was far and away the best of their era, you wouldn't expect to see them go down the line and have every top season like LeBron does with box score statistics.

-RAPM is purely per-minute or per-possession. That means there's no bonus given for staying healthy or for playing lots of minutes, which LeBron has done every year of his career, unlike Shaq and Duncan. To go back to ElGee's championship odds graph, this is the very steepest part at the extreme rightmost part of the single highest line on the graph, and for most of the competition seasons, not only are you moving left in terms of impact, you're moving to a lower line in terms of health as well.

-The benefits of versatility aren't totally accounted for in RAPM. Suppose you're a +6 player who can only play one position and one role. The team already has, or can sign, a +2 player who plays the same role as you, but because that's a poor fit, they use the same resources to get a +1 guy who complements you. You then play with the +1 guy, get a +7 result, and the equation looks at your lineups and says: you took +1 surroundings to +7; you're a +6 guy. What it can't measure is that really those surroundings could've been +2, and really your impact was more like +5, taking +2 to +7. All the combinations that don't work with you, but which obviously enough don't work that the GM or coach avoids them, don't end up hurting your RAPM score, even if they do hurt your team.
This versatility is a point in Duncan's favor, who can play alongside a PF or a C, a Diaw or a Splitter. It's a point in Bird's favor, as his size and shooting ability lets them match up in unique ways on offense and play multiple positions. But nobody exemplifies versatility like LeBron, who can play initiate your offense as a PG on one end and help anchor your defense as a PF on the other; who's got arguably the best post game in the league and who hits spot-up threes as well as Curry or Korver; who can lead a 66-win team as the primary ball-handler and then do it again four years later alongside one of the most ball-dominant guards the league has ever seen; who is the embodiment of the wave of positionless basketball that is taking over the league.

-RAPM, like box-score statistics, has no accounting for clutch performance. It only accounts for point differential, and not a player's ability to affect when and where those points come. Usually, that assumption is a safe one. LeBron's penetration might be the single most potent self-created offensive option ever seen, though, and while going to it every time down might wear down his body too much, it allows him to absolutely dominate in the clutch. In several different seasons, we've seen Lebron-led teams play at a level roughly equivalent to a +35-45 MOV team in clutch seasons, with LeBron averaging a statline in the neighborhood of 50-15-10 on .600 TS% per 48 clutch minutes. (These numbers are so unbelievable I understand if you want to look them up yourself. Here's 08-09, 09-10, and 12-13. That's a +45, +37, and +37 team net rating per 48 minutes, respectively. :o ). The numbers simply defy comprehension, but they're yet another indication that a metric like RAPM, or like PER and WS/48 that just looks at how a player impacts point differential is selling LeBron short. He dominates the competition there, and yet he's probably even better than the metric makes him seem.

The one knock about LeBron is in terms of longevity. And yet I get the feeling that the problem is not that he hasn't accomplished enough in his career, but just that he's done it all before age 29, and we feel like there's even more to come. If this was the portfolio of a player whose career was already over and we were looking back on it, though, I don't think we're half as concerned about it. Michael Jordan played 11 full seasons with the Bulls. He won #1 easily, and nobody was even thinking of anyone besides Russell and a couple of Kareem voters over him. Duncan and Shaq didn't get any attention at all. Why? Because Jordan reached a level of dominance over the league where he changed the entire landscape, where the entire championship picture went through him, and no other player was at close to his level. Jordan maintained that level for 8 years or so with three more just below it, compared to about 6 for LeBron with four more just below it, but there's really not a huge difference there. It's enough to knock LeBron out of consideration for #1, sure, but for #5, he should be right there.

