RealGM Top 100 List #8

[DQuinn1575]

1. The idea that Larry's team wasn't just as loaded as Magic's, if not more. Those '83 Cs might just have the most loaded top 7 I've ever seen. Bird, Parish, McHale, Maxwell, Tiny, Ainge and Henderson. Wow. Magic had Kareem of course, who was better than any Celtic, and Wilkes, as his best teammates. Nixon was great, but you can also argue he was taking away from Magic at the time. Cooper was there but really wasn't at the level he'd hit at the late 80s.

The Celts weren't even the top 7 in 1983 - But from 83-86 the Celtics and Lakers had pretty even talent. Earlier the Lakers were better, and starting in 87 they were better. I think Johnson, Worthy, Scott, Jabbar, Cooper, Thompson, Green is probably the best top 7 - 4 number one picks, a number 3, a defensive superstar. Henderson is a reach at Boston, Archibald was 34 and down to 1,800 minutes.

I feel like people are just ignoring also that Magic was key to the Lakers' two titles in that time period. People go on about Bird's all-around contributions in the 1981 Finals: 15/15/7 was impressive as hell, but it's not like Magic wasn't killing it either. He didn't deserve the '80 Finals MVP but he averaged a triple double for the series and only

had one of the single greatest games in NBA history. That has to count for something right?

It does, but I disagree with the ignoring. I feel people see 2 Finals MVP and give him all the credit. You already said he didn't deserve 80 - well in 82 6 guys averaged double figures, Magic was 5th in scoring - and Nixon led team in assists. Magic deserves a lot of credit for both.

But I feel there are people who count Finals MVP heavily, and Magic gets 2 here, the same as Olajuwon getting 2. And they are NOT equal.

I don't see the hate Magic is getting for 1980-83, he was solidly a top 5 player in the period along with Bird, Kareem, Doc and Moses. I don't know the exact order but even if Bird was better (probably was), it wasn't by much.

.

He missed 1/2 of 81 and played horribly in playoffs. Solid top 5 doesn't quite work when you are all-pro and top 5 in MVP voting only once.

He was NOT top 5 in 80-82 - starting in 83 he was. It seems to be people lump Magic's first seasons together and say he was top 5 for 3-4 years, and then 84-91 he was superstar.

To me he was very good 80-82
top 3-5 83-85
superstar 86-91

[lukekarts]

Vote: Magic Johnson

I've not contributed to the discussion as yet and this will be my first vote, however I've read all the arguments and the reason I've come to this conclusion is as follows:

1. I believe Magic is clearly the best PG to ever play the game. Whilst I don't rate the position that highly, you have to say he mastered it and then some, producing fantastic results (in terms of both scoring efficiently, assisting at a phenomenal rate) whilst having a career glittered with success. It's hard to create a deep & structured argument as to why he wasn't elite.

2. His only real weakness as a player was defensively, but at Point Guard this is almost a non-issue. Point guard defense is never especially impactful, unless you're a multi-position defender like Payton or Kidd. With that in mind, you can't fault Magic's game too much.

3. His competitors for this spot - Bird and Hakeem (and LeBron, who I'm disappointed went ahead of him) are equally accomplished players but just didn't have quite the success as Magic. When there's little separation in talent but separation in results, I have to give the benefit of the doubt to the latter.

Glad to see you joining us. Keep posting in this and the next thread and I will be adjusting the voter eligibility list for thread #10. It's rarely actually about the vote; it's about the discussion and showing the rest of the voters good reasons to support particular candidates when choosing among very close groups of players -- all of whom were truly incredible stars.

[lorak]

2. His only real weakness as a player was defensively, but at Point Guard this is almost a non-issue. Point guard defense is never especially impactful, unless you're a multi-position defender like Payton or Kidd. With that in mind, you can't fault Magic's game too much.

The thing is Magic was PG on offense, but on defense he often played SG or both forwards positions. That means his impact (probably negative, maybe expect of few early seasons) on defense was bigger than typical PG

[lukekarts]

2. His only real weakness as a player was defensively, but at Point Guard this is almost a non-issue. Point guard defense is never especially impactful, unless you're a multi-position defender like Payton or Kidd. With that in mind, you can't fault Magic's game too much.

The thing is Magic was PG on offense, but on defense he often played SG or both forwards positions. That means his impact (probably negative, maybe expect of few early seasons) on defense was bigger than typical PG

I didn't want to overplay that fact as he's clearly not a high impact defender, however that is true and certainly works in his defence.

