RealGM Top 100 List #7

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magicmerl
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#61 » by magicmerl » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:28 am

andrewww wrote:I won`t dispute the RS dominance by LeBron as I`m in agreement with most here that he may have been the best player ever when it comes to `carrying`teams that were generally inferior in talent as long as the floor was spaced with 3pt shooters which is always the style has has worked best from LeBron.

The post I did before showed Magic and LeBron in a *very* even battle during the regular season in their respective careers.
Spoiler:
magicmerl wrote:This pick for me is LeBron vs Magic. Both players have already had a lot of discussion in previous threads, so I'm unsure how much to regurgitate here. As a quick recap, both players have careers of similar lengths, and although LeBron is almost certain to continue playing at a superstar level for years to come, we can't give him credit for his future production yet, just like we can't give magic any credit for what he *might* have done for the lakers if he hadn't been forced to retire prematurely due to HIV.

The first 5 years: growth
Both players had a 'growth' period of about 5 years before they fully became 'the man' in the league.
LeBron 04-08 35.3PTS 8.9REB 8.5AST 2.3STL 1.0BLK 4.3TOV 2.7PF
Magic. 80-84 22.5PTS 10.4REB 12.2AST 3.1STL 0.7BLK 4.9TOV 3.3PF

LeBron 04-08 .548TS% 31.2USG% 112ORtg 103DRtg 42.8OWS 21.7DWS 64.6WS .193WS/48
Magic. 80-84 .601TS% 20.4USG% 117ORtg 102DRtg 33.5OWS 19.0DWS 52.5WS .200WS/48
Look at the difference in USG%. LeBron is clearly doing the heavy lifting for his team, and that's reflected in his higher win shares. Magic has wonderful AST/REB/STL numbers, and great efficiency, but that's partly a reflection that he's still playing on Kareem's team. Their WS/48 is basically a wash.

The next six years: Prime
(I'm going to pretend that magic's 1996 comeback didn't happen. Not that he was hot garbage, but he didn't realy help his team in terms of championships at all. he was more of a sideshow/distraction than anything)
LeBron 09-14 38.5PTS 10.4REB 9.9AST 2.3STL 1.1BLK 4.6TOV 2.3PF
Magic. 85-91 27.2PTS 8.7REB 16.2AST 2.1STL 0.4BLK 5.1TOV 2.7PF

LeBron 09-14 .613TS% 32.0USG% 120ORtg 101DRtg 74.2OWS 29.8DWS 104.0WS .290WS/48
Magic. 85-91 .614TS% 23.5USG% 123ORtg 106DRtg 74.5OWS 25.2DWS 99.6WS .243WS/48

Ok, so things to note as each player hits their prime: Both players generally get better across the board. Magic's rebounding numbers drop, while his assist numbers go through the roof. He gets better on offense but worse on defense. Magic's USG% is surprisingly low for what is presumably a ball dominant superstar.

LeBron finally has a good supporting cast around him in his prime, and improves both on offense and defense.

There's really not too much difference between the players themselves, other than that Magic's offensive contribution is more often an assist, while LeBron dials his own number to finish at the rim.

Here's the same breakdown for the playoffs:

Playoffs, The first 5 years: growth
LeBron 06-08 34.6PTS 10.0REB 9.1AST 2.0STL 1.0BLK 5.1TOV 3.2PF
Magic. 80-84 20.7PTS 10.6REB 13.0AST 2.9STL 0.7BLK 4.4TOV 3.9PF

LeBron 06-08 .531TS% 32.2USG% 108ORtg 101DRtg 4.1OWS 3.5DWS 7.6WS .177WS/48
Magic. 80-84 .583TS% 19.0USG% 118ORtg 104DRtg 7.4OWS 3.9DWS 11.3WS .191WS/48

So compared to the regular season, we see Magic's scoring and rebounding go down, while LeBron increases both rebounding and assists. Both players increase their TS%, again to be on a par with each other. Magic's USG% drops down below that of an average starter. Magic has a huge raw win shares edge, since LeBron failed to make the playoffs for a couple of years, but he also has a higher WS/48 as well.

Playoffs, The next six years: Prime
LeBron 09-14 37.1PTS 11.3REB 8.1AST 2.3STL 1.2BLK 4.2TOV 2.9PF
Magic. 85-91 25.9PTS 8.6REB 16.6AST 2.0STL 0.2BLK 4.5TOV 3.1PF

LeBron 09-14 .599TS% 31.1USG% 119ORtg 102DRtg 18.9OWS 7.4DWS 26.3WS .270WS/48
Magic. 85-91 .601TS% 22.6USG% 124ORtg 109DRtg 15.4OWS 5.5DWS 20.9WS .219WS/48

I think that LeBron really puts some separation between himself and Magic when you compare them with each other in the playoffs in their prime. Both have an equivalent offensive efficiency, but LeBron is just better than magic at everything except assists (and ORtg, which is partly based on assists).

Ironically, where LeBron did the heavy lifting (relative to Magic) for his early Cleveland teams in the regular season, it was really in the playoffs that he looks better in his prime. That's an unbelievable WS/48 for LeBron's prime years.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#62 » by rico381 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:28 am

andrewww wrote:
rico381 wrote:I am once again voting for LeBron James.

I've made the case for him in detail before, and I've copied it with slight edits inside spoiler tags here:
Spoiler:
The most impressive thing to me about LeBron is his peak-level performance. LeBron's an incredibly tough guy to pin down in terms of a one-year peak; partly because his game has evolved as he's had different situations around him, and partly because he's got more truly historically great seasons than anyone else still on the board. This recent thread asked people to rank LeBron's 5 best seasons (09, 10, 12-14), and there wasn't a huge consensus. Most had 09, 12, and 13 as the top 3 in some order and 10 and 14 below, but all five are all-timers in their own right. Just looking at the worst of those, in 2010 he averaged 29.7-7.3-8.6 on .604 TS%, good for a 31.1 PER and .299 WS/48 (both PER and WS/48 rank in the top 10 single-season marks all-time), and in 2014 his numbers slipped a bit, but he led the league in RAPM, then had one of the greatest playoff runs ever (.668 TS%, 31.1 PER).

Looking at raw totals, LeBron's longevity is on the lower end, but certainly not devastatingly so. He's now up to 33276 career regular-season minutes. Magic had 33245. Bird had 34443. Jordan played 35887 in Chicago. In terms of per-minute impact, I'd put LeBron closer to the Jordan end of that scale than the Magic/Bird end, too. As a result, LeBron already looks great by cumulative statistics. He's 15th overall in career win shares, well above Magic and Bird, who played roughly the same amount of minutes but at a lower level. He's also ahead of Hakeem, even though Hakeem played much longer than LeBron. Looking at things that reward a concentrated distribution of value a bit more (as championship odds do), he's 3rd overall in MVP shares, behind only Jordan and Kareem (some bias towards recent players there with deeper ballots, but as the majority of Bron's shares come from 4 near-unanimous MVPs and an unquestioned 2nd-place finish, he didn't gain from them as much as, say, Kevin Durant did). He's also 6th in RPOY shares (behind Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, and Magic).

In the playoffs, LeBron is a bit behind the most decorated greats with super teams in terms of longevity, but five finals runs will take you pretty far. LeBron has played 6717 playoff minutes. Magic, Wilt, Russell, and Jordan all played around 7500 each (disclaimers about number of rounds obviously apply for the old-timers). Bird is at 6886. Olajuwon, whose playoff performance is perhaps his strongest argument, only played 5749, and Dirk, who similarly is boosted for great playoff performances, only has 5544. In terms of total value accrued in the playoffs, then, LeBron holds up just fine. He's fourth in career playoff win shares, behind only Jordan, Duncan, and Kareem (all the disclaimers about shorter playoffs for old-timers count double here, as the first round is when you get the easiest wins, but still very impressive to be ahead of Shaq and Hakeem here).

I stuck to cumulative metrics above not because they're the best way to evaluate players (they're not), but rather to illustrate that even if we choose the method that is most harmed by a lack of longevity, LeBron can still hold his own. If we look at per-minute and per-possession numbers to look directly at the level of play LeBron is giving you while he's on the court, nobody else can really compete. No matter what aspect you look at, LeBron is as good as anyone.

Box score statistics: averages of 28-7-7 per game on .580 TS% in a very slow era over his last 10 years (excluding only rookie year), with very steady production year-to-year other than steadily increasing shooting efficiency. Four of the top 11 years in WS/48, and Jordan, Kareem, and WIlt have other seven. Four of the top 11 seasons in PER, and again only Jordan, Kareem, and Wilt beat him even once. If you prefer career averages, LeBron is 5th overall in WS/48 (behind only Jordan, Robinson, Wilt, and Paul), and 2nd in PER (behind Jordan, and only by .1 points). Those numbers are boosted by not yet including a decline phase, but LeBron has such a huge lead it's hard to imagine him falling far at all, especially when we see that his peak and prime is so much higher than almost everyone else.

