Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[TGW]

Here we go...the comprehensive list of Grunfeld trades and my personal rankings:

Obvious fleecing:
- Traded the draft rights to guard Juan Carlos Navarro to Memphis for a future first-round pick (first rounder never obtained)
- Traded guard Antonio Daniels to the New Orleans Hornets for guard Mike James and a conditional first-round pick to the Memphis Grizzlies for guard Javaris Crittenton
- Traded forwards Etan Thomas, Darius Songaila and Oleksiy Pecherov and the 5th overall draft pick to the Minnesota Timberwolves for guard Randy Foye and forward Mike Miller
- Traded guard Jordan Crawford to the Boston Celtics for guard Leandro Barbosa and center Jason Collins (WTH was the point)

Debatable:
- Traded center Jahidi White to the Phoenix Suns for guard Brevin Knight
- Traded guard DeShawn Stevenson, forward Caron Butler, center Brendan Haywood and cash to the Dallas Mavericks for guard Quinton Ross and forwards Josh Howard, James Singleton and Drew Gooden
-Traded the draft rights to forwards Lazar Hayward and Nemanja Bjelica to the Minnesota Timberwolves for the draft rights to forward Trevor Booker and center Hamady Ndiaye
- Traded forward Ronny Turiaf and center JaVale McGee to the Denver Nuggets and guard Nick Young to Los Angeles Clippers for center Nenê from the Denver Nuggets and Brian Cook and a 2015 second-round pick from Los Angeles Clippers
-Traded forward Rashard Lewis and the 46th overall pick to the New Orleans Hornets for forward Trevor Ariza and center Emeka Okafor
- Traded the draft rights to guard Nate Wolters and forward Arsalan Kazemi to the Philadelphia 76ers for the draft rights to forward Glen Rice Jr
- Traded center Emeka Okafor and a 2014 protected first round draft pick to the Phoenix Suns for guards Shannon Brown, Malcolm Lee and Kendall Marshall and center Marcin Gortat
- Traded forward Jan Vesely to the Denver Nuggets for guard Andre Miller and traded guard Eric Maynor and a second-round pick to the Philadelphia 76ers

Ernie won this time:
- re-signed guard Laron Profit and forward Kwame Brown and traded them to the Los Angeles Lakers for guard Chucky Atkins and forward Caron Butler.
- Acquired forward Antawn Jamison and cash considerations from the Dallas Mavericks for guard Jerry Stackhouse, forward Christian Laettner and the draft rights to guard Devin Harris (could be debateable—some would rather have drafted Luol Deng)
-Traded forward Antawn Jamison to the Cleveland Cavaliers for center Zydrunas Ilgauskas, the draft rights to forward Emir Preldzic and a first-round pick; traded forward Drew Gooden to the Los Angeles Clippers for forward Al Thornton; traded forward Dominic McGuire to the Sacramento Kings for a future second-round pick and cash
- Traded the draft rights to forward Vladimir Veremeenko to the Chicago Bulls for guard Kirk Hinrich, the draft rights to forward Kevin Seraphin and cash
- Traded guard Gilbert Arenas to the Orlando Magic for forward Rashard Lewis
- Traded guard Kirk Hinrich and center Hilton Armstrong to the Atlanta Hwks for guards Mike Bibby, Maurice Evans and Jordan Crawford and a first-round pick

I think Zards is right though...it's probably closer to 50/50 on his trades. His trades, in general, haven't been horrible, but the drafting and signings have been some of the worst decisions made in NBA history (and no, that's not hyperbole).

[Kanyewest]

Fleeced in trades the vast majority of times? Can you give a few examples? I would suggest that his trade record is pretty decent--50-50 at worse. For every #5 pick trade for Foye/Miller, there's been a Kwame for Caron type trade.

And this offseason EG has done a damn good job of not overpaying HIS guys, although some here wanted him to overpay Ariza. In fact, EG has gotten 2-3 guys in the past couple of weeks at what looks like bargain prices...with an eye toward having cap room in 2016.

The record speaks for itself.

The 3rd worst record in the NBA since 2003-2004.

Let's argue- because I'm kind of unconvinced in that is how to judge a GM simply by winning percentages. EG walked in the door in 2003 with the team already handicapped.

