RealGM Top 100 List #7

[colts18]

Lebron played elite defense for 4-5 years 09-13, but Kobe did it from 00-09. Kobe has more great scoring years, better longevity.

Kobe wasn't playing elite defense from 00-09. He was average to below average defensively from 05-07. He was literally taking plays off defensively those years and intentionally guard guys like Raja Bell so that he could take a break on defense.

[penbeast0]

Also I forgot to add on, just how good Charles Barkley was on the offensive glass. For three straight seasons he led the league in offensive rebounds

1986-1987- 390 offensive rebounds
1987-1988- 385 offensive rebounds
1988-1989- 403 offensive rebounds

For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds

1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260

This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.

Will add this to the original post.

Stat was an amazing scorer, McAdoo too (though for a much shorter stretch), but none of them come close to ranking near a Karl Malone nor does Barkley for me. Why not?

(a) Defense, obviously. Barkley was awful. I watched him for years and while he was good at holding post position, he could be shot over fairly easily and he was clueless at rotations frequently not even looking the right direction, at least through his Philly years.

(b) Leadership. I remember reading Jayson Williams's book about how Barkley would be out in the bars until 4A the night before a game and taking other players with him. Barkley was blessed with a ridiculous constitution that could deal with the alcohol apparently; not true of everyone else. Then there were the racist comments in the locker room, the encouragement of skipping practices . . . people said, "That's just Charles being Charles," but that sort of BS adds up.

I probably shouldn't encourage this sort of post though . . . if you have no intention of truly considering a player, can we wait until you might actually think of voting for him to bring him up? I could be convinced to vote for Mikan here if someone could make the real case; I couldn't be convinced to vote for Karl Malone yet. Throwing out names like . . . gee, Shawn Marion should get top 100 consideration, at this point just sidetracks the discussion and you end up just cutting, pasting, and quoting yourself later on.

[E-Balla]

80-84 -and he had to be as good of a finisher as Lebron )

No - LBJ was bigger, stronger, and could jump higher. Magic virtually never dunked on anybody, and didnt drive and challenge the big centers of the day


Real good write-up of his offense. That is probably the only thing I would take exception to.

LeBron is a monster physically compared to Bird and Magic - both of whom are better than Hakeem.

He rebounds better than Magic.
He passes about as well as Bird, and does it more often,
He drives better than either ever did.
He scores more than either, and is more a focal point of the offense you have to worry about.
His defense is way better than either.

I've written a lot this session about Bird > Magic, well this year I realized/accepted that LeBron is better than both.

My Official Vote for LeBron James at #7

When I said he finishes as well as Lebron I meantthat if we olook at percentages at rim Magic will probably come out around 75%. Remember Lebron isn't the best finisher we know of that'll be Barkley. Lebron is a great runner up though.

Magic has a higher peak TRB% and a higher career TRB%. He's a better rebounder.
Bird was a better passer IMO. And Lebron as great as he is is more wiling but he falls way short of Bird's vision and creativity.

[ronnymac2]

I'm going to try and post about Hakeem Olajuwon, specifically his seasons from 1986-1990. Everybody pretty much agrees his peak is at an extremely high level, but he doesn't seem to be getting much mention, and I figure perhaps it's because people are tentative about how to rank his non-peak prime seasons.

I'm going to start with 1990 because I feel it is the most important one to get to and I might not get to all of them.

1990 Hakeem Olajuwon is quite possibly the greatest defensive season in NBA history by a player other than Bill Russell. Dream played 82 games for 38.1 minutes per game. He averaged 10.4 defensive rebounds, 2.1 steals, and a league-leading 4.6 blocks per game. He led the league in total defensive rebounds and total blocks.

He led the league in defensive rebound rate (28.3%) and block percentage (7%). For those who like these stats, he led the league in defensive wins shares (8.7) and individual defensive rating (93).

Houston was a —4.7 defense. This ranked as the best in the NBA in 1990. For Defense Four Factors, Houston was 3rd in eFG%, 9th in Turnover%, 6th in defensive rebound%, and 7th in FG/FTA. All marks were above the league average.

Olajuwon was All-Defense first team, but somehow, he finished second in DPOY voting to Dennis Rodman. This is perhaps the most egregious award error in NBA history. Olajuwon played 3,124 minutes that season (again, 82 games for 38.1 minutes per game). Dennis Rodman played 2,377 minutes (82 games for 29 minutes per game). Rodman's Pistons were an inferior defense. None of his defensive stats are really all that close to Olajuwon's. He averaged 3.4 fouls per game. Olajuwon averaged 3.8 fouls in significantly more minutes (Olajuwon was actually 9th in minutes per game that season in the NBA).