Magic and Bird finished at #4 and #6 in 2011, ahead of Shaq and Hakeem. Duncan has added a few post-prime seasons since them, but that was enough for them to surpass the entire careers of the other two. And they've got roughly the same number of total career MP as Lebron, fewer prime years, and a far less dominant peak. They alternated years winning MVPs and generally seemed to be each other's equals for most of their careers. LeBron took players like '09 Wade, Paul, and Kobe, or '13 Durant, and won the MVP over them with 97 - 99% of the vote. He combines Magic and Bird's offensive genius and incredible passing with the efficient volume scoring of a Durant or a Barkley and the defensive ability of a Pippen or Iguodala. I've got LeBron comfortably ahead of Magic and Bird, and they were good enough to be ahead of every other player available last time. I could see an argument being made to move Shaq or Duncan above those two if you value longevity, but nobody would make the argument to move them above Jordan for that reason, and that's closer to the kind of company LeBron is in right now. Nobody else has had a sustained period of unquestioned dominance over the league for more than a couple years, and LeBron's working on 5 or 6 and counting.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#565 » by Baller2014 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:22 am

What is this "quality years" stuff? It's bizarre. Shaq has a prime of about 12 years (94-05), some of it much worse/better than other years. Duncan has a 10 year prime (98-07). If we're talking about "quality years" I'm pretty sure Duncan in 2013 and 2014 when he was the best player on a championship calibre team are still "quality" years. Shaq was an underachiever. He had a bad attitude and inconsistent play, especially on D, and that's basically the reason Duncan did better over his career with a worse hand.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#566 » by Baller2014 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:24 am

rico381 wrote:I posted earlier about how LeBron's peak ranks in terms of WS/48 and PER. In both cases, he has the best, second-best, third-best, and fourth-best season of any player still eligible for the list. I also ranked the best seasons by MVP shares, and found that LeBron has the #1 season overall, three of the top 10, and four of the top 20. Bird is the only other player still eligible with more than one season in the top 20 by this metric. Especially with the discussion of alternatives to WS and PER going around, I wanted to look at the top seasons by from one more perspective, this time by RAPM.

I'll be using the RAPM chronology sheet Doc MJ put together here, which scales to make values comparable across years. That sheet ends in 2012, cutting off one GOAT-level peak year from Bron and another league-leading year, so I copied the numbers from J.E.'s site into excel and calculated the number of standard deviations above average for those years, too. I'm not 100% sure the numbers I used are calculated the exact same way as the source data, so I've denoted the years as such. I'm also a little distrustful of the 97-98 data; it seems to have a higher variance (Mookie Blaylock is at +3.71 SDs, the 10th-highest single-season score on the list), and being the first year in the data, I'm not sure if there's any prior-informed component helping its accuracy, so I've noted those years as well. Here are the top seasons of all time by this metric:

Code: Select all

LeBron    09-10 4.62
Shaq      97-98 4.31  (see above)
Garnett   03-04 4.26
LeBron    08-09 4.15
Mourning  97-98 4.00  (see above)
LeBron    12-13 3.97  (see above)
Wade      09-10 3.96
Garnett   02-03 3.89
Dirk      10-11 3.87
Duncan    06-07 3.83


(For the curious, the other +3 seasons in the 13 and 14 seasons I calculated are 13 Paul +3.22, 13 Durant +3.14, and 14 LeBron +3.01)
Once again, we see a similar story. LeBron has three of the top 6 years of the 98-14 era, and if we don't trust the 97-98 data (Doc, if you can clarify where exactly this comes from and if it is as trustworthy as future years with more of a prior, I'd appreciate that), that moves up to 3 of the top 4 years over the 99-14 period. This includes the vast majority of Shaq, Duncan, and KG's careers, (as well as other elite players like Dirk, Wade, Paul, and Nash), and LeBron just blows them away.

LeBron's best season is .31 standard deviations better than Shaq's best (1.02 without 97-98), .36 better than KG's, and .79 better than Duncan's.

LeBron's second-best season is .45 standard deviations better than Shaq's second-best (.90 without 97-98), .26 better than KG's, and 1.06 better than Duncan's.

LeBron's third-best season is .72 standard deviations better than Shaq's third-best (.75 without 97-98), .37 better than KG's, and .89 better than Duncan's.

LeBron's fourth-best season is .04 standard deviations worse than Shaq's (.16 better without 97-98), .13 worse than KG's, and .37 better than Duncan's.

