RealGM Top 100 List #8

[penbeast0]

Here is how it looks now:

Magic 13 -- GC Pantalones, magicmer1, basketballefan, JordansBulls, Chuck Texas, penbeast0, Clyde Frazier, trex 8063, ardee, batmana, andrewww, An Unbiased Fan, john248

Bird 6 -- DQuinn 1575, Baller 2014, Warspite, DannyNoonan 1221, rich 316, RSCD3

Hakeem 4 -- Heartbreak Kid, threalbig3, Gregoire, ronnymac2

KG 2 -- Doctor MJ, PC Productions

lukekarts, and Ryoga Hibuki look interested in joining; I will probably reopen the panel after next thread. I may also cut some of the posters that have not been active or were just active for the first 1 or 2.

[colts18]

lukekarts, and Ryoga Hibuki look interested in joining; I will probably reopen the panel after next thread. I may also cut some of the posters that have not been active or were just active for the first 1 or 2.

I don't see any need to cut posters. We need all the posters we can get. So if they can only contribute in 5 more threads, thats 5 more threads of a quality poster that we wouldn't have if we cut posters.

[DQuinn1575]

Here is how it looks now:

Magic 13 -- GC Pantalones, magicmer1, basketballefan, JordansBulls, Chuck Texas, penbeast0, Clyde Frazier, trex 8063, ardee, batmana, andrewww, An Unbiased Fan, john248

Bird 6 -- DQuinn 1575, Baller 2014, Warspite, DannyNoonan 1221, rich 316, RSCD3

Hakeem 4 -- Heartbreak Kid, threalbig3, Gregoire, ronnymac2

KG 2 -- Doctor MJ, PC Productions

lukekarts, and Ryoga Hibuki look interested in joining; I will probably reopen the panel after next thread. I may also cut some of the posters that have not been active or were just active for the first 1 or 2.

Editoralizing from the cheap seats:

Can they KG crowd keep their comparisons to Bird and Hakeem (or Magic if something ridiculous happens) next thread -and only compare him to anyone else who gets an actual vote for #9?

Can the Malone/Walton/Barkley/xxx crowd not post about them unless they are voting for them at #9?

Bird/Hakeem/KG have a lot of differences and should be compared against each other - and anyone else people think belong in the conversation should be thrown in (Oscar, Doctor J, Karl Malone, Mikan, Walton) if you support them at #9.

[shutupandjam]

Here is how it looks now:

Magic 13 -- GC Pantalones, magicmer1, basketballefan, JordansBulls, Chuck Texas, penbeast0, Clyde Frazier, trex 8063, ardee, batmana, andrewww, An Unbiased Fan, john248

Bird 6 -- DQuinn 1575, Baller 2014, Warspite, DannyNoonan 1221, rich 316, RSCD3

Hakeem 4 -- Heartbreak Kid, threalbig3, Gregoire, ronnymac2

KG 2 -- Doctor MJ, PC Productions

lukekarts, and Ryoga Hibuki look interested in joining; I will probably reopen the panel after next thread. I may also cut some of the posters that have not been active or were just active for the first 1 or 2.

Ftr, I'm interested in joining too (I pm'd you during thread 5 and have been contributing since)

[SactoKingsFan]

Here is how it looks now:

Magic 13 -- GC Pantalones, magicmer1, basketballefan, JordansBulls, Chuck Texas, penbeast0, Clyde Frazier, trex 8063, ardee, batmana, andrewww, An Unbiased Fan, john248

Bird 6 -- DQuinn 1575, Baller 2014, Warspite, DannyNoonan 1221, rich 316, RSCD3

Hakeem 4 -- Heartbreak Kid, threalbig3, Gregoire, ronnymac2

KG 2 -- Doctor MJ, PC Productions

I voted for Magic.

viewtopic.php?p=40705795#p40705795

[Texas Chuck]

Spoiler:

Okay.let's say I basically agree with the ranking of Bird versus Magic except 1982 where Bird finished 2nd in MVP voting, Magic finished 8th and was 2nd team all-league - Bird got 20 1st place votes for MVP- Magic got 0 . I think most people would concede that - otherwise let's say it is right.

Let's say I agree with the choices for RPOY every year.

Here is my perspective as one who show this year by year with these guys:

Bird and Magic entered the league in 1979-1980. Bird is a better player than Magic every year thru 1985- six years in a row,with little doubt.

