RealGM Top 100 LIST- 2014

D Nice · Post #221 » by **D Nice** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:37 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
D Nice wrote:Yeah go ahead and strike me from the voter panel. I was pretty enthused at the beginning but there's a bit too much intellectual dishonesty and not enough quality controls to ensure productive discourse all the way through. KG getting a 4th place vote(s) was kind of a smack in the face (and insulting to the sport). For me to dedicate 1-2 hours per thread (at least) after working 10-12 hour days I need to feel like that commitment is worth it and the project stopped feeling like that after the 3rd thread.

As the dude who gave KG the 4th place vote, this really bums me out.

Whatever you think of me, know that I have a reverence for the sport and that I've spent an obscene amount of time working to make sense of it for that reason.

Hrm? It was drza. I stopped reading the thread after that. I actually had no idea you voted 4th for KG.

FWIW I think the world of your basketball takes. It's just not a process I want my "name" on without certain controls (templates or something of the sort), that's all. Something with more degrees of uniformity, less arbitrary, that can still further discussion. I know its really hard. I just think it deserves more time ironing out, and that the actual date you get started matters less. Maybe next time.

HeartBreakKid · Post #222 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:05 am

Okay, here is something I think people need to wrap their heads around, as I have worked on similar projects before.

People will have different opinions from you, people will argue with you, and eventually people will be fresh with each other.

This does not mean the project needs to be closed or there needs to be screening (how would we even screen people, it would just become a club at that point).

No one here has an ulterior agenda. If someone thinks Dirk is the 8th best player of all time, he is no more bias than someone who thinks Michael Jordan is the #1 best player of all time. What we are debating is subjective, the facts are only there to help weight peoples opinions - it is arbitrary to say that some votes should not count because people are being bias, when everyone is in fact bias.

Now, if someone is being stubborn and doesn't care to read anyone else post, that's well with in their right. It is a list to decide the realgm's top 100, if someone thinks a certain player is better than another player and they don't care what anyone else thinks, it's fine if they ignore everyone else. In my personal opinion, they are missing out by doing that, but it isn't ruining anything really.

ReaLiez · Post #223 » by **ReaLiez** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:12 am

too late to join??

lukekarts · Post #224 » by **lukekarts** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:45 am

[

Spoiler:

Penbeast, I've missed the start of this due to holiday. I did participate in the last round and I'm sure you know me from here and the T&T games board. I would very much like to participate; or at the very least offer input into the discussion.

john248 · Post #225 » by **john248** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:21 am

I missed the last couple rounds due to getting my wisdom tooth pulled out. Back now though. Some people are too sensitive. The discussion has been fine. If someone sounds like a broken record (or being a politician), I generally just scroll past it.

Baller2014 · Post #226 » by **Baller2014** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:30 am

This obviously isn't urgent, but can we clean up the OP? It's a bit of a mess right now, and the names look messy- can't we hyperlink the names like Baller24 did in the previous project? Also the top 4 names are printed twice. I am happy to do the work for this so it can just be copy pasted in.

ardee · Post #227 » by **ardee** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:47 am

I think something needs to be done about RAPM.

I don't regard the stat as anything but useless considering the ridiculous results given, but I don't have a problem with other people using it (as long as it's not the only base of their argument).

My issue is the threads turning into a discussion that belongs on the stats board because the people who believe in RAPM are trying to cram it down the throats of those who don't. I think it's all right if people want to use it as a part of their discussion, but pages of posts that simply sing praises of RAPM as a stat, not in the context of the player being discussed, is useless and distracting.

ardee · Post #228 » by **ardee** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:49 am

And an aside:

I'm not going to leave the project, I've been waiting for it for too long, but I agree with D Nice. Some of the KG stuff is ruining the credibility of the project.

therealbig3 · Post #229 » by **therealbig3** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:02 am

I feel like people are being unnecessarily combative, just because the discussion is going in a direction they didn't plan on. It's pretty...weird.