MJ had decimated the team upon EG's arrival
- Kwame Brown was an awful draft pick- and was developed badly
- Richard Hamilton was traded for Jerry Stackhouse
- Instead of trading up in the 2002 NBA draft to get someone like Butler or Amare, the Wizards chose to keep their picks for Jared Jeffries
- Jordan's teams were mediocre so they did not get a high draft pick in of the best drafts of all time (LeBron, Melo, Pierce)
- Jordan had also mortgaged the team's future by trading a future first to acquire Brendan Haywood.
- It can't be ignored that MJ/Collins did a terrible job in letting the young guys play- for instance Larry Hughes was sitting on the bench because Tyronn Lue had 2 rings.


- EG didn't even have the opportunity to trade Brown at that point, rumors were that the Heat were offering the #5 pick because EG hadn't been hired at that point
- Of course, Eddie Jordan was hired even before EG walked into the door

Even in this era, this suggest Abe Pollin was an owner who wanted to win as soon as possible for short term solutions- trading young talented players for short term needs
- Trading Rasheed Wallace for Rod Strickland because the team needed a point guard
- Trading Chris Webber for Mitch Richmond because the team needed a shooting guard
- Getting Michael Jordan to come back in the first place to bring buzz to DC.

Given the Wizards past moves is it hard to believe that ownership had a role in the following moves?
- Giving up the #5 pick for Antawn Jamison
- Trading the #5 pick again for Foye and Miller- to win now.

Of course, EG has had his faults. Getting Flip Saunders was clearly a downgrade over Eddie Jordan, drafting Jan Vesely was inexcusable, the Wizards have been slow to embrace analytics. These could be fireable offenses. Still, ownership has played a role in the series of decisions under Pollin that mortgaged the future for the sake of the present.

[DCZards]

Fleeced in trades the vast majority of times? Can you give a few examples? I would suggest that his trade record is pretty decent--50-50 at worse. For every #5 pick trade for Foye/Miller, there's been a Kwame for Caron type trade.

And this offseason EG has done a damn good job of not overpaying HIS guys, although some here wanted him to overpay Ariza. In fact, EG has gotten 2-3 guys in the past couple of weeks at what looks like bargain prices...with an eye toward having cap room in 2016.

The record speaks for itself.

The 3rd worst record in the NBA since 2003-2004.

Let's argue- because I'm kind of unconvinced in that is how to judge a GM simply by winning percentages. EG walked in the door in 2003 with the team already handicapped.

MJ had decimated the team upon EG's arrival
- Kwame Brown was an awful draft pick- and was developed badly
- Richard Hamilton was traded for Jerry Stackhouse
- Instead of trading up in the 2002 NBA draft to get someone like Butler or Amare, the Wizards chose to keep their picks for Jared Jeffries
- Jordan's teams were mediocre so they did not get a high draft pick in of the best drafts of all time (LeBron, Melo, Pierce)
- Jordan had also mortgaged the team's future by trading a future first to acquire Brendan Haywood.
- It can't be ignored that MJ/Collins did a terrible job in letting the young guys play- for instance Larry Hughes was sitting on the bench because Tyronn Lue had 2 rings.


- EG didn't even have the opportunity to trade Brown at that point, rumors were that the Heat were offering the #5 pick because EG hadn't been hired at that point
- Of course, Eddie Jordan was hired even before EG walked into the door

Even in this era, this suggest Abe Pollin was an owner who wanted to win as soon as possible for short term solutions- trading young talented players for short term needs
- Trading Rasheed Wallace for Rod Strickland because the team needed a point guard
- Trading Chris Webber for Mitch Richmond because the team needed a shooting guard
- Getting Michael Jordan to come back in the first place to bring buzz to DC.

Given the Wizards past moves is it hard to believe that ownership had a role in the following moves?
- Giving up the #5 pick for Antawn Jamison
- Trading the #5 pick again for Foye and Miller- to win now.

Of course, EG has had his faults. Getting Flip Saunders was clearly a downgrade over Eddie Jordan, drafting Jan Vesely was inexcusable, the Wizards have been slow to embrace analytics. These could be fireable offenses. Still, ownership has played a role in the series of decisions under Pollin that mortgaged the future for the sake of the present.

Very nice and smart post, kanye. It's interesting that there haven't been any responses, probably because there's very little here to take issue with or argue about.

[TGW]

Very nice and smart post, kanye. It's interesting that there haven't been any responses, probably because there's very little here to take issue with or argue about.

LOL you want a response? Here it is.

