RealGM Top 100 List #6

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#81 » by acrossthecourt » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:52 pm

If we're going to use that silly "win a title without another star" argument, like that's the best way to evaluate teams, and it isn't, then we're going to have to add 2013 LeBron.

His two best players:
-Wade had a sub-50 TS% and was so bad he actually became a liability and the other teams began hiding bad defenders on him (Lowe pointed this out.)
-Bosh averaged 12/7 and had problems guarding Hibbert. That does not look like superstar help to me.

The Heat's second best player was almost Chris Andersen, but he only played 15 minutes a game.

So yes, I submit that LeBron belongs in this group of one-man title teams. And just remember how he lifted those Cleveland teams:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebr ... ah-better/

However, I really hate RealGM's obsession with title winners without any all-stars. It's to basketball evaluation as stick figures are to classical art. We all know that you can win with deep, balanced teams. From the '77 Blazers to the Pistons (of both eras) back to the late 90's Blazers, you don't need a bunch of stars crammed onto a roster. It's about the whole.

Here's the best example: the '94 Rockets were a lot better than the '95 Rockets despite ADDING a star. Shouldn't that prove how silly it is to revere players for winning on "limited" teams?

Plus, winning a title has a lot to do with luck and circumstance.

In fact, I wrote something on this very issue earlier....

Spoiler:
We shouldn’t be flummoxed at the success of a team without a superstar (or one in his prime at least.) Stars don’t make the team; the players do.

Ten years ago, a star-studded Lakers team — not too far from three straight titles — led by a Hall of Fame coach and two of the best players in the game aided by two aging stars who were Hall of Fame locks met an upstart from Detroit, one who only had two players with All-Star berths. Detroit’s all-stars were Ben Wallace — helped immensely by the demise of the center position in the east, and Rasheed Wallace — who had turned into more of a role player. Detroit had no player over 18 points per game, and no player had ever averaged 20 points per game. Conversely, both Shaq and Kobe averaged 20 plus, and, of course, they’re two of the top scorers all-time. Including Karl Malone, and they have three of the top six scorers in NBA history by total career points. With Gary Payton they had four guys with 20,000 career points.

Detroit dispatched them unceremoniously in five games. It didn’t matter that Kobe and Shaq were better than anyone on the Pistons. Detroit’s starting five was, as a whole, simply better.

The NBA has seen this before.

For years, actually, people assumed alpha scorers held teams back from titles. The 1970′s were a run of well-balanced teams taking championships, like the Halvicek-Cowens Boston Celtics or Washington Bullets, who won a title with a Finals MVP under ten points a game, and the 1980′s were dominated by two deep teams with stars who were amazing passers in Magic and Bird. There was a 20-year span in which the league’s leading scorer won a title — from Kareem in 1971 to Jordan in 1991.

One of the most famous championship runs was Portland in 1977. It was a chaotic year — the one after the ABA merger — and the parity was high: only three teams at 50 wins and the highest was 53. The prize of the merger was Dr. J, an electric player who was the superstar yin to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s yang. Julius Erving joined other stars in Philadelphia, flanking George McGinnis, World B. Free, Kobe Bryant’s father Joe Bryant, Henry Bibby (another father of an NBA player), Doug Collins (yes, him) scoring 18 a game, and even the rookie Darryl “Chocolate Thunder” Dawkins. Expectations were higher for the star-studded team.

Portland, by contrast, was a well-balanced team led by a player known for his defense, hustle, and passing from the high post. Over 38% of Philadelphia’s points in the regular season came from two players, and that figure jumped to 64% with the top four. Portland, however, had shares of 31% and 53%, respectively. Walton, like Duncan, was a prize draft pick and a classic high character guy steeped in the fundamentals of the game, not the flash. They were led by a fantastic, forward-thinking coach, and attacked hard in transition and emphasized ball movement. The second best player was Maurice Lucas, an unassuming and workmanlike power forward. Portland even defeated MVP Abdul-Jabbar in the playoffs — a true legend, the best of the best, and in his prime.

Philadelphia had the star power, but Portland was, quite simply, a better team. Portland had the superior point differential, and they did this with Walton missing a few games. With him, they were on a 55-win pace.

