The Marvin Gaye Williams Thread

[mrknowitall215]

Maybe it's just me, but I consider the fact that McRoberts was better than Williams in virtually every aspect (some by a wide margin like AST% & eFG%) and the only advantage Williams have over McRoberts is 3 points per 36 minutes due to a larger usage percentage, I have no choice but to view McRoberts as the superior player

Well I considered each of the stats that I discussed, which you apparently didn't feel compelled to take the time to read. If you're going to ignore them then that's your prerogative, but to continue to argue that based on advanced stats McRoberts is the superior three point shooter, rebounder and defender "by a wide margin" is objectively false.

I read everything you stated, and you didn't state anything wrong in your review. It's just that when I compare two players and one player has 'advantage, advantage, advantage, advantage, draw, advantage, advantage, draw, advantage, advantage', I tend to look at the player with '8 advantages to 2 draws' as the superior player as in a boxing match it would be a 'unanimous decision' even if each statistic advantage was just slight as a '10-9' score per round. That's all

[RichBoy923]

Defending:

Last year's stats - Williams had a D rating of 110 and McBob had a D rating of 105. Conversely, McBob had higher defensive win share numbers. Not sure what that means, paging someone with superior advanced stat creds.

Don't you want a lower Defensive Rating? The lower the better so that's how it would make sense.

[yosemiteben]

Facts - the difference between McRoberts and Marvin Williams in three point shooting, rebounding and defending are negligible. We essentially are paying a premium of $1.4M per year to have a worse passing McRoberts for two years instead of the better passing McRoberts for four. Given the addition of Lance, McRoberts's passing becomes less valuable. If our FO expects Vonleh and Zeller to be able to man the PF spot after two years (which is almost certainly the case), it makes some sense to go the Williams route.

I'm starting to think this was what the FO was thinking.

[yosemiteben]

Defending:

Last year's stats - Williams had a D rating of 110 and McBob had a D rating of 105. Conversely, McBob had higher defensive win share numbers. Not sure what that means, paging someone with superior advanced stat creds.

Don't you want a lower Defensive Rating? The lower the better so that's how it would make sense.

Doh, you're right.

[Elden Payton]

Facts - the difference between McRoberts and Marvin Williams in three point shooting, rebounding and defending are negligible. We essentially are paying a premium of $1.4M per year to have a worse passing McRoberts for two years instead of the better passing McRoberts for four. Given the addition of Lance, McRoberts's passing becomes less valuable. If our FO expects Vonleh and Zeller to be able to man the PF spot after two years (which is almost certainly the case), it makes some sense to go the Williams route.

I'm starting to think this was what the FO was thinking.

Makes sense to me

[yosemiteben]

Maybe it's just me, but I consider the fact that McRoberts was better than Williams in virtually every aspect (some by a wide margin like AST% & eFG%) and the only advantage Williams have over McRoberts is 3 points per 36 minutes due to a larger usage percentage, I have no choice but to view McRoberts as the superior player

Well I considered each of the stats that I discussed, which you apparently didn't feel compelled to take the time to read. If you're going to ignore them then that's your prerogative, but to continue to argue that based on advanced stats McRoberts is the superior three point shooter, rebounder and defender "by a wide margin" is objectively false.

I read everything you stated, and you didn't state anything wrong in your review. It's just that when I compare two players and one player has 'advantage, advantage, advantage, advantage, draw, advantage, advantage, draw, advantage, advantage', I tend to look at the player with '8 advantages to 2 draws' as the superior player as in a boxing match it would be a 'unanimous decision' even if each statistic advantage was just slight as a '10-9' score per round. That's all

That's fair, but you originally stated he was not just superior, but superior by a wide margin. You can't really read that his 3PT% is 0.2% higher and say that he's the superior three point shooter. Almost every category is a wash and there isn't a clear advantage, other than passing.

[Elden Payton]

Defending:

Last year's stats - Williams had a D rating of 110 and McBob had a D rating of 105. Conversely, McBob had higher defensive win share numbers. Not sure what that means, paging someone with superior advanced stat creds.

Don't you want a lower Defensive Rating? The lower the better so that's how it would make sense.

Doh, you're right.

Team defense affects DRtg.

Charlotte>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Utah

[mrknowitall215]

Well I considered each of the stats that I discussed, which you apparently didn't feel compelled to take the time to read. If you're going to ignore them then that's your prerogative, but to continue to argue that based on advanced stats McRoberts is the superior three point shooter, rebounder and defender "by a wide margin" is objectively false.

I read everything you stated, and you didn't state anything wrong in your review. It's just that when I compare two players and one player has 'advantage, advantage, advantage, advantage, draw, advantage, advantage, draw, advantage, advantage', I tend to look at the player with '8 advantages to 2 draws' as the superior player as in a boxing match it would be a 'unanimous decision' even if each statistic advantage was just slight as a '10-9' score per round. That's all

That's fair, but you originally stated he was not just superior, but superior by a wide margin. You can't really read that his 3PT% is 0.2% higher and say that he's the superior three point shooter. Almost every category is a wash and there isn't a clear advantage, other than passing.

