RealGM Top 100 List #8

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#241 » by Baller2014 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:37 am

BallerTed wrote:In regards to Kobe and Bird

Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS%---- ORTG----DRTG----PER
Kobe --- '01-'09 --- 37.5 ---- 7.6 ---- 6.9 ----- .489 ----- .560 ---- 113 ---- 105 ---- 24.9
Bird ----- '80-'88 ---- 30.9 ----12.7 -----7.6 -----.519 -----570 ----116 ---- 101 ---- 24.5

Bird leads in all categories except for two with a clear edge in rebounding and also a convincing advantage as a passer/playmaker. Bird is more efficient but not by a ton. Kobe has the clear victory when it comes to raw PPG and a small edge in player efficiency rating. Defense is relatively close. I would give Kobe the edge as a man to man defender and Bird as a team/help defender. I tried to include their best 9-year stretch. I could easily have included more of Kobe's runs such as '10, but wanted to keep it even. This is a testament I think to Kobe's advantage in longevity over Bird.

Playoff Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS% ---- ORTG ---- DRTG ---- PER
Kobe ---- '01-'09 ---- 35.3 ---- 6.9 ---- 6.6 ----- .482 ----- .545 ---- 111 ---- 105 ---- 23.3
Bird ----- '80-'88 ---- 28.4 ---- 12.4 ----7.4 ---- .489 ----- .555 ---- 114 ---- 103 ---- 21.9

Almost the same story as the regular season stats. Kobe with the lead in raw PPG and PER. Bird with advantages as a rebounder and a playmaker with better efficiency. Overall I would have to give Bird the edge as the leader in more statistical categories over Kobe. Kobe's longevity does I think make up for some of it but I am not sure it is enough to close the gap between the two.


Not that I completely agree with this way of analysing players, but just to focus on one of Kobe's only "advantages". Kobe scored more points because he took more shots. I posted on Kobe's obsession with scoring 30ppg in earlier threads (and Phil Jackson and Jerry West's concern about it). If volume scoring is so important assumedly Adrian Dantley is coming right up, because he could score on Kobe's volume with vastly superior efficiency.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#242 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:46 am

magicmerl wrote:How are you determining prime? I just posted about primed comparing Magic, Bird and Hakeem, and I gotta tell you, those guys had some pretty good primes. If I was to extend that same harsh standard to Kobe's prime, his 'prime' would only last a single season (2006).

I'll repeat: Bird has four consecutive seasons approximately as good as Kobe's best season.

If you give Kobe credit for a prime from 00-13 (maaaaybe skipping 12, I don't know how low you are setting the bar), then by the same measure Bird's prime lasted from 80-90, barring his 6 game '89 campaign.


I'll be honest with you. I very loosely define peak and prime because I think defining these too carefully often does a disservice to players. I will always give a player the benefit of the doubt in regards to prime. But regardless of what we label a season doesnt change what happened and I like to look at a player's entire career and never just their "peak" or "prime".

All I was saying is that Kobe has played at a high level for at least 14 seasons. Now are all those seasons equal to each other? No, but I believe all 14 of them to be high quality NBA seasons and thus I think Kobe should get credit for all of them. By the same token I consider every season of Bird's career excepting 89 obviously to be a high quality NBA season. Obviously injuries took their toll and he wasnt as good at the end as he was throughout the 80s, but its hard for me to call 91 or 92 not really fine basketball seasons.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#243 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:50 am

Baller2014 wrote:Let's talk about Bird v.s Hakeem. Long before Bird had McHale or Parish and his super stacked team, Bird arrived as a mere rookie on a 29 win team. Nobody expected much of this team. He led them to 61 wins the next season with the same calibre of players (the few pluses and minuses basically even each other out). Where's the season I can find that saw Hakeem impact the game 32 wins? Never mind that Bird was a rookie, and he got better after his rookie season.