Olajuwon's Rockets faced the best offensive team in the NBA that season, Magic Johnson's LA Lakers in the first round, and lost 3-1, with Magic's Lakers performing well offensively. Olajuwon averaged 5.8 blocks, 2.5 steals, and maintained roughly the same defensive rebound rate as during the season. LA was a legitimate title contender that year.

Olajuwon in 1990 also gave you 24 points on 50 percent shooting and over 70 percent free throw shooting as a big man. He averaged 2.9 assists and 3.9 turnovers.

My Opinion: If you meld him onto a team with more offensive talent, I do not doubt he could average 21-22 points, 3 assists, 3 turnovers and replicate his defensive dominance.

[shutupandjam]

Where is the evidence behind the claims that Kobe was an elite perimeter defender? Why don't the numbers support this claim? The plus minus data has Kobe consistently hurting or very marginally helping his team defensively throughout his prime. One year, sure, that can be an anomaly. But look at his career rapm:

2000: -0.7
2001: +0.9
2002: -0.1
2003: -0.2
2004: -0.4
2005: -1.1
2006: -1.1
2007: -0.1
2008: +0.9
2009: +0.8
2010: +1.9
2011: -0.7
2012: +0.5

His boxscore numbers similarly do not support the "elite" claim with respect to defense. He only eclipsed +1 once in defensive estimated impact in his career (+1.5 in 2000) and his career average is +0.3. Granted, the box score misses a lot, so if you don't put much trust into those numbers, it's understandable. But Kobe isn't much of a turnover creator and I'm not convinced by bits and pieces of video footage of him locking people down on random possessions - because it seems to me those are few and far in between, and while it's great to have someone on your team who can lock opponents down, it doesn't automatically make him a great defensive player.

I'm also unconvinced by his all nba defensive accolades, which, while impressive, seem to me to reflect voters' inability to evaluate defensive impact and consequent decisions to vote for the incumbent or the guy with the reputation.

But perhaps the numbers are misleading and I'm underestimating Kobe's true defensive impact, I'm just not swayed to believe that he was an elite level perimeter defender based on the evidence I've seen, though I'm open to hearing out more arguments.

[andrewww]

LeBron is certainly a gifted and willing passer, but having seen the passes Bird makes on a regular basis, I would say calling LeBron a better passer than Bird an exaggeration that is a direct result of his average assists per game vs Bird's. Bird was more creative and often made the hockey assists that would turn a good shot into a great shot. LeBron has a tendency to pass when it allows for him to record the assist, usually from kick outs from his drives to the bucket.

LeBron's defense is of course more impactful than Bird or Magic, but some posters here make it seem like he's the second coming of Scottie Pippen when his consistency on this end of the floor is closer to the laziness that Kobe demosntrated in the latter part of his career, and with LeBron this is no different. It's a media driven narrative to promote his well deserved versatility, but by no means will I lump LeBron into the group of "elite 2 way players that impacted the game" like Hakeem or Duncan. His man-to-man defense is especially overrated imo. It's his help defense that is rather impactful.

This project is trending towards rewarding peak play over all over evidence provided (we had a separate project for the 50 highest peaks which should remain separate from this project), and certain posters have made it beyond obvious of their bias against certain players (eg. Oscar, Kobe).

[Colbinii]

Magic has a higher peak TRB% and a higher career TRB%. He's a better rebounder.

LeBron was a better defensive rebounder. Magic was a better offensive rebounder. TRB% is basically even for peak.

Bird was a better passer IMO. And Lebron as great as he is is more wiling but he falls way short of Bird's vision and creativity.

Way short? He is the closest thing we have seen since Bird.

Since you used TRB% for Rebounder, why don't we use AST% for passing, or would that not be cool because it favors LeBron and not Bird

LeBron Career AST%: 34.2%
LeBron BEST AST%: 41.8% to 12.3% TOV

Bird Career AST%: 24.7%
Bird BEST AST%: 28.9% to 12.7% TOV

Not only was LeBron a more avid passer, but he turned the ball over LESS.