We see the Miami Heat and the awe-inspiring LeBron James, a physical specimen like Dr. J was, and we see the perennial All-Stars Wade and Bosh — never mind that Wade is but a a shadow of his former self. We fill in the rest of the team as mere “role players” and assume the team is tremendous. The Spurs are led by old Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili (or Kawhi Leonard for the third wheel), so we assume they’re the weaker team. But people underrate the importance of the non-stars on a team. The Heat have had to start guys like the plodding Rashard Lewis, the ghost of Shane Battier, and the limited Udonis Haslem in important games. The Spurs bring Ginobili and Boris Diaw off the bench.

The difference between role players is subtle, but it’s lost on people. It’s too nuanced, and with a group of 5 to 8 role players the collective value accumulates to something very powerful. You could see it with Portland this season. They swapped out J.J. Hickson and Robin Lopez, and had a breakout season. For most fans the difference between Hickson and Lopez is negligible, but it’s clearly not.

There’s no universal law that you need a superstar to be the best team in the league. Never mind how difficult it can be to determine the best players, all that matters is that your team outscores the opposing team.

You don’t need a superstar in his prime to win a championship. There are many different paths to victory, some more obvious than others.

A fun way to illustrate this is to build elite teams without a top 20 player. Using Win Shares and not selecting any player in the top team in Win Shares per minute (minimum of a 1000 minutes), I built a team below that with a realistic minutes distribution would equate to 60 wins (and this includes 680 minutes given to low-level bench warmers rated much worse.)

Player WS/48 Minutes
Mike Conley 0.161 2400
Wesley Matthews 0.142 2600
Trevor Ariza 0.141 2600
Serge Ibaka 0.173 2600
Tiago Splitter 0.163 1900
Isaiah Thomas 0.149 1500
DeMar DeRozan 0.141 1800
Mike Dunleavy 0.121 1000
Josh McRoberts 0.132 1000
Marcin Gortat 0.146 1600

There’s no real star power here, but it would be a top-tier defense with some scoring punch off the bench. You don’t need an MVP-level player to reach 60 wins if you fill in the rest of the team with quality players.

If you don’t like that method, we can use Gotbucket’s RAPM – a metric that relies on no box score stats except for how well a player’s team outscores the other team when he’s on the court.

Sticking to everyone rated below 20 again, you can build a 60 win team without any superstar talent but instead with a wealth of quality depth. (RAPM is in terms of scoring margin, so if five players were +2 you’d except that team to outscore an average opponent by 10 points a game, roughly, on a neutral court.)

Player RAPM Minutes
Goran Dragic 2.62 2700
Danny Green 1.64 2400
Kawhi Leonard 1.87 2400
Channing Frye 1.33 2300
Nikola Pekovic 1.27 2000
Ty Lawson 2.65 1900
Matt Barnes 1.53 1100
Draymond Green 0.87 1500
Jason Thompson 1.61 1100
Pero Antic 0.41 1500

Losing to San Antonio is not be a black mark on LeBron’s legacy. It’s a a loss to a team who won more games and had a larger point differential.

There are rumors and extended discussions on Carmelo Anthony joining the Heat, as if LeBron can’t get it done without multiple stars. But that’s not the problem. It’s how you fill in the rest of the team. After losing Mike Miller and watching players succumb to Father Time, their supporting players are lacking. LeBron needs help, but not superstar help.

There are other ways to win.

http://analyticsgame.com/nba/star-inter ... teams.html


You don't need two +6 players if you have a bunch of +2 or 0 (average) players surrounding your superstar. It's simple math.

ElGee wrote:This leaves me with Bird still ahead of Magic -- I'm comfortable with that valuation. It also makes it impossible for me to argue for either of these players over Karl Malone based on career. Finally, I'll add that while I give Magic the benefit of the doubt in light of concerning evidence (e.g. LA being awesome offensively, weak team numbers, etc.), I'm simply more confident in my valuation of Bird.


I always wondered why people assumed Magic was over Bird. I think it's because Magic was a better player at the end and won more titles. But Bird was indeed better first, and for a while. I've brought up MVP shares before, but it is interesting Bird has more than Magic. In any case, I do think they're close.

Shaq didn't rank higher than Magic last time. So what's changed?


I don't know how many of you remember watching the Timberwolves in 2002.