1986 comes along - Magic improves his outside shot, and becomes a bigger part of the scoring with the decline of Kareem - as a result Magic is now Bird's equal.

They stay equal for 3 years - in my mind in 1988 I think Bird is definitely better, because in the NBA he was either better or equal to Magic.

1989 comes and Bird declines - Magic is better than Bird, not because he improves, but because Bird is hurt. Magic stays at that level for 3 years.

So I have Bird at 5 star level (or whatever) 1980-88, and then he gets hurt. He still is 4+ star -when healthy 1989-91.

80-82 54.1% TS 20.4 AST% 15.8% TRB 24.9 USG 2.3 STL%
90-92 54.1% TS 27.5 AST% 13.3% TRB 25.5 USG 1.8 STL%

Better passer, worse rebounder, same TS% on same USG - steals down

I have Magic at a 4 star level (or whatever) 1980-85, then a 5 star level 1986-1991.

In my mind, Magic is never better than Bird, and played at about his level for 6 years.
Bird played at that level for 9 years.
And in his 9 years, Magic was never better, he just (maybe) caught Bird.

So in my mind, I can't rank Magic ahead of Bird, because I never think of Magic being better than Bird - just that when Bird was injured Magic wasn't.

I guess my question to those who voted for Magic is - at what point do the lines cross and Magic's career surpasses Bird's? Because to me it has to be somewhere after 1988 - but when??

Thanks

Look I got no problems with your opinions regarding Bird and Magic. All I was trying to do was point out that the list that was posted didn't really seem to show a clear edge for Bird over Magic.

[DQuinn1575]

Spoiler:

Okay.let's say I basically agree with the ranking of Bird versus Magic except 1982 where Bird finished 2nd in MVP voting, Magic finished 8th and was 2nd team all-league - Bird got 20 1st place votes for MVP- Magic got 0 . I think most people would concede that - otherwise let's say it is right.

Let's say I agree with the choices for RPOY every year.

Here is my perspective as one who show this year by year with these guys:

Bird and Magic entered the league in 1979-1980. Bird is a better player than Magic every year thru 1985- six years in a row,with little doubt.

1986 comes along - Magic improves his outside shot, and becomes a bigger part of the scoring with the decline of Kareem - as a result Magic is now Bird's equal.

They stay equal for 3 years - in my mind in 1988 I think Bird is definitely better, because in the NBA he was either better or equal to Magic.

1989 comes and Bird declines - Magic is better than Bird, not because he improves, but because Bird is hurt. Magic stays at that level for 3 years.

So I have Bird at 5 star level (or whatever) 1980-88, and then he gets hurt. He still is 4+ star -when healthy 1989-91.

80-82 54.1% TS 20.4 AST% 15.8% TRB 24.9 USG 2.3 STL%
90-92 54.1% TS 27.5 AST% 13.3% TRB 25.5 USG 1.8 STL%

Better passer, worse rebounder, same TS% on same USG - steals down

I have Magic at a 4 star level (or whatever) 1980-85, then a 5 star level 1986-1991.

In my mind, Magic is never better than Bird, and played at about his level for 6 years.
Bird played at that level for 9 years.
And in his 9 years, Magic was never better, he just (maybe) caught Bird.

So in my mind, I can't rank Magic ahead of Bird, because I never think of Magic being better than Bird - just that when Bird was injured Magic wasn't.

I guess my question to those who voted for Magic is - at what point do the lines cross and Magic's career surpasses Bird's? Because to me it has to be somewhere after 1988 - but when??

Thanks

Look I got no problems with your opinions regarding Bird and Magic. All I was trying to do was point out that the list that was posted didn't really seem to show a clear edge for Bird over Magic.

No problem - I used your quote to preface my opinions because it was a good introduction for my thoughts.

[MacGill]

I am still with Hakeem here for my vote: Hakeem.

Ronnymac2 is really putting in work and I am wondering if it's just the general perception of his peak versus other years that's causing some uncertainty, which he did a great job of clearing up.

Of the players....Hakeem, Magic/Bird that I have in the mix here, Hakeem is the only true 2 way talent who can make a significant difference to me on both ends of the floor. Look, this isn't to say that magic's size at guard isn't valuable or the rebounding parity he creates. Nor is this to say that Bird's defense isn't as impactful as the good cases which are made here. It is that to me, Hakeem has the ability to anchor both offense and defense, even if his peaks in both came at different times.