Now, I realize LeBron has a higher usage, but during LeBron's rookie season, his lowest usage, and on par with Bird's higher Usage rate seasons, LeBron still had a higher AST% than Bird, and that is ROOKIE LeBron.

[colts18]

LeBron vs Bird in the playoffs:

Per 100 possessions:
LeBron: 36-11-8, .578 TS%, 12.4 TOV%, 28 PER, 116 O rating (31 usg%), .242 WS/48
Bird: 28-12-8, .551 TS%, 12.5 TOV%, 21 PER, 114 O rating (25 usg%), .173 WS/48

[E-Balla]

Magic has a higher peak TRB% and a higher career TRB%. He's a better rebounder.

LeBron was a better defensive rebounder. Magic was a better offensive rebounder. TRB% is basically even for peak.

Bird was a better passer IMO. And Lebron as great as he is is more wiling but he falls way short of Bird's vision and creativity.

Way short? He is the closest thing we have seen since Bird.

Since you used TRB% for Rebounder, why don't we use AST% for passing, or would that not be cool because it favors LeBron and not Bird

LeBron Career AST%: 34.2%
LeBron BEST AST%: 41.8% to 12.3% TOV

Bird Career AST%: 24.7%
Bird BEST AST%: 28.9% to 12.7% TOV

Not only was LeBron a more avid passer, but he turned the ball over LESS.

Now, I realize LeBron has a higher usage, but during LeBron's rookie season, his lowest usage, and on par with Bird's higher Usage rate seasons, LeBron still had a higher AST% than Bird, and that is ROOKIE LeBron.

Well I have a problem with using AST% for passing because it says more about your role than your passing. Bird was w PF for most of his career and he played in what was basically Princeton offense. He was never the passing hub like Lebron or Magic (for example the 86 Celtics had an NBA record 3 players over 5apg). To get 5-8 APG while being a score first PF you have to be a pretty amazing passer.

Rebounding wise Magic would have way higher averages if he never played PG. All things considered Magic was about even on the defensive boards but on the offensive boards he was better.

[Jim Naismith]

I am surprised that I haven't read a compelling case for Bird yet. I would have no problem including him in this decision and I have struggled in the past trying to rate him. I want to say that I don't value longevity as highly in itself (unless it's longevity of peak). That's why I didn't vote for Kareem and have him much lower than most other posters, that's why I don't consider Garnett top 10, and that's why I think Bird matches up well with Magic and LeBron.

I've posted this elsewhere, but to your point:

Bird had an extremely good 9-year prime (1980-1988), starting immediately from his rookie year.

* Top 4 MVP each of those 9 years.

* Top 3 MVP eight of those 9 years (every year from 1981 to 1988).

* Top 2 MVP seven of those 9 years (1981-1986, 1988)

* MVP three-peat (1984-86), Russell and Wilt are the only other ones

[Purch]

Also I forgot to add on, just how good Charles Barkley was on the offensive glass. For three straight seasons he led the league in offensive rebounds

1986-1987- 390 offensive rebounds
1987-1988- 385 offensive rebounds
1988-1989- 403 offensive rebounds

For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds

1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260

This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.

Will add this to the original post.

Stat was an amazing scorer, McAdoo too (though for a much shorter stretch), but none of them come close to ranking near a Karl Malone nor does Barkley for me. Why not?

(a) Defense, obviously. Barkley was awful. I watched him for years and while he was good at holding post position, he could be shot over fairly easily and he was clueless at rotations frequently not even looking the right direction, at least through his Philly years.

(b) Leadership. I remember reading Jayson Williams's book about how Barkley would be out in the bars until 4A the night before a game and taking other players with him. Barkley was blessed with a ridiculous constitution that could deal with the alcohol apparently; not true of everyone else. Then there were the racist comments in the locker room, the encouragement of skipping practices . . . people said, "That's just Charles being Charles," but that sort of BS adds up.

I probably shouldn't encourage this sort of post though . . . if you have no intention of truly considering a player, can we wait until you might actually think of voting for him to bring him up? I could be convinced to vote for Mikan here if someone could make the real case; I couldn't be convinced to vote for Karl Malone yet. Throwing out names like . . . gee, Shawn Marion should get top 100 consideration, at this point just sidetracks the discussion and you end up just cutting, pasting, and quoting yourself later on.

Wait so you're telling me throwing out Karl Malone's name, who was voted 13 in the last project just sidetracks from the disscusion? In what way does that make any sense? So Kg or Hakeem can be brought up as early as two and four(When it's clear neither will be voted that high), but it sidetracks from the conversation to bring up Malone at #7?