You've posted this a number of times now. And yes Bird had a tremendous rookie year. But let's move past that now. Especially since you are attempting to use that season to assign a specific number of wins being attributable directly to Bird and Bird alone. Unless you can provide us some convincing evidence of this being legit, well I find it hard to take seriously. The hyperbole actually ends up hurting your arguement here.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#244 » by An Unbiased Fan » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:56 am

Baller2014 wrote:
BallerTed wrote:In regards to Kobe and Bird

Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS%---- ORTG----DRTG----PER
Kobe --- '01-'09 --- 37.5 ---- 7.6 ---- 6.9 ----- .489 ----- .560 ---- 113 ---- 105 ---- 24.9
Bird ----- '80-'88 ---- 30.9 ----12.7 -----7.6 -----.519 -----570 ----116 ---- 101 ---- 24.5

Bird leads in all categories except for two with a clear edge in rebounding and also a convincing advantage as a passer/playmaker. Bird is more efficient but not by a ton. Kobe has the clear victory when it comes to raw PPG and a small edge in player efficiency rating. Defense is relatively close. I would give Kobe the edge as a man to man defender and Bird as a team/help defender. I tried to include their best 9-year stretch. I could easily have included more of Kobe's runs such as '10, but wanted to keep it even. This is a testament I think to Kobe's advantage in longevity over Bird.

Playoff Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS% ---- ORTG ---- DRTG ---- PER
Kobe ---- '01-'09 ---- 35.3 ---- 6.9 ---- 6.6 ----- .482 ----- .545 ---- 111 ---- 105 ---- 23.3
Bird ----- '80-'88 ---- 28.4 ---- 12.4 ----7.4 ---- .489 ----- .555 ---- 114 ---- 103 ---- 21.9

Almost the same story as the regular season stats. Kobe with the lead in raw PPG and PER. Bird with advantages as a rebounder and a playmaker with better efficiency. Overall I would have to give Bird the edge as the leader in more statistical categories over Kobe. Kobe's longevity does I think make up for some of it but I am not sure it is enough to close the gap between the two.


Not that I completely agree with this way of analysing players, but just to focus on one of Kobe's only "advantages". Kobe scored more points because he took more shots. I posted on Kobe's obsession with scoring 30ppg in earlier threads (and Phil Jackson and Jerry West's concern about it). If volume scoring is so important assumedly Adrian Dantley is coming right up, because he could score on Kobe's volume with vastly superior efficiency.

Kobe's assists are only 0.7 away from Bird's, yet he has 6+ more points. How can you say he "just scores more". Especially when you factor in defense.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#245 » by rich316 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:59 am

My vote for #8: Larry Bird.

He was the player of the 80s. I agree with the general consensus that has emerged with a closer examination of the Celtics v. Lakers rivalry of the era: Magic went to a stacked team and grew within it's structure, but Bird went to a team in transition and immediately became its leader. They have more or less equivalent longevity, and of the two, I believe Bird has been more underrated defensively. Until his injuries slowed him down in the late 80s, Bird was a valuable help defender. Defensively, I compare him to a slightly-poorer man's Jason Kidd at the forward position - not quick enough to stick on the quickest isolation scorers, but smart as hell, and with the hand-eye coordination and hand strength to get sneaky steals and end up in the right place at the right time. His peak stats are simply jaw-dropping, and really put in perspective how it's possible for a player to win three consecutive MVPs in uncontroversial fashion.