Yes, it's easy to blame the man in the grave for all of EG's bad moves, because he can't defend himself and because it's suits your narrative. There's nothing to argue because it's pointless to try and figure out which moves were "just Grunfeld" or "just Abe." We can only judge on what was done, and Ernie Grunfeld was part of all of it.

So to respond to you and Kanye--yes you can judge a GM simply by winning percentage because that's the only way you can judge a GM. If you want to judge Ernie based on how nice a guy he is, or how well-groomed his mustache is, then fine. But I assure you the other 29 front offices look at winning percentage to judge everyone on their staff.

[DCZards]

Yes, it's easy to blame the man in the grave for all of EG's bad moves, because he can't defend himself and because it's suits your narrative. There's nothing to argue because it's pointless to try and figure out which moves were "just Grunfeld" or "just Abe." We can only judge on what was done, and Ernie Grunfeld was part of all of it.

So to respond to you and Kanye--yes you can judge a GM simply by winning percentage because that's the only way you can judge a GM. If you want to judge Ernie based on how nice a guy he is, or how well-groomed his mustache is, then fine. But I assure you the other 29 front offices look at winning percentage to judge everyone on their staff.

First of all, I've never written a word regarding the Abe vs. Ted debate and who is to blame. That hasn't been my "narrative" or issue at all. You must be confusing me with someone else.

So if you're judging a GM strictly by winning percentage do you factor in the team that the GM inherited? Or is the new GM totally responsible for the success or failure of the team from day one? (That's the situation that Phil Jackson will face in NY, btw.)

Also, how do you account for those years when the new owner (Ted) tells the GM to tear it down (without regard to the W-L record) and rebuild?

[Kanyewest]

Very nice and smart post, kanye. It's interesting that there haven't been any responses, probably because there's very little here to take issue with or argue about.

LOL you want a response? Here it is.

Yes, it's easy to blame the man in the grave for all of EG's bad moves, because he can't defend himself and because it's suits your narrative. There's nothing to argue because it's pointless to try and figure out which moves were "just Grunfeld" or "just Abe." We can only judge on what was done, and Ernie Grunfeld was part of all of it.

So to respond to you and Kanye--yes you can judge a GM simply by winning percentage because that's the only way you can judge a GM. If you want to judge Ernie based on how nice a guy he is, or how well-groomed his mustache is, then fine. But I assure you the other 29 front offices look at winning percentage to judge everyone on their staff.

Abe Pollin was a good person. Just not always the best owner.

We will have to agree to disagree that winning percentage is the only way to judge a team. For instance Billy King is not a better GM than Sam Hinkie at this point because he has a better winning percentage. I think it is better to have a terrible winning percentage than to be mediocre.

[closg00]

Well Kanye, we both had a terrible win% AND were bad to mediocre for most of Ernie's tenure.


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[Brenice]

Very nice and smart post, kanye. It's interesting that there haven't been any responses, probably because there's very little here to take issue with or argue about.

LOL you want a response? Here it is.

Yes, it's easy to blame the man in the grave for all of EG's bad moves, because he can't defend himself and because it's suits your narrative. There's nothing to argue because it's pointless to try and figure out which moves were "just Grunfeld" or "just Abe." We can only judge on what was done, and Ernie Grunfeld was part of all of it.

So to respond to you and Kanye--yes you can judge a GM simply by winning percentage because that's the only way you can judge a GM. If you want to judge Ernie based on how nice a guy he is, or how well-groomed his mustache is, then fine. But I assure you the other 29 front offices look at winning percentage to judge everyone on their staff.

What does "the grave" have to do with any of it? Is Abe Pollin unblameable for anything becuase he is in "the grave"? What about the man with 1 foot in the grave? What was he trying to accomplish before both feet were in the grave? I don't blame him for trying for a major run before his inevitable passing. Things didn't work out with the Foye/Miller trade for depth but you can't say that Abe didn't have a say in the matter just like he wanted Wes to trade Webber after ganja-gate. He also named Wes Unseld GM. That was a great move. In case you didn't know, the man in the grave also changed the name of the team to WIZARDS or should we not say it because he is in the grave?

Ernie shares blame for his role in the negative and credit for the positive. But I'm living in the present. I like the direction Ted AND ERNIE have the team going right now. It's been 35 years since the franchise made the Finals. Ernie has been here what 11 years and since 1979 Ernie has put the 2 most successful Washington playoff teams on the floor in those 3 years, with and without the man in the grave.

If you want to talk winning percentages, what is the winning % under Abe compared to under Ted?