Are you really attempting to bring up Amare's name, when he has no where near the elite efficiency that Barkley had, despite playing with Steve Nash for the majority of his career? Thats like bringing up Marc Gasol's defense when we're talking about Mutumbo. When you talk about Barkley it's not just a great scorer, it's a great scorer who scored on Shaq level effiency who did it against an extremy high amount of double teams, and defenses focusing in on stopping him. What relevance does he have to this conversation when as a scorer Amare didnt even ever develop a post game? Not to mention he wasn't exposed to a quarter of the double teams that Barkley faced in his career.

B) Anyone can bring up selective quotes about a players leadership. In fact i'll quote one right now about Garnett's leadership.


"I tell a story about -- we were in the locker room when KG was in like his third year in the league, and Sam Mitchell was sitting in the locker room," Saunders said. "KG was in there, and we had lost a couple games, and we were all sitting there talking.

"KG started going, 'Hey, you've got to start doing more.' And he's talking to some of the bench guys. 'You've got to start doing more.' And Sam said, 'Hey, hold it, hold it. Let me tell you something. You're making all the money. Hey, it's your responsibility. You make the money, you've got to live up to that.' So, that was the mentality, and from that time, KG never ever from that point, he always took responsibility."

[trex_8063]

2000-2003 Kobe is better than 2005-2008 Lebron. 06-10 Kobe is on par with 09-14 Lebron

Wow.

I agree with the first part though. I suppose 2001/2003 are comparable to 2006/2008, but Kobe's playoff run in 2001 is probably the tiebreaker.

The second part though...

Yeah the first part of his statement isn't "ridiculous" (though I respectfully disagree with your assessment---more on that below); it is at least within arm's reach of reality. The second statement, though......reality is lost on the horizon for that one.

Kobe in '01 and '03 (his two best years of that 4-year stretch) could be considered marginally better than Lebron '05 and '07 (the two worst of that stretch for Lebron). But I disagree about '06 and '08. Here's a breakdown, the leader in each highlighted in green. If someone is behind in a category by >20%, it is highlighted in red.

Advanced Stats
Kobe ('01 and '03): 25.4 PER, .204 WS/48, 26.2 total WS, ~111.4 ORtg, 104 DRtg
Lebron ('06 and '08): 28.6 PER, .237 WS/48, 31.5 total WS, ~115.4 ORtg, 104 DRtg

Per 100 Poss
Kobe ('01 and '03): 37.1 pts, 8.1 reb, 6.9 ast, 2.5 stl, 0.9 blk, 4.27 tov
Lebron ('06 and '08): 39.5 pts, 9.6 reb, 8.9 ast, 2.2 stl, 1.2 blk, 4.29 tov

RAPM
from shutupandjam...
Kobe (page for '01 not available) in '03: +2.4 (18th in league)
Lebron '06: +4.7 (7th in league); Lebron '08: +6.2 (5th in league)
from stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com......
Kobe '01: +4.0 (17th in league), Kobe '03: +4.6 (14th in league)
Lebron '06: +6.3 (9th in league), Lebron '08: +8.2 (2nd in league)



......so on an individual basis, I really don't see the case for '01/'03 Kobe over '06/'08 Lebron.

[TrueLAfan]

I’m still voting for Magic Johnson. Magic definitely takes a hit for the whole Westhead incident. With respect to David Aretha, Magic shot off his mouth. It’s easy to forget how immature he was in the beginning of his career. He made pretty foolish and ill-advised comments—they weren’t limited to Westhead and the 1982 situation. For instance, when a 23 year old player thinks a 35 year old that is third in career minutes and plays in the post is “loafing” in practice, that's simple ignorance. The same is true with Magic's role in the firing of Westhead; pretty much everyone in Los Angeles, including all the sportscasters and Lakers, felt that Magic had stepped over the line, consciously or not. The fact that the team functioned as well as it did is a testimony to both Magic and Kareem; Magic for learning from his mistake(s), Kareem for not letting the continued shift in power be reversed to Magic's or the team's detriment...even if it would help his own numbers/position.