LeBron's fifth-best season is .01 standard deviations worse than Shaq's (.08 better without 97-98), .21 worse than KG's, and .26 better than Duncan's.

The sum of LeBron's 5 best seasons is 18.93, compared to 18.28 for Garnett, 17.41 for Shaq (16.03 without 97-98), and 15.57 for Duncan.

A few more things to keep in mind:
-Each standard deviation is worth roughly 2.5 points, and we're talking about the most extreme top end of the curve. ElGee has posted his championship odds curve a few times, but what's important is just to remember that it's hyperlinear, with the slope continually increasing as you get higher and higher. The extra point or two that peak and near-peak LeBron is worth compared to even (near)-peak Shaq/KG/Duncan comes at the steepest part of the graph, where even every half point makes a huge difference in championship odds.

-RAPM can be influenced by randomness a fair amount. You'll often see results that don't make intuitive sense, and that's partly because there's a lot of chance involved. Sometimes you play well and your teammates just happen to miss shots when you're on the floor. Since it evaluates the performance of your whole team rather than just your individual stats, an individual player has a much lower degree of control over their results, and it's harder to dominate. Even if someone was far and away the best of their era, you wouldn't expect to see them go down the line and have every top season like LeBron does with box score statistics.

-RAPM is purely per-minute or per-possession. That means there's no bonus given for staying healthy or for playing lots of minutes, which LeBron has done every year of his career, unlike Shaq and Duncan. To go back to ElGee's championship odds graph, this is the very steepest part at the extreme rightmost part of the single highest line on the graph, and for most of the competition seasons, not only are you moving left in terms of impact, you're moving to a lower line in terms of health as well.

-RAPM, like box-score statistics, has no accounting for clutch performance. It only accounts for point differential, and not a player's ability to affect when and where those points come. Usually, that assumption is a safe one. LeBron's penetration might be the single most potent self-created offensive option ever seen, though, and while going to it every time down might wear down his body too much, it allows him to absolutely dominate in the clutch. In several different seasons, we've seen Lebron-led teams play at a level roughly equivalent to a +35-40 MOV team in clutch seasons, with LeBron averaging a statline in the neighborhood of 50-15-10 on .600 TS% per 48 clutch minutes. The numbers simply defy comprehension, but they're yet another indication that a metric like RAPM, or like PER and WS/48 that just looks at how a player impacts point differential is selling LeBron short. He dominates the competition there, and yet he's probably even better than the metric makes him seem.

The one knock about LeBron is in terms of longevity. And yet I get the feeling that the problem is not that he hasn't accomplished enough in his career, but just that he's done it all before age 29, and we feel like there's even more to come. If this was the portfolio of a player whose career was already over and we were looking back on it, though, I don't think we're half as concerned about it. Michael Jordan played 11 full seasons with the Bulls. He won #1 easily, and nobody was even thinking of anyone besides Russell and a couple of Kareem voters over him. Duncan and Shaq didn't get any attention at all. Why? Because Jordan reached a level of dominance over the league where he changed the entire landscape, where the entire championship picture went through him, and no other player was at close to his level. Jordan maintained that level for 8 years or so with three more just below it, compared to about 6 for LeBron with four more just below it, but there's really not a huge difference there. It's enough to knock LeBron out of consideration for #1, sure, but for #5, he should be right there.

Magic and Bird finished at #4 and #6 in 2011, ahead of Shaq and Hakeem. Duncan has added a few post-prime seasons since them, but that was enough for them to surpass the entire careers of the other two. And they've got roughly the same number of total career MP as Lebron, fewer prime years, and a far less dominant peak. They alternated years winning MVPs and generally seemed to be each other's equals for most of their careers. LeBron took players like '09 Wade, Paul, and Kobe, or '13 Durant, and won the MVP over them with 97 - 99% of the vote. He combines Magic and Bird's offensive genius and incredible passing with the efficient volume scoring of a Durant or a Barkley and the defensive ability of a Pippen or Iguodala. I've got LeBron comfortably ahead of Magic and Bird, and they were good enough to be ahead of every other player available last time. I could see an argument being made to move Shaq or Duncan above those two if you value longevity, but nobody would make the argument to move them above Jordan for that reason, and that's closer to the kind of company LeBron is in right now. Nobody else has had a sustained period of unquestioned dominance over the league for more than a couple years, and LeBron's working on 5 or 6 and counting.