[TGW]

First of all, I've never written a word regarding the Abe vs. Ted debate and who is to blame. That hasn't been my "narrative" or issue at all. You must be confusing me with someone else.

So if you're judging a GM strictly by winning percentage do you factor in the team that the GM inherited? Or is the new GM totally responsible for the success or failure of the team from day one? (That's the situation that Phil Jackson will face in NY, btw.)

Also, how do you account for those years when the new owner (Ted) tells the GM to tear it down (without regard to the W-L record) and rebuild?

These are all legitimate questions, and context does come into play.

I agree that MJ was a terrible executive, BUT he cleared up a ton of salary, and allowed the Wizards to have the caproom to sign Arenas for example. He also signed Hughes, and drafted Haywood, who both became dependable starters. Kwame had enough value to trade for Butler. So EG wasn't working with a completely useless roster.

And this past season, Ujiri took over a dreck of a team in Toronto, and made them a playoff team. So inheriting a bad team isn't always an excuse.

As for the rebuilding years, well it would have been a legitimate excuse for a new GM, but Ted told Ernie to destroy the crumbling mess he built. If the team was worth salvaging, there would be no rebuild. When Ted took over, the roster was an effin mess. So to absolve Ernie from blame for that debacle is just being biased.

[Kanyewest]

Well Kanye, we both had a terrible win% AND were bad to mediocre for most of Ernie's tenure.


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True- EG has been mediocre. Just wouldn't say he's the worst

[Brenice]

Very nice and smart post, kanye. It's interesting that there haven't been any responses, probably because there's very little here to take issue with or argue about.

LOL you want a response? Here it is.

Yes, it's easy to blame the man in the grave for all of EG's bad moves, because he can't defend himself and because it's suits your narrative. There's nothing to argue because it's pointless to try and figure out which moves were "just Grunfeld" or "just Abe." We can only judge on what was done, and Ernie Grunfeld was part of all of it.

So to respond to you and Kanye--yes you can judge a GM simply by winning percentage because that's the only way you can judge a GM. If you want to judge Ernie based on how nice a guy he is, or how well-groomed his mustache is, then fine. But I assure you the other 29 front offices look at winning percentage to judge everyone on their staff.

What does "the grave" have to do with any of it? Is Abe Pollin unblameable for anything becuase he is in "the grave"? What about the man with 1 foot in the grave? What was he trying to accomplish before both feet were in the grave? I don't blame him for trying for a major run before his inevitable passing. Things didn't work out with the Foye/Miller trade for depth but you can't say that Abe didn't have a say in the matter just like he wanted Wes to trade Webber after ganja-gate. He also named Wes Unseld GM. That was a great move. In case you didn't know, the man in the grave also changed the name of the team to WIZARDS or should we not say it because he is in the grave?

Ernie shares blame for his role in the negative and credit for the positive. But I'm living in the present. I like the direction Ted AND ERNIE have the team going right now. It's been 35 years since the franchise made the Finals. Ernie has been here what 11 years and since 1979 Ernie has put the 2 most successful Washington playoff teams on the floor in those 3 years, with and without the man in the grave.

If you want to talk winning percentages, what is the winning % under Abe compared to under Ted?

[montestewart]

The 1979 team made the finals.

[dckingsfan]

Well Kanye, we both had a terrible win% AND were bad to mediocre for most of Ernie's tenure.


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True- EG has been mediocre. Just wouldn't say he's the worst

Agreed, probably just bottom 1/3rd

[milellie111]

Where would this franchise be without Ernie Grunfeld? Would we be in current conversations for contenders for the ECF?
Would we be in a position for Durant in 2 years?
Would we have Wall and Beal?
Would we have Wittman?
Would we have resigned Gortat?
Would we have Pierce, Humphries, and Blair for bargain deals?

All good questions for the doubters to think about. Pretty sure the answers will be disappointing.

[TGW]

Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster. Not to mention our "elite" franchise savior point guard who we will most likely give a max deal to, cant shoot outside of 15 feet while other teams pgs are knocking down threes.

[montestewart]

Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster. Not to mention our "elite" franchise savior point guard who we will most likely give a max deal to, cant shoot outside of 15 feet while other teams pgs are knocking down threes.

I'm so sick of these negative psycho crybaby pablum pukesters bringing the board down. The Wizards are doing just fine without you. Just as I predicted.

[hands11]

So what would be required for EG to be viewed as a great GM ? More accurately is probably should be worded a good GM or very good GM.