If I am building a team (and I am not sure of the cast) I am taking the player who to me tips the scale the most. And that is a player whose skill sets in both come as close to being equal as possible. And it just happens to be that he can anchor the middle of your defense. Personally, I am the type who would take a 8 offense/9 defense player versus a 11o/6d player to get 17, if you catch my drift. Position is extremely valuable here and if you look at the majority of all dynasties, many have an all-time big anchoring the middle.

I also don't care about.....'oh we are at #8 and Magic isn't in yet' again because most had Magic above Hakeem all-time but some great posts have helped show that perception may not have been what actually happened. To me this is assessing their career and Hakeem gives you many many years for your team to be a contender. If you can't look at a player of his skill set and separate him from his history to see what you could do based on how many different line-ups, then I do not know what to tell you.

I just think that Hakeem's skill set is the most portable here to help any style of team of any performance level because of his superior defense while coming at the 5 position. The seperation here is extremely tight and I am sure we could go all year on this and that, but this was of value with Russell, Wilt, Duncan and Shaq. You could and we should have had more debate including Hakeem here as he is absolutely in conversation with these players. I don't even know how comfortable I feel in saying Hakeem was better then the others, except that the arguments I have read against him are more of how he faired during his time in the league and less about how damn unique and impressive his skill set actually was. So even if I view all 3 equally, Hakeem throughout his career provides you with security in where we have seen so many contenders fail because they couldn't match the player down low.

[90sAllDecade]

My vote is for Hakeem as well.

He is a consensus top 2 defensive player which is comparable to Magic and Bird's offense and better than Garnett's defense due to having both a strong horizontal, vertical and dominant shot blocking/steals. Hakeem's offense is much more impactful than Bird's and Magic's defense. He is also a better offensive anchor in the playoffs than Garnett and improved on both sides of the ball in the playoffs versus Bird and Garnett. He also needed less help to win and won a championship without a staked roster, which Bird, Garnett and Magic needed to win.

Hakeem also has better longevity and a higher peak than Bird, Garnett and Magic.

[ceiling raiser]

Hakeem is my pick again:

Hakeem is my vote as well. I've been watching as much tape as I can of his playoffs post-86 run and pre-peak, and he seems incredibly active defensively. Posts by fatal9, 90salldecade, and others have been very helpful in fleshing out Hakeem's pre-peak years. I feel like I have a pretty decent sense of where his game was at for those seasons. Regarding his "peak" play, there's not much to say. His rebounding wasn't as impressive as it was in the preceding seasons, and while it seems (need to watch more regular season games) he's not as active consistently on the defensive end as he was in the 80s, his floor game is very disciplined. Not much wasted motion, and he was a threat to every player on the floor, for every possession.

I'm not sure where I'd place his peak defensively, but it probably would be a few years removed from his offensive peak (which, for the record, was certainly enabled by Olajuwon's renewed commitment and Rudy T's offensive philosophies and schemes). Dipper 13's breakdown was a huge help, and allowed me to skim through games again, with some datapoints to keep in mind. Hakeem was tremendous a in the post and with his midrange jumper, two shots that will generally be there against top playoff defenses (trainwreckog left an impression on me a few months ago with this discussion, from a game theoretic POV it makes sense), and Hakeem was a great passer so you can't key in on him too much. As tsherkin said earlier in this thread, I don't think Hakeem would have to change a thing today.

I considered KG at this spot (and probably will continue to do so in the next thread), because of the strong RAPM argument and some of the points ElGee made a few pages ago (I think it is indeed possible that KG had a superior defensive floor game to Olajuwon, but I need to watch a ton more tape to get an idea). I would definitely like to see RAPM numbers for 01 and 02 produced from complete datasets (since at the very least, we know J.E.'s missing chunks of the first couple of seasons, possibly more); if someone is interested in parsing the play-by-plays to produce complete matchup files for their RAPM calculations, it would be an incredible asset to the community. Duncan was also a consideration, with his mobility, ability to create from the post, and great paint protection. I keep going back and forth on him and KG, not sure who I'd pick between the two of them.

I looked at Shaq here (who I expect to be voted in), and while I think he has an excellent case, defensive inconsistency is a huge deal for me. I understand that this would be a concern with Wilt, my pick at #4 as well, but the playoff defensive numbers seemed more consistent for Chamberlain, and he was always a willing rebounder; I do think that Shaq was the superior scorer to Wilt—in no small part due to his commitment to the power game, which Chamberlain did not demonstrate consistently over the course of his career— and a very capable passer, but the rebounding/paint protection was big for me. Again, he's certainly a good choice here though.