I haven't really seen anyone say "so and so has a better RAPM, so they're better"...it's always been qualitative analysis that yes, uses RAPM, but shows a wide variety of APM/RAPM consistently showing the same thing, IN ADDITION to other pieces of evidence, which is why they give support to a certain player. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you can explain why the strong results are the result of an awesome player being awesome and not something else...and I've seen that. The counter-arguments really aren't doing much for me, tbh.

I also don't understand the whole "this is ruining the credibility of the project" stance. Argue the points in that case and show us why it's ridiculous. Only two people have actually voted for KG so far (drza and Doctor MJ), and one more person has thrown a lot of support his way (ElGee)...and all 3 of them have provided a ton of analysis and support for their position, so it's a little insulting to say that supporting KG is ruining the credibility of the project, when honestly, their posts have been some of the best, most in-depth, and most well-researched posts in the project (and that's been acknowledged by a lot of other posters). It's clearly quality posting, and it's clearly well-supported reasoning...if anything, it improves the credibility of the project.

What ruins the credibility of the project is to basically throw a hissy-fit when things aren't going your way.

john248 · Post #230 » by **john248** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:25 am

I don't have an issue with someone wanting KG as #4 as long as there's a reason. I don't agree with it, but I still read it. Some of the advanced stats discussion does derail the thread though. I wouldn't mind reading it here in this thread nor do I mind reading it as part of someone's breakdown about a player, but the discussion about it alone when I just want to read about something new about a player really does get in the way. I just got done skimming through most of #7. I did get swayed into ranking Lebron higher.

D Nice · Post #231 » by **D Nice** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:48 am

From 2000-2005 KG was better than Kobe 5/6 years, but only during 2 or 3 of these years ('02, '04, perhaps '00) is there a large gap in Garnett's favor. From 2006-2010 Kobe was better than Garnett every single year. Furthermore, only the first two of these seasons could be construed as "close," and even then, the 2006 and 2007 gaps are at least as large as 2000 and 2002. From 2011-2013 Kobe is clearly not the player he was before, but it still better than Garnett every year. Arguably significantly so.

So Kevin Garnett > Kobe Bryant makes little sense. Kevin Garnett > Duncan makes no sense. KG > Shaq/Hakeem/Magic/etc does not seem fathomable under any rational set of constraints. How can he leapfrog ALL of those players SIMULTANEOUSLY under any single set of criteria that isn't going to be extremely limiting.

And YES, the overwhelming burden of scrutiny lies with anyone who would push Garnett as one of the 10 best players ever so them being more verbose in their arguments is unsurprising. Niche takes always require extra selling, that's why they are niche. Most of the time they are barking up the wrong tree and/or already done better by someone else. If you choose to present a stance that is diametrically opposed to an ARRAY of accepted truths then that is your prerogative. But you can't detach yourself from reality and at the same time be upset when everybody in the room doesn't want to float up into the clouds with you solely on the basis of your "calculations." Wanting the stance to be considered as "just another argument" is...the nicest way I could characterize it would be naive.

I'm part of a 3-person algorithm development team and a 4-person predictive modeling team, so this is more or less what I spend my entire days doing (with quite a bit more at stake than internet basketball popularity). We as a group (5 of us, me and one other guy double) are at least the analytic backbone of our process, 90% of the time the decisions are made by the time the work is done (although these days it's mostly about avoiding degradation and other "maintenance" stuff). Forgive me if I don't want to come home and entertain angst as I read posts trying to convince me Kevin Garnett is somehow a better player than Hakeem Olajuwon because of some stats that came out 3 years after his prime ended.

Stop derailing the thread and making it about me when all I did was bow out as respectfully as I could. I guess I should have just lied and said it was 100% my schedule and not given a project-related explanation. Now I know. But the only "whining" is posters being passive aggressive and telling me I should be OK fully investing in AND rubber-stamping a process that lacks a discernible valuation template just because a few of the takes came from sources I know to be intelligent. Nobody bats 1.000. Sometimes you come up with nothing but air.

And apparently team performance can now be dismissed as "qualitative." That's rich.