I do and it's why Garnett has always been one of my favorite players. I do remember Garnett at the top of the court on zones. He was a terrifying defender. I think people assume Garnett backers are plus/minus "hipster" backers, but honestly I've thought he was underrated for a very long time and comparable to Duncan.

It's quite amazing how bad Minnesota was as a franchise. It took a lot to keep such a great player down. They lost first round picks so they could pay Joe Smith. What a well-run machine.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#82 » by Mutnt » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:54 pm

I thought Magic over Bird was clear-cut, I'm not sure anymore... Anyone else feels the same?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#83 » by Purch » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:54 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
batmana wrote:My vote for the No. 6 (may be the easiest since Jordan) is Shaquille O'Neal.

If we were voting actual best players instead of greatest (where titles and legacies count a lot), I'd have Shaq firmly at No. 2 behind Jordan.

He was the most dominant center (and player) in the league throughout his prime. He won three straight titles during his absolute prime and was a monster in the Finals (I won't be posting the numbers again but like another poster mentioned, he didn't have a single bad GAME in those series). He won an additional title after his prime in Miami where he was arguably their 2nd most important player even though his role was diminished in the Finals. He was unstoppable offensively to the point where the best move against him would be to foul him. He fouled out entire frontlines and hack-a-Shaq was used most excessively on him to slow him down, not as much to disrupt the Lakers' offense (whereas hack-a-Howard is currently used to slow down Houston offensively and play with his head). Shaq had a significant impact on defense as well even though he didn't give 100% on that end in multiple seasons. Still, his dominance and GOAT-level peak is good enough for this spot.

IMO, his competition here is Magic, Bird and LeBron. I don't see Hakeem's case against those as compelling enough. I think Shaq beats all of them in peak and dominance and that's the bottomline for me.


Where does it say that we are voting greatest and not best?


This is extremely troubling to me that people are not actually voting for the players that they do not feel are the best. What's the point of this list then?


I assume it's how you define "greatest".

If it was simply who was most efficient on the court than wouldn't this be the same as an all time peak rating?

I'm pretty sure most people would have Shaq right behind Jordan if it was simply about how dominant you were on the court
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#84 » by ardee » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:57 pm

MacGill wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Well, that could just means that he thinks Kobe is the best symbol for the Lakers, not that he is necessarily better than Magic Johnson.


Yes, I guarantee that will be the response.

Ok, so question for all. Excluding Shaq, as he's been talked to death already and not making the notion that he's slotted for this pick where do each of you rank the following players against each other? Feel free to add anyone else into the mix but these are who I am seeing getting some traction in the past and current threads.

Magic
Bird
Hakeem
KG
Dirk
Kobe


I'm glad you mentioned Dirk...

I don't understand why KG is getting talk this guy and someone who's considered neck and neck with him on this forum is not.

I rank those guys:

Magic
LeBron
Bird
Kobe
Hakeem
Dirk
KG

I think Oscar and West are being underrated here. West in particular, he's one of the greatest Playoff performers ever and many people have him in their top 10. Those guys should at least be discussed with KG and Dirk, if not higher.


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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#85 » by microfib4thewin » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:03 pm

MacGill wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Well, that could just means that he thinks Kobe is the best symbol for the Lakers, not that he is necessarily better than Magic Johnson.


Yes, I guarantee that will be the response.

Ok, so question for all. Excluding Shaq, as he's been talked to death already and not making the notion that he's slotted for this pick where do each of you rank the following players against each other? Feel free to add anyone else into the mix but these are who I am seeing getting some traction in the past and current threads.

Magic
Bird
Hakeem
KG
Dirk
Kobe


At the moment, I have them at:

Bird
Magic
Hakeem

KG
Kobe
Dirk

And it's very close between the players from their own group.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#86 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:06 pm

Purch wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
batmana wrote:My vote for the No. 6 (may be the easiest since Jordan) is Shaquille O'Neal.

If we were voting actual best players instead of greatest (where titles and legacies count a lot), I'd have Shaq firmly at No. 2 behind Jordan.