Admittedly I probably didn't consider Bird/Oscar/Magic here enough, but longevity has become a pretty big deal for me recently. I think LeBron has a strong case as well, but I just have great difficulty considering wings when there are still dominant bigs on the board. True, MJ was voted in at number 1, and while I think he is one of two players with a strong GOAT case (Russ being the other, they were 1-2 in my pre-project list), I'm somewhat relieved he didn't fall to a lower spot, because I'm not sure at what point I'd pick him over a center. I'm also a little confused as to why Kobe has been mentioned so often in this thread, but I think it was mostly peripheral discussion (like my exchange regarding RAPM last thread, apologies again for derailing), so I'm not as concerned. In general though, if we're going to elect a guy on the basis of scoring (and I know that's not his entire game, but it's a huge part of it), IMO we certainly have to take into account whether a guy was the first option, and what his role was on the offensive side of the ball.

[E-Balla]

I would miss the Magic/Bird stuff wouldn't I. Here's my breakdown of them from 1980-86 (excluding 87 on because I've seen most agree Magic was better from 87 on):

1980 -

Spoiler:

Bird was better. He led a 59 win team meanwhile Magic was number 2 on a 60 win team even though I think he was being underutilized. I will however make note of the fact that Magic outperformed Bird in the playoffs. Both teams played the Sixers and Magic averaged 21.5/11.2/8.7 on 65 TS% while Bird averaged 22.2/13.8/3.6 on 48 TS%.

Regular season: BIRD - by decent distance | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance

1981 -

Spoiler:

Magic got hurt and then he played like crap in the playoffs. In the regular season when he played Magic was insanely good to the point that I think in those ~40 games he was outplaying Kareem. He was averaging 22/9/9 on 58 TS% and he had his highest usage rate for any pre 86 season that year. He also was an absolute hound when it came to getting the ball on defense where he was stealing the ball with Chris Paul levels of effectiveness. On the other side of the Mississippi Larry Bird was healthy (one upping Magic just on that fact - much like the field vs Wade in 2007) and he led his team to a ring. In the regular season Bird was good but not as good as he was the previous season and Robert Parish/McHale joined the team which meant he had a great supporting cast. Actually this season was Parish's peak and he was putting up amazing numbers in the regular season. In the playoffs Bird dominated the East and played pretty bad in the Finals (against the same team that beat Magic). Against Houston Bird put up 15.3/15.3/7.0 on 46 TS% while Magic put up 17.0/13.7/7.0 on 44 TS%. Yes as bad as Magic was Bird was just as bad against the same team. Bird just happened to have a better defense around him (I don't believe that at this point in their careers Bird and Magic were that far apart as defenders). Still you can't ignore that that underwhelming series was Magic's only one and Bird had 2 good series before then.

Regular season: BIRD - by good distance | Post season: BIRD - by good distance

1982 -

Spoiler:

This is the first season Magic was better than Larry/Kareem and according to the RPOY project most people on these boards used to agree with that pretty overwhelmingly (only 2 people had Bird over Magic out of 17 voters and at first glance I didn't see Kareem over Magic at all). In the regular season they were about even. Magic in his GFC role put up 19/10/10/3 on 59 TS. Bird put up 23/11/6 on 56 TS. The Lakers only went 57-25 to the Celtics' 63-19 but early in the season Magic did have to help boot a coach out of LA (even if it's not true it was the right choice). I mean the only reason they won with Westhead was that Kareem and Magic were clutch (they went 7-4, won no games by 10+, went 6-3 in games decided by under 5 points - yes 9 of 11 games were within 5 points) because overall they had a -0.64 point differential compared to a 5.71 point differential with Pat - the difference between the 15th ranked team and the 3rd ranked team. In the post season Bird played a like opponent again in the Sixers. Before then both played easy wins against easy teams (and they did great). Against the Sixers Magic put up 16.2/10.8/8.0 on 63 TS (I keep seeing someone mention how Magic was 5th on his team in scoring and 2nd in assists but they keep forgetting he was first in rebounds by far) and he won a deserved Finals MVP (unlike in 1980). Bird put up 18.3/14.1/7.3 on 44 TS while being outplayed by Parish (and if you ignore the minutes difference) McHale. Bird was a rebounder/passer first but this super inefficient chucking was bad.