Plus-Minus data: RAPM and similar metrics have all consistently had LeBron as on par with KG and Shaq as the very best players of the era. His peak is as high as anyone, and sustained over many years. Even some multi-year samples that include a lot of pre-prime LeBron and exclude some of his best years (i.e. the 02-11 RAPM on Colts' site) has LeBron as the #1 player of the era, with a 1-point lead over his only challenger in KG and a 3-point lead over Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Nash, even with a sample just about perfect for grabbing their primes and little else. Data from his (rare) missed games in Cleveland and consistently great raw on-off numbers only back this conclusion up. The eye test, while not computationally as powerful as RAPM, can also tell that LeBron's impact would hold up beyond basic stats. He's an excellent passer, and spaces the floor very well (especially when at the four), two of the most important things for +/- data that may slip through the box score. In contrast to someone like Wilt, who was known for chasing stats above all else, LeBron's defining trait might be "making the right play", rejecting the hero-ball narrative and getting his teammates involved, even with the game on the line.

Defense: This is harder to measure than some of the other stuff, and LeBron is obviously not Hakeem/Duncan level here, but he's still one of the great perimeter defenders of all time. By every measure I've seen, whether in the box score, plus-minus data, or popular acclaim, LeBron rates out very well. His size and athleticism make him very versatile, and without that versatility from him (and, to a lesser degree, Wade), I doubt the Heat's trapping style would work at all. I rate LeBron's defense as similar to that of Jordan or of Kareem, Shaq, and the second or third tier of defensive bigs, and it's in that half of the game that he really separates himself from Magic and Bird, average at best players on that end.

Playoff performance: This is one area detractors harp on with narrative-based attacks, but even with a couple hiccups (like everyone has once you've ranked Jordan and Russell), LeBron's performance is as good as anyone's. He won two finals MVPs in very convincing fashion, and was the best individual player in this year's finals, too (admittedly, this was in much less convincing fashion). He's third in career playoff WS/48 and PER, behind only Jordan and Mikan in both cases. I don't have his numbers in elimination games at my fingertips, but I've seen them posted many times, and they are incredible. He might be the all-time leader in PPG in elimination games, or behind only Jordan, if I recall correctly.

Off-court issues: LeBron has been basically a model citizen in this regard. Some fans perceive him as having a large ego and judge him harshly for it, but in terms of building a camaraderie among teammates and a happy environment, LeBron is excellent here. The chemistry in Cleveland and Miami were both clear even to outside observers, and the teams just loved playing together. This isn't a super important category (unless you really screw it up), but there are no concerns here for LeBron. If you're going to hold leaving as a free agent and going to Miami against him, then you better knock Oscar Robertson a long way down your rankings , as he's responsible for enabling decades of such behavior with his lawsuit.

Clutch Performance: Part of this is covered in his playoff performances, and another part is about how he performs in late-game situations. Some fans knocked him for this due to his famously passing up some shots to get teammates wide-open threes on the final possessions of the game. The evidence just doesn't back them up, though. What's crazy is, I want to say they're wrong because "hero ball doesn't work; you should just make the right basketball play and find the open man", but that's not entirely accurate. It's more like "Hero ball doesn't work, unless you have LeBron". League efficiency tends to go down in those scenarios, but LeBron's shown a propensity for incredible clutch performances over the years. 82games has been tracking clutch stats for the past six years, with clutch defined as "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points". By their numbers, in 08-09 LeBron averaged 55.9 points, 14.3 rebounds, and 12.6 assists per 48 minutes of clutch time, on .556/.421/.85 shooting splits (.693 TS%). Cleveland outscored their opponents by 103 points in 111 minutes of clutch time that year, or +45 per 48 minutes. In 09-10, he averaged 66.1-15.9-8.3-3.2-3.2 per 48, on .488/.340/.80 shooting (.630 TS%). Cleveland outscored their opponents by 116 points over 151 minutes in those situations, or +37 over 48 minutes. After relative down years (by his standards), LeBron picked back up at a pretty great pace in 12-13, when he averaged 38.7-15.2-14.9 per 48, on .442/.280/.76 shooting (.555 TS%). While the individual numbers aren't as crazy, Miami outscored opponents by 125 points over 161 minutes of clutch time with LeBron, or +37 per 48 minutes, and this was a big factor in their 26-game winning streak. They could basically take it easy for much of the game, then turn it on in the second half if they needed to and overcome any deficit they might've accrued. I generally don't believe there's much merit to clutch performances, but this is stuff that just should not be possible. 66 points per 48 on .630 TS% for a slow team in the modern NBA, in the most important time of the game? Outscoring opponents by about three or four times as much per minute as the best season-long marks in NBA history, entirely in game-deciding moments? If anyone tries to tell you LeBron wasn't clutch before coming to Miami, or before the 2012 championship run, they could not be more wrong.

Team Success: While *only* having two titles might put him behind some of these guys, LeBron has led some very successful teams using very different styles. He led a 66-win, 8.68 SRS Cavs team in 2009 that almost always had two bigs on the floor and used their size to their advantage, with basketball-reference saying LeBron was at SF 74% of the time. The team had a +10.0 efficiency differential, which actually increased to +15.0 with LeBron on the floor (compared to -6.2 while he sat, a net difference of 21.2 points). He went to Miami, and peaked there with a 66-win, 7.03 SRS team in 2013. That team was all about surrounding LeBron with shooters and spacing the floor, and used LeBron at PF in 82% of his minutes (and at C in another 9%). Their +8.6 efficiency differential increased to +13.2 with LeBron on the floor, compared to -2.1 when he sat (a net difference of 15.3 points). That's very impressive versatility, leading two entirely different 66-win teams, both as the unquestioned #1 man (and near-unanimous league MVP), and doing it in not only two different roles but at two different positions entirely.


The (relatively) short version:
-By box score metrics like WS/48 and PER, he's get the #1, #2, #3, and #4 best seasons of players not yet on the list (four of the top 11 overall. For his career, he's 2nd in RS PER, and 5th in WS/48. then 3rd in both PER and WS/48 in the playoffs. Unless you're arguing for Mikan, nobody else comes close.

-BY RAPM, he's got three of the top 6 seasons of the 98-14 era (and three of the top-4 post-99, if you're worried about the very first season of that data). In most of the multi-season samples, he finishes #1 overall, even in time frames that seem to favor other players' primes.

-Quite possibly the most complete player ever. His scoring gets kinda forgotten because of all his other skills, but he's third in NBA history in career points per game, and just had back-to-back seasons of >30% USG and >.640 TS%. Purely as a volume scorer, he's one of the greatest in NBA history. You can say the same thing about other facets of his game, though. He's top-25 in AST%, ranking first among non-PGs. His court vision is truly incredible, and I'd argue that he's the best non-PG passer ever (Bird and Manu would have an argument, but they seem to have a bit more flash and a bit less pure effectiveness. And you could say make a similar argument for his defense, where he has unmatched versatility, and where he ranks even with the Pippens and the Jordans as one of the best perimeter defenders ever.

-Dominated the NBA as the clear-cut best player for longer than anyone except Jordan and Kareem. Since 09, LeBron has resided in a unique position so far above the rest of the league as to have virtually no challengers who can lay an honest claim to being better than him; a position most all-time greats are lucky to hold for a year or two. And it's not like he hasn't had challengers, either. 2009 featured peak Wade averaging 30-5-7.5 with 2.2 steals and 1.3 blocks, all on .574 TS%. It featured Chris Paul putting up a 30.0 PER and .292 WS/48, both of which rank as the #1 seasons of all time among PGs. It featured Kobe in his prime leading the Lakers to an incredibly dominant season. If only those players were around, it would not have been a down year for the MVP. And yet not only did LeBron beat them all for MVP, he won with 97% of the vote, one of the top 10 margins ever. 2013 was a similar story. Kevin Durant put up 28 ppg on a .647 TS% and would've been a very deserving MVP. Yet LeBron so completely outplayed him as to win the MVP with a record 99.8% of the vote.

That's the big-picture difference between LeBron and the other contenders here. Magic and Bird traded off MVPs, then faded a bit when Jordan came in. Hakeem didn't even separate himself from Robinson, Malone, Barkley, and Ewing except for in the playoffs in his best couple years. Garnett was seen as even at best with Duncan, and often closer to DIrk and Kobe instead. LeBron came in against similarly elite competition, and left no doubt about who was better.



I won`t dispute the RS dominance by LeBron as I`m in agreement with most here that he may have been the best player ever when it comes to `carrying`teams that were generally inferior in talent as long as the floor was spaced with 3pt shooters which is always the style has has worked best from LeBron.

Having said that, while he is most certainly one of the most versatile defenders I`m strongly against the notion that he is on par with someone like Pippen defensively. LeBron has played defense in spurts ever since he was recognized with this first all-defensive team selection, very rarely has he demonstrated the ability to both run the offense and play this GOAT-level defense which is a common myth.

