Another Knife in the Gut

[theatlfan]

This time from shamsports.com (Note: apparently, the owner of the site does post here - he's a CHI fan - so no attacks please).

They need an extra big and an extra scoring guard. Which they could have had in Lou Williams and Lucas Nogueira.

Link
To be fair, Mark does note that we tried for "star power" and failed (I guess he's referring to Deng although I wouldn't consider him the star he was 4-5 years ago), but the final line is the one that is the nut shot to me:

Could a deal to create space not have been worked out after they had found someone to use it on? It's what Cleveland did.

Yes... yes, we could have... cost would have probably been the same too.

EDIT: Someone informed me that Mark is actually a CHI fan - not a TOR fan as previously stated. My mistake.

[Jamaaliver]

And now you understand my frustration at the deal. Throwing away tangible assets on the off chance a top Free Agent out of nowhere decided to sign here was a very poor idea.

Even if we had signed Deng to a 2 year deal...would it have been worth it?

SAS builds through the draft. They make aggressive trades when the time calls for it.

Gambling on finding a Free Agent superstar to come here is like depending on lotto scratchers to pay your mortgage. Whether it works or not, it's still a very, very dumb idea.

[niffoc4]

And now you understand my frustration at the deal. Throwing away tangible assets on the off chance a top Free Agent out of nowhere decided to sign here was a very poor idea.

Even if we had signed Deng to a 2 year deal...would it have been worth it?

SAS builds through the draft. They make aggressive trades when the time calls for it.

Gambling on finding a Free Agent superstar to come here is like depending on lotto scratchers to pay your mortgage. Whether it works or not, it's still a very, very dumb idea.

Honestly I think it comes down to not having space for Nogueira on the team this year and not wanting Lou Williams. As the team stands now the roster looks like this:

Teague/Schroeder
Korver/Bazemore/Jenkins
Carroll/Sefolosha/(Patterson)
Millsap/Muscala/(Payne)
Horford/Antic

If you assume they want to resign Scott and Mack, and keep Patterson and Payne that's a full roster right there. Nogueira stated he wanted to come to the NBA this year, so to keep his rights the Hawks would have had to make him a contract offer, which he would have likely accepted. So in terms of roster spots, I think it came down to a preference for Scott or another FA over Nogueira now, and a preference for Mack (or another free agent) over Lou Williams. Both are debateable points, but I don't think that's crazy.

[Jamaaliver]

Nogueira stated he wanted to come to the NBA this year, so to keep his rights the Hawks would have had to make him a contract offer, which he would have likely accepted.

I don't believe this is true. Bebe is still under contract with his Spanish League team. Even if lucas wanted to come play in the NBA, his two employers have to agree to a buy out of his contract. He has very little leeway in forcing us to buy him out and sign him this year.

This also ignores that Bebe's value after winning DPOY was still worth more than a future 2nd round draft pick. And that we weren't assured of signing Thabo or Bazemore in Free Agency. Or that Jenkins and Patterson both have multiple obstacles to even making our roster this year.

[theatlfan]

And now you understand my frustration at the deal. Throwing away tangible assets on the off chance a top Free Agent out of nowhere decided to sign here was a very poor idea.

Even if we had signed Deng to a 2 year deal...would it have been worth it?

SAS builds through the draft. They make aggressive trades when the time calls for it.

Gambling on finding a Free Agent superstar to come here is like depending on lotto scratchers to pay your mortgage. Whether it works or not, it's still a very, very dumb idea.

Yeah, I think the consensus was that as long as Ferry actually had an aggressive plan with the extra $$, then it wasn't a bad move. Unfortunately, now that everything has shaken out Ferry most certainly did *not* have an "aggressive plan". If we had known then that all Ferry was planning to do was make runs at 2nd tier (Deng) and lesser FAs, then I think there would have been more of an uproar.

Nogueira stated he wanted to come to the NBA this year, so to keep his rights the Hawks would have had to make him a contract offer, which he would have likely accepted.