That was a mystical post. It reminds me the time to vote Lebron is soon here. But not in a competition with Duncan/Shaq, who have too much longevity for him.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#567 » by acrossthecourt » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:29 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
fpliii wrote:In a runoff, my pick is Tim Duncan. Not the same offensive force as Shaq, but superior consistency rebounding/defending, which is what I need to see from bigs.

Duncan was not a better rebounder.
Defensively sure he had the edge but Shaq was still a very good defensive anchor over his Prime and as others have said I feel his edge offensively was significantly greater then Duncans edge defensively.
Shaq when putting forth max effort could replicate Duncans defensive impact.
Duncan could never replicate Shaqs offensive impact.

Shaq's longevity is underrated, but Duncan gets the edge in terms of post-prime production IMO.

Eh... Duncan entered the league much later then Shaq did.
I wouldn't say he has any edge in longevity.
Duncan has about the same number of quality years and one could argue that Shaq's final quality years were better then Duncan.
Duncan's last two quality years were 13-14 but he wasn't better then Shaq in his final two quality years (05/06).

Point is Duncan has no legit advantage in longevity unless you go by age rather then season which is obviously illogical.

Duncan's a better defensive rebounder by a pretty good margin. Duncan's better in terms of TRB% by about a point. Shaq has an advantage in OREB%, but he plays closer to the basket. Duncan often plays at the top of the key for screens or using his bank shot. And given that he shared a lot of minutes with David Robinson, it's an admirable TRB%. Since defensive rebounding is more important than offensive, at least in my view, and his teams are usually better at rebounding year in and out, I'd say he is a better rebounder with certainty.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#568 » by RayBan-Sematra » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:31 am

Baller2014 wrote:What is this "quality years" stuff? It's bizarre.

No it isn't.
Duncan was a high quality player from 98-10 minus 00 because he couldn't suit up for the playoffs.
That is 12 years.

Shaq was a high quality player from 93-06.
That is 14 years.

Then if we move beyond their best years we have 05-06 for Shaq where he was clearly better then 13-14 Duncan.
Then Duncan has 2014 which is at best only marginally better then Shaq from 07 or 09.

Shaq was an underachiever.

I don't think Shaq ever cost his team a chance to win the title due to poor play on his own part.
So no he did not underachieve.

that's basically the reason Duncan did better over his career with a worse hand.

Duncan having a worse hand is your opinion. It is not a fact.

Duncan had less potent #2's but he had some really deep teams and he got to play out his career under one GOAT coach in a very stable environment.

I have already done a comparison where I put Shaq on Duncan's team and visa-versa and that comparison made it abundantly clear that Shaq would be far more likely to replicate the team success he had during his actual career on Duncan's teams then the other way around.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#569 » by RayBan-Sematra » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:38 am

acrossthecourt wrote:Duncan's a better defensive rebounder by a pretty good margin. Duncan's better in terms of TRB% by about a point. Shaq has an advantage in OREB%, but he plays closer to the basket.


Playoff TRB%

Shaq from 93-04 : 18.5%
Duncan from 98-10 : 18.2%

So Shaq was actually the better rebounder over their best years.
Though Duncan was the better defensive rebounder.
I wouldn't marginalize offensive rebounding. Not sure how I feel about ORB vs DRB.

He then had one down rebounding year in 05 but then bounced back to around 17% after it which is consistent with a post-2010 Duncan.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#570 » by magicmerl » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:39 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
fpliii wrote:In a runoff, my pick is Tim Duncan. Not the same offensive force as Shaq, but superior consistency rebounding/defending, which is what I need to see from bigs.