I`d say the 2012 Finals MVP was convincing no doubt (despite the blatant non call where he fouled Durant at the end of game 2 that made it a 1-1 series rather than a 2-0 OKC lead), but his 2013 Finals MVP was most definitely not convincing. The end of game 6 was a disaster for LeBron truth be told, it was game 7 where he really shined but the rest of the series he was very pedestrian by his own great standards.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013_finals.html#MIA::none

LeBron`s 2013 Finals Stats
PPG 25.3
RBG 10.9
APG 7.0
SPG 2.3
BPG 0.9
FG% .447
3FG% .353
FT% .795

If you throw out his 2007 Finals Stats as an outlier given how overmatched his team was, even then he performed below expectation for 2 out of his 4 Finals with the Heat (2011, 2013).

His FG% drop from his RS% of .565 to .447 is over a drop of 10%. I`m not sure how this could be considered a great series by him. Even at the end of game 4 where Wade was the player of the game, he chose to pad his stats at the very end.

His 4 MVPs are most definitely impressive and deserved, but level of competition does factor in to this. In the 2000s, you had Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and KG dualing it out for MVPs. The only competition close to his level now is Durant. Much much easier to stack up on the allocades.


A few points:
-LeBron does better in the four-out style, as I think most players do nowadays, but he can still be great even in traditional lineups with two big men. He played at SF 74% of the time in Cleveland in 2009, and 84% of the time in 2010, both times without a stretch big alongside him. 2009 was still one of the greatest peak seasons of all time, and 2010 isn't far behind.

-You're right, Pippen-level was a bit of hyperbole. I still think he ranks in the top tier of perimeter defenders all-time, and the DRAPM data, eye test, and accolades back that conclusion up for me. He's certainly far ahead of Magic and Bird there.

-You brought up the end of game 6 in the 2013 finals as a weak point? That was the infamous "headband game", where he single-handedly took over and saved the Heat from the brink of elimination. Wade sat with 39 seconds left in the 3rd quarter and Miami down 12 on the brink of elimination. While Wade sat, over the next 9 minutes, LeBron scored 13 points on 6-8 shooting (getting to the rim on literally every single shot), assisted on 2 three-pointers, played incredible defense, and led the Heat to a three-point lead. It was one of the most impressive runs in recent memory, on the biggest stage possible.

-I really think we should stay away from evaluating players' playoff performances compared to "their own great standards" or whether they performed "above expectations". To do so just punishes players for having a higher level of play throughout the vast majority of their careers. If one guy goes 30-5-5 during the regular season and then "disappoints" by only getting 25-5-5 in the playoffs, while another guy goes 20-5-5 during the regular season and then improves to 25-5-5 in the playoffs, the first guy is still a way better player, even if he didn't "play up to expectations" in the playoffs.

By this standard, it's easy to see why all the objective metrics are so much higher on his playoff record than the narrative-based attacks would suggest. The 2013 Finals stats you quote, 25-11-7-2.3-0.9 on .529 TS% with a 9.7 TS% would be an incredible series for most players. Bird or Magic would be proud of a series like that. Similarly, people are down on his playoff losses in Cleveland because they think of it as a 66 or 61-win team flopping in the playoffs. Replace LeBron on those teams with just about any other great, though, and there's no way those teams even make it to 60 wins in the first place. If Hakeem leads those teams to 55 wins and then they lose to the eventual finalists, nobody counts that playoff performance as a black mark, but since LeBron was so amazing in the regular season, suddenly his two-year run of 32-9-7 on 61% TS%, with 33 PER and .330 WS/48 is considered a disappointment.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#63 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:30 am

If you only care about peak, vote Lebron. He had the better peak. I won't dispute that. Lebron is coming up really soon for me, I'm even tempted to pick him here, but for now I'm sticking with Magic and his much better longevity.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#64 » by Notanoob » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:31 am

DannyNoonan1221 wrote:While I understand per100, per36 stats, I am not a big supporter of them. Why should we look at a player's per100 stats? We are talking about how these players rank based on what they did on the court during a 48 minute game. I do not agree with the per 100 mindset- a players impact and role is based on what they actually do in 48 minutes. If a coach could give these guys 100 possessions every game and they would actually produce what their per100 stats did that would be nothing short of miraculous. Resting on the bench plays a big part in a players production, both positive (keeping them fresh) and negative (less chances to produce). If people do not agree with this or have questions I can go into more detail but won't for right now.
For the purpose of all-time discussions, per36 won't come up until Manu gets involved, but the per100 possessions is useful simply for comparing guys who played at very different paces. It's mostly useful for the more extreme outliers, really. Those early 60's and 70's guys were playing and such a different pace that their stats have to be adjusted to account for it to compare them with more recent players.

Otherwise, the minutes and pace differences should only be marginal and not really swing anyone's opinions.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#65 » by DQuinn1575 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:33 am

Baller2014 wrote: Magic..... but Lebron and Bird have much less longevity..


Career Minutes played

Bird 34,443
LeBron 33,276
Magic 33,245

? -

Baller2014 wrote:
While Magic got progressively more awesome as he stayed in the NBA longer, he was still an MVP calibre player in year 1.


Magic

1980 - 0 points for mvp
1981 0 points for mvp

Nobody watching thought he was MVP caliber - no one.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#66 » by magicmerl » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:43 am

DannyNoonan1221 wrote:While I understand per100, per36 stats, I am not a big supporter of them. Why should we look at a player's per100 stats? We are talking about how these players rank based on what they did on the court during a 48 minute game. I do not agree with the per 100 mindset- a players impact and role is based on what they actually do in 48 minutes. If a coach could give these guys 100 possessions every game and they would actually produce what their per100 stats did that would be nothing short of miraculous.

Imagine two teams. One plays at 80 possessions per game. The other plays at 100 possessions per game, on average. I think it's ridiculous to think that a player on the 100 possession team is 'better' simply because they have 25% more possession to accumulate stats.

If those two teams were to play each other head to head, you wouldn't have one team get 100 possessions and the other 80. Basketball possessions are defined in such a way that teams have a near-equal number of them in a game.

So using per-100 stats is an attempt to guesstimate what a player's production would be in a game where they had the same number of possessions. It's a vital part of directly comparing the two players in my mind.

DannyNoonan1221 wrote:I do find it interesting that LeBron's PER is that much higher than Magic's though even though he is -.03 in TS%.

LeBron has an enormous USG% advantage. Not only is he out there for a higher number of minutes per game like you point out, he's also consuming a higher proportion of his team's possessions each minute he is on the court.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#67 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:44 am

MVP voters can be wrong you know. If they are, they usually correct their mistake pretty quickly though. That's what happened with Magic. In 1980 the voters hadn't realised just how awesome Magic was yet (though they would by the seasons end), and attributed the teams success to Kareem too much. In 1981 Magic played 37 games, so of course he didn't get many MVP votes (though technically he got enough to rank 11th). In 1982 though, once Magic was healthy, they had him ranked 8th overall (above Kareem) and in the all-NBA 2nd team. The year after that he was ranked 3rd and in the first team. Magic got jobbed a little on the early MVP voting, because he didn't have seniority and enough rep yet, but things soon corrected themselves. If your argument is that Bird was a better player in the early years, I don't dispute that.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#68 » by trex_8063 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:45 am

Baller2014 wrote:If you only care about peak, vote Lebron. He had the better peak. I won't dispute that. Lebron is coming up really soon for me, I'm even tempted to pick him here, but for now I'm sticking with Magic and his much better longevity.


~12.4 seasons vs. 11 seasons
906 rs games vs. 842 rs games
33,245 minutes played vs. 33,276 minutes played

:dontknow:
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#69 » by andrewww » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:47 am

rico381 wrote:
andrewww wrote:
rico381 wrote:I am once again voting for LeBron James.

I've made the case for him in detail before, and I've copied it with slight edits inside spoiler tags here:
Spoiler:
The most impressive thing to me about LeBron is his peak-level performance. LeBron's an incredibly tough guy to pin down in terms of a one-year peak; partly because his game has evolved as he's had different situations around him, and partly because he's got more truly historically great seasons than anyone else still on the board. This recent thread asked people to rank LeBron's 5 best seasons (09, 10, 12-14), and there wasn't a huge consensus. Most had 09, 12, and 13 as the top 3 in some order and 10 and 14 below, but all five are all-timers in their own right. Just looking at the worst of those, in 2010 he averaged 29.7-7.3-8.6 on .604 TS%, good for a 31.1 PER and .299 WS/48 (both PER and WS/48 rank in the top 10 single-season marks all-time), and in 2014 his numbers slipped a bit, but he led the league in RAPM, then had one of the greatest playoff runs ever (.668 TS%, 31.1 PER).