Regular season: EVEN | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance

1983 -

Spoiler:

Overall their teams were even in strength. Magic averaged 17/9/11 on 60 TS and Bird averaged 24/11/6 on 56 TS. Again they were both the best on their teams and had about even supporting casts and seasons. They were 2nd and 3rd in MVP (actually for this season both MVP voting an the RPOY voting have identical top 5s. Pretty cool) and in RPOY voting they were about even (.519 points for Larry and .500 points for Magic). In the postseason Magic played pretty good against San Antonio (a good team lead by an HOFer) and Bird was great against the Hawks. In the next round the Celtics were trounced by the Bucks and their amazing defense. He averaged 18.7/11.7/6.0 on 45 TS. He also missed game 2 which was the closest loss in the sweep (yes the game he missed was the competitive one). Magic averaged 19.0/7.8/12.5 on 51 TS against the fo' fo' fo' 6ers. He easily outperformed Bird as disappointing as he was.

Regular season: EVEN | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance

1984 -

Spoiler:

The first of 4 straight seasons where Magic and Bird were number 1 and 2. Bird won MVP averaging 24/10/7 on 55 TS in a different role than he played before (playing a lot of SF because McHale was playing his way into the Manu role getting 31 mpg). Magic finally got his shot at PG too and he averaged 18/7/13 on 63 TS. Bird led a way better team but he did have a better supporting cast. Either way Bird was better in the regular season but not that much better. In the playoffs Bird had a pretty tough schedule to play through. In the second round he had to play the 3rd best player in the game on the 3rd highest SRS squad Knicks (think a weaker 11 Chicago with B. King instead of D. Rose). He outscored Bernard King in that series 30.4 ppg to 29.1 ppg and was more efficient (65 TS to 60 TS). This is prime/peak King too so this isn't a small accomplishment. In the ECF he had to play the Bucks who had one of the 5 best modern defenses ever led by Marques Johnson and 2nd time DPOY Moncrief (who won the first 2 DPOYs ever in 83 and 84). He averaged 27/10/6 on 60 TS in a 5 game win. In the Finals he went head to head against Magic. To that point Magic was kinda coasting and he let Kareem takeover but the Finals is where he should've stepped up. Instead he played at his regular level and even choked at the end of games 2 and 4 (shot clock violation in game 2 just dribbling for 15 seconds before passing with 1 on the clock, missed freethrows before OT in game 4 then turned the ball over and let Larry hit a nice turnaround on him through lax defense). Magic still averaged 18/8/14 on 65 TS while Bird was amazing averaging 27/14/4 on 60 TS.

Regular season: BIRD - by a decent distance | Post season: BIRD - slightly

1985 -

Spoiler:

The first season of Magic at his peak (many feel his prime started in 87 but I feel in 85 and 86 he could've ramped it up if needed) and one of the relatively few seasons where peak Bird and peak Magic match up. The Lakers and the Celtics were about even overall with the supporting casts of these two being about even (Lakers were 7 deep and the Celtics were 6 deep but the Lakers were backcourt heavy at the top and the Celtics were frontcourt heavy). Magic finally developed a jumper and while it didn't show statistically it showed in results. The team around him was largely the same as in 84 with Worthy and Scott improving while they lost Wilkes and McAdoo/Kareem continued their slow decline. Magic averaged 18/6/13 on 64 TS and if we assume Magic could take another 5.66 TS attempts a game at average efficiency (which is 10 TS points lower than what he averaged -- I used 5.66 because it'll give him a square 20 TS attempts) he would've averaged 24.5 ppg on 61.1 TS in this situation (just food for thought about how good he really was). Bird averaged 29/11/7 on 29 TS. Overall I know most would take Bird in the regular season but Magic was playing with similar support and both teams had the same record. I gotta call a tie here. In the playoffs both players and teams played great headed to another Finals matchup. In the Finals Magic won averaging 18/7/14 on 57 TS while Bird averaged 24/9/5 on 53 TS. Both players were outplayed by Kareem and McHale might've outplayed them too. I'd say they were about even in the playoffs too but Bird did have to prove himself against better teams so I give him the slight edge for his upper level of play being achieved and not hypothetical.