I don't believe this is true. Bebe is still under contract with his Spanish League team. Even if lucas wanted to come play in the NBA, his two employers have to agree to a buy out of his contract. He has very little leeway in forcing us to buy him out and sign him this year.

This also ignores that Bebe's value after winning DPOY was still worth more than a future 2nd round draft pick. And that we weren't assured of signing Thabo or Bazemore in Free Agency. Or that Jenkins and Patterson both have multiple obstacles to even making our roster this year.

IIRC, Bebe's contract actually expired and the team he was with didn't want him back (due to his antics last year). He was left without a team in Europe and he made it known that he wanted to come to the NBA so it wasn't like another team in Europe was itching to pick him up.

[Jamaaliver]

IIRC, Bebe's contract actually expired and the team he was with didn't want him back (due to his antics last year).

Nah:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/JLew1050/status/487258701385191424[/tweet]

On 27 June 2013, the day of the NBA draft, Nogueira signed a two-year contract extension with with Estudiantes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_Nogueira

Bebe was (is?) still under contract until that buyout occurs. They might be glad to see him go. But he was still under their control.

[Rip2137]

Just so we have a clear cutoff line, how many years do we have to pretend like Nogeria is the next Mutumbo before we can finally accept he was a project that wanted to come over too early and wasn't a big asset to include in a salary dump? We drafted him be living we had a few years before having to pay him. Instead after one year we would have been basically forced to pay his buyout and start paying his contract if we wanted to see him develop because he pretty much torched his bridge playing overseas. He is still skinny, hasn't shown one ounce of improvement after last year. He wasn't a asset.

I get this impression some times you guys think Ferry is only doing the deals that get done. Meaning he didn't try to trade Bebe to anyone else for something of substance because it didn't happen. Let me say it like this, if anyone has a clear picture of what you could net for Luis Noriega in the NBA, its the guy who delt him.

[Rip2137]

As for the article, Lou Williams is not the scoring guard we need on this team and there is no way on a healthy team Nogeria gets minutes over Antic and Muscala, much less Payne who are all more polished and prepares to contribute.

[SBM]

Ferry is a joke. Giving away an expiring contract and a 1st rd pick and getting nothing in return should cement that. He not only gave away one asset but two. An expiring is an asset.

[Jamaaliver]

He is still skinny, hasn't shown one ounce of improvement after last year. He wasn't a asset.

Then we should not have drafted him over an NBA Ready Center like Gorgui Dieng. Or an NBA ready wing like Hardaway.


You can't give him credit both ways.

He can't be smart for picking a prospect at the expense of NBA caliber players.

And also be savvy for giving up on a project player for table scraps after only 12 months.

That's why they are called projects.

[Rip2137]

Yes except our project burnt bridges overseas where he was supposed to stay and work on his game without costing us money until he was a more finished product.

I'm not calling him a great pick, I am saying that once the situation changed it wasn't a bad move to cut your losses. Just like Lou Williams was a great signing...then he tore his ACL and wasn't the same player anymore and we changed coaches since his signing.

I don't love all of Ferry's moves. Downright dislike some of them. I am a little bothered by his inability to move real assets(Like Josh Smith) for something tangible...i don't know if it reflective of our assets or the other GMs respect for Ferry, But this one seriously isn't that big of a deal.

[Rip2137]

He is still skinny, hasn't shown one ounce of improvement after last year. He wasn't a asset.

Then we should not have drafted him over an NBA Ready Center like Gorgui Dieng. Or an NBA ready wing like Hardaway.

Also, are we blaming Ferry for not seeing the future now? If Lucas had put in work, worked on his game, gained some muscle then I would be bothered by dropping him too. Instead he worked on seemingly nothing, didn't change his body at all, and burned a bridge at the best international league...you are creeping up on hindsight again.

[Jamaaliver]

He is still skinny, hasn't shown one ounce of improvement after last year. He wasn't a asset.

Then we should not have drafted him over an NBA Ready Center like Gorgui Dieng. Or an NBA ready wing like Hardaway.