Looking at raw totals, LeBron's longevity is on the lower end, but certainly not devastatingly so. He's now up to 33276 career regular-season minutes. Magic had 33245. Bird had 34443. Jordan played 35887 in Chicago. In terms of per-minute impact, I'd put LeBron closer to the Jordan end of that scale than the Magic/Bird end, too. As a result, LeBron already looks great by cumulative statistics. He's 15th overall in career win shares, well above Magic and Bird, who played roughly the same amount of minutes but at a lower level. He's also ahead of Hakeem, even though Hakeem played much longer than LeBron. Looking at things that reward a concentrated distribution of value a bit more (as championship odds do), he's 3rd overall in MVP shares, behind only Jordan and Kareem (some bias towards recent players there with deeper ballots, but as the majority of Bron's shares come from 4 near-unanimous MVPs and an unquestioned 2nd-place finish, he didn't gain from them as much as, say, Kevin Durant did). He's also 6th in RPOY shares (behind Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, and Magic).

In the playoffs, LeBron is a bit behind the most decorated greats with super teams in terms of longevity, but five finals runs will take you pretty far. LeBron has played 6717 playoff minutes. Magic, Wilt, Russell, and Jordan all played around 7500 each (disclaimers about number of rounds obviously apply for the old-timers). Bird is at 6886. Olajuwon, whose playoff performance is perhaps his strongest argument, only played 5749, and Dirk, who similarly is boosted for great playoff performances, only has 5544. In terms of total value accrued in the playoffs, then, LeBron holds up just fine. He's fourth in career playoff win shares, behind only Jordan, Duncan, and Kareem (all the disclaimers about shorter playoffs for old-timers count double here, as the first round is when you get the easiest wins, but still very impressive to be ahead of Shaq and Hakeem here).

I stuck to cumulative metrics above not because they're the best way to evaluate players (they're not), but rather to illustrate that even if we choose the method that is most harmed by a lack of longevity, LeBron can still hold his own. If we look at per-minute and per-possession numbers to look directly at the level of play LeBron is giving you while he's on the court, nobody else can really compete. No matter what aspect you look at, LeBron is as good as anyone.

Box score statistics: averages of 28-7-7 per game on .580 TS% in a very slow era over his last 10 years (excluding only rookie year), with very steady production year-to-year other than steadily increasing shooting efficiency. Four of the top 11 years in WS/48, and Jordan, Kareem, and WIlt have other seven. Four of the top 11 seasons in PER, and again only Jordan, Kareem, and Wilt beat him even once. If you prefer career averages, LeBron is 5th overall in WS/48 (behind only Jordan, Robinson, Wilt, and Paul), and 2nd in PER (behind Jordan, and only by .1 points). Those numbers are boosted by not yet including a decline phase, but LeBron has such a huge lead it's hard to imagine him falling far at all, especially when we see that his peak and prime is so much higher than almost everyone else.

Plus-Minus data: RAPM and similar metrics have all consistently had LeBron as on par with KG and Shaq as the very best players of the era. His peak is as high as anyone, and sustained over many years. Even some multi-year samples that include a lot of pre-prime LeBron and exclude some of his best years (i.e. the 02-11 RAPM on Colts' site) has LeBron as the #1 player of the era, with a 1-point lead over his only challenger in KG and a 3-point lead over Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Nash, even with a sample just about perfect for grabbing their primes and little else. Data from his (rare) missed games in Cleveland and consistently great raw on-off numbers only back this conclusion up. The eye test, while not computationally as powerful as RAPM, can also tell that LeBron's impact would hold up beyond basic stats. He's an excellent passer, and spaces the floor very well (especially when at the four), two of the most important things for +/- data that may slip through the box score. In contrast to someone like Wilt, who was known for chasing stats above all else, LeBron's defining trait might be "making the right play", rejecting the hero-ball narrative and getting his teammates involved, even with the game on the line.

Defense: This is harder to measure than some of the other stuff, and LeBron is obviously not Hakeem/Duncan level here, but he's still one of the great perimeter defenders of all time. By every measure I've seen, whether in the box score, plus-minus data, or popular acclaim, LeBron rates out very well. His size and athleticism make him very versatile, and without that versatility from him (and, to a lesser degree, Wade), I doubt the Heat's trapping style would work at all. I rate LeBron's defense as similar to that of Jordan or of Kareem, Shaq, and the second or third tier of defensive bigs, and it's in that half of the game that he really separates himself from Magic and Bird, average at best players on that end.

Playoff performance: This is one area detractors harp on with narrative-based attacks, but even with a couple hiccups (like everyone has once you've ranked Jordan and Russell), LeBron's performance is as good as anyone's. He won two finals MVPs in very convincing fashion, and was the best individual player in this year's finals, too (admittedly, this was in much less convincing fashion). He's third in career playoff WS/48 and PER, behind only Jordan and Mikan in both cases. I don't have his numbers in elimination games at my fingertips, but I've seen them posted many times, and they are incredible. He might be the all-time leader in PPG in elimination games, or behind only Jordan, if I recall correctly.

Off-court issues: LeBron has been basically a model citizen in this regard. Some fans perceive him as having a large ego and judge him harshly for it, but in terms of building a camaraderie among teammates and a happy environment, LeBron is excellent here. The chemistry in Cleveland and Miami were both clear even to outside observers, and the teams just loved playing together. This isn't a super important category (unless you really screw it up), but there are no concerns here for LeBron. If you're going to hold leaving as a free agent and going to Miami against him, then you better knock Oscar Robertson a long way down your rankings , as he's responsible for enabling decades of such behavior with his lawsuit.

Clutch Performance: Part of this is covered in his playoff performances, and another part is about how he performs in late-game situations. Some fans knocked him for this due to his famously passing up some shots to get teammates wide-open threes on the final possessions of the game. The evidence just doesn't back them up, though. What's crazy is, I want to say they're wrong because "hero ball doesn't work; you should just make the right basketball play and find the open man", but that's not entirely accurate. It's more like "Hero ball doesn't work, unless you have LeBron". League efficiency tends to go down in those scenarios, but LeBron's shown a propensity for incredible clutch performances over the years. 82games has been tracking clutch stats for the past six years, with clutch defined as "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points". By their numbers, in 08-09 LeBron averaged 55.9 points, 14.3 rebounds, and 12.6 assists per 48 minutes of clutch time, on .556/.421/.85 shooting splits (.693 TS%). Cleveland outscored their opponents by 103 points in 111 minutes of clutch time that year, or +45 per 48 minutes. In 09-10, he averaged 66.1-15.9-8.3-3.2-3.2 per 48, on .488/.340/.80 shooting (.630 TS%). Cleveland outscored their opponents by 116 points over 151 minutes in those situations, or +37 over 48 minutes. After relative down years (by his standards), LeBron picked back up at a pretty great pace in 12-13, when he averaged 38.7-15.2-14.9 per 48, on .442/.280/.76 shooting (.555 TS%). While the individual numbers aren't as crazy, Miami outscored opponents by 125 points over 161 minutes of clutch time with LeBron, or +37 per 48 minutes, and this was a big factor in their 26-game winning streak. They could basically take it easy for much of the game, then turn it on in the second half if they needed to and overcome any deficit they might've accrued. I generally don't believe there's much merit to clutch performances, but this is stuff that just should not be possible. 66 points per 48 on .630 TS% for a slow team in the modern NBA, in the most important time of the game? Outscoring opponents by about three or four times as much per minute as the best season-long marks in NBA history, entirely in game-deciding moments? If anyone tries to tell you LeBron wasn't clutch before coming to Miami, or before the 2012 championship run, they could not be more wrong.

Team Success: While *only* having two titles might put him behind some of these guys, LeBron has led some very successful teams using very different styles. He led a 66-win, 8.68 SRS Cavs team in 2009 that almost always had two bigs on the floor and used their size to their advantage, with basketball-reference saying LeBron was at SF 74% of the time. The team had a +10.0 efficiency differential, which actually increased to +15.0 with LeBron on the floor (compared to -6.2 while he sat, a net difference of 21.2 points). He went to Miami, and peaked there with a 66-win, 7.03 SRS team in 2013. That team was all about surrounding LeBron with shooters and spacing the floor, and used LeBron at PF in 82% of his minutes (and at C in another 9%). Their +8.6 efficiency differential increased to +13.2 with LeBron on the floor, compared to -2.1 when he sat (a net difference of 15.3 points). That's very impressive versatility, leading two entirely different 66-win teams, both as the unquestioned #1 man (and near-unanimous league MVP), and doing it in not only two different roles but at two different positions entirely.


The (relatively) short version:
-By box score metrics like WS/48 and PER, he's get the #1, #2, #3, and #4 best seasons of players not yet on the list (four of the top 11 overall. For his career, he's 2nd in RS PER, and 5th in WS/48. then 3rd in both PER and WS/48 in the playoffs. Unless you're arguing for Mikan, nobody else comes close.

-BY RAPM, he's got three of the top 6 seasons of the 98-14 era (and three of the top-4 post-99, if you're worried about the very first season of that data). In most of the multi-season samples, he finishes #1 overall, even in time frames that seem to favor other players' primes.

-Quite possibly the most complete player ever. His scoring gets kinda forgotten because of all his other skills, but he's third in NBA history in career points per game, and just had back-to-back seasons of >30% USG and >.640 TS%. Purely as a volume scorer, he's one of the greatest in NBA history. You can say the same thing about other facets of his game, though. He's top-25 in AST%, ranking first among non-PGs. His court vision is truly incredible, and I'd argue that he's the best non-PG passer ever (Bird and Manu would have an argument, but they seem to have a bit more flash and a bit less pure effectiveness. And you could say make a similar argument for his defense, where he has unmatched versatility, and where he ranks even with the Pippens and the Jordans as one of the best perimeter defenders ever.