Regular season: BIRD - slightly | Post season: BIRD - slightly

1986 -

Spoiler:

This year is Bird's absolute best. His team won 67 games, had a 9 SRS and was probably the best passing team ever. Bird averaged 26/10/7 on 58 TS and without McHale through most of February he averaged 27/13/8 on 58 TS. Magic averaged 19/6/13 on 61 TS (also topping his previous career high in PER) but again his team didn't really need him to score much. In the postseason Bird made it to the Finals without really being contested but Magic had the Mavericks make it a series in round 2 (yay no defense) and he had to score. He averaged 22/7/14 on 56 TS (128 ORTG!!!!) and while his scoring efficiency was nothing too special his lack of turnovers was astounding for any player especially a player with a 44 AST%. With Dallas making a push for the series Magic averaged 25/6.5/15.5 on 60 TS (138 ORTG and a 29.5 GmSc) to close them out. In the next round they lost to Houston led by the Twin Towers. Those two destroyed Kareem, Worthy, and Lucas and closed down the paint for every guard outside of Coop. Couple that with Scott and Coop not shooting too well from outside and you have a backdoor sweep for Houston over the heavily favored Lakers. Magic still did his thing though. He averaged 22/8/16 on 60 TS (127 ORTG!!!!). He didn't shoot under 50% any game, have any non 20-10 performances (the one game he had 17 points he had 20 assists), and he didn't have over 4 turnovers in any one game. Basically he played perfectly and it still wasn't enough (in no circumstance should you ever expect more from one player). Bird averaged 24/10/10 on 58 TS in a 6 game win over that same team. McHale and Parish/Walton kept the Twin Towers on lock though and that was the difference in this series (McHale averaged 26/9/2 on 63 TS). Bird was great but he wasn't as good as Magic overall and he did have less consistency (in the first loss Bird scored 25 on 44 TS and they lost by 2 and the second loss had Bird putting up 17/7/4 which is nothing special at all). In the playoffs I'd take Magic easily.

Regular season: BIRD - by decent distance | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance

In the regular season Magic was 0-5-2 and in the postseason (where Magic and Bird were playing at top level to win) he's 4-3. I don't really think from 82-86 Bird was much better than Magic and overall I'd split those years 3-2 in favor of Bird. Considering Magic wins every year (regular and post season - excluding the 88 regular season) overall the regular season performances from these guys favors Larry 4-5-2 (with Larry having less years well over Magic than vice versa) and the postseason overwhelmingly favoring Magic 9-3. This is why I have no issue putting Magic a tier or 2 over Bird overall.

EDIT: This is also why I think Magic was facilitating in the regular season to the point that it hurt common perception of him because there's no way he performs that well so consistently in the post season if he isn't that great.

[Doctor MJ]

I have to agree, its criminal that Magic didn't crack even the top 7.

Outside of this site he'd be a lock for top 5.

Again, the issue here is pure longevity, and it's not like "outside of this site" people would object to saying he had a longevity problem.

I really can't work up any outrage at all for those who don't take longevity that seriously, I'm basically fine with it, but longevity is a very real thing and the only thing you should even consider doing if you think people are taking it too seriously is attempt to get more mathematically rigorous. Short of that, you're just blowing hot air.

[HeartBreakKid]

The majority of the people who voted in the RPOY project plus me believe that Magic did not deserve 2 of those MVPs.

You're right. These are the rankings. Magic is #1 only once, whereas Bird is #1 four times.

1980: Kareem, Dr. J., Bird, Moses, Magic
1981: Bird, Moses, Dr. J, Kareem
1982: Moses, Dr. J, Magic, Bird
1983: Moses, Bird, Magic
1984: Bird, Magic, Bernard
1985: Bird, Magic, Kareem, Moses, Jordan
1986: Bird, Magic, Hakeem
1987: Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem
1988: Jordan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem
1989: Jordan, Magic, Barkley, Hakeem
1990: Jordan, Magic, Barkley, Ewing
1991: Jordan, Magic, Karl Malone, Barkley

Considering that list shows Magic with 7 2nds and 4 of them against the GOAT according to this project Im not sure this is really a good argument against him, is it?

The point of bringing up the RPOY isn't to show that Bird is better than Magic, it is to debate the MVP point.

Someone implied that Bird's MVP's weren't as impressive because he won them over King, Wilkins and Pre-Prime Magic Johnson. Meanwhile, that individual (I think it was ardee) said that Magic won MVPs over Michael Jordan and Chuck.

