The One And Only Offseason Thread 3

[bwgood77]

I might be swimming against the current on this, but I'm moving away from supporting the whole stretch 4 concept. It looks great on paper, and stats seem to suggest that it is the way to go, but the Suns have had very poor success when using a stretch 4. Since Frye became our stretch 4 in 2010 Sums haven't been to the playoffs one time (4 years). There are many reasons besides Frye we didn't make the playoffs, but regardless the stretch 4 concept didn't work in Phoenix.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what I think though. McD seems to be totally on board with the Stretch 4 concept so the matter is pretty much closed.

I guess it really depends on whether you like our setup with our guards last year or not. Dragic, for example, and Bledsoe maybe even to a larger extent, would not have been nearly as effective without a stretch 4.

Think of Dragic the year before with Gortat and Scola. 25 wins. You talk about not making the playoffs. But we are talking 48 wins vs 25. I really doubt Bledsoe's game works nearly as well either because he is a worse outside shooter and needs to drive...with two bigs in the middle he would struggle more than Dragic because he is less crafty.

Agree completely on our PG set up. This team is completely built around the "stretch 4" concept, and without that neither Goran nor Eric would have been nearly as effective last year and Suns would not have won as many games. Having a PF who only has the ability to shoot 3's, and no other offensive (or defensive) skill set is not a winning formula.

Well it is a winning formula since we were 48-34, but it wasn't good enough in the west this year. We do need more rebounding and D on the interior though. If we had that last year, we could have gone far.

[drewsprocket]

The stretch 4 has been around and isn't going anywhere. You can be a star or a mere role player. It's a pragmatic approach when you have the ability to exploit the paint better. I think the thing is that you can't really build around a stretch without being able to get into the paint. That's when the Mavs actually won.:
Dirk was the supreme stretch = made it to the finals twice and one once
Red Rocket - Spurs
Barkley in his last years was stretch 4
Terry Mills
Bosh - with Miami played that role
Robert Horry - LA and Rockets
Sonics - Sam Perkins tore it up as stretch
Chuck Persons
Detlef
Sabonis would hit the big shot too
Uncle Cliff
Rodney Rogers

Lamar Odom PF - another stretch/point power forward - was brilliant and instrumental under Jackson
Hedo Turk & Rashard Lewis - For the Magic both I would consider bigs - both stretched out the floor for Howard

[GetYourPHX]

Diaw played the stretch 4 for us for an entire year when Amare went down. That was one of the most exciting years of Suns basketball!

Although he shot more long two's than threes.

[ShawnBronald]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RHillskills/status/489259117530591232[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/RHillskills/status/489259840175636480[/tweet]

And then this....
[tweet]https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine/status/489262219327074307[/tweet]

[Moochthemonkey]

Diaw played the stretch 4 for us for an entire year when Amare went down. That was one of the most exciting years of Suns basketball!

That was mainly Tim Thomas/Marion

[Cutter]

Was 2010 not part of the stretch 4 era? I also seem to recall starting Tim Thomas in the 2006 play off run....

I almost used 2010 as well as an example because I remembered Grant Hill trying to take 3s, but then I also remember Lopez starting so although we likely played some it that way, we often had a more traditional lineup.

But the funny thing is, what made us GREAT that year was our bench. And guess who was on it? DRAGIC AND FRYE!

Definitely 2006 we played that way.

In my own personal definition of stretch 4 I think of someone who's primary job is to camp out on the 3 point line and wait for your shot. Most of these players are highly assisted and plays are run to get them open behind the arc. A recent example was Markieff Morris when Alvin Gentry was the coach. Gentry had him camped out on the 3P line trying to make him a 3. point shooter. First thing Hornacek did was get him down into the post. It doesn't mean that Markieff doesn't shoot 3's anymore, it just means he is more balanced and gets his points in the paint, mid range and long ball. Other pure examples of stretch 4 are Frye, Love, Illysova, Steve Novak, Matt Bonner. These players are offensively basically 3 point shooters, with not much ability to score in other ways.

Just because someone attempts 3 point shots doesn't mean they are a stretch. In 2006 Tim Thomas, in 16 games with the Suns, made 45 3P. That fairly low volume, but at a very good efficiency of 43.9%. In my own mental definition he would not qualify as a stretch 4. Shawn Marion doesn't either.


Here is a very good link to a discuss to the admittedly murky definition of a stretch 4.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24088180/stretch4s-in-the-nba-the-balance-between-stretching-and-defense

[Daredevilish]

I'm coming around to the idea that the Morri could take a step up this year. They're both still young and they have a lot to prove. I think they could be up to the challenge. For Markieff all he needs to do is be credible from 3 and the D will respect him enough.

I'd much rather avoid gutting our roster and best players (Dragic and Bledsoe) in hopes of finding a stretch four who puts us over the top. Let's let the Morri develop and if they're not doing so hot by December or January, then we can reevaluate and either trade to improve or let our young players develop during the season and make a play at a free agent next summer.

We're not winning a championship with this roster, I think we all know that. With how good the West is, we may not make the playoffs even if everyone steps up their game. But none of the trades that we can feasibly pull off will make us better than what we are now, and most will make us much much worse.

Sign Bledsoe, pick up a backup PF (maybe a veteran who can teach the Morri some moves) and be done.

[bwgood77]

I agree, I think the twins could turn into the players to compensate for what Frye provided.

[Frank Lee]

People will forget about Frye quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes a month of no playing time.

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.....since another forward they have (Aaron Gordon) can't shoot either and will likely not be able to stretch much at all.