He was the most dominant center (and player) in the league throughout his prime. He won three straight titles during his absolute prime and was a monster in the Finals (I won't be posting the numbers again but like another poster mentioned, he didn't have a single bad GAME in those series). He won an additional title after his prime in Miami where he was arguably their 2nd most important player even though his role was diminished in the Finals. He was unstoppable offensively to the point where the best move against him would be to foul him. He fouled out entire frontlines and hack-a-Shaq was used most excessively on him to slow him down, not as much to disrupt the Lakers' offense (whereas hack-a-Howard is currently used to slow down Houston offensively and play with his head). Shaq had a significant impact on defense as well even though he didn't give 100% on that end in multiple seasons. Still, his dominance and GOAT-level peak is good enough for this spot.

IMO, his competition here is Magic, Bird and LeBron. I don't see Hakeem's case against those as compelling enough. I think Shaq beats all of them in peak and dominance and that's the bottomline for me.


Where does it say that we are voting greatest and not best?


This is extremely troubling to me that people are not actually voting for the players that they do not feel are the best. What's the point of this list then?


I assume it's how you define "greatest".

If it was simply who was most efficient on the court than wouldn't this be the same as an all time peak rating?

I'm pretty sure most people would have Shaq right behind Jordan if it was simply about how dominant you were on the court


No, it's not. You can rate someone based on peak or longevity, and still consider them to be better than others. People should be rating these guys on impact, I realize there is no criteria listed, but it still makes little sense to rank someone who you think is worse than another individual because...they're more famous or praised.

So again, where does it say this is a top 100 greatest list? I have serious problems that people are ranking guys over each other for arbitrary reasons. Might as well just cite ESPN's top 100 or some garbage like that.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#87 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:11 pm

ElGee wrote:Do you do a year-by-year breakdown to arrive at career value? If so, can you post your assessment of Shaq v Kobe? Thanks.

Don't think I've done year by year. but that's an interesting idea. This project moves so fast though I'm not sure I could do it justice before both players are gone.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#88 » by Quotatious » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:13 pm

ardee wrote:I think Oscar and West are being underrated here. West in particular, he's one of the greatest Playoff performers ever and many people have him in their top 10. Those guys should at least be discussed with KG and Dirk, if not higher.

Who has West as a top 10 player? :o I don't recall seeing anyone on RealGM ranking him that high, and very sporadically outside of it. Mostly old timers, guys who remember seeing him live back in the 60s, but other than that, basically nobody.

I've frequently seen Oscar as a top 10 player, but West? Not really. I'd like it if you answered this question, as West is probably my favorite legend (speaking of players I didn't have a chance to see live - along with Dr. J). I don't really see a case for him.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#89 » by Basketballefan » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:18 pm

ardee wrote:
MacGill wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Well, that could just means that he thinks Kobe is the best symbol for the Lakers, not that he is necessarily better than Magic Johnson.


Yes, I guarantee that will be the response.

Ok, so question for all. Excluding Shaq, as he's been talked to death already and not making the notion that he's slotted for this pick where do each of you rank the following players against each other? Feel free to add anyone else into the mix but these are who I am seeing getting some traction in the past and current threads.

Magic
Bird
Hakeem
KG
Dirk
Kobe


I'm glad you mentioned Dirk...

I don't understand why KG is getting talk this guy and someone who's considered neck and neck with him on this forum is not.

I rank those guys:

Magic
LeBron
Bird
Kobe
Hakeem
Dirk
KG

I think Oscar and West are being underrated here. West in particular, he's one of the greatest Playoff performers ever and many people have him in their top 10. Those guys should at least be discussed with KG and Dirk, if not higher.


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I agree, I don't even see the case for Dirk or KG over Oscar. West certainly gets underrated, i think it's despicable for him to not be a consensus top 15.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#90 » by Basketballefan » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:20 pm

Quotatious wrote:
ardee wrote:I think Oscar and West are being underrated here. West in particular, he's one of the greatest Playoff performers ever and many people have him in their top 10. Those guys should at least be discussed with KG and Dirk, if not higher.

Who has West as a top 10 player? :o I don't recall seeing anyone on RealGM ranking him that high, and very sporadically outside of it. Mostly old timers, guys who remember seeing him live back in the 60s, but other than that, basically nobody.

I've frequently seen Oscar as a top 10 player, but West? Not really. I'd like it if you answered this question, as West is probably my favorite legend (speaking of players I didn't have a chance to see live - along with Dr. J). I don't really see a case for him.