-Dominated the NBA as the clear-cut best player for longer than anyone except Jordan and Kareem. Since 09, LeBron has resided in a unique position so far above the rest of the league as to have virtually no challengers who can lay an honest claim to being better than him; a position most all-time greats are lucky to hold for a year or two. And it's not like he hasn't had challengers, either. 2009 featured peak Wade averaging 30-5-7.5 with 2.2 steals and 1.3 blocks, all on .574 TS%. It featured Chris Paul putting up a 30.0 PER and .292 WS/48, both of which rank as the #1 seasons of all time among PGs. It featured Kobe in his prime leading the Lakers to an incredibly dominant season. If only those players were around, it would not have been a down year for the MVP. And yet not only did LeBron beat them all for MVP, he won with 97% of the vote, one of the top 10 margins ever. 2013 was a similar story. Kevin Durant put up 28 ppg on a .647 TS% and would've been a very deserving MVP. Yet LeBron so completely outplayed him as to win the MVP with a record 99.8% of the vote.

That's the big-picture difference between LeBron and the other contenders here. Magic and Bird traded off MVPs, then faded a bit when Jordan came in. Hakeem didn't even separate himself from Robinson, Malone, Barkley, and Ewing except for in the playoffs in his best couple years. Garnett was seen as even at best with Duncan, and often closer to DIrk and Kobe instead. LeBron came in against similarly elite competition, and left no doubt about who was better.



I won`t dispute the RS dominance by LeBron as I`m in agreement with most here that he may have been the best player ever when it comes to `carrying`teams that were generally inferior in talent as long as the floor was spaced with 3pt shooters which is always the style has has worked best from LeBron.

Having said that, while he is most certainly one of the most versatile defenders I`m strongly against the notion that he is on par with someone like Pippen defensively. LeBron has played defense in spurts ever since he was recognized with this first all-defensive team selection, very rarely has he demonstrated the ability to both run the offense and play this GOAT-level defense which is a common myth.

I`d say the 2012 Finals MVP was convincing no doubt (despite the blatant non call where he fouled Durant at the end of game 2 that made it a 1-1 series rather than a 2-0 OKC lead), but his 2013 Finals MVP was most definitely not convincing. The end of game 6 was a disaster for LeBron truth be told, it was game 7 where he really shined but the rest of the series he was very pedestrian by his own great standards.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013_finals.html#MIA::none

LeBron`s 2013 Finals Stats
PPG 25.3
RBG 10.9
APG 7.0
SPG 2.3
BPG 0.9
FG% .447
3FG% .353
FT% .795

If you throw out his 2007 Finals Stats as an outlier given how overmatched his team was, even then he performed below expectation for 2 out of his 4 Finals with the Heat (2011, 2013).

His FG% drop from his RS% of .565 to .447 is over a drop of 10%. I`m not sure how this could be considered a great series by him. Even at the end of game 4 where Wade was the player of the game, he chose to pad his stats at the very end.

His 4 MVPs are most definitely impressive and deserved, but level of competition does factor in to this. In the 2000s, you had Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and KG dualing it out for MVPs. The only competition close to his level now is Durant. Much much easier to stack up on the allocades.


A few points:
-LeBron does better in the four-out style, as I think most players do nowadays, but he can still be great even in traditional lineups with two big men. He played at SF 74% of the time in Cleveland in 2009, and 84% of the time in 2010, both times without a stretch big alongside him. 2009 was still one of the greatest peak seasons of all time, and 2010 isn't far behind.

-You're right, Pippen-level was a bit of hyperbole. I still think he ranks in the top tier of perimeter defenders all-time, and the DRAPM data, eye test, and accolades back that conclusion up for me. He's certainly far ahead of Magic and Bird there.

-You brought up the end of game 6 in the 2013 finals as a weak point? That was the infamous "headband game", where he single-handedly took over and saved the Heat from the brink of elimination. Wade sat with 39 seconds left in the 3rd quarter and Miami down 12 on the brink of elimination. While Wade sat, over the next 9 minutes, LeBron scored 13 points on 6-8 shooting (getting to the rim on literally every single shot), assisted on 2 three-pointers, played incredible defense, and led the Heat to a three-point lead. It was one of the most impressive runs in recent memory, on the biggest stage possible.

-I really think we should stay away from evaluating players' playoff performances compared to "their own great standards" or whether they performed "above expectations". To do so just punishes players for having a higher level of play throughout the vast majority of their careers. If one guy goes 30-5-5 during the regular season and then "disappoints" by only getting 25-5-5 in the playoffs, while another guy goes 20-5-5 during the regular season and then improves to 25-5-5 in the playoffs, the first guy is still a way better player, even if he didn't "play up to expectations" in the playoffs.

By this standard, it's easy to see why all the objective metrics are so much higher on his playoff record than the narrative-based attacks would suggest. The 2013 Finals stats you quote, 25-11-7-2.3-0.9 on .529 TS% with a 9.7 TS% would be an incredible series for most players. Bird or Magic would be proud of a series like that. Similarly, people are down on his playoff losses in Cleveland because they think of it as a 66 or 61-win team flopping in the playoffs. Replace LeBron on those teams with just about any other great, though, and there's no way those teams even make it to 60 wins in the first place. If Hakeem leads those teams to 55 wins and then they lose to the eventual finalists, nobody counts that playoff performance as a black mark, but since LeBron was so amazing in the regular season, suddenly his two-year run of 32-9-7 on 61% TS%, with 33 PER and .330 WS/48 is considered a disappointment.


To say that most players like LeBron would do better playing small ball is an inaccurate generalization to make LeBron look better. There`s no statistics (which is James`big calling card as he does have a supreme peak) to back this statement of yours up.

LeBron is well known for putting up triple doubles even in games where you`d be shocked at this statline after the game when compared to how he may look `underwhelming`by the eye test (see game 6 against Boston in 2010 as an example). But let`s just look at the end of game 6 play by play since you insist it was one of the most impressive runs in recent memory (something I strongly disagree with). The Spurs up until that point had given him wide open jump shots. He then proceeded to close out regulation like this:

With 2:09 remaining, the Heat pulled ahead 89–86 but the Spurs went on a run of their own spearheaded by Tony Parker, who shot a stepback three and a reverse layup in consecutive possessions to put his team ahead 91–89. On the next possession, James lost the ball in the post; this eventually led to a pair of Manu Ginóbili free throws after an intentional foul (by Ray Allen) on the other end, pushing the score to 93–89. James committed a second crucial turnover forcing it into the hands of Ginóbili. Manu Ginóbili who was fouled by Allen, would miss one of two free throws, setting the stage for the comeback.

With 0:28 remaining, the Spurs were up 94–89, and league officials began bringing out the yellow tape to cordon off the floor for the Larry O'Brien Trophy presentation. LeBron James missed a three-pointer, but the ball was kept in Heat possession by Wade and Allen both tipping the ball until Mike Miller got the rebound and passed to James, who made the three-pointer to pull within two points with 20 seconds left. After failing to steal the inbound pass, the Heat immediately fouled Kawhi Leonard, who missed one of two free throws, keeping it a one possession game at 95–92. James was entrusted with the final shot but missed a 26-foot jumper from beyond the arc. Chris Bosh was able to collect a key offensive rebound before passing to Ray Allen, who stepped backward and made a three-point basket from the right corner to send the game into overtime. Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich opted with a small lineup to defend the perimeter in the closing moments of the fourth quarter, resulting in the Spurs' Tim Duncan being on the bench as both Heat's three-pointers came off of rebounds. The Spurs had no timeouts left after Allen's shot, but received a de facto extra timeout due to the video review that confirmed that Allen had both feet behind the 3-point line when he released the ball. Tony Parker was able to drive the length of the court and launch a short off-balance jumper over LeBron James, but it became an airball as the buzzer sounded to end the 4th quarter.

The Heat then pulled away in overtime to win the game. During that period Chris Bosh made two key blocks, including one in the final seconds to prevent a three-point game-tying shot from Danny Green.


I count more net negative plays than I do positive ones.

Regarding expectations, they absolutely DO matter because these are how every player in this project has been subject to. For example, LeBron`s team may have gotten crushed in 2014 but he played much better in the 2014 Finals than in 2013 despite the loss. This project is about how well said player played the game of basketball and the process is just as important as the results. In 2013, with a stroke of a miracle the Heat and LeBron got the results, but his 2014 Finals was so much more impressive than in 2013 for me at least.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#70 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:47 am

Yeh, but look at when Lebron became Lebron, and when Magic became Magic.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#71 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:51 am

Baller2014 wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
Baller2014 wrote:As for the Kobe talk, the guy is a while away yet. Never mind the fact that his on the court impact wasn't on the same level as these guys, and he's mainly a contender for his (somewhat overstated) longevity, let's take a moment to consider his attitude issues.