Duncan was not a better rebounder.
Defensively sure he had the edge but Shaq was still a very good defensive anchor over his Prime and as others have said I feel his edge offensively was significantly greater then Duncans edge defensively.
Shaq when putting forth max effort could replicate Duncans defensive impact.
Duncan could never replicate Shaqs offensive impact.

1. Per100Poss over his career, Duncan averages 17.0, vs 16.1 for Shaq. Duncan is a better rebounder.
2. I agree with you that Shaq was a good defensive anchor, nearly as good as Duncan. I think that the narrative that he was a bad defender was because more of his value came on the offensive end, thus his defense was the lessor of the two.
3. But Shaq couldn't or didn't bring the same defensive impact that Duncan did, so we shouldn't credit him with what he might have done, if he felt like it.
4. Agree on Shaq's offense. Really that's his elite skill that puts him in this conversation.

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
Shaq's longevity is underrated, but Duncan gets the edge in terms of post-prime production IMO.

Eh... Duncan entered the league much later then Shaq did.
I wouldn't say he has any edge in longevity.
Duncan has about the same number of quality years and one could argue that Shaq's final quality years were better then Duncan.
Duncan's last two quality years were 13-14 but he wasn't better then Shaq in his final two quality years (05/06).

Point is Duncan has no legit advantage in longevity unless you go by age rather then season which is obviously illogical.

Duncan entered the league five years later than Shaq, but Shaq was basically finished as a significant contributor on a championship team by 2006. Duncan had some down years, but even his worst year (2014) is on a par with or better than Shaq's last 6 years in the league. If you rank their seasons by WS/48, Shaq had 6 of the bottom 7 seasons.

Looking at WS/48, Shaq peaks when he's 27, then drops off fairly sharply. Duncan peaks at 25 and has a much more gradual decline.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#571 » by Baller2014 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:43 am

I saw that analysis, we debated it, and your premise was wrong. We should have gone with mine, and compared them at the same age. Shaq started a little earlier, sure, but he'll get credit for that in the longevity comparison. Look at Duncan age 36-38. In Shaq's place on those Suns/Cavs/Celtics teams, each of those teams probably wins the title, and that's without comparing the many years with the Lakers/Heat/Magic, where Shaq had a legit superstar on his team (something Duncan probably never had, even in 99 D.Rob was playing 28mpg in the Lakers series and putting up 13-6, hardly a star). Shaq wasn't even the best player on his 4th title team. Some of your anti-Duncan argument even included you claiming "Duncan would beat himself those years". Seriously? That's not an argument. In those years you should be swapping Duncan with that years version of Shaq.

I also tire of 2000 being dismissed, as though Duncan missed the whole year. Duncan's body held up way better than Shaq's, who was always hurt, it's just that Duncan was hurt right before the playoffs. It was only going to keep him out 2-3 weeks, but that 2-3 weeks was obviously very badly timed. The Spurs still debated sending him out to play, but ultimately Pop decided it was too risky. It's not like the Spurs missed a ring that year, the stacked Lakers were always going to be too much for Duncan's undermanned Spurs to handle. To act like 2000 just doesn't count as a year on Duncan's resume seems utterly unobjective, given Shaq often missed way more than 2-3 weeks in years that count.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#572 » by RayBan-Sematra » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:49 am

magicmerl wrote:1. Per100Poss over his career, Duncan averages 17.0, vs 16.1 for Shaq. Duncan is a better rebounder.

Is that a regular-season or a playoff stat because Shaq did have the higher TRB% over his Prime years in the playoffs as I just posted.

2. I agree with you that Shaq was a good defensive anchor, nearly as good as Duncan. I think that the narrative that he was a bad defender was because more of his value came on the offensive end, thus his defense was the lessor of the two.

Completely agree. Shaq was a great defensive anchor and only about one tier below Duncan on that end.
It absolutely baffles me that even with the eye test and pretty much all advanced stats confirming that Shaq was usually having a sizable positive impact on that end throughout his extended Prime some people still view him as a Barkley like defender.