I see where I may have made my error, and where we are having a miscommunication on this issue now. I worded it "McRoberts is the better 3-point shooter, the better rebounder, the better passer, and the better defender by a wide margin". I should've separated the part about the wide margin because I was specifically speaking on the defender portion when I put 'wide margin'. That's my mistake of poor usage in the sentence

[Elden Payton]

McBob is one of the worst post defenders in the NBA.

Opp. shot 58 percent at the rim against him.

[yosemiteben]

Ah, those pesky dangling modifiers.

Do you disagree that the differences in three point shooting, rebounding and defending are negligible between Marvin and Josh?

[mrknowitall215]

Ah, those pesky dangling modifiers.

Do you disagree that the differences in three point shooting, rebounding and defending are negligible between Marvin and Josh?

I wouldn't want to consider it negligible when McRoberts has a slight to apparent edge in each of those categories

[mrknowitall215]

McBob is one of the worst post defenders in the NBA.

Opp. shot 58 percent at the rim against him.

I got 53.9% http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefe ... D_RIM*LE*3

[Elden Payton]

McBob is one of the worst post defenders in the NBA.

Opp. shot 58 percent at the rim against him.

I got 53.9% http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefe ... D_RIM*LE*3

Sorry, 54 percent which is still horrific.

[yosemiteben]

Ah, those pesky dangling modifiers.

Do you disagree that the differences in three point shooting, rebounding and defending are negligible between Marvin and Josh?

I wouldn't want to consider it negligible when McRoberts has a slight to apparent edge in each of those categories

So if they shot 1000 three pointers, McRoberts would make just 2 more shots, but that difference is not negligible?

If they were on the floor for 100 shots, McRoberts would come away with just 1 more rebound, but that difference is not negligible?

McRoberts posted very similar defensive stats playing for a far superior defensive team with a far superior defensive coach.

I get you don't like him, and that's fine, but you're being a little ridiculous here.

[mrknowitall215]

Ah, those pesky dangling modifiers.

Do you disagree that the differences in three point shooting, rebounding and defending are negligible between Marvin and Josh?

I wouldn't want to consider it negligible when McRoberts has a slight to apparent edge in each of those categories

So if they shot 1000 three pointers, McRoberts would make just 2 more shots, but that difference is not negligible?

If they were on the floor for 100 shots, McRoberts would come away with just 1 more rebound, but that difference is not negligible?

McRoberts posted very similar defensive stats playing for a far superior defensive team with a far superior defensive coach.

I get you don't like him, and that's fine, but you're being a little ridiculous here.

McRoberts' career 3-point percentage is 34% to Williams' 33%

McRoberts' average 7.5 rebounds per 36 minutes to Williams' 6.3 rebounds

McRoberts' career defensive rating is 106 to Williams' 109

I know it may be close, but I see a advantage as a advantage

It's all semantics between us at this point where it's just a matter of how we view it

[mrknowitall215]

McBob is one of the worst post defenders in the NBA.

Opp. shot 58 percent at the rim against him.

I got 53.9% http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefe ... D_RIM*LE*3

Sorry, 54 percent which is still horrific.

Aye, I never stated that McRoberts was a good defender, but he was serviceable, and better than Marvin Williams overall at it

[Liver_Pooty]

I got 53.9% http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefe ... D_RIM*LE*3

Sorry, 54 percent which is still horrific.

Aye, I never stated that McRoberts was a good defender, but he was serviceable, and better than Marvin Williams overall at it

And Zeller is going to be a better defender than both of them.

[Elden Payton]

McBob has played PF/C his whole career and Marv spent a majority of his career at the SF spot.

The difference is negligible, when taken in context imo.

[yosemiteben]

McRoberts' career 3-point percentage is 34% to Williams' 33%

McRoberts' average 7.5 rebounds per 36 minutes to Williams' 6.3 rebounds

McRoberts' career defensive rating is 106 to Williams' 109

I know it may be close, but I see a advantage as a advantage

It's all semantics between us at this point where it's just a matter of how we view it

That's fine. My point is that Marvin Williams is not a significant step down in any of those areas. If you are pointing to (1) a 0.7% difference in their career 3PT%, (2) non-pace adjusted career rebounding numbers on a per 36 minute basis (I already showed how their true rebounding percentage is a wash), and (3) defensive stats that in part result from the dramatically different levels of team defense to dispute that claim, then I think you are being disingenuous.

The original reaction was "OMG Marvin Williams sucks, this is an absurd overpay!" Upon my further review, it's looking like a pretty reasonable calculated move. If you think McRoberts was worth 4 years at $5.5M, then given the make up of our team you should not have a huge problem with Marvin for 2 years at $7M.

[yosemiteben]

double post