I like Hakeem a lot here, and will vote for him next if Bird is gone, but he strikes me as a player who just wasn't the type of guy who can be easily built around offensively. Bird's offensive game sets the table for a team built around ball movement, shooting, and space - the kind of team that can thrive in any era, against any opponent. Bird would probably be even better in today's era than he was in the 80s, which is saying quite a lot. Hakeem seems more a product of his era, the late-80s and early-90s era of paint-dominated play. Bird reached greater heights, and took the game to a place it hasn't been before, or really since.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#246 » by acrossthecourt » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:00 am

BallerTed wrote:In regards to Kobe and Bird

Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS%---- ORTG----DRTG----PER
Kobe --- '01-'09 --- 37.5 ---- 7.6 ---- 6.9 ----- .489 ----- .560 ---- 113 ---- 105 ---- 24.9
Bird ----- '80-'88 ---- 30.9 ----12.7 -----7.6 -----.519 -----570 ----116 ---- 101 ---- 24.5

Bird leads in all categories except for two with a clear edge in rebounding and also a convincing advantage as a passer/playmaker. Bird is more efficient but not by a ton. Kobe has the clear victory when it comes to raw PPG and a small edge in player efficiency rating. Defense is relatively close. I would give Kobe the edge as a man to man defender and Bird as a team/help defender. I tried to include their best 9-year stretch. I could easily have included more of Kobe's runs such as '10, but wanted to keep it even. This is a testament I think to Kobe's advantage in longevity over Bird.

Playoff Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS% ---- ORTG ---- DRTG ---- PER
Kobe ---- '01-'09 ---- 35.3 ---- 6.9 ---- 6.6 ----- .482 ----- .545 ---- 111 ---- 105 ---- 23.3
Bird ----- '80-'88 ---- 28.4 ---- 12.4 ----7.4 ---- .489 ----- .555 ---- 114 ---- 103 ---- 21.9

Almost the same story as the regular season stats. Kobe with the lead in raw PPG and PER. Bird with advantages as a rebounder and a playmaker with better efficiency. Overall I would have to give Bird the edge as the leader in more statistical categories over Kobe. Kobe's longevity does I think make up for some of it but I am not sure it is enough to close the gap between the two.

Yeah I really wouldn't want to rate Bird solely on PER ... PER is almost tailor-made for someone like Kobe, as it overrates volume shooting and doesn't pick up his lazy defense (he's got a few bad years in there.)

Dantley's PER over that timespan: 23.1.

So who do you have: Dantley or Bird?

There's a reason why Bird won three MVPs in a row while Kobe only got one, and that award some people argued was a career achievement award (they didn't want him to retire without one.)

Bird bests him in Win Shares per 48 minutes, by the way.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#247 » by Baller2014 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:16 am

Chuck Texas wrote:
Baller2014 wrote:Let's talk about Bird v.s Hakeem. Long before Bird had McHale or Parish and his super stacked team, Bird arrived as a mere rookie on a 29 win team. Nobody expected much of this team. He led them to 61 wins the next season with the same calibre of players (the few pluses and minuses basically even each other out). Where's the season I can find that saw Hakeem impact the game 32 wins? Never mind that Bird was a rookie, and he got better after his rookie season.




You've posted this a number of times now. And yes Bird had a tremendous rookie year. But let's move past that now. Especially since you are attempting to use that season to assign a specific number of wins being attributable directly to Bird and Bird alone. Unless you can provide us some convincing evidence of this being legit, well I find it hard to take seriously. The hyperbole actually ends up hurting your arguement here.

It's called cause and effect. Obviously in the case of basketball impact we can't 100% prove causation, but everyone else is using games with/without or minutes with/without as an argument for players, so I have no idea why it's not worth looking at. It's only circumstantial evidence, but so is the snow on the ground outside when I wake up. I can't prove it snowed, but it's pretty damn likely.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#248 » by Baller2014 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:18 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Kobe's assists are only 0.7 away from Bird's, yet he has 6+ more points. How can you say he "just scores more". Especially when you factor in defense.

Oh, I didn't say he scored more. I said he shoots more. Bird is the better scorer.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#249 » by 90sAllDecade » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:31 am

Bird's rookie year record with the Celtics is misleading, he had tremendously improved team support from the previous year. I'll repost this:

"There is no doubt rookie Bird had a huge impact and was the big difference for that team’s turnaround. He was the only new player in the starting lineup, but there’s more to the story and he did have help.