3. But Shaq couldn't or didn't bring the same defensive impact that Duncan did, so we shouldn't credit him with what he might have done, if he felt like it.

Agreed.

Duncan entered the league four years later than Shaq, but Shaq was basically finished as a significant contributor on a championship team by 2006.

True but by then he had already had 14 quality years.
Duncan by 2010 only had 12 under his belt.

Duncan had some down years, but even his worst year (2014) is on a par with or better than Shaq's last 6 years in the league.

Change it to 5 years and I would agree.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#573 » by RayBan-Sematra » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:53 am

Baller2014 wrote:I saw that analysis, we debated it, and your premise was wrong. We should have gone with mine, and compared them at the same age.

I disagree strongly.

Duncan entered the league at the age he did.
Regardless of what year he would hypothetically enter the league he would still be the same age and his career path from rise to peak to decline would take place over the same number of years.

Shaq started a little earlier, sure, but he'll get credit for that in the longevity comparison.

You aren't giving him the credit though by using this illogical age based argument which magically gives Duncan extra quality years which he never had.

I also tire of 2000 being dismissed, as though Duncan missed the whole year. Duncan's body held up way better than Shaq's, who was always hurt, it's just that Duncan was hurt right before the playoffs. It was only going to keep him out 2-3 weeks, but that 2-3 weeks was obviously very badly timed.

Sorry but I can't give a player any credit for a season if he cannot suit up for the playoffs.
Yes it sucks for Duncan and was just horrible timing but that is that. I discount Kobe's 2013 year for the same reason.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#574 » by magicmerl » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:55 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
magicmerl wrote:1. Per100Poss over his career, Duncan averages 17.0, vs 16.1 for Shaq. Duncan is a better rebounder.

Is that a regular-season or a playoff stat because Shaq did have the higher TRB% over his Prime years in the playoffs as I just posted.

Regular season. When in doubt, go for the larger sample size. Looking at the same stat in the playoffs.... They are basically the same (Duncan gets a little worse, a motivated Shaq gets a little better). Maybe this isn't the case of Duncan being a better rebounder, but Shaq taking the regular season off?

RayBan-Sematra wrote:It absolutely baffles me that even with the eye test and pretty much all advanced stats confirming that Shaq was usually having a sizable positive impact on that end throughout his extended Prime some people still view him as a Barkley like defender.

Well, if he can be said to have a defensive weakness, I think it's defending the pick and roll out top. Opposing defenses KNEW that he was never going to show hard on that and it really put the guy getting screened on an island.

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
Duncan entered the league four years later than Shaq, but Shaq was basically finished as a significant contributor on a championship team by 2006.

True but by then he had already had 14 quality years.
Duncan by 2010 only had 12 under his belt.

But Duncan has continued to produce since then. Hence the longevity arguement.

RayBan-Sematra wrote:Sorry but I can't give a player any credit for a season if he cannot suit up for the playoffs.
Yes it sucks for Duncan and was just horrible timing but that is that. I discount Kobe's 2013 year for the same reason.

That doesn't seem fair to me. 2000 looks like a fairly average year for Duncan (i.e. quite a good one). Sure he gets no credit for the playoffs and even if he hadn't been injured I doubt the NBA champion would have changed, but that's quite different from his whole season being a writeoff.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#575 » by Jim Naismith » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:04 am

Baller2014 wrote: It reminds me the time to vote Lebron is soon here. But not in a competition with Duncan/Shaq, who have too much longevity for him.


For you and all the other Shaq/Duncan voters, what does LeBron James have to accomplish to surpass Shaq/Duncan?

1 more MVP? 1 more Finals MVP? If he got both next season, would that be enough?

Or is 5 MVPs and 3 FMVPs still not enough for LeBron to surpass Shaq/Duncan?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#576 » by Baller2014 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:04 am

Spoiler:
RayBan-Sematra wrote:
Baller2014 wrote:I saw that analysis, we debated it, and your premise was wrong. We should have gone with mine, and compared them at the same age.