It’s surprising how many epic players have a “rough patch” with management and/or coaches and/or teammates in their careers. With Magic, it happened in his 2nd/3rd year—and he was largely a model citizen after that. Most put it off to youth. Hakeem had his hiccups in 1990 and 1991. Shaq had, well, more. Wilt had more than that. LeBron first “decision” was not well received or thought of by anybody not in Miami. Even players like Oscar and West had significant run-ins with management and coaching which didn’t get much press at the time, but were a big deal. So I think what you have to ask is if these issues were incidental or chronic. With Magic, I lean toward the former. He grew out of them quickly and was acknowledged as not just a stand-up guy but a pretty magnificent on-court leader. The sense of respect and liking for Magic among teammates is not as common as you might think. It’s worth something...just enough for me to give Magic the nod over LeBron, with Bird and Hakeem being right there. (When we get to Julius Erving and Jerry West, I’ll have more to say about this.)

In some of the talk about Magic, I think the discussion is trying to get too abstract. Magic has a greater positional advantage than any player I can think of. Magic Johnson, as a rebounder, is worth as much or more to his teams than Kevin Love or Dwight Howard on the boards. He’s responsible for about 250-300 more rebounds a year than an average PG—a massive, massive difference, more than any PG. His height differential makes him more of a matchup nightmare at his position than anyone I can think of—as the memories and films of Magic in the low post show. He sees over you and passes the ball when he's on the perimeter. Or he uses his ballhandling skills and goes around. Or he hits a jumper--the three wasn't used often in the NBA until the mid- to late-80s. When it was, Magic got good at it (not unlike Jordan). He scored 20 a game on elite efficiency (9th in career TS%). And what are you going to do when Magic has the ball down low—double him? Double team the greatest passer of all time with that type of court vision and awareness? There are functional reasons when Magic was so effective and helped offenses. I think it led to Magic being able to help his teammates more than anyone on history in offense.

[andrewww]

For those in the LeBron is an elite defender train, since he is such a stat sheet stuffer let's take a closer look at one of the famed categories for determining defensive impact, RAPM which includes both RS and playoffs. Here are LeBron's numbers:

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/

2014 (+0.25)
2013 (+1.22)
2012 (+1.89)
2011 (+2.01)
2010 (+2.39)
2009 (+2.16)
2008 (+1.23)

As a comparison to the league's RAPM leader
2014 (+4.55) Kevin Garnett
2013 (+6.53) Kevin Garnett
2012 (+5.61) Kevin Garnett
2011 (+5.74) Kevin Garnett
2010 (+4.59) Kevin Garnett
2009 (+5.01) Kevin Garnett
2008 (+3.97) Chuck Hayes

Again, not 1 defensive metric is 100% accurate barometer of defensive impact, but there are more advanced stats than less that show that LeBron is an overrated defender, much like Kobe.

[Senior]

Something I've noticed a lot in Kobe discussions is that he gets knocked for playing with Shaq and then he gets knocked again for not putting up the wild stats that another player did, which isn't exactly fair.

Based on his all-around ability from 01 onward I think he could've put up similar numbers 06-08 Lebron did (maybe 1-2 less rebounds and a few more points). Stick 01 Kobe on a team like Memphis or Chicago (they're better than those Cleveland teams but you get the idea) and I think they're championship teams or at worst contenders.

[colts18]

For those in the LeBron is an elite defender train, since he is such a stat sheet stuffer let's take a closer look at one of the famed categories for determining defensive impact, RAPM which includes both RS and playoffs. Here are LeBron's numbers:

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/

2014 (+0.25)
2013 (+1.22)
2012 (+1.89)
2011 (+2.01)
2010 (+2.39)
2009 (+2.16)
2008 (+1.23)

As a comparison to the league's RAPM leader
2014 (+4.55) Kevin Garnett
2013 (+6.53) Kevin Garnett
2012 (+5.61) Kevin Garnett
2011 (+5.74) Kevin Garnett
2010 (+4.59) Kevin Garnett
2009 (+5.01) Kevin Garnett
2008 (+3.97) Chuck Hayes

Again, not 1 defensive metric is 100% accurate barometer of defensive impact, but there are more advanced stats than less that show that LeBron is an overrated defender, much like Kobe.

You have to compare LeBron's defensive RAPM numbers to other perimeter players. He ranks pretty well when doing that.

I'm not sure how you can call Duncan an elite 2 way player when his offense was slightly above average just like LeBron's defense. LeBron's defensive RAPM numbers are around the same numbers that KG/Duncan were putting on offense.