That year the team had gotten a new coach after changing coaches four times in the past two years. They had a bad owner who was destroying the team and Red Auerbach was so angry with his bad moves he threatened to leave until the owner sold the team to a new owner Bird’s rookie year. (One bad move was trading Bob McAdoo after 20 games the year before.)

This gave Red more control over decisions and he quickly restructured the team better. Bench players aging Jojo White, Rowe were gone and he added ML Carr for leadership/intangibles and Henderson on the bench. Cedric Maxwell was also started hitting his stride as a third year player.

He did make Cowens and Tiny better, but they were still all-star talents that year and future HOFers and Maxwell was great all year and in the playoffs (compare Bird’s advanced stats RS and playoffs with Cedric ‘80), that’s talent.

Tiny was #2-4 in the league in assists those years, second team all nba, Cowens made the 2nd all-defensive team in 80’(I don’t put much stock in accolades at all, but they can provide broad strokes of their play contribution)

For their careers Tiny was a 6x All star, a scoring champion (top 3 four times), top 10 in assists 7 years (and lead it once), and HOFer. Cowens was a former league MVP, a top rated defender, 8x All Star, ROY, had already won 2 championships and HOFer. They were both 31 Bird’s rookie year.


Grounded for two seasons, the Celtics are perched high atop the NBA standings. The big difference: a rare Bird of a rookie

..In that one nightmare season the Celtics went through two coaches ( Satch Sanders and Dave Cowens), tried 21 different starting lineups and shuttled 18 different players in and out of town.

..The depth of Boston's decline cannot be overemphasized. It was as if by blowing first-round draft choices year after year on the fabled Clarence Glover, Steve Downing, Glenn McDonald, Tom Boswell and Norm Cook, someone in the Celtics' front office was trying to make up to the rest of the league for all the years of Boston's dominance. Even trades that had seemed promising—deals for name players like Sidney Wicks, Curtis Rowe, Billy Knight, Marvin Barnes and Bob McAdoo—had caused only problems. "My first season here we had seven guys who were All-Stars," says third-year Forward Cedric Maxwell, himself a budding star with a league-leading .667 field-goal shooting percentage. "We had more talent then than we do now—superstars at every position—but a lot of them were misfits. Just because you put five guys together on the floor doesn't mean they're going to play well together."

The Celtics certainly proved that. The height of their front-office folly came last winter when John Y. Brown, then the club's owner—he has since got himself elected governor of Kentucky on the skirttails of his bride, Phyllis George—swapped three first-round draft choices to New York for McAdoo. Auerbach was displeased but philosophical. "What are you gonna do?" he says now. "Criticize the owner? Besides, people wouldn't have believed me if I told them how dumb this guy was. He'll probably try to trade the Kentucky Derby for the Indianapolis 500."

Inept as they seemed through these dreadful times, the Celtics did manage to do one thing right. In the 1978 draft Auerbach selected Larry Bird…There are many ways to gauge Bird's importance to the Celtics, but probably the simplest and most telling is to point out that he is the only new face in the starting lineup that finished the season for Boston last season, replacing McAdoo.

..Fitch's job was made easier when the Celtics signed free-agent Forward M. L. Carr from Detroit and then unloaded McAdoo as compensation in the bargain. Only two NBA players had more playing time last season than Carr, and he led the league in steals, but it was as much for his disposition—which is resolutely cheerful—as his skills that Boston went after him.

..It's unlikely that there was another player on the Celtics' roster whose confidence needed restoring more desperately than Archibald. He was one of the premier guards in the game when he ruptured an Achilles' tendon in 1977. Last season, his first in Boston, he was coming back from a layoff of a year and a half, and he was both rusty and not-so-tiny.

http://www.si.com/vault/1979/12/03/8242 ... f-a-rookie


So rookie Bird, who had a great impact, also got a team with much greater stability and leadership in a new coach, new owner, Auerbach with greater control again, an improved bench & intangibles, a third year Cedric Maxwell and a healthy Tiny Archibald.