Baller2014 · Post #232 » by **Baller2014** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:57 am

I don't get the complaining either. Right now it looks to me like KG is going to get voted in at 11. That's roughly where he belongs. Seems fair to me.

ardee · Post #233 » by **ardee** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:00 pm

D Nice wrote:From 2000-2005 KG was better than Kobe 5/6 years, but only during 2 or 3 of these years ('02, '04, perhaps '00) is there a large gap in Garnett's favor. From 2006-2010 Kobe was better than Garnett every single year. Furthermore, only the first two of these seasons could be construed as "close," and even then, the 2006 and 2007 gaps are at least as large as 2000 and 2002. From 2011-2013 Kobe is clearly not the player he was before, but it still better than Garnett every year. Arguably significantly so.

So Kevin Garnett > Kobe Bryant makes little sense. Kevin Garnett > Duncan makes no sense. KG > Shaq/Hakeem/Magic/etc does not seem fathomable under any rational set of constraints. How can he leapfrog ALL of those players SIMULTANEOUSLY under any single set of criteria that isn't going to be extremely limiting.

And YES, the overwhelming burden of scrutiny lies with anyone who would push Garnett as one of the 10 best players ever so them being more verbose in their arguments is unsurprising. Niche takes always require extra selling, that's why they are niche. Most of the time they are barking up the wrong tree and/or already done better by someone else. If you choose to present a stance that is diametrically opposed to an ARRAY of accepted truths then that is your prerogative. But you can't detach yourself from reality and at the same time be upset when everybody in the room doesn't want to float up into the clouds with you solely on the basis of your "calculations." Wanting the stance to be considered as "just another argument" is...the nicest way I could characterize it would be naive.

I'm part of a 3-person algorithm development team and a 4-person predictive modeling team, so this is more or less what I spend my entire days doing (with quite a bit more at stake than internet basketball popularity). We as a group (5 of us, me and one other guy double) are at least the analytic backbone of our process, 90% of the time the decisions are made by the time the work is done (although these days it's mostly about avoiding degradation and other "maintenance" stuff). Forgive me if I don't want to come home and entertain angst as I read posts trying to convince me Kevin Garnett is somehow a better player than Hakeem Olajuwon because of some stats that came out 3 years after his prime ended.

Stop derailing the thread and making it about me when all I did was bow out as respectfully as I could. I guess I should have just lied and said it was 100% my schedule and not given a project-related explanation. Now I know. But the only "whining" is posters being passive aggressive and telling me I should be OK fully investing in AND rubber-stamping a process that lacks a discernible valuation template just because a few of the takes came from sources I know to be intelligent. Nobody bats 1.000. Sometimes you come up with nothing but air.

And apparently team performance can now be dismissed as "qualitative." That's rich.

This project is going to be worse without you.

Maybe you could come back after this KG thing is done with and he is voted in?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Post #234 » by **penbeast0** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:21 pm

Baller2014 wrote:This obviously isn't urgent, but can we clean up the OP? It's a bit of a mess right now, and the names look messy- can't we hyperlink the names like Baller24 did in the previous project? Also the top 4 names are printed twice. I am happy to do the work for this so it can just be copy pasted in.

Sure, clean it up and post it here and I will paste it in if the links aren't working. They were when I posted Jordan but I haven't checked since then.

Baller2014 · Post #235 » by **Baller2014** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:22 pm

ardee wrote:This project is going to be worse without you.

Maybe you could come back after this KG thing is done with and he is voted in?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Because nobody will use APM after KG is voted in right?

Baller2014 · Post #236 » by **Baller2014** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:28 pm

Cool. Here's the cleaned up version. Much less eye achey IMO.

penbeast0 wrote: THE RealGM TOP 100 LIST of 2104

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. LeBron James

Rules: Vote for 1 player. You may change your vote as consensus emerges but if so, go back and EDIT YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Votes without analysis will not be counted. If, after 2 days, there is not a majority consensus, the top; 2 nominees will have a 1 day runoff election to determine the spot on our list. NBA/ABA only, no college, international play, ABL, or pre-NBA play considered.