The rebuttal to that was obviously that Magic didn't deserve most of his MVPs. The ROY would show that Jordan did. So it refutes the statement that Magic won MVPs over superior competition, because he wasn't actually better than Jordan.


Also, I think it is pretty telling that Magic surpasses Bird in the RPOY as Bird's injuries start to take a toll.

[Doctor MJ]

I love how the Kg supporters ignore the fact that KG missed the playoffs 3 straight years out of his prime...tell me what top 10 player does that? You're telling me Duncan, LbJ, Shaq Bird, Magic or even Kobe would miss playoffs 3 years of their prime? His team wasn't great those years but neither was Kobe's inbetween Shaq and Pau and he still got in. Duncan had an old Drob, young Manu and Parker before they were all stars and were still in contention and even won one. Let's not forget all the 1st round sweeps Kg had, a lot of which he didnt play well. So basically KG arguably wasn't even a top 5 player from 05-07, not sure you can be top 5 if your team didn't even make playoffs.

Look, Kg is definetly a top 20 player all time, or even top 15 i'd have no isssue with but these claims that Kg is top 8 is getting absurd.

Logically if you can miss the playoff once, and you have the same team again, you can keep missing the playoffs. The only coherent argument is that anyone who ever misses the playoffs isn't a top tier superstar.

Of course that's just absurd. We have a pretty good sense for what one player can and cannot do. There isn't anyone who ensures 50 wins in all situations.

[magicmerl]

Regular season: BIRD - by decent distance | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance
Regular season: BIRD - by good distance | Post season: BIRD - by good distance
Regular season: EVEN | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance
Regular season: EVEN | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance
Regular season: BIRD - by a decent distance | Post season: BIRD - slightly
Regular season: BIRD - slightly | Post season: BIRD - slightly
Regular season: BIRD - by decent distance | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance

So when they are contemporaries, Bird wins comfortably in the larger sample size (the regular season). For the playoffs, was either the East or the West unusually bad? The East has been weak for the last 15 years or so, which is a factor in why KG/Shaq/Duncan did not make the finals more than they did (because they had to go through each other). Did Magic or Bird play in the 'big boys' conference which could be a factor in their postseason results?

[ardee]

1986:

Regular season: BIRD - by decent distance | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance

HOF level post man.

But I have to disagree that Magic was better than Bird in the 1986 Playoffs.

I'm voting Magic here and this may seem like a quibble, but '86 Playoffs Bird was a different animal.

And honestly it doesn't just show up in the numbers, even though he had 26-9-8 on 50/40/90+.... 127 ORtg! His efficiency worsened a little bit against Houston but he was still very easily the best player in the series.

The first three rounds were comparable to '09 LeBron: not in terms of raw numbers but in overall play and sheer mastery of the game. Against Chicago (admittedly a poor opponent), Atlanta, and Milwaukee, he had a 129 ORtg... Scored 27 ppg on just 24.1 USG! Just think about how insane that is. To me, if anything, it shows you how key Bird was to the Celtics' incessant moving the ball.

He was 28-8-8 against Chicago in an easy win. In game 2, when Jordan had his famous 63, Bird matched him shot for shot down the stretch and finished with 36/12/8. His help on Jordan also helped the Cs finally shut him down in game 3.

Bird completely outplayed Nique in the second round, who btw was the MVP runner-up (undeserved, but it has to count for something...) It was worse than Olajuwon vs Robinson or LeBron vs Rose. Game 5 was probably the most one-sided game I've ever seen. The Cs were so in control they looked like they could just play around with the Hawks and blow them out, but then took it up another notch in the third quarter.

That 36-6 3rd quarter of the Hawks closeout game remains my favorite Larry Bird moment. The Hawks didn't even stop trying, they were killing themselves trying to compete, but Bird was unstoppable. He was blocking Nique's shots, stealing rebounds, initiating fast-breaks, and when they failed he got back across half court and got McHale and Parish easy baskets. Honestly, watching that quarter reminds me of when a 6'5 guy came to my local court a couple of years ago. We thought he'd post the hell out of us, but he just started dropping 3 after 3 after 3 and we couldn't do jack. On the other end he must've blocked half the shots our team put up.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_eN0xPjzfY[/youtube]

This was the pinnacle of basketball. 36/10/5 is something we see fairly often these days but when you actually watch the game, I've never seen someone so thoroughly dominate a game in every facet AND make it look so easy at the same time.