Tiny and Cowens both made the all star game that year. All these factors aided Bird’s team success imo, so he benefited from better help his rookie year too versus what Hakeem succeeded with."
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#250 » by magicmerl » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:43 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
magicmerl wrote:

Code: Select all

Regular Season
Player TRB     AST    STL    BLK    TOV    PF     PTS
Kobe    7.5    6.7    2.1    0.7    4.3    3.6    36.1
Bird   12.5    7.9    2.2    1.0    3.9    3.2    30.3

Playoffs
Player TRB     AST    STL    BLK    TOV    PF     PTS
Kobe    6.9    6.4    1.9    0.9    4.0    4.1    34.7
Bird   12.1    7.6    2.1    1.0    3.6    3.3    28.0

Bird blows Kobe away if you look at their career per100possession stats. The only thing Kobe does better than Bird is consume shot attempts.

I think Kobe's arguement over Bird begins and ends with his increased longevity, since 4 seasons (and counting) is a lot.

Kobe's 06-10 peak had him at 39.2 ppg, 6.6 apg, 7.3 rpg, 2.1 spg, 4.0 tpg per 100. How does Bird "blow that away"? Nevermind the defensive end where Kobe has a clear edge.

Bird was better than Kobe2010 for the first 9 years of his career. Do you really think 10 is part of Kobe's peak?

Anyway, here's a side by side comparison of Kobe and Bird over their putative primes using per100 stats:
Kobe06-10 .565TS% 39.2PTS 7.3REB 6.6AST 2.1STL 0.5BLK 4.0TOV 3.5PF
Bird.85-88 .596TS% 34.4PTS 11.9REB 8.3AST 2.2STL 1.1BLK 3.8TOV 3.5PF

Kobe's only advantage is volume scoring at a lower efficiency. Bird was a better rebounder and passer.
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RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#251 » by RSCD3_ » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:43 am

I'll be voting for Larry Bird

He was a tremendous offensive player who could shoot very well and attack closeouts very effectively. He was incredible as a Transition player among the GOAT's in that regard. He is one of the best passers not only for his his size but for any player and he was as creative as magic. He wasn't a ball dominator to the extent of Kobe/Jordan so his teammates where more involved and also less selfish by proxy.

He has is one of the most portable in that he can fit with any group of players due to his shooting ability strength to back down and make fast decisions with a pass to throw defenses in arrays. He had great hand eye coordination and what he lacked in explosiveness he made up for in mobility and using angles.

His defense is underrated in that people think he is A liability while peak bird was a great off ball defender who could catch players slipping and pick off many passes that other players couldn't forecast.

In today's nba the greater use of the three and his off ball ability would lead to him greatly increasing his scoring and efficiency. The spacing would allow him to make even more passes and he would be unstoppable offensively. The ultimate stretch 4.

In today's game I think he would be the best offensive player and at worst a neutral on defense and a slight notch below LeBron.



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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#252 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:47 am

Baller2014 wrote:It's called cause and effect. Obviously in the case of basketball impact we can't 100% prove causation, but everyone else is using games with/without or minutes with/without as an argument for players, so I have no idea why it's not worth looking at. It's only circumstantial evidence, but so is the snow on the ground outside when I wake up. I can't prove it snowed, but it's pretty damn likely.



Its fine to suggest rookie Bird had a tremendous positive impact on the Celtics. Insisting that he is worth 32 games and then demanding people show you proof Dream ever did the same is something different altogether.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#253 » by magicmerl » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:48 am

RSCD3_ wrote:I'll be voting for Larry Bird

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#254 » by shutupandjam » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:49 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:The fact the Lakers felt into the abyss even with Pau putting up 17/10 without a healthy Kobe in 2014 should speak to his impact in that regard.