I think he meant that many don't have West top 10.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#91 » by Owly » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:30 pm

The votes so far (by my count, will swiftly if not already be out of date):

Shaquille O'Neal: 9; colt0s18 (post 5) therealbig3 (45) MacGill (51) Narigo (54) batmana (56) ronnymac2 (58) DQuinn1575 (70) penbeast0 (Vote subject to change ... Shaq) (48) HeartBreakKid ("for now I am going to vote for Shaquille O'Neal") (25)
two of the 9 are tentative, and one which may be require additional reasoning (don't know but DQuinn1575's post is recent so may not have been subject to mod scrutiny and has three lines of reasoning. Not saying it should or shouldn't count just that it might not)

Earvin "Magic" Johnson: 3; Basketballefan (post 19) andrewww (39) Baller2014 (52)

Hakeem Olajuwon: 2 fpliii (post 2) 90sAllDecade (10)
also markdeez33 (46) vote not counted, no discussion

LeBron James trex_8063 (tentative) (post 62)

People have made the cases for the above and for Garnett.

Quotatious wrote:
ardee wrote:I think Oscar and West are being underrated here. West in particular, he's one of the greatest Playoff performers ever and many people have him in their top 10. Those guys should at least be discussed with KG and Dirk, if not higher.

Who has West as a top 10 player? :o I don't recall seeing anyone on RealGM ranking him that high, and very sporadically outside of it. Mostly old timers, guys who remember seeing him live back in the 60s, but other than that, basically nobody.

I've frequently seen Oscar as a top 10 player, but West? Not really. I'd like it if you answered this question, as West is probably my favorite legend (speaking of players I didn't have a chance to see live - along with Dr. J). I don't really see a case for him.

Not a for or against, just where West's stock has been on published lists.
From '88 upto 2003 he had been in the 7-9 range in 7 of 8 published lists (Basketball Digest in '99 placed him 12th). Since then: In 2003 he was ranked 8th by Slam, 12th by Elliot Kalb
in 2004 he was ranked 17th by Lacy Banks, and in 2005 joint 16th by Keith Thompson. Since then he's fared well placing 10th in Slam in 2009, 8th in the first edition of Bill Simmons' The Book of Basketball ('09), dropping to 9th in the paperback ('10) (Kobe made a leap from 15th to 8th), Beckett put him 10th in 2010; Slam 11th in 2011 and Pat Williams 10th in 2012.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#92 » by SactoKingsFan » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:31 pm

For me the # 6 spot is between LeBron and Shaq. They have the best combination of peak, prime and physical dominance. Kobe isn't even on my radar right now. Kobe only has the edge in longevity, but both LeBron and Shaq were more physically dominant and had significantly better peaks. LeBron's top 4-5 seasons (08, 09, 10, 12, 13) are better than Kobe's best seasons (03, 08, 09), therefore, I don't think Kobe's edge in longevity is enough to rank him ahead of LeBron.

I'm leaning towards LeBron over Shaq since he has the better peak and more versatile skill set. LeBron's top 3 ASPM seasons (09, 10, 13) are all better than Shaq's top ASPM season (00).

I'll add more details when I'm at a computer.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#93 » by Gregoire » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:35 pm

I vote Hakeem here. Comparable or better 1, 2, 3year peak with each of guys left in the discussion. Most well-balanced guy left in the discussion considering offense+ defense. Only player left who could be elite offensive and elite defensive anchor. Played in the toughest are along with GOAT and many others superstars. Was very mentally tough, didnt fear anybody. Unique skillset and very portable and versatile player.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#94 » by Quotatious » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:38 pm

Owly wrote:Not a for or against, just where West's stock has been on published lists.
From '88 upto 2003 he had been in the 7-9 range in 7 of 8 published lists (Basketball Digest in '99 placed him 12th). Since then: In 2003 he was ranked 8th by Slam, 12th by Elliot Kalb
in 2004 he was ranked 17th by Lacy Banks, and in 2005 joint 16th by Keith Thompson. Since then he's fared well placing 10th in Slam in 2009, 8th in the first edition of Bill Simmons' The Book of Basketball ('09), dropping to 9th in the paperback ('10) (Kobe made a leap from 15th to 8th), Beckett put him 10th in 2010; Slam 11th in 2011 and Pat Williams 10th in 2012.