[pancakes3]

Slots 8, 9, and 10 going to Magic, Bird, Hakeem is probably one of the closest margins for player comparison. As such, personal preference is going to count disproportionately large just because I don't really see clear cut arguments for any of the 3 to be ranked higher than the rest.

[DQuinn1575]

2. His only real weakness as a player was defensively, but at Point Guard this is almost a non-issue. Point guard defense is never especially impactful, unless you're a multi-position defender like Payton or Kidd. With that in mind, you can't fault Magic's game too much.

The thing is Magic was PG on offense, but on defense he often played SG or both forwards positions. That means his impact (probably negative, maybe expect of few early seasons) on defense was bigger than typical PG

I didn't want to overplay that fact as he's clearly not a high impact defender, however that is true and certainly works in his defence.

His only weakness is 50% of the time he plays.

Actually for the first part of his career outside shooting was a weakness. He improved, but that is part of his career




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[DannyNoonan1221]

3. His competitors for this spot - Bird and Hakeem (and LeBron, who I'm disappointed went ahead of him) are equally accomplished players but just didn't have quite the success as Magic. When there's little separation in talent but separation in results, I have to give the benefit of the doubt to the latter.

Bird won 3 straight MVPs- isnt that separation in individual stats, while one could argue Magic's only 'separation' is team results?

[ardee]

Bird won 3 straight MVPs- isnt that separation in individual stats, while one could argue Magic's only 'separation' is team results?

Magic won 3 in 4 seasons and he was competing with peak Jordan and Barkley. Bird was competing with a pre-prime Magic, King for one year, and Dominique.

I know it sucks that one of these two guys may even finish at 10, but that's a function of earlier mistakes in who was voted in above them.

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[HeartBreakKid]

Magic Johnson wasn't in his prime in the mid 80s..? Get out of here dude.

Larry Bird won 3 mvps over Magic Johnson, and yes Magic was in his prime. Bird and Magic played at the same time, it makes no sense to imply that Bird had inferior competition.

Bird was better than Magic for almost 6 or 7 straight years, arguably more so. But even then, Bird has a comparable prime, and a better peak, and they played nearly the same amount of seasons.


I think Bird's playoff woes are overplayed. He still elevated his game in the playoffs, why does it matter if he only got 3 rings instead of 5? Chamberlain and James have had worse playoff moments than Bird, yet they got in no problem over both Bird and Magic.



As for a head to head comparison, I think Bird is probably just as good as an offensive player as Magic, and a much superior defensive player.

Bird might not rack up a ton of assist, but the guy didn't even play with the ball. That's what makes his impact so great. He's like Dirk but amped up, as long as he's on the court his players are getting open looks and he's just making things happen. I dont think his offensive impact is any lower than Magic's really.

Bird could play without the ball, thus he heavily optimizes big time on ball players like McHale

He was a phenomenal passer, the fact that he got the assist he got without playing with the ball that much and scoring a lot is pretty amazing.

Magic might be more efficient, but Bird is a better shooter by far. Bird is an all time great jump shooter, and his efficiency would go up in eras where the 3 point line would become more prominent. As people like to compare how players port over to other eras, I don't see how Bird isn't a more portable player, his game is perfect for the 3 point era, and even more perfect for the stretch 4 era. Magic by comparison only developed the 3 ball in his last season or two, and still wasn't near the shooter Bird is. My end result here is obviously Bird stretches defenses a lot. Magic being the official point guard of his team and not being a great shooter shooter should be a con against him even if he did have means to bypass that weakness.

Bird is also an incredibly versatile player. Might not have the tagline of playing 1-5 like Magic, but the guy can play both SF and PF (meaning he is a perimeter player and a big) at more or less the same level, the latter debatably making him a better player.


Magic had a great post game and could exploit it a lot against smaller players, but from watching the two, I thought Bird's was better to be honest. There probably aren't any stats that show this, but just from what I've seen.

Magic is a great rebounder for his position, but at the same time the guy is 6'9, it would mean more if the Lakers didn't usually field a player who had point guard size, so Magic grabbing that many rebounds for a PG isn't that much of an outlier for a team. Without positional bias and in a vacuum, Bird is clearly the superior rebounder.