The Lakers fell into the abyss because they had one of the league's worst rosters. The 18 win drop in 2014 isn't attributable to Kobe's absence alone. Look at the top 7 by total minutes played on those teams:

2013:
1. Kobe
2. Dwight
3. Artest
4. Meeks
5. Pau
6. Jamison
7. Nash

2014 (LOL!):
1. Meeks
2. Wes Johnson
3. Pau
4. Swaggy P
5. Kendall Marshall
6. Jordan Hill
7. Ryan Kelly
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#255 » by magicmerl » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:52 am

Yeah, I think losing Dwight had something to do with the LAL2014 falling off a cliff.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#256 » by An Unbiased Fan » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:02 am

shutupandjam wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The fact the Lakers felt into the abyss even with Pau putting up 17/10 without a healthy Kobe in 2014 should speak to his impact in that regard.


The Lakers fell into the abyss because they had one of the league's worst rosters. The 18 win drop in 2014 isn't attributable to Kobe's absence alone. Look at the top 7 by total minutes played on those teams:

2013:
1. Kobe
2. Dwight
3. Artest
4. Meeks
5. Pau
6. Jamison
7. Nash

2014 (LOL!):
1. Meeks
2. Wes Johnson
3. Pau
4. Swaggy P
5. Kendall Marshall
6. Jordan Hill
7. Ryan Kelly

Can you do me a favor, and NOT take my quotes out of context. :noway:

I was replying to this..."Kobe isn't better than Bird on D or O, not that we should be trying to create arbitrary categories to weight, this isn't Pokémon. All that matters is that Bird's impact was greater (much greater) than Kobe. Even as a rookie that was true, he turned a 29 win team into a 61 win contender, something Kobe could only ever dream of doing. Then after his rookie year Bird got even better,"

And my FULL quote was...."Well Kobe went to a team that already won 53 games as a 17 year old, so...I'm not sure how we can compare a 23 year old Bird joining a revamped Celtics. The fact the Lakers felt into the abyss even with Pau putting up 17/10 without a healthy Kobe in 2014 should speak to his impact in that regard."

You make it seem like I'm putting up the 2014 season as a way to show impact, when that sentence was a rebuttal to Baller's post.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#257 » by 90sAllDecade » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:09 am

Hakeem has a better peak, longevity, a better two way prime and is much better defensively. He needed much less team support to win a championship, Bird has one of the most stacked rosters in his career on this all time list. Bigs have a greater two way impact than comparable wings.

Accolades aren't necessarily a strong indicator of defense, but Bird made a grand total of thee All NBA defensive 2nd teams in his entire career. Bird also played only 12 seasons his entire career, of which injuries set him back many years. Of course Bird is a wing and a better passer and 3pt shooter, but if you adjust for pace, Hakeem is comparable as a scorer in the RS for their careers and better than Bird in the playoffs.

Hakeem career Per 100

RS: 30.3 pts .554 TS%
Playoffs: 33.7 pts .569 TS%

Bird career Per 100

RS: 30.3 pts .564 TS%
Playoffs: 28.0 pts .551 TS%

Even raw ppg stats tell the same story, Bird is even worse in every other advanced stat as well regular season or playoffs. Hakeem even has better steals and stl% than Bird and he's a center.

And for their careers Hakeem consistently improved in the playoffs and Bird consistently got worse.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#258 » by An Unbiased Fan » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:09 am

magicmerl wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
magicmerl wrote:

Code: Select all

Regular Season
Player TRB     AST    STL    BLK    TOV    PF     PTS
Kobe    7.5    6.7    2.1    0.7    4.3    3.6    36.1
Bird   12.5    7.9    2.2    1.0    3.9    3.2    30.3

Playoffs
Player TRB     AST    STL    BLK    TOV    PF     PTS
Kobe    6.9    6.4    1.9    0.9    4.0    4.1    34.7
Bird   12.1    7.6    2.1    1.0    3.6    3.3    28.0

Bird blows Kobe away if you look at their career per100possession stats. The only thing Kobe does better than Bird is consume shot attempts.