I'm aware of most of these rankings, but many are outdated because Duncan, Kobe, LeBron and even Shaq ("even" because Shaq's legacy was basically already defined in the mid 2000s) were in their primes during the 2000s, and I think that most people rank all of these guys ahead of West right now.

In the late 90s/early 2000s, he was commonly accepted as a top 10 player (usually around 8th), but not anymore.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#95 » by ardee » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:40 pm

Quotatious wrote:
ardee wrote:I think Oscar and West are being underrated here. West in particular, he's one of the greatest Playoff performers ever and many people have him in their top 10. Those guys should at least be discussed with KG and Dirk, if not higher.

Who has West as a top 10 player? :o I don't recall seeing anyone on RealGM ranking him that high, and very sporadically outside of it. Mostly old timers, guys who remember seeing him live back in the 60s, but other than that, basically nobody.

I've frequently seen Oscar as a top 10 player, but West? Not really. I'd like it if you answered this question, as West is probably my favorite legend (speaking of players I didn't have a chance to see live - along with Dr. J). I don't really see a case for him.


Not talking about RealGM, I mean general ATLs you see from writers and other people.

And I personally see a good case for it. He was the second most efficient 60s player besides Wilt, second best rebounding guard behind Oscar, basically ran the offense for the Lakers even if you consider him an SG, best defensive guard of the era besides Hondo, put up monster Playoff numbers every year... He's considered neck and neck with Oscar, and if Oscar has a case for top 10 shouldn't he too?

I have him at 12, right behind Hakeem.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#96 » by Quotatious » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:45 pm

ardee wrote:Not talking about RealGM, I mean general ATLs you see from writers and other people.

And I personally see a good case for it. He was the second most efficient 60s player besides Wilt, second best rebounding guard behind Oscar, basically ran the offense for the Lakers even if you consider him an SG, best defensive guard of the era besides Hondo, put up monster Playoff numbers every year... He's considered neck and neck with Oscar, and if Oscar has a case for top 10 shouldn't he too?

I have him at 12, right behind Hakeem.

I think he's very comparable to Kobe, KG, Dirk, Dr. J and Oscar, but I generally rank him last in this group (16th), because for me, the other guys have a more compelling case (and for instance he has the worst longevity, clearly below KG, Dr. J or Oscar in terms of peak, doesn't separate himself from the others based on prime etc. ).

My impression is that Oscar is generally regarded as the better player - they're close, but Robertson comes out on top in vast majority of lists. Even Jerry himself admitted that.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#97 » by MacGill » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:46 pm

ardee wrote:
Quotatious wrote:
ardee wrote:I think Oscar and West are being underrated here. West in particular, he's one of the greatest Playoff performers ever and many people have him in their top 10. Those guys should at least be discussed with KG and Dirk, if not higher.

Who has West as a top 10 player? :o I don't recall seeing anyone on RealGM ranking him that high, and very sporadically outside of it. Mostly old timers, guys who remember seeing him live back in the 60s, but other than that, basically nobody.

I've frequently seen Oscar as a top 10 player, but West? Not really. I'd like it if you answered this question, as West is probably my favorite legend (speaking of players I didn't have a chance to see live - along with Dr. J). I don't really see a case for him.


Not talking about RealGM, I mean general ATLs you see from writers and other people.

And I personally see a good case for it. He was the second most efficient 60s player besides Wilt, second best rebounding guard behind Oscar, basically ran the offense for the Lakers even if you consider him an SG, best defensive guard of the era besides Hondo, put up monster Playoff numbers every year... He's considered neck and neck with Oscar, and if Oscar has a case for top 10 shouldn't he too?

I have him at 12, right behind Hakeem.


Ardee, (and I mean this in a respectful tone :) ) what's your reasoning for Hakeem being so low on your list? (And note I am fine with the ranking as it's your list).

But from what I have seen you value - I would think he was a shoe-in for top 10.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#98 » by MacGill » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:47 pm

Quotatious wrote:
ardee wrote:Not talking about RealGM, I mean general ATLs you see from writers and other people.

And I personally see a good case for it. He was the second most efficient 60s player besides Wilt, second best rebounding guard behind Oscar, basically ran the offense for the Lakers even if you consider him an SG, best defensive guard of the era besides Hondo, put up monster Playoff numbers every year... He's considered neck and neck with Oscar, and if Oscar has a case for top 10 shouldn't he too?