Also, are we blaming Ferry for not seeing the future now? If Lucas had put in work, worked on his game, gained some muscle then I would be bothered by dropping him too. Instead he worked on seemingly nothing, didn't change his body at all, and burned a bridge at the best international league...you are creeping up on hindsight again.

I'm relieved to hear you at least acknowledge the ongoing concerns with Ferry's lack of accomplishments.

I'm trying NOT to use hindsight. I just remember me being very high on Dieng before the draft. I remember Horford publicly lobbying us to draft Dieng before the draft.

The truth no one has mentioned is that Ferry made the same mistake two years in a row. First, he drafted a couple of foreign prospects. I presume part of the reason for doing so was to preserve all that cap space to pursue Dwight and friends. We missed out on ready to play prospects last year because Ferry was looking to splurge in Free Agency. Ferry dropped Bebe after only one year. I don't think he did so because he was less enamored with Bebe. I presume he did it as a necessary step to regain cap space. We gave up a prospect because Ferry was looking to splurge in Free Agency.

What DF is just now realizing is what most longtime Hawks fans have known for years:

Top Free Agents don't like to sign with Atlanta.

He's made moves for years with the goal of us being players in Free Agency, but he should have been going the OPPOSITE direction. Acquiring assets in trade and the draft.

[Jamaaliver]

I get this impression some times you guys think Ferry is only doing the deals that get done.

Question for everyone here:

Has Danny Ferry ever won a trade? Has he ever acquired an equal or greater amount of talent to what he sent out in trade?

(Because no players or draft picks were a part of the Kyle Korver trade from Chicago, let's exclude that specific transaction.)

[Jamaaliver]

Seems like every trade has either been a salary dump, a favor to a GM who needed cap space, or a middling talent who made no drastic impact on the team.

JJ trade = salary dump
Marvin Trade = salary dump
Bebe & Lou trade = salary dump
Jeremy Tyler trade was for cash considerations. Also he was cut within days of getting here.
Antawn Jamison trade was for cash considerations. He never played here.

Is Dahntay Jones for Anthony Morrow the closest thing to a win Ferry can claim in a trade?
That's bad, right?

[theatlfan]

Also, are we blaming Ferry for not seeing the future now? If Lucas had put in work, worked on his game, gained some muscle then I would be bothered by dropping him too. Instead he worked on seemingly nothing, didn't change his body at all, and burned a bridge at the best international league...you are creeping up on hindsight again.

The problem with Lucas wasn't that he didn't work on his body or game, he did. He worked on his game and body in such a way to do what he thought was needed to get to the NBA instead of helping of working on the things to help his team win. He basically had already moved on mentally from the team that was paying him and that's how he burned that bridge.

Some examples: 1) before the season began, the coach blasted Lucas for working out too much and getting too big too quickly. The coach said that when that happens, the player gets hurt, and since they (not us) were paying Lucas, he shouldn't have done that. 2) After he got hurt, he suspended his contract so that he could come to the states and prepare under our team doctors and a contingent of doctors out of LA (I'd guess that there's a practice out there that caters to NBA players - Dwight rehabbed out there a couple of summers ago) instead of relying on the medical care in Europe to rehab the injury. Clearly, Bebe was not someone who was opposed to working - he just wanted to work within the structure of the NBA, not the Spanish League.

Seems like every trade has either been a salary dump, a favor to a GM who needed cap space, or a middling talent who made no drastic impact on the team.

JJ trade = salary dump
Marvin Trade = salary dump
Bebe & Lou trade = salary dump
Jeremy Tyler trade was for cash considerations. Also he was cut within days of getting here.
Antawn Jamison trade was for cash considerations. He never played here.

Is Dahntay Jones for Anthony Morrow the closest thing to a win Ferry can claim in a trade?
That's bad, right?

Not sure what you're driving at here. 90% of trades in the NBA are financially motivated salary dumps and another 90% (most trades could fit both of these categories) are shuffling middling talent to fill holes on the roster or on the court. Right, Wrong, or Indifferent: Ferry won't take on another GM's mistake contract, so I don't see us being a team like BRK, SAC, and now NOP that will actually give value for an overpaid player (which I can respect). As far as putting talent on the table for a big name, Ferry didn't walk into a situation were he had the sort of young player/s or assets to trade for a big name - when Ferry got here, we had 1 player on a rookie contract (Teague) and our own picks which don't hold much value for a 2nd round out team.