I don't know, Bird to me is the better scorer (albeit it can be close), better shooter, better rebounder, better defender - and generally speaking you don't hear the contrary to all of those things even from people who think Magic is better (which is most people). So is Magic's passing and playmaking ability really that much greater than Birds, who is also heralded as one of the greatest passers ever? (in which case, I don't think that is hyperbole, I've never heard anyone say other wise, but if someone wanted to I would be interested in any cases that context Bird's passing ability). Magic's ability to control the tempo and set guys up is a special thing, but I don't really know if that makes him a superior offensive player to Bird, and if so by how much?

[Baller2014]

Magic Johnson wasn't in his prime in the mid 80s..? Get out of here dude.

Larry Bird won 3 mvps over Magic Johnson, and yes Magic was in his prime.

Were that true, it would be a reason to vote for Bird (as I have done), but for some reason people don't see the inconsistency.

[DQuinn1575]

Bird won 3 straight MVPs- isnt that separation in individual stats, while one could argue Magic's only 'separation' is team results?

Magic won 3 in 4 seasons and he was competing with peak Jordan and Barkley. Bird was competing with a pre-prime Magic, King for one year, and Dominique.

I know it sucks that one of these two guys may even finish at 10, but that's a function of earlier mistakes in who was voted in above them.

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The majority of the people who voted in the RPOY project plus me believe that Magic did not deserve 2 of those MVPs.

[HeartBreakKid]

Indeed, Magic having MVPs doesn't mean he necessarily deserved them. Debating Magic vs Bird for these contested MVP's is a waste given the topic, but I have a hard time putting Magic over 90 Jordan, and I actually think that was Magic's best year, but Jordan was clearly better to me. 89 Jordon over 89 Magic might not seem right at the time, but with hindsight could have been the better choice.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

For his combination of prime and peak I would vote for Larry Bird over Magic Johnson.
His '86 season is in my view one of the best ever and he sustained roughly a decade of absolute excellence.
Unlike other people, I'm don't believe too much into post prime impact impact when discussing Top15 players, as long as the prime itself is long enough to allow relevant shot at winning.
The reason of Bird over Magic is that for most of he career he had a bigger role with a weaker supporting cast while their team results were similar enough.

On a side note, I'm really curious to know what's actually the basis for anyone voting Garnett over Hakeem.
I could somehow follow the argument of him over Bird or Magic but, really, what he had over Olajuwon?

[shutupandjam]

A point that I want to emphasize re Magic's defense: he may not have been a great man defender, but his ability to create turnovers is being underrated imo. Steals take a possession from the opponent and also usually create a better offensive possession, an effect that's amplified by someone like Magic whose teams were so deadly on fast breaks. Magic's career stl% is 2.5%, which is ahead of guys like Bobby Jones, Kirilenko, Iguodala, Shawn Marion, and LeBron James. Did he gamble a lot? Probably, but my guess is it easily paid off given the rate at which he stole the ball and the success at which he ran the fast break.

[HeartBreakKid]

A point that I want to emphasize re Magic's defense: he may not have been a great man defender, but his ability to create turnovers is being underrated imo. Steals take a possession from the opponent and also usually create a better offensive possession, an effect that's amplified by someone like Magic whose teams were so deadly on fast breaks. Magic's career stl% is 2.5%, which is ahead of guys like Bobby Jones, Kirilenko, Iguodala, Shawn Marion, and LeBron James. Did he gamble a lot? Probably, but my guess is it easily paid off given the rate at which he stole the ball and the success at which he ran the fast break.

Indeed, but you are comparing Magic to forwards, when Magic is supposed to be a guard. Bird had amazing ball denial and his vision made him great at playing the passing lanes, he was a great theft as well.

Bird has a lower steal%, but I think the two are comparable.

[DannyNoonan1221]

Bird might not rack up a ton of assist, but the guy didn't even play with the ball. That's what makes his impact so great. He's like Dirk but amped up, as long as he's on the court his players are getting open looks and he's just making things happen. I dont think his offensive impact is any lower than Magic's really

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGtsVLorIYQ[/youtube]

4:40 to the end of the 10 minute video. The Celtics have 4 possessions in that time and ALL 4 the ball goes to Bird and he forces a double team- 3 times in the mid/post/corner, once even at the top of the key/elbow. He makes the right pass in all 4 situations. Just happens to be a stretch when the Lakers have momentum and it doesn't work out.

I noticed that sequence the other night and thought I would support HeartBreakKid's quote above.