This should be interesting.

Me personally, I never like the Great GM title. It really wasn't about that. It was more about him being a competent GM or even an above average or good GM who had some luck break his way and that was operating under a poor owner with the wrong time line and mandates.

The argument here was those who said he was an decent GM and deserved a clean shot under Ted vs those that said he sucked and was one of the worst.

Well as more and more information comes in, it becoming more and more clear that Ted/EG is much better then Abe/EG.

Quit blaming a dead guy for a dude's suckiness as a GM. Just quit doing it!

Ernie had a couple decent offseasons WITH Abe alive. 2005 probably being his best one but his first offseason in 2003 had him steal Gilbert from GSW on a pretty good contract.

Last I checked, Leonsis was the majority owner in 2011. Which was a DISASTER.

But for the most part he's had uninspired, lazy, horrible offseasons. He cannot draft, he gets fleeced in trades the vast majority of the time, and he overpays HIS guys with no inch of negotiations.

Rightful blame is rightful blame...dead or alive.

No one is disrespecting Abe Pollin, however let's not act as if he didn't handcuff Grunfeld from doing his job at times. The Arenas deal was ALL Abe!! Even after the injuries he offered Gilbert $127 million!!! How do we know this? http://blog.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/2008/07/pollin_and_arenas_chat_about_c.html "Well, Gilbert Arenas spoke with Wizards owner Abe Pollin this morning and said he was assured by Mr. Pollin that he's "his guy and he won't let me leave no matter what." This was all Abe's doing, he was in control so don't blame Ernie Grunfeld.

If we judge a player based on one coach and he's terrible, then he gets a new coach and does a 180, common sense would tell you that it was the fault of the previous coach for not maximizing his talents. The same applies to Grunfeld and a change in ownership.

Im not saying anything about Abe dead that I didn't say about him while he was alive.

Why would him dieing change anything ?

All it has done has allowed the team to be sold to a better owner and since reenforced what I was saying as true.

[milellie111]

Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster. Not to mention our "elite" franchise savior point guard who we will most likely give a max deal to, cant shoot outside of 15 feet while other teams pgs are knocking down threes.

Glad to see you are infatuated with something I wrote years ago out of frustration when the team was horrible. But unlike a troll (like yourself), i know how to change my opinion and direction with the teams newfound success. Not continue to troll on a forum by lobbying for coaching and GM changes when the team is now one of the best in the East.

[payitforward]

Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster. Not to mention our "elite" franchise savior point guard who we will most likely give a max deal to, cant shoot outside of 15 feet while other teams pgs are knocking down threes.

Glad to see you are infatuated with something I wrote years ago out of frustration when the team was horrible. But unlike a troll (like yourself), i know how to change my opinion and direction with the teams newfound success. Not continue to troll on a forum by lobbying for coaching and GM changes when the team is now one of the best in the East.

You mean you actually wrote that? I always assumed someone just made it up and attributed it to you! It's easy enough to do. For example,

Ok, ok -- I know I'm just running my mouth and whatever I think, positive or negative, has no foundation in logic or fact. So? Is that some kind of a problem? -- Milellie didn't really write that stuff, true though it is. PIF wrote it for him.

[payitforward]

I'm a little confused by the "who to blame for what" back and forths. Of course Abe called the shots on the '09 trade -- in the sense that he had no stake in the future, was dying, and felt he had the right to one more shot! I don't blame him.

But the particular trade was Ernie's -- that is, Abe didn't say "trade our #5 pick for Foye and Miller." He said trade it for a shot at a ring or at least at going deep into the playoffs. Or so I assume -- does anyone really think that's not how it went down?

My guess is that the next conversation Ernie had was with Ted, who said something like, "Fine, fine... but if you want to work for me next year you'd better bring in expiring salaries so we're not stuck if the last fling fizzles." And that narrowed Ernie's choices.

But the particular trade was still Ernie's!! If you recollect, Minny also had the #18 pick that year, which they traded to Denver for not much. Denver picked Ty Lawson. Lawson was pretty much a lock to become an outstanding NBA point guard. Even at the time of the trade -- which of course I opposed in principle -- it was clear to me that Ernie could have done better, and that #18 pick was the "better" I had in mind.

And my point is?? No matter what direction the owner gives a GM, there are always good and not so good ways to pursue that direction. Though Miller was good, Foye was *obviously* a bust player. We didn't get enough in that trade. That's on Ernie.