I am pretty interested in watching them actually. Of course I am a Cats fan and there are two of them, but I think Frye and Gordon will complement each other well. Frye is a stretch 4 and can hit free throws, and Aaron Gordon can defend, hit rebounds and dunk. I think Frye stretching another big away from the basket should also set up some nice alley-oops from Payton or Dipo to Gordon.

.....

Maybe Frye will get more assists 'off the rim' to Gordan than the conventional way.

And really Fryebaby should keep his pie hole shut being that the Suns paid him 6 mil to practice yoga and Putt Putt... then pretty much resurrected his career by letting him chuck to his hearts delight. Will not miss him, no matter what the Stat guys say about it.

[Sunsdeuce]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RHillskills/status/489259840175636480[/tweet]

Yeah, don't know that you build a team "outside in" is a smart move. Almost have to reword what he wrote. Should probably say, "go small and go home." Don't know any contending team that is built to play small ball, I mean really really small ball like what he is saying the suns are going to do.

Think what I am saying is, if I had to build a team I would start with the "bigs" before I move to getting the small players.

This upcoming season is really scary. Regardless of the success of last year, still think this team is unknown. Could be a success or a disappointment. As things Stand now, I think without any bigs, this team is going to disappoint a few of you guys. Basically I'm hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

[drewsprocket]

Some guys' primary skill is only camping and taking threes. Other's have other value and could play that role wherein they stretch out defending bigs to the perimeter. Nothing to get caught up on by definition. The point behind Frye was we were able to create that additional space. ****, even Marion waited in the corner 3pt line while Amare and Nash played the pick and roll. The beauty was that Marion could pass up the shot and slash closer with his flick shot or quick jam. God I miss those days. I'm still fuming that Sarver didn't want to overpay one year with JJ as a Max. We could have played a year or 2 with him in the luxury and traded him off still.

[i505]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RHillskills/status/489259117530591232[/tweet]

I personally wish it wasn't true, but this is a real possibility from what I hear. Ugh.

[gaspar]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine/status/489267128647049216[/tweet]

[Cutter]

Diaw played the stretch 4 for us for an entire year when Amare went down. That was one of the most exciting years of Suns basketball!

Although he shot more long two's than threes.

Right on the money on the long twos' for Diaw.

He wasn't much of a stretch 4 though. I just checked basketballreference.com and in the 4 different seasons Diaw played for the Suns the highest attempts he had was 0.8 3P attempts per game at average/below efficiency. Diaw was always a very low volume 3P shooter.

[Sunsdeuce]

Morris is not going to replicate what frye did. Frye was very good at a few things associated with three point shooting better than most bigs.

1) he has a very high point of release. Hard to block those type of shots

2) he also had an insanely fast release to his shot. Also hard for defenders to run to him off of pick and rolls.

3) great pick and roll three point shooter

Morris is none of those things. He is a decent three point shooter if he gets some time to set before he shoots. He isn't good shooting the three off a pick and roll. His release is pretty slow. There is no way Morris is going to duplicate fryes abilities.


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[Revived]

Ok I want to make myself clear, I made a mistake in my earlier posts.

I'm not interested in trading Bledsoe for Henson. HOWEVER, I am very interested in trading for Henson in a separate deal. I think Bledsoe-Henson can be a good combo for the Suns.

We can trade that Minnesota pick plus Ennis if the Bucks want a young PG. Maybe we can sell them on the fact that Ennis has looked decent in SL.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

This upcoming season is really scary. Regardless of the success of last year, still think this team is unknown. Could be a success or a disappointment. As things Stand now, I think without any bigs, this team is going to disappoint a few of you guys. Basically I'm hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

Well, you could take solace in the fact that Isaiah Thomas will be playing all of Ish Smith's and Leandro Barbosa's minutes, or in the fact that young players generally improve year-to-year in their early 20's. It's funny that all our anxieties boil down to losing one average to above-average player. On balance, I think there's far more reason to be optimistic than pessimistic. Undoubtedly, I'd rather be a Suns fan right now than just about any other team in the western conference. I like the Jazz's roster, and it'd be fun to be a Spurs or Thunder fan I suppose, but plenty to worry about for both of them too!

[Revived]

Couldn't we just absorb his salary due to the amount of cap space we have?

If Love is off the table, I'm not opposed to getting David Lee. Not thrilled, but not opposed.

You mean just absorb his salary and send out a 2nd round pick or something? I guess we could, but all along I've been saying I'd never accept the GS offer because the Lee contract has negative value and Barnes sucked last year.

Lee helps us with rebounding but that is it. The whole point GS wants to trade for Love is because they want a stretch 4 which is what we REALLY need moreso than GS even, because their guards are MUCH better shooters than ours.

I might be swimming against the current on this, but I'm moving away from supporting the whole stretch 4 concept. It looks great on paper, and stats seem to suggest that it is the way to go, but the Suns have had very poor success when using a stretch 4. Since Frye became our stretch 4 in 2010 Sums haven't been to the playoffs one time (4 years). There are many reasons besides Frye we didn't make the playoffs, but regardless the stretch 4 concept didn't work in Phoenix.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what I think though. McD seems to be totally on board with the Stretch 4 concept so the matter is pretty much closed.

Lol your lucky Los Soles didn't see this post otherwise he'd roast you

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RHillskills/status/489259117530591232[/tweet]

I personally wish it wasn't true, but this is a real possibility from what I hear. Ugh.

From what you hear??

Are we to believe that we're lowballing Eric in an effort to force him to look elsewhere for max money, so that we might make a deal? Why do we not want to pay him? Is it the injuries??

We wouldn't dare do this without getting a draft pick back, would we? Am I the only one not particularly impressed by Henson?

Ugh indeed.

[gaspar]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine/status/489272192509558785[/tweet]