How was his on court impact not on the same level?


As I've been elaborating on throughout this project, the best way to tell how much a guy can impact a team is often to look at how he does with bad team mates, because it removes all the variables of how much star X did. All the top 10 type guys we're talking about, like Duncan, Bird, Kareem, Lebron, etc, all showed they had an impact so severe that they could carry even weak teams to contention. Kobe never did that. He not only never did that, but he demonstrated pretty conclusively he couldn't do it. From 99-04 the Lakers record when Shaq was hurt, but Kobe played, was 23-26. Shaq led the same support cast you will call "bad" to a 30-10 record over this period (good for a 60 win pace). In 05-07 without Shaq, Kobe's teams were never contenders, winning between 34 and 45 wins. In 05 Kobe's team wasn't that bad, he had an all-star quality player in Odom, a very good player in young Caron Butler, and several decent role players to round out the starting line-up (Mihm, who was a solid role playing big before his injuries, and Atkins, who was a starter on a 50 win team the following season). Nor can you blame the 05 season on Kobe's injuries (they were 28-38 in games Kobe played), or Odom's (because Odom was only rested once the Lakers knew the playoffs was out of sight, and threw the towel in; they had an unbelievably tough schedule leading into the playoffs, mostly against 50 win teams). The 06 and 07 teams were worse, but were they really worse than the sorts of bad teams Duncan had in 02? I doubt it. Odom would easily have been the best non-Duncan player on the 02-03 Spurs teams, maybe even 01 too given D.Rob was only physically able to play 28mpg). In the 2008 season the record without Bynum or Pau was also a mediocre 9-7. Basically Kobe couldn't get anywhere with bad teams. You know who could? The guys he's being compared to.

Did you really mention Bird and bad supporting casts in the same sentences? :-?

1) Kobe led two garbage teams to the playoffs in a tough Western Conference. In 2005 he was hurt with plantar. The guys you mentioned didn't have casts that were weak when they were contending, so I don't even see how you can compare.

2) Since when has leading a bad team to a decent result eclipsed leading a decent cast to a great result?? Only MJ & Russell have a better rate of success with a decent squad. The whole goal of every GM is to have a star who can take a quality crew to a title. Kobe is better than anyone left on the board in this regard.

3) Why are you bringing up Duncan when he's already been picked?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#72 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:56 am

Sure, Bird had great supporting casts later on in his career, but not immediately. In 1980 Bird took over a 29 win team and turned them around into a 61 win contender. Kobe has no such impact. There were minimal significant changes to the Celtics other than Bird, some players played a little better (Tiny) others played worse (Cowens), some new players arrived, some good ones left, overall the 1980 support cast was probably worse than it had been in 1979.

Kobe's teams were not good from 05-07, but they were no worse than some of the garbage teams Lebron and similar players led to better outcomes, or to the extent there is a difference it is not sufficient to explain the gross disparity in results. Guys we are talking about now did have weak support casts, so you're wrong. Lebron is a great case in point. Kobe's casts were never "decent" while they were contending, they were awesome.

Then there are all the negatives I talked about in depth, that come hand in hand with Kobe. No thanks. I'll be ready to talk about him after the top 12.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#73 » by DQuinn1575 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:00 am

Notanoob wrote:For me, it gets a big murkier after this very obvious stuff. I know that LBJ is one of the best finishers in the league, making around 75% of his shots around the rim, demolishing teams in transition and blowing by people with his absurd-for-his-size quickness. He has a complete offensive repertoire. However, I don't know as much about Magic. How good was he as a finisher? How was his mid-range game, since I don't have splits handy on BBReference like I do for modern players? Was he as feared a slasher as LBJ was? These are important questions for everyone to know. Despite Magic having a better TS% overall than LBJ (with James having the higher peak), I never got the impression that Magic was a better scorer than LeBron, especially considering the load that he regularly had to carry on his teams compared to Magic.

I'd like to get more perspective on Magic, specifically compared to LeBron.


Magic was a wonderful basketball player, and truly revolutionized the game. His size at guard, let alone point guard was unprecedented, and his (and Birds) unselfishness changed the game.

Magic was great off the break driving for layups or making fantastic passes. He was one of the top true point guards ever, ranking with Stockton and Nash. He had the huge height and rebounding over them, and he also became a better scorer.

He started out as an average shooter, but improved a lot - you can see it progress in his free throw shooting. He wasn't a classic jump shooter- and took almost a push set shot. He was pretty accurate with it the 2nd half of his career.

He was a good driver for lay-ups, but didn't terrorize the opponents like LeBron.

He backed people down in the post, and made spin moves or an occasional hook shot. He didn't take many turnarounds like Kobe or Jordan, and didn't back people down for jumpers like Oscar. He didn't post up without the ball very much, except for his brief comeback.

Magic was never the alpha scorer who terrorized you like LeBron, Jordan, Kobe. 1987 his best year (maybe) - 3 games total of 40 or more. I don't know how much more he could have scored, but probably not a lot more than 987.

Once Nixon left (which is when Kareem slowed down) he was kind of exposed on defense, because he wasn't super quick to guard other points, and not a great defender to stop a top notch 2 guard.

A lot of his TS% comes from his high FT% and rate of getting fouled. It also is high due to a lot of transition baskets, and a lot of open shots - due to his teammates, as well as his own ballhandling and passing spreading the defense.

He would beat you with 22 points 10 rebounds and 15 assists.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#74 » by andrewww » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:02 am

Baller2014 wrote:Sure, Bird had great supporting casts later on in his career, but not immediately. In 1980 Bird took over a 29 win team and turned them around into a 61 win contender. Kobe has no such impact. There were minimal significant changes to the Celtics other than Bird, some players played a little better (Tiny) others played worse (Cowens), some new players arrived, some good ones left, overall the 1980 support cast was probably worse than it had been in 1979.

Kobe's teams were not good from 05-07, but they were no worse than some of the garbage teams Lebron and similar players led to better outcomes, or to the extent there is a difference it is not sufficient to explain the gross disparity in results. Guys we are talking about now did have weak support casts, so you're wrong. Lebron is a great case in point. Kobe's casts were never "decent" while they were contending, they were awesome.

Then there are all the negatives I talked about in depth, that come hand in hand with Kobe. No thanks. I'll be ready to talk about him after the top 12.


Baller, while I respect your posts I think it`d be best if we all kept an open mind with regards to our opinions.

Kobe is not a popular guy on realgm but to say you`d only be ready to talk him up after the top 12 means that the remaining slots will go to (in no particular order) Hakeem, Magic, LeBron, Bird, KG, and 1 more player.

That`s a bold statement and the sound of someone who`s already made up their mind no matter how the evidence or arguments are brought up in this project. Either he is the luckiest player of all time or he must`ve been doing something right to be a part of 2 completely different sets of teammates while winning consecutive multiple championships on both teams while going to 7 Finals and being victorious in 5 of them.

But let`s not derail this topic as this discussion will be good in the coming rounds.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#75 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:09 am

penbeast0 wrote:Lots and lots of questions but after LeBron goes in, Mikan is the only guy left who was the clear and undisputed best player in the league for any length of time.



How do you define length of time?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#76 » by trex_8063 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:14 am

Baller2014 wrote:Yeh, but look at when Lebron became Lebron, and when Magic became Magic.


Lebron 2nd season:
27.2 ppg (3rd in league)/7.4 rpg/7.2 apg (6th in league)/2.2 spg (3rd in league) on .554 TS% and 3.3 topg
Per100: 34.3 pts, 9.3 reb, 9.1 ast, 2.8 stl, 0.8 blk, 4.1 tov
PER 25.7 (6th in league), .203 WS/48 (9th in league) on huge 42.4 mpg (1st in league); 14.3 total WS (4th in league).
114 ORtg, 103 DRtg
All-NBA 2nd Team
6th in MVP voting (was 9th in MVP voting as a rookie, fwiw)

Magic 3rd season (we'll omit mention of his 2nd, as he missed 45 games with injury--->more games than Lebron has missed in his entire career, btw):
18.6 ppg/9.6 rpg/9.5 apg/2.7 spg on .590 TS% and 3.7 topg
Per100: 22.5 pts, 11.7 reb, 11.6 ast, 3.2 stl, 0.5 blk, 4.5 tov
22.9 PER (7th in league), .207 WS/48 (5th in league) on 38.3 mpg; 12.9 total WS (4th in league).
118 ORtg, 102 DRtg
All-NBA 2nd Team
8th in MVP voting


And Lebron would be SIGNIFICANTLY better by his 3rd year (PER 28+, All-NBA 1st Team, 2nd in MVP voting, etc); meanwhile Magic would be only negligibly better his in his 4th year. Lebron would hit a peak(-ish) season/period of his career by his 6th year in the league; Magic wouldn't hit his peak until his 8th season. So.....
:dontknow:

Bron's peak also lasted longer and was higher (as you acknowledged). Given all of this, frankly prime vs. prime Magic just doesn't compare well, imo.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#77 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:18 am

Baller2014 wrote:Sure, Bird had great supporting casts later on in his career, but not immediately. In 1980 Bird took over a 29 win team and turned them around into a 61 win contender. Kobe has no such impact. There were minimal significant changes to the Celtics other than Bird, some players played a little better (Tiny) others played worse (Cowens), some new players arrived, some good ones left, overall the 1980 support cast was probably worse than it had been in 1979.