I disagree strongly.

Duncan entered the league at the age he did.
Regardless of what year he would hypothetically enter the league he would still be the same age and his career path from rise to peak to decline would take place over the same number of years.

Shaq started a little earlier, sure, but he'll get credit for that in the longevity comparison.

You aren't giving him the credit though by using this illogical age based argument which magically gives Duncan extra quality years which he never had.

This is a bizarre argument. Nobody is giving Duncan any extra years. All I'm asking is to compare like for like when you ask "how would Duncan have done in Shaq's place?" So I compare them at the same age. It would be disingenuous for me to compare rookie KG to rookie Shaq too, because KG was an 18 year old HSer. Of course KG gets no credit for his irrelevant years either. Shaq is still rewarded for starting earlier when we compare their longevity (a separate question to "how would Duncan have done in Shaq's situation). You're just resisting this because Duncan wins that separate longevity comparison.

We could do it another way of course. Let's imagine Duncan was drafted in 1997 by the Lakers in Shaq's place. Shaq is now on the Spurs, and Duncan is on the Lakers (and continues to stay on whatever teams Shaq played for from 98 onwards). Duncan is probably looking at 8+ rings. That's not a fair comparison of course, I'm just using it to illustrate how much better Duncan's team mate situation could have been.

Yes it sucks for Duncan and was just horrible timing but that is that. I discount Kobe's 2013 year for the same reason.

I guess you should dismiss Shaq's rookie year too then, since he didn't actually get to play in the playoffs then either. Come on, this is silly.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#577 » by RayBan-Sematra » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:04 am

magicmerl wrote:Maybe this isn't the case of Duncan being a better rebounder, but Shaq taking the regular season off?


Yeah that is how I feel but I don't have a problem with you preferring to look at the larger sample size.
In general though I always felt that rebounding between the two was basically a wash.

Well, if he can be said to have a defensive weakness, I think it's defending the pick and roll out top. Opposing defenses KNEW that he was never going to show hard on that and it really put the guy getting screened on an island.


Yeah he was usually never better then average when it came to defending the PnR though prior to his physical decline I never thought he was super terrible at it or anything. He had the capability to defend those plays decently and in the playoffs especially you could still usually count on him to show up more often then he didn't especially if the screen was being set 15 or less feet away.
Deeper screens he had more trouble with as he didn't like to come so far out onto the perimiter.

But Duncan has continued to produce since then. Hence the longevity arguement.

True but he only had 2-3 good years since 2010 which at most would give him a one year edge in total quality years.
Remember that by 2010 he had 12 quality years to Shaqs 14.

And considering that 07/09 Shaq probably wasn't that far off from 12-14 Duncan the gap is even smaller.
Plus I think 05/06 Shaq was better then 12-13 Duncan which easily outweights the edge in value 14 Duncan had over 09 Shaq.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#578 » by magicmerl » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:06 am

Baller2014 wrote:I guess you should dismiss Shaq's rookie year too then, since he didn't actually get to play in the playoffs then either. Come on, this is silly.

Imagine if making the playoffs was a criteria before your season would be counted as being non-zero. The people promoting Garnett would look pretty silly.

Edit: I think that this 'quality year' thing is a little amorphous. In an attempt to redefine it, I'd like to suggest the replacement as 'years a player was an anchor on a championship calibre team' (regardless of the actual team he was on).