Now, I do agree that I would think that Ferry should have found a deal at least as good as the deal he got for JJ for Smith (expirings and a 1st) and his inability to do probably cost us the Greek Freak who is increasingly looking like a budding star. I also agree that Ferry pulled the trigger on dumping Lou and Bebe *way* too quickly and his vision for this off-season was weak at best. But saying that his trade history only includes salary dumps and "shuffle the deck" deals is basically calling him an NBA GM - this is what they all do.

[niffoc4]

I get this impression some times you guys think Ferry is only doing the deals that get done.

Question for everyone here:

Has Danny Ferry ever won a trade? Has he ever acquired an equal or greater amount of talent to what he sent out in trade?

(Because no players or draft picks were a part of the Kyle Korver trade from Chicago, let's exclude that specific transaction.)

Why are we excluding the one trade that he clearly won? Also, that's a great example of how useful cap space can be. We got a core player that fits our system perfectly for nothing because we had cap space.

On a separate note, looking back, it looks like you were right about Dieng, and it's Ferry's pursuit of flexibility that cost us there.

[PandaKidd]

He is still skinny, hasn't shown one ounce of improvement after last year. He wasn't a asset.

Then we should not have drafted him over an NBA Ready Center like Gorgui Dieng. Or an NBA ready wing like Hardaway.


You can't give him credit both ways.

He can't be smart for picking a prospect at the expense of NBA caliber players.

And also be savvy for giving up on a project player for table scraps after only 12 months.

That's why they are called projects.

Excellent points.

Why draft projects if you arent willing to, well, stick with the "project".

Its just my guy feeling, but I think we all knew Lou Williams wasnt our "guy". We traded him for cap space to try and be aggressive in FA. It backfired SEVERELY. I think Ferry was trying to signal to the league "Hey we got money, and we are ready to pay". It completely didnt work out.

Right now we traded Lou WIlliams and Bebe for .............nothing.

Now this can ALL BE undone if we are buyers at the trade deadline. Having that cap space may be valuable, but until we see that realization, Im pretty disappointed in this offseason

[PandaKidd]

Ferry is a joke. Giving away an expiring contract and a 1st rd pick and getting nothing in return should cement that. He not only gave away one asset but two. An expiring is an asset.

[tonegully757]

He is still skinny, hasn't shown one ounce of improvement after last year. He wasn't a asset.

Then we should not have drafted him over an NBA Ready Center like Gorgui Dieng. Or an NBA ready wing like Hardaway.


You can't give him credit both ways.

He can't be smart for picking a prospect at the expense of NBA caliber players.

And also be savvy for giving up on a project player for table scraps after only 12 months.

That's why they are called projects.

Excellent points.

Why draft projects if you arent willing to, well, stick with the "project".

Its just my guy feeling, but I think we all knew Lou Williams wasnt our "guy". We traded him for cap space to try and be aggressive in FA. It backfired SEVERELY. I think Ferry was trying to signal to the league "Hey we got money, and we are ready to pay". It completely didnt work out.

Right now we traded Lou WIlliams and Bebe for .............nothing.

Now this can ALL BE undone if we are buyers at the trade deadline. Having that cap space may be valuable, but until we see that realization, Im pretty disappointed in this offseason

We traded Lou and Bebe to be players in Free Agency. Why give Ferry credit for gambling and trying. Hawk fans complain about Ferry like we have had some type of real GM in the last decade. Ferry is doing great in my book. Instead of being upset with the GM be upset with the players that don't want to come here, when the Hawks have put a fair offer on the table. How about we boo gasol and deng when they come to Phillips. something along those lines.
Bebe is not good. lets get that out of the way. Lou Will is pretty much on the decline and was even benched during the season. We we gambled and lost. Scared money don't make money.