Kobe's teams were not good from 05-07, but they were no worse than some of the garbage teams Lebron and similar players led to better outcomes, or to the extent there is a difference it is not sufficient to explain the gross disparity in results. Guys we are talking about now did have weak support casts, so you're wrong. Lebron is a great case in point. Kobe's casts were never "decent" while they were contending, they were awesome.

Then there are all the negatives I talked about in depth, that come hand in hand with Kobe. No thanks. I'll be ready to talk about him after the top 12.

How did Lebron do better? here's the SRS of his teams from 05-08. By 2009 I don't see how you could call his cast weak.
04 Cavs -3.07
05 Cavs 0.27 SRS
06 Cavs 2.17 SRS
07 Cavs 3.33 SRS
08 Cavs -0.53 SRS
^
That's no better than Kobe with the Smush teams.

And like I asked in the previous post, isn't leading a quality cast deep a more important factor? Because Kobe with a decent cast has had far more success.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#78 » by rico381 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:20 am

andrewww wrote:
Spoiler:
rico381 wrote:
andrewww wrote:I won`t dispute the RS dominance by LeBron as I`m in agreement with most here that he may have been the best player ever when it comes to `carrying`teams that were generally inferior in talent as long as the floor was spaced with 3pt shooters which is always the style has has worked best from LeBron.

Having said that, while he is most certainly one of the most versatile defenders I`m strongly against the notion that he is on par with someone like Pippen defensively. LeBron has played defense in spurts ever since he was recognized with this first all-defensive team selection, very rarely has he demonstrated the ability to both run the offense and play this GOAT-level defense which is a common myth.

I`d say the 2012 Finals MVP was convincing no doubt (despite the blatant non call where he fouled Durant at the end of game 2 that made it a 1-1 series rather than a 2-0 OKC lead), but his 2013 Finals MVP was most definitely not convincing. The end of game 6 was a disaster for LeBron truth be told, it was game 7 where he really shined but the rest of the series he was very pedestrian by his own great standards.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013_finals.html#MIA::none

LeBron`s 2013 Finals Stats
PPG 25.3
RBG 10.9
APG 7.0
SPG 2.3
BPG 0.9
FG% .447
3FG% .353
FT% .795

If you throw out his 2007 Finals Stats as an outlier given how overmatched his team was, even then he performed below expectation for 2 out of his 4 Finals with the Heat (2011, 2013).

His FG% drop from his RS% of .565 to .447 is over a drop of 10%. I`m not sure how this could be considered a great series by him. Even at the end of game 4 where Wade was the player of the game, he chose to pad his stats at the very end.

His 4 MVPs are most definitely impressive and deserved, but level of competition does factor in to this. In the 2000s, you had Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and KG dualing it out for MVPs. The only competition close to his level now is Durant. Much much easier to stack up on the allocades.


A few points:
-LeBron does better in the four-out style, as I think most players do nowadays, but he can still be great even in traditional lineups with two big men. He played at SF 74% of the time in Cleveland in 2009, and 84% of the time in 2010, both times without a stretch big alongside him. 2009 was still one of the greatest peak seasons of all time, and 2010 isn't far behind.

-You're right, Pippen-level was a bit of hyperbole. I still think he ranks in the top tier of perimeter defenders all-time, and the DRAPM data, eye test, and accolades back that conclusion up for me. He's certainly far ahead of Magic and Bird there.

-You brought up the end of game 6 in the 2013 finals as a weak point? That was the infamous "headband game", where he single-handedly took over and saved the Heat from the brink of elimination. Wade sat with 39 seconds left in the 3rd quarter and Miami down 12 on the brink of elimination. While Wade sat, over the next 9 minutes, LeBron scored 13 points on 6-8 shooting (getting to the rim on literally every single shot), assisted on 2 three-pointers, played incredible defense, and led the Heat to a three-point lead. It was one of the most impressive runs in recent memory, on the biggest stage possible.

-I really think we should stay away from evaluating players' playoff performances compared to "their own great standards" or whether they performed "above expectations". To do so just punishes players for having a higher level of play throughout the vast majority of their careers. If one guy goes 30-5-5 during the regular season and then "disappoints" by only getting 25-5-5 in the playoffs, while another guy goes 20-5-5 during the regular season and then improves to 25-5-5 in the playoffs, the first guy is still a way better player, even if he didn't "play up to expectations" in the playoffs.

By this standard, it's easy to see why all the objective metrics are so much higher on his playoff record than the narrative-based attacks would suggest. The 2013 Finals stats you quote, 25-11-7-2.3-0.9 on .529 TS% with a 9.7 TS% would be an incredible series for most players. Bird or Magic would be proud of a series like that. Similarly, people are down on his playoff losses in Cleveland because they think of it as a 66 or 61-win team flopping in the playoffs. Replace LeBron on those teams with just about any other great, though, and there's no way those teams even make it to 60 wins in the first place. If Hakeem leads those teams to 55 wins and then they lose to the eventual finalists, nobody counts that playoff performance as a black mark, but since LeBron was so amazing in the regular season, suddenly his two-year run of 32-9-7 on 61% TS%, with 33 PER and .330 WS/48 is considered a disappointment.

To say that most players like LeBron would do better playing small ball is an inaccurate generalization to make LeBron look better. There`s no statistics (which is James`big calling card as he does have a supreme peak) to back this statement of yours up.


Here's one study on the impact of spacing on team offensive efficiency. You can also see it by going to 82games.com and comparing individual and team-level performances at PF vs SF for players like Melo, Gallinari, Pierce, G. Wallace, and so on, or by looking at the RAPM numbers for just about every stretch 4.

LeBron is well known for putting up triple doubles even in games where you`d be shocked at this statline after the game when compared to how he may look `underwhelming`by the eye test (see game 6 against Boston in 2010 as an example). But let`s just look at the end of game 6 play by play since you insist it was one of the most impressive runs in recent memory (something I strongly disagree with). The Spurs up until that point had given him wide open jump shots. He then proceeded to close out regulation like this:

Spoiler:
With 2:09 remaining, the Heat pulled ahead 89–86 but the Spurs went on a run of their own spearheaded by Tony Parker, who shot a stepback three and a reverse layup in consecutive possessions to put his team ahead 91–89. On the next possession, James lost the ball in the post; this eventually led to a pair of Manu Ginóbili free throws after an intentional foul (by Ray Allen) on the other end, pushing the score to 93–89. James committed a second crucial turnover forcing it into the hands of Ginóbili. Manu Ginóbili who was fouled by Allen, would miss one of two free throws, setting the stage for the comeback.

With 0:28 remaining, the Spurs were up 94–89, and league officials began bringing out the yellow tape to cordon off the floor for the Larry O'Brien Trophy presentation. LeBron James missed a three-pointer, but the ball was kept in Heat possession by Wade and Allen both tipping the ball until Mike Miller got the rebound and passed to James, who made the three-pointer to pull within two points with 20 seconds left. After failing to steal the inbound pass, the Heat immediately fouled Kawhi Leonard, who missed one of two free throws, keeping it a one possession game at 95–92. James was entrusted with the final shot but missed a 26-foot jumper from beyond the arc. Chris Bosh was able to collect a key offensive rebound before passing to Ray Allen, who stepped backward and made a three-point basket from the right corner to send the game into overtime. Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich opted with a small lineup to defend the perimeter in the closing moments of the fourth quarter, resulting in the Spurs' Tim Duncan being on the bench as both Heat's three-pointers came off of rebounds. The Spurs had no timeouts left after Allen's shot, but received a de facto extra timeout due to the video review that confirmed that Allen had both feet behind the 3-point line when he released the ball. Tony Parker was able to drive the length of the court and launch a short off-balance jumper over LeBron James, but it became an airball as the buzzer sounded to end the 4th quarter.

The Heat then pulled away in overtime to win the game. During that period Chris Bosh made two key blocks, including one in the final seconds to prevent a three-point game-tying shot from Danny Green.

I count more net negative plays than I do positive ones.

Yes, he committed two late-game turnovers. If you think those outweigh him single-handedly carrying the team back from a double-digit deficit in the fourth quarter, that's your prerogative, but I think it's kinda ridiculous to ignore his incredible play in most of the game because of a couple poor plays.

Also, your claim that the Spurs were giving him wide-open shots doesn't do anything to discredit his earlier play in that game. When you watch the series, you're amazed at how much the Spurs pack the paint, and how they have two or three defenders helping on every drive. And yet, in the play-by-play, every single shot LeBron makes during that run is "L. James makes 2-pt shot from 1 ft" or "L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim", and all but one comes unassisted. He's not being gifted jump shots; he's driving into the teeth of the defense and getting the most efficient shots possible.