[andrewww]

Also I forgot to add on, just how good Charles Barkley was on the offensive glass. For three straight seasons he led the league in offensive rebounds

1986-1987- 390 offensive rebounds
1987-1988- 385 offensive rebounds
1988-1989- 403 offensive rebounds

For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds

1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260

This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.

Will add this to the original post.

Stat was an amazing scorer, McAdoo too (though for a much shorter stretch), but none of them come close to ranking near a Karl Malone nor does Barkley for me. Why not?

(a) Defense, obviously. Barkley was awful. I watched him for years and while he was good at holding post position, he could be shot over fairly easily and he was clueless at rotations frequently not even looking the right direction, at least through his Philly years.

(b) Leadership. I remember reading Jayson Williams's book about how Barkley would be out in the bars until 4A the night before a game and taking other players with him. Barkley was blessed with a ridiculous constitution that could deal with the alcohol apparently; not true of everyone else. Then there were the racist comments in the locker room, the encouragement of skipping practices . . . people said, "That's just Charles being Charles," but that sort of BS adds up.

I probably shouldn't encourage this sort of post though . . . if you have no intention of truly considering a player, can we wait until you might actually think of voting for him to bring him up? I could be convinced to vote for Mikan here if someone could make the real case; I couldn't be convinced to vote for Karl Malone yet. Throwing out names like . . . gee, Shawn Marion should get top 100 consideration, at this point just sidetracks the discussion and you end up just cutting, pasting, and quoting yourself later on.

Wait so you're telling me throwing out Karl Malone's name, who was voted 13 in the last project just sidetracks from the disscusion? In what way does that make any sense? So Kg or Hakeem can be brought up as early as two and four(When it's clear neither will be voted that high), but it sidetracks from the conversation to bring up Malone at #7?

Are you really attempting to bring up Amare's name, when he has no where near the elite efficiency that Barkley had, despite playing with Steve Nash for the majority of his career? Thats like bringing up Marc Gasol's defense when we're talking about Mutumbo. When you talk about Barkley it's not just a great scorer, it's a great scorer who scored on Shaq level effiency who did it against an extremy high amount of double teams, and defenses focusing in on stopping him. What relevance does he have to this conversation when as a scorer Amare didnt even ever develop a post game? Not to mention he wasn't exposed to a quarter of the double teams that Barkley faced in his career.

B) Anyone can bring up selective quotes about a players leadership. In fact i'll quote one right now about Garnett's leadership.


"I tell a story about -- we were in the locker room when KG was in like his third year in the league, and Sam Mitchell was sitting in the locker room," Saunders said. "KG was in there, and we had lost a couple games, and we were all sitting there talking.

"KG started going, 'Hey, you've got to start doing more.' And he's talking to some of the bench guys. 'You've got to start doing more.' And Sam said, 'Hey, hold it, hold it. Let me tell you something. You're making all the money. Hey, it's your responsibility. You make the money, you've got to live up to that.' So, that was the mentality, and from that time, KG never ever from that point, he always took responsibility."

That Amare reference couldn't be further from the truth.

Barkley's career TS% is at .612 whereas Amare is at .597.

Barkley was elite obviously, but Amare is very much in the discussion.

[Colbinii]

Well I have a problem with using AST% for passing because it says more about your role than your passing. Bird was w PF for most of his career and he played in what was basically Princeton offense.

LeBron played a majority of PF the last couple seasons and still blew Bird away in AST%.

He was never the passing hub like Lebron

You are right, and Bird still averaged MORE turnovers % while having a lower usage. There is no way Bird would increase his assists to LeBron's % while his Turnovers stay the same, that is illogical to assume. We can safely assume that Bird wouldn't be as efficient as LeBron is at that usage.

Rebounding wise Magic would have way higher averages if he never played PG. All things considered Magic was about even on the defensive boards but on the offensive boards he was better.

LeBron has played Point Guard for a large sum of his career as well. If he played in the post more, I am sure he would have even more rebounds. It is foolish to use excuses for one player when they apply to the other. When LeBron has had to rebound, he averaged over

Magic's Post-Season PER 100 rebounding numbers for his career: 9.5
LeBron's Post-Season PER 100 rebounding numbers for his career: 10.9

LeBron's Post-Season career TRB%: 12.2%
Magic's Post-Season career TRB%: 10.9%

I really don't see a case for Magic being a better rebounder.

LeBron elevates his game more in the post-season than Magic did.