ELIGIBLE VOTERS

1. penbeast0 (Wizards)
2. DoctorMJ (Lakers)
3. rrravenred (Bucks)
4. tsherkin (?Raptors?)
5. Nate33 (Wizards)

6. TrueLAFan (Clippers)
7. DQuinn1575 (Bulls)
8. Narigo (Bulls)
9. Kayess
10. bastillon (Rockets)

11. baller2014 (Spurs)
12. lorak
13. Texas Chuck (Mavs)
14. JordansBulls (Bulls)
15. Quotatious (Blazers)

16. Gregoire
17. Ardee (Lakers)
18. acrossthecourt
19. Dr Spaceman (Bulls)
20. SactoKingsFan (Kings)

21. Jaivl (OKC)
22. Heartbreakkid
23. Rich316
24. RSCD3_
25. colts18

26. fpliii (Lakers)
27. Dr. Positivity (Raptors)
28. Owly (Magic)
29. Notanoob (Pistons)
30. Okada (Cavs)

31. NyCeEv0
32. Tomas11 (Rockets)
33. therealbig3 (Nets)
34. drza (76ers)
35. 90sAllDecade (Rockets)

36. Mutnt
37. Moonbeam (Blazers)
38. 0_6
39. An Unbiased Fan (Lakers)
40. DannyNoonan1221 (Bulls)

41 trex_8063 (Bulls)
42. MacGill (Raptors)
43. PCProductions (Warriors)
44. GC Pantalones (Knicks)
45. magicmerl (Magic)

46. B_Creamy (Heat)
47. Greatness (Raptors)
48. batmana (Spurs)
49. DHodgkins (Celtics)
50. Basketballefan

51. aal04
52. ElGee (Celtics)
53. Warspite (Pistons)
54. ronnymac2 (Knicks)
55. Rico381 (GSW)

ADDED to Board at #3 DISCUSSION

56. RayBan-Sematra (?Lakers?)
57. Clyde Frazier (Knicks)

TO JOIN at #5 DISCUSSION
58. andrewww (Lakers)
59. john248

Thanks

Post #237 » by **penbeast0** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:28 pm

ardee wrote:I think something needs to be done about RAPM.

I don't regard the stat as anything but useless considering the ridiculous results given, but I don't have a problem with other people using it (as long as it's not the only base of their argument).

My issue is the threads turning into a discussion that belongs on the stats board because the people who believe in RAPM are trying to cram it down the throats of those who don't. I think it's all right if people want to use it as a part of their discussion, but pages of posts that simply sing praises of RAPM as a stat, not in the context of the player being discussed, is useless and distracting.

You may regard it as useless; others as holy writ. One way to not get bogged down in it I don't challenged the RAPM disciples on it when they post it but just read it, accept it as one element in people's decision making, and move on . . . you know, the way we do JB's posts on HCA (not trying to offend you JB so please don't take it as an slight).

I actually find dismissal of the 1960s as a weak era to be frustrating since I think it was appreciably more competitive than the 70s for sure, and probably the 80s as well due to the concentration of talent, particularly among bigs where the talent pool is thinner, and I admit I can't let some of those posts slide so . . . well, I might be a bit hypocrtitical in my advice. Ah well.

ardee · Post #238 » by **ardee** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:30 pm

Baller2014 wrote:
ardee wrote:This project is going to be worse without you.

Maybe you could come back after this KG thing is done with and he is voted in?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Because nobody will use APM after KG is voted in right?

Well it's the KG fans who use it like it's gospel. Doctor MJ is arguably the best poster on the board but his initial KG vote in thread 4 looks like an advertisement for RAPM, he even admitted it was the foundation of his argument.

They're the ones using it to argue for a player against other players for whom said statistics are not available. Once he's in hopefully common sense will prevail and there will be uniformity in criteria over eras.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Post #239 » by **penbeast0** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:30 pm

lukekarts wrote:
Spoiler:
penbeast0 wrote:THE RealGM TOP 100 LIST of 2104
1. Michael Jordan http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1330968
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1331477
3. Bill Russell http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1332342
4. Wilt Chamberlain http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1332741&p=40408455#p40408455
5. Tim Duncan http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1333351
6. Shaquille O'Neal http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1334350&p=40562446#p40562446
7. LeBron James http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1335339

Rules: Vote for 1 player. You may change your vote as consensus emerges but if so, go back and EDIT YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Votes without analysis will not be counted. If, after 2 days, there is not a majority consensus, the top; 2 nominees will have a 1 day runoff election to determine the spot on our list. NBA/ABA only, no college, international play, ABL, or pre-NBA play considered.