Regarding expectations, they absolutely DO matter because these are how every player in this project has been subject to. For example, LeBron`s team may have gotten crushed in 2014 but he played much better in the 2014 Finals than in 2013 despite the loss. This project is about how well said player played the game of basketball and the process is just as important as the results. In 2013, with a stroke of a miracle the Heat and LeBron got the results, but his 2014 Finals was so much more impressive than in 2013 for me at least.


My point is that players shouldn't be punished for playing well. If a guy is a 10/10 player most of the time, and a 9/10 on occasion, he's still way better than a guy who's a 9/10 all the time. You'd have to do some ridiculous mental contortions about "disappointment" and "not playing up to his standards" to make the 10/10 guy look worse, but it just doesn't hold up. You're punishing him for being better in the regular season.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#79 » by shutupandjam » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:28 am

Baller2014 wrote:Take a good look at this video of Magic passing. Nobody, ever, has had court vision like this.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Dm0lZTqCc[/youtube]


I'm actually more impressed by LeBron's (2014 only) passing/court vision video:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNGzihnsHyk[/youtube]
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#80 » by andrewww » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:30 am

rico381 wrote:
andrewww wrote:
Spoiler:
rico381 wrote:
A few points:
-LeBron does better in the four-out style, as I think most players do nowadays, but he can still be great even in traditional lineups with two big men. He played at SF 74% of the time in Cleveland in 2009, and 84% of the time in 2010, both times without a stretch big alongside him. 2009 was still one of the greatest peak seasons of all time, and 2010 isn't far behind.

-You're right, Pippen-level was a bit of hyperbole. I still think he ranks in the top tier of perimeter defenders all-time, and the DRAPM data, eye test, and accolades back that conclusion up for me. He's certainly far ahead of Magic and Bird there.

-You brought up the end of game 6 in the 2013 finals as a weak point? That was the infamous "headband game", where he single-handedly took over and saved the Heat from the brink of elimination. Wade sat with 39 seconds left in the 3rd quarter and Miami down 12 on the brink of elimination. While Wade sat, over the next 9 minutes, LeBron scored 13 points on 6-8 shooting (getting to the rim on literally every single shot), assisted on 2 three-pointers, played incredible defense, and led the Heat to a three-point lead. It was one of the most impressive runs in recent memory, on the biggest stage possible.

-I really think we should stay away from evaluating players' playoff performances compared to "their own great standards" or whether they performed "above expectations". To do so just punishes players for having a higher level of play throughout the vast majority of their careers. If one guy goes 30-5-5 during the regular season and then "disappoints" by only getting 25-5-5 in the playoffs, while another guy goes 20-5-5 during the regular season and then improves to 25-5-5 in the playoffs, the first guy is still a way better player, even if he didn't "play up to expectations" in the playoffs.

By this standard, it's easy to see why all the objective metrics are so much higher on his playoff record than the narrative-based attacks would suggest. The 2013 Finals stats you quote, 25-11-7-2.3-0.9 on .529 TS% with a 9.7 TS% would be an incredible series for most players. Bird or Magic would be proud of a series like that. Similarly, people are down on his playoff losses in Cleveland because they think of it as a 66 or 61-win team flopping in the playoffs. Replace LeBron on those teams with just about any other great, though, and there's no way those teams even make it to 60 wins in the first place. If Hakeem leads those teams to 55 wins and then they lose to the eventual finalists, nobody counts that playoff performance as a black mark, but since LeBron was so amazing in the regular season, suddenly his two-year run of 32-9-7 on 61% TS%, with 33 PER and .330 WS/48 is considered a disappointment.

To say that most players like LeBron would do better playing small ball is an inaccurate generalization to make LeBron look better. There`s no statistics (which is James`big calling card as he does have a supreme peak) to back this statement of yours up.


Here's one study on the impact of spacing on team offensive efficiency. You can also see it by going to 82games.com and comparing individual and team-level performances at PF vs SF for players like Melo, Gallinari, Pierce, G. Wallace, and so on, or by looking at the RAPM numbers for just about every stretch 4.

LeBron is well known for putting up triple doubles even in games where you`d be shocked at this statline after the game when compared to how he may look `underwhelming`by the eye test (see game 6 against Boston in 2010 as an example). But let`s just look at the end of game 6 play by play since you insist it was one of the most impressive runs in recent memory (something I strongly disagree with). The Spurs up until that point had given him wide open jump shots. He then proceeded to close out regulation like this:

Spoiler:
With 2:09 remaining, the Heat pulled ahead 89–86 but the Spurs went on a run of their own spearheaded by Tony Parker, who shot a stepback three and a reverse layup in consecutive possessions to put his team ahead 91–89. On the next possession, James lost the ball in the post; this eventually led to a pair of Manu Ginóbili free throws after an intentional foul (by Ray Allen) on the other end, pushing the score to 93–89. James committed a second crucial turnover forcing it into the hands of Ginóbili. Manu Ginóbili who was fouled by Allen, would miss one of two free throws, setting the stage for the comeback.

With 0:28 remaining, the Spurs were up 94–89, and league officials began bringing out the yellow tape to cordon off the floor for the Larry O'Brien Trophy presentation. LeBron James missed a three-pointer, but the ball was kept in Heat possession by Wade and Allen both tipping the ball until Mike Miller got the rebound and passed to James, who made the three-pointer to pull within two points with 20 seconds left. After failing to steal the inbound pass, the Heat immediately fouled Kawhi Leonard, who missed one of two free throws, keeping it a one possession game at 95–92. James was entrusted with the final shot but missed a 26-foot jumper from beyond the arc. Chris Bosh was able to collect a key offensive rebound before passing to Ray Allen, who stepped backward and made a three-point basket from the right corner to send the game into overtime. Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich opted with a small lineup to defend the perimeter in the closing moments of the fourth quarter, resulting in the Spurs' Tim Duncan being on the bench as both Heat's three-pointers came off of rebounds. The Spurs had no timeouts left after Allen's shot, but received a de facto extra timeout due to the video review that confirmed that Allen had both feet behind the 3-point line when he released the ball. Tony Parker was able to drive the length of the court and launch a short off-balance jumper over LeBron James, but it became an airball as the buzzer sounded to end the 4th quarter.

The Heat then pulled away in overtime to win the game. During that period Chris Bosh made two key blocks, including one in the final seconds to prevent a three-point game-tying shot from Danny Green.

I count more net negative plays than I do positive ones.

Yes, he committed two late-game turnovers. If you think those outweigh him single-handedly carrying the team back from a double-digit deficit in the fourth quarter, that's your prerogative, but I think it's kinda ridiculous to ignore his incredible play in most of the game because of a couple poor plays.

Also, your claim that the Spurs were giving him wide-open shots doesn't do anything to discredit his earlier play in that game. When you watch the series, you're amazed at how much the Spurs pack the paint, and how they have two or three defenders helping on every drive. And yet, in the play-by-play, every single shot LeBron makes during that run is "L. James makes 2-pt shot from 1 ft" or "L. James makes 2-pt shot at rim", and all but one comes unassisted. He's not being gifted jump shots; he's driving into the teeth of the defense and getting the most efficient shots possible.

Regarding expectations, they absolutely DO matter because these are how every player in this project has been subject to. For example, LeBron`s team may have gotten crushed in 2014 but he played much better in the 2014 Finals than in 2013 despite the loss. This project is about how well said player played the game of basketball and the process is just as important as the results. In 2013, with a stroke of a miracle the Heat and LeBron got the results, but his 2014 Finals was so much more impressive than in 2013 for me at least.


My point is that players shouldn't be punished for playing well. If a guy is a 10/10 player most of the time, and a 9/10 on occasion, he's still way better than a guy who's a 9/10 all the time. You'd have to do some ridiculous mental contortions about "disappointment" and "not playing up to his standards" to make the 10/10 guy look worse, but it just doesn't hold up. You're punishing him for being better in the regular season.


If LeBron wasn`t a victim of the Spurs giving him wide open shots, then how do you explain a FG% of 44.7 in the series when he`s still according to yourself getting the most efficient shots possible.

Here is a synopsis of his FG shooting game by game in the 2013 Finals
1. 7-16
2. 7-17
3. 7-21
4. 15-25
5. 8-22
6. 11-26
7. 12-23

Now judging by FG% isn`t the only barometer which I get, but in reality LeBron really only had 2 good games (games 4 and 7). Shooting that much poorer than in the RS means that for this series at least, the Spurs were able to take him out of his comfort zone for the majority of the series. In most circumstances this wouldn`t be viewed as a negative per say, but we are talking about ranking some of the greatest players in NBA history in this project and as a result, every detail will be scrutinized.

You`re right to say that a player shouldn`t be punished for playing well, but imho LeBron didn`t even play well, and this is without even bringing up how 2013 was quite possibly his peak season (which I will support for RS only howwever). His playoff runs in 2012 and 2014 were much better.

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