Here's how that looks for Shaq
93 10.4WS No (not good enough)
94 16.9WS Yes
95 14WS Yes
96 6.9WS No (not enough games, not good enough)
97 8WS No (not enough games, not good enough)
98 10.2WS No (not enough games)
99 9WS No (not enough games)
00 18.6WS Yes
01 14.9WS Yes
02 13.2WS Yes
03 13.2WS Yes
04 9.9WS No
05 11WS Yes
06 6.2WS No
07 2.8WS No
08 2.8WS No
09 7.8WS No
10 3.1WS No
11 2.7WS No

And for Duncan
98 12.8WS Yes
99 8.7WS Yes
00 13WS Yes
01 13.2WS Yes
02 17.8WS Yes
03 16.5WS Yes
04 13.1WS Yes
05 11.2WS Yes
06 10.8WS No (not good enough)
07 13WS Yes
08 11.1WS Yes
09 10.1WS Yes
10 10.9WS Yes
11 7.7WS No (not good enough)
12 5.9WS No (not good enough)
13 8.3WS No (not good enough)
14 7.4WS No (not good enough, even though the Spurs actually won)

So that's 7 championship-level years for Shaq, vs 12 championship-level years for Duncan. I find it amusing that Duncan actually won in a year when HE wasn't an MVP-level dominant player. Playing for the Borg is nice.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#579 » by JordansBulls » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:10 am

Baller2014 wrote:Well, the time has passed and it's:
Duncan- 12
Shaq- 12
Magic- 5 (JBulls, Ardee, Clyde, GG Pan, John) - UBF yet to vote officially
Hakeem- 3 (Quo, 90's, Fplii)
Lebron- 2 (Rio, Sacto)
Bird- 1 (Warspite)
KG- 1 (Dr MJ)

Run off time I guess. Anyone want to switch to Duncan now? I think I count 6-8 alternative voters who said they'd preference Duncan, so it looks like he might have this. Right now the winner needs 19 votes.


If the run off is between Duncan and Shaq I chose Duncan for a few reasons. Granted this debate can go either way with these guys, but Tim Duncan did something that is rare.

Vote: Tim Duncan

He led a franchise that never won to multiple titles and didn't have to go to a franchise that won multiple times in order to win.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#580 » by E-Balla » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:12 am

DQuinn1575 wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:
DQuinn1575 wrote:




The trouble I have with Magic that until 1986, when his usage increased, he really is a great point guard, but not a
Spoiler:
Top 10 all-time player.
Compare 84 and 85 to Stockton's 4 best years:


TS%/TRB%/AST%/USG%/DfRtg/WS per season
84-85 Magic 63.3/10.3/42.5/20.0/106 /11.5
88-91 Stockton 61.9/4.4/56.0/19.5/103/14.6




stockton is shooting almost as well, with similar usage, much higher assist, and better defense.

This is a Top 30 player of all-time; not a Top 10.

Magic has 80-85 - 6 years where he is at this level, and then 6 years where he shows as Top 10.



TS%/TRB%/AST%/USG%/DfRtg/WS per season

88-91 Stockton 61.9/4.4/56.0/19.5/103/14.6
80-85 Magic 60.8/11.9/34.6/103/12.1


He wasn't 1st team all-NBA by either the writers (official) or players (Sporting News) until 1983.

From 1983-85 he was solid Top 5 player in the league, but in the 3 years combined he got 8 first place votes for MVP-

Besides Bird definitely being better, guys like Moses, Doctor J, and Bernard King would have a case - so Magic is 2-5 in this top period.

Win shares for this time shows him 4th, behind Bird, sidney Moncrief, and Moses

http://bkref.com/tiny/9CJjD

for his first 6 years, he is 5th, trailing Bird,Moses,Kareem, and Doc, barely beating out Moncrief.
He is way behind Bird for his first 6 years in the league. Relatively same for 3, then has 3 seasons better.


http://bkref.com/tiny/WyVZL



So with Magic I get 6 years of Stockton/Moncrief, and 6 years of superstar.

It makes me put him behind Bird, LeBron, and Shaq.

Well Magic wasn't the starting point back then. They had Nixon who was a good PG having 8-9apg seasons. Of course Magic looked worse when he didn't have the ball as the lead point.


I'm not clear what your point is.
Since he wasnt point guard a few year those numbers are Top 10?[/quote]
No I was explaining why he didn't have top ten numbers. Its because he wasn't a PG (along with him being the second option). Magic could've consistently been a 19/10/10 guy or a 24/6/12 guy. That's his top trait, that versatility.

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