ELIGIBLE VOTERS

THE RealGM TOP 100 LIST of 2104
1. Michael Jordan viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1330968
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1331477
3. Bill Russell viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1332342
4. Wilt Chamberlain viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1332741&p=40408455#p40408455

Rules: Vote for 1 player. You may change your vote as consensus emerges but if so, go back and EDIT YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Votes without analysis will not be counted. If, after 2 days, there is not a majority consensus, the top; 2 nominees will have a 1 day runoff election to determine the spot on our list. NBA/ABA only, no college, international play, ABL, or pre-NBA play considered.

ELIGIBLE VOTERS

1. penbeast0 (Wizards)
2. DoctorMJ (Lakers)
3. rrravenred (Bucks)
4. tsherkin (?Raptors?)
5. Nate33 (Wizards)

6. TrueLAFan (Clippers)
7. DQuinn1575 (Bulls)
8. Narigo (Bulls)
9. Kayess
10. bastillon (Rockets)

11. baller2014 (Spurs)
12. lorak
13. Texas Chuck (Mavs)
14. JordansBulls (Bulls)
15. Quotatious (Blazers)

16. Gregoire
17. Ardee (Lakers)
18. acrossthecourt
19. Dr Spaceman (Bulls)
20. SactoKingsFan (Kings)

21. Jaivl (OKC)
22. Heartbreakkid
23. Rich316
24. RSCD3_
25. colts18

26. fpliii (Lakers)
27. Dr. Positivity (Raptors)
28. Owly (Magic)
29. Notanoob
30. Okada (Cavs)

31. NyCeEv0
32. Tomas11 (Rockets)
33. therealbig3 (Nets)
34. drza (76ers)
35. 90sAllDecade (Rockets)

36. Mutnt
37. Moonbeam (Blazers)
38. 0_6
39. An Unbiased Fan (Lakers)
40. DannyNoonan1221 (Bulls)

41 trex_8063 (Bulls)
42. MacGill (Raptors)
43. PCProductions (Warriors)
44. GC Pantalones (Knicks)
45. magicmerl (Magic)

46. B_Creamy (Heat)
47. Greatness (Raptors)
48. batmana (Spurs)
49. DHodgkins (Celtics)
50. Basketballefan

51. aal04
52. ElGee (Celtics)
53. Warspite (Pistons)
54. ronnymac2 (Knicks)
55. Rico381 (GSW)

ADDED to Board at #3 DISCUSSION

56. RayBan-Sematra (?Lakers?)
57. Clyde Frazier (Knicks)

TO JOIN at #5 DISCUSSION
58. andrewww (Lakers)
59. john248

Penbeast, I've missed the start of this due to holiday. I did participate in the last round and I'm sure you know me from here and the T&T games board. I would very much like to participate; or at the very least offer input into the discussion.

Luke, you are certainly a welcome addition to the project. You may certainly give your input and every two or three threads, I add posters like you that have (a) added to the discussion and (b) posted a joining request here or by PM.

Post #240 » by **Texas Chuck** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:40 pm

I hate the idea that people shouldn't be allowed to champion any player at any stage. Including KG. As long as they can back it up. I'm certainly enjoying the KG discussion I'm involved in with Doc MJ, drza, and therealbig3. It's civil and realbig3 and drza in particular have made some outstanding posts having nothing to do with RAPM helping to outline while they view KG in such high regard.

But getting mad because others view players differnetly, or champion a different method of player evaluation seems to go exactly against the spirit of this project. We are going to get to the non-Magic PG's eventually and I'm going to be championing Kidd and Stockton very highly against guys like Nash and Paul. And I expect to be in a really small minority when it comes to Kidd. But I should have the right to do so without people thinking I'm harming the integrity of the project because I have Jason Kidd 10-20 spots of where most guys do.

I love the diversity of opinions both in the players people rate differently and in the different methods of evaluation. I would hope anyone who no longer wishes to participate would instead stay and add their perspective as well.