I think Kobe's arguement over Bird begins and ends with his increased longevity, since 4 seasons (and counting) is a lot.

Kobe's 06-10 peak had him at 39.2 ppg, 6.6 apg, 7.3 rpg, 2.1 spg, 4.0 tpg per 100. How does Bird "blow that away"? Nevermind the defensive end where Kobe has a clear edge.

Bird was better than Kobe2010 for the first 9 years of his career. Do you really think 10 is part of Kobe's peak?

Anyway, here's a side by side comparison of Kobe and Bird over their putative primes using per100 stats:
Kobe06-10 .565TS% 39.2PTS 7.3REB 6.6AST 2.1STL 0.5BLK 4.0TOV 3.5PF
Bird.85-88 .596TS% 34.4PTS 11.9REB 8.3AST 2.2STL 1.1BLK 3.8TOV 3.5PF

Kobe's only advantage is volume scoring at a lower efficiency. Bird was a better rebounder and passer.

Scoring + Defense is fairly important...isn't it? Sure Bird had more rebounds and slightly more assists, but Kobe was the better scorer and defender.
7-time RealGM MVPoster 2009-2016
Inducted into RealGM HOF 1st ballot in 2017
magicmerl
Analyst
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#259 » by magicmerl » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:17 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Scoring + Defense is fairly important...isn't it? Sure Bird had more rebounds and slightly more assists, but Kobe was the better scorer and defender.

Sure it is. But Kobe's defense seemed to drop off a cliff once Shaq left. Shouldn't he be playing peak defense in his actual peak? I watched the defensive highlights video you posted, and it looks like there's very little from 06-10.

I'm not a Bird homer (I didn't vote for him in this thread). But in the interests of balance, here's a clip of Bird playing defense for comparison with the one of Kobe you posted earlier.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ixy8Uttq0[/youtube]
shutupandjam
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Joined: Aug 15, 2012

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#260 » by shutupandjam » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:18 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
shutupandjam wrote:
Spoiler:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The fact the Lakers felt into the abyss even with Pau putting up 17/10 without a healthy Kobe in 2014 should speak to his impact in that regard.


The Lakers fell into the abyss because they had one of the league's worst rosters. The 18 win drop in 2014 isn't attributable to Kobe's absence alone. Look at the top 7 by total minutes played on those teams:

2013:
1. Kobe
2. Dwight
3. Artest
4. Meeks
5. Pau
6. Jamison
7. Nash

2014 (LOL!):
1. Meeks
2. Wes Johnson
3. Pau
4. Swaggy P
5. Kendall Marshall
6. Jordan Hill
7. Ryan Kelly

Can you do me a favor, and NOT take my quotes out of context. :noway:

I was replying to this..."Kobe isn't better than Bird on D or O, not that we should be trying to create arbitrary categories to weight, this isn't Pokémon. All that matters is that Bird's impact was greater (much greater) than Kobe. Even as a rookie that was true, he turned a 29 win team into a 61 win contender, something Kobe could only ever dream of doing. Then after his rookie year Bird got even better,"

And my FULL quote was...."Well Kobe went to a team that already won 53 games as a 17 year old, so...I'm not sure how we can compare a 23 year old Bird joining a revamped Celtics. The fact the Lakers felt into the abyss even with Pau putting up 17/10 without a healthy Kobe in 2014 should speak to his impact in that regard."

You make it seem like I'm putting up the 2014 season as a way to show impact, when that sentence was a rebuttal to Baller's post.


What exactly is the distinction? He challenged that Kobe could have the same impact on his team as Bird because he believed Bird essentially immediately improved his team by x wins. You rebutted by, in effect, saying that Kobe did sort of have that kind of impact, citing how the 2014 Lakers fell apart without him...perhaps you were getting at something else, and if so I apologize for taking your quote out of context, but if you were it wasn't clear to me.

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