[magicmerl]

Wait so you're telling me throwing out Karl Malone's name, who was voted 13 in the last project just sidetracks from the disscusion? In what way does that make any sense? So Kg or Hakeem can be brought up as early as two and four(When it's clear neither will be voted that high), but it sidetracks from the conversation to bring up Malone at #7?

I disagree with posting about a player in order to strategically position him for future slots (so that he has more 'momentum' when he reaches his right place).

The three players who have been 'reaches' thus far have been Russell (a number of players, including myself, voted for him for #1, when he fell to 3rd), Hakeem and KG. I think that the supporters of Hakeem and Garnett were making genuine arguments for their player at the particular vote they were considering.

Unless you are seriously voting for a player at #7, I think it's disingenuous to 'introduce' him in this thread as a way of potentially bolstering his chances at #12 (or whatever slot you'd like to see him voted in at).

Please note that doing this (posting about a player when they aren't serious candidates) may actually HURT your candidates chances. For example, I think that it's plausible that Hakeem could get serious consideration at or around this slot, but because so much has already been posted about him, it's very hard not to 'switch off' when you see what feel like the same posts regurgitated by the same posters.

If you think that Karl Malone is genuinely the best candidate for this slot, then by all means, make posts that directly compare him to the other players being considered. That will contribute to the discussion in this thread.

[Purch]

Stat was an amazing scorer, McAdoo too (though for a much shorter stretch), but none of them come close to ranking near a Karl Malone nor does Barkley for me. Why not?

(a) Defense, obviously. Barkley was awful. I watched him for years and while he was good at holding post position, he could be shot over fairly easily and he was clueless at rotations frequently not even looking the right direction, at least through his Philly years.

(b) Leadership. I remember reading Jayson Williams's book about how Barkley would be out in the bars until 4A the night before a game and taking other players with him. Barkley was blessed with a ridiculous constitution that could deal with the alcohol apparently; not true of everyone else. Then there were the racist comments in the locker room, the encouragement of skipping practices . . . people said, "That's just Charles being Charles," but that sort of BS adds up.

I probably shouldn't encourage this sort of post though . . . if you have no intention of truly considering a player, can we wait until you might actually think of voting for him to bring him up? I could be convinced to vote for Mikan here if someone could make the real case; I couldn't be convinced to vote for Karl Malone yet. Throwing out names like . . . gee, Shawn Marion should get top 100 consideration, at this point just sidetracks the discussion and you end up just cutting, pasting, and quoting yourself later on.

Wait so you're telling me throwing out Karl Malone's name, who was voted 13 in the last project just sidetracks from the disscusion? In what way does that make any sense? So Kg or Hakeem can be brought up as early as two and four(When it's clear neither will be voted that high), but it sidetracks from the conversation to bring up Malone at #7?

Are you really attempting to bring up Amare's name, when he has no where near the elite efficiency that Barkley had, despite playing with Steve Nash for the majority of his career? Thats like bringing up Marc Gasol's defense when we're talking about Mutumbo. When you talk about Barkley it's not just a great scorer, it's a great scorer who scored on Shaq level effiency who did it against an extremy high amount of double teams, and defenses focusing in on stopping him. What relevance does he have to this conversation when as a scorer Amare didnt even ever develop a post game? Not to mention he wasn't exposed to a quarter of the double teams that Barkley faced in his career.

B) Anyone can bring up selective quotes about a players leadership. In fact i'll quote one right now about Garnett's leadership.


"I tell a story about -- we were in the locker room when KG was in like his third year in the league, and Sam Mitchell was sitting in the locker room," Saunders said. "KG was in there, and we had lost a couple games, and we were all sitting there talking.

"KG started going, 'Hey, you've got to start doing more.' And he's talking to some of the bench guys. 'You've got to start doing more.' And Sam said, 'Hey, hold it, hold it. Let me tell you something. You're making all the money. Hey, it's your responsibility. You make the money, you've got to live up to that.' So, that was the mentality, and from that time, KG never ever from that point, he always took responsibility."

That Amare reference couldn't be further from the truth.

Barkley's career TS% is at .612 whereas Amare is at .597.

Barkley was elite obviously, but Amare is very much in the discussion.

That would be a legitimate point if you didn't ignore the fact that even though Amare played with Nash every year of his prime, he wasn't able to achieve nearly the efficiency of Barkley, who was the focus of teams defenses and faced double teams on a nightly basis.