[shutupandjam]

A point that I want to emphasize re Magic's defense: he may not have been a great man defender, but his ability to create turnovers is being underrated imo. Steals take a possession from the opponent and also usually create a better offensive possession, an effect that's amplified by someone like Magic whose teams were so deadly on fast breaks. Magic's career stl% is 2.5%, which is ahead of guys like Bobby Jones, Kirilenko, Iguodala, Shawn Marion, and LeBron James. Did he gamble a lot? Probably, but my guess is it easily paid off given the rate at which he stole the ball and the success at which he ran the fast break.

Indeed, but you are comparing Magic to forwards, when Magic is supposed to be a guard. Bird had amazing ball denial and his vision made him great at playing the passing lanes, he was a great theft as well.

Bird has a lower steal%, but I think the two are comparable.

Don't get me wrong, I think Bird is the better defensive player, I was just making a point because it seems that everyone is getting too down on Magic's defense.

[DQuinn1575]

A point that I want to emphasize re Magic's defense: he may not have been a great man defender, but his ability to create turnovers is being underrated imo. Steals take a possession from the opponent and also usually create a better offensive possession, an effect that's amplified by someone like Magic whose teams were so deadly on fast breaks. Magic's career stl% is 2.5%, which is ahead of guys like Bobby Jones, Kirilenko, Iguodala, Shawn Marion, and LeBron James. Did he gamble a lot? Probably, but my guess is it easily paid off given the rate at which he stole the ball and the success at which he ran the fast break.

Bobby Jones was a stay on the man defender who didn't gamble - The argument that Magic is a good defender because he gets more steals than Bobby Jones carries no weight.

Bird's was 2.2% while being a much better rebounder. That's was one of the pluses of Bird's defense - he got a lot of slap away steals, or steals where guys made careless passes, while still being able to be a great defensive rebounder -

The defensive scheme for Magic was - Cooper when in guarded best player - Scott/Nixon guarded point or next best player, Worthy or Wilkes were good defense and took a good player- it was shuffle the deck to find someone Magic could guard as he was the worst defender. Early in his career with Kareem he gambled a lot and got steals. Once Kareem slowed down -say starting in 1985 - Magic had a 2.1% steal percentage.

His offense picked up, but his main value in defense declined.

Bird played primarily power forward because he was so good on help side defense. He got a lot of steals on helpside, hit the defensive boards, etc. Plus he had good defenders in Maxwell and McHale who could go out on the perimeter.

But even though the Celtics had DJ they didn't switch things around like the Lakers did with Coop - They didn't have DJ guard the best 3, McHale guard the 4 and have Bird guard a weak 2. The Lakers would do this- put Magic on the weak guy.

In the interest of fairness Hakeem was a much greater defender than Bird or Magic -so was Garnett.
But how high do you rate a guy who is considered at best average on defense all-time?

LeBron is way better on defense than Bird or Magic, which is why I have him ahead of those 2.

I did basic ratings here viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1329351

It's obviously not perfect, just some basic guidelines I have in my head I put down on paper.

Magic is only guy from top 15 last time to be considered average defender

[DannyNoonan1221]

Don't get me wrong, I think Bird is the better defensive player, I was just making a point because it seems that everyone is getting too down on Magic's defense.

I hope I am not coming across as down on Magic. I really think each player has their strengths that are both a result of their position as well as their position being a result of their strengths. But as most people seem to agree- the two are damn close and hard to separate.

That is why in order for me to make this decision, I went with MVPs- Bird having won 3 straight in both players' 5th, 6th and 7th seasons in the NBA. 3 straight MVPs is impressive in itself, but to do it against Magic, the guy Bird is now competing against for the 8th spot on this list, tells me that at that time the people experiencing them thought Bird was player.

And yes, you can argue Magic won 3 later on over Bird. But by that time Bird was fighting through serious back injuries. Or you could say Magic simply peaked later on in his career and so that shouldn't be held against him. I can see that side to it, but two players who matched up their careers in terms of years played so perfectly- the guy who wins 3 in a row over the other when both are fully healthy and had been in the league long enough to develop their games- that player is getting the nod from me over the guy.

[ardee]

Magic Johnson wasn't in his prime in the mid 80s..? Get out of here dude.

Larry Bird won 3 mvps over Magic Johnson, and yes Magic was in his prime.

Do you deny Magic got a LOT better in 1987? 1987-1991 was his real prime.

Just because 1984-1986 were good enough to be prime for 99.5% of the players in history doesn't mean they weren't a notch below 1987-91, when he became a perfect offensive player.

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