I have him at 12, right behind Hakeem.

I think he's very comparable to Kobe, KG, Dirk, Dr. J and Oscar, but I generally rank him last in this group (16th), because for me, the other guys have a more compelling case (and for instance he has the worst longevity, clearly below KG, Dr. J or Oscar in terms of peak, doesn't separate himself from the others based on prime etc. ).

My impression is that Oscar is generally regarded as the better player - they're close, but Robertson comes out on top in vast majority of lists. Even Jerry himself admitted that.


The footage I have watched of West....man was his stroke sweet. Free throw, jumper...hand in face. Dude could flat out shoot from anywhere. Still has his touch, even today.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#99 » by Quotatious » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:49 pm

MacGill wrote:Ardee, (and I mean this in a respectful tone :) ) what's your reasoning for Hakeem being so low on your list? (And note I am fine with the ranking as it's your list).

But for what I have seen you value - I would think he was a shoe-in for top 10.

Yeah, honestly I can't see Hakeem not being a top 10 player, but ardee has frequently been vocal about Hakeem's career not being as consistent as the other top 10-ish players, in other words his peak seasons in the mid 90s being clearly better than the rest of his career (that's a notion that I disagree with, and often spoke about it here).

And yeah, West's pull-up jumper was ridiculous, and by all accounts, he was a very complete all-around player as well (I don't really see a problem with supposed lack of ballhandling ability with his left hand - to me, he just used his right a lot more because he felt more comfortable with it, and it was enough against the 60s defenses to mostly be a right handed player - I don't buy that a player of West's talent wouldn't be able to adjust and use his left more if he had to).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6 

Post#100 » by ardee » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:55 pm

MacGill wrote:
ardee wrote:
Quotatious wrote:Who has West as a top 10 player? :o I don't recall seeing anyone on RealGM ranking him that high, and very sporadically outside of it. Mostly old timers, guys who remember seeing him live back in the 60s, but other than that, basically nobody.

I've frequently seen Oscar as a top 10 player, but West? Not really. I'd like it if you answered this question, as West is probably my favorite legend (speaking of players I didn't have a chance to see live - along with Dr. J). I don't really see a case for him.


Not talking about RealGM, I mean general ATLs you see from writers and other people.

And I personally see a good case for it. He was the second most efficient 60s player besides Wilt, second best rebounding guard behind Oscar, basically ran the offense for the Lakers even if you consider him an SG, best defensive guard of the era besides Hondo, put up monster Playoff numbers every year... He's considered neck and neck with Oscar, and if Oscar has a case for top 10 shouldn't he too?

I have him at 12, right behind Hakeem.


Ardee, (and I mean this in a respectful tone :) ) what's your reasoning for Hakeem being so low on your list? (And note I am fine with the ranking as it's your list).

But for what I have seen you value - I would think he was a shoe-in for top 10.


I think of my top 11 as other people think of their top 10. People see 10 as their imaginary bench mark, for me it's 11.

Hakeem has a top 3-5 peak, that's for sure. '93-'95 are better than anyone's best 3 year stretch except Wilt, Jordan, Shaq and maybe LeBron/Bird.

But when I look at the rest of his career, I just don't see the same value. He put up great numbers from '86-'92 but he was a worse offensive and defensive player. His offensive game lacked the polish that Tomjanovich helped with, he was a face-up player not unlike David Robinson (and we all know how much this board rags on David for relying so heavily on his faceup game). This showed in the Playoffs... '89, '90, '91, he just wasn't the dominant force you associate with Hakeem. Maybe this was because of the implosion of the Rockets with Sampson's injuries and the drug problems they had, I don't know.

And it shows doesn't it? He's only ever finished top 3 in MVP voting twice. I know people hate awards here but if a guy was never really considered to be on par with the other greats of the time until he noticeably improved his game, it might say something.

And honestly I'm splitting hairs here... Like I said, 11 is as good as 10 for me. He's a great player nonetheless, but with the other greats someone has to fall to the bottom. I just can't rank a guy who was truly among the league's best players for only 3 years of his career over guys who were in the discussion for much longer, ala Bird, Magic, LeBron, Kobe, Shaq, etc.

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