He had one of his best games ever in the closeout against Milwaukee, and the first signature moment with three-pointers. He spent the first three quarters dissecting the Bucks with touch passes and his help defense, and sealed things in the fourth by draining 4 straight threes to put them away.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFamuwa96sM[/youtube]

That touch pass at the start makes me happier than my ex ever did. (Saying things like that probably has to do with it, but still)

And you know about the Finals.

Man, that post made me feel like voting for Bird. I better go watch Magic's skyhook game.

Point being 1986 was one of the years I feel no one was close to Bird at all. It was like a 1991 Jordan or 1967 Wilt season.

[HeartBreakKid]

I love how the Kg supporters ignore the fact that KG missed the playoffs 3 straight years out of his prime...tell me what top 10 player does that? You're telling me Duncan, LbJ, Shaq Bird, Magic or even Kobe would miss playoffs 3 years of their prime? His team wasn't great those years but neither was Kobe's inbetween Shaq and Pau and he still got in. Duncan had an old Drob, young Manu and Parker before they were all stars and were still in contention and even won one. Let's not forget all the 1st round sweeps Kg had, a lot of which he didnt play well. So basically KG arguably wasn't even a top 5 player from 05-07, not sure you can be top 5 if your team didn't even make playoffs.

Look, Kg is definetly a top 20 player all time, or even top 15 i'd have no isssue with but these claims that Kg is top 8 is getting absurd.

Logically if you can miss the playoff once, and you have the same team again, you can keep missing the playoffs. The only coherent argument is that anyone who ever misses the playoffs isn't a top tier superstar.

Of course that's just absurd. We have a pretty good sense for what one player can and cannot do. There isn't anyone who ensures 50 wins in all situations.

That's the way I see it. If there are players who missed the playoffs in their prime, doesn't that mean that it is totally possible that a team could be so bad that someone misses the playoffs three times in a row?

It's like saying a coin flip is 50/50, does that mean that it is impossible to not get heads 3 flips in a row? Kareem was the second highest rated guy here, and he missed the playoffs in his prime - I mean if he can miss one, why couldn't Garnett miss three?

[E-Balla]

Regular season: BIRD - by decent distance | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance
Regular season: BIRD - by good distance | Post season: BIRD - by good distance
Regular season: EVEN | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance
Regular season: EVEN | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance
Regular season: BIRD - by a decent distance | Post season: BIRD - slightly
Regular season: BIRD - slightly | Post season: BIRD - slightly
Regular season: BIRD - by decent distance | Post season: MAGIC - by decent distance

So when they are contemporaries, Bird rushes in the larger sample size (the regular season). For the playoffs, was either the East or the West unusually bad? The East has been weak for the last 15 years or so, which is a factor in why KG/Shaq/Duncan did not make the finals more than they did (because they had to go through each other). Did Magic or Bird play in the 'big boys' conference which could be a factor in their postseason results?

Well that's why for Magic I kinda ignored how he played against the creampuff teams in my sample and I focused on the great teams he played and like teams they played. Magic still outplayed Bird in those series. I don't give magic credit for just making it the the Finals and CF yearly but I give him credit for laying well in the Finals and CF.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Gonna go against my gut here and vote for Hakeem.

He is a GOAT defensive C and throughout his playoff career he showed that he could also be a truly elite scorer.
Once he had a decent cast and a coach which fit him his passing numbers also became elite.

After him and Magic are voted in we can start looking at Bird, KG, Oscar, Kobe, Dirk, Malone and others.

Vote : Hakeem

[Texas Chuck]

The point of bringing up the RPOY isn't to show that Bird is better than Magic, it is to debate the MVP point.

Someone implied that Bird's MVP's weren't as impressive because he won them over King, Wilkins and Pre-Prime Magic Johnson. Meanwhile, that individual (I think it was ardee) said that Magic won MVPs over Michael Jordan and Chuck.

The rebuttal to that was obviously that Magic didn't deserve most of his MVPs. The ROY would show that Jordan did. So it refutes the statement that Magic won MVPs over superior competition, because he wasn't actually better than Jordan.


Also, I think it is pretty telling that Magic surpasses Bird in the RPOY as Bird's injuries start to take a toll.

Fair enough. thanks for putting that list into a better context for me.