RealGM Top 100 List #8

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olujaw 

Post#401 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:37 am

Some more quotes...

Role reversal in second season:

Spoiler:
The 1985-86 Rockets were very much the same team as the year before, except more mature. We had been playing together for a year, and the Twin Towers concepts didn’t have to be learned anymore, just refined. Ralph’s role and mine began to be reversed. Unlike my rookie year, Ralph pulled down more rebounds than I did that season and I out-scored him.


On John Lucas and his drug issues:

Spoiler:
Unfortunately, before the playoffs could begin we lost our point guard. John Lucas tested positive for drugs with seventeen games left in the season and was kicked off the team. Coach Fitch was very tough. Coach Fitch didn’t rely on the NBA to check on his players, he did his own checking. When Coach Fitch found out that Lucas was doing drugs he buried him, he didn’t let Lucas play. The NBA didn’t know, but Coach Fitch Knew. That’s the kind of coach he was. He was a man out of principle and I liked him for that. When the NBA finally found out, Lucas was banned from the league.


We had worked for two years to develop a team where everyone knew his role, where every role was filled, where every teammate knew if he just did what he was responsible for doing we would win. That had given us confidence, and now that confidence was shaken. We would have to adjust, move people from position to position. Robert Reid, bad knee and all, went from forward to point guard. He was 6’8” and playing against all these quick, quick guards and he did not have a point guard’s mentality, but he was the man Coach Fitch picked for the job. It’s not the kind of thing you want to do going into the playoffs.


Facing Kareem alongside Sampson:

Spoiler:
Maybe the Lakers were comfortable. They had beaten us with such easy in game one, maybe they lost some of their edge. I don’t know what it was but we came out in the second game and our team was ready. We were on top of them from the beginning, on the attack. In the first quarter I took the ball in for a powerful dunk—with *authority*. We were all playing with authority. “Block my shot Put your hand there and I will break it!” That kind of authority. Ralph was getting every rebound. The Lakers would attack but they couldn’t penetrate; our guards were pressing up front and Ralph and I challenged every ball that came into the lane. Every shot they took from the outside would miss, and we would snatch it and go down and throw it into the post. They didn’t have an answer for us.

Ralph was with Kareem and I was matched up against Maurice Lucas. Lucas had a great reputation; he was very strong, very physical, he could do everything but jump. He couldn’t guard me, I jumped all over him. Finally the Lakers had to put Kareem on me and I was throwing in the jump hook, the fade-away. Kareem was 7’2”, so I had to use the fade-away.

We worked Kareem on both ends. When he had the ball and beat Ralph, I was over Kareem’s shoulder every time. We were blocking the sky hook! Ralph denied him the middle and when Kareem turned to shoot I would come from the weak side and block him. Not once but *twice*! When I was guarding Kareem, Ralph would do the same thing. Kareem was thirty-nine, I was twenty-three. He had two big guys pushing him, putting hands on him. In the paper the next day Kareem was quoted: “It looked like these guys were dropping from the sky.”


End of G5:

Spoiler:
Game five was tight. We all played well. The Lakers brought in Mitch Kupchak to play me and he was pushing and throwing elbows, and finally in the fourth quarter I retaliated. We had a fight. The referees kicked us both out. I was upset with Kupchak for playing me that way and with myself for getting thrown out of such an important game. I went to the locker room and watched the last few minutes on TV.

With the score tied at 112 and one second to play, Rodney McCray inbounded to Sampson. With Kareem in his face Ralph jumped in the air, caught the ball, and in one motion—there wasn’t time for him to dribble; there wasn’t even time for him to come down—he turned and put up an arcing jump shot that started at about his waist. The whole L.A. Forum seemed to suck in its breath. When the ball came down it was right in the net.

We had beaten the Lakers! No one outside of our own organization had vein us a chance but we beat them four straight games because Coach Fitch had made us believe and had created a system that would win for us. (It is a tribute to the Lakers and their great championship spirit that they set about solving the problems we presented. Ralph and I banged Kareem around all series long and he went home that summer and worked hard in the gym to build up his body. He came back the next year more fit and solid than he had been in ten years and he wouldn’t be moved.) We had played great and kept our focus and optimism and our enthusiasm high and not listened to anyone who said we would fail. We were young, we were the future, and the future was now.


Thoughts on Bird:

Spoiler:
Larry Bird loved the game. He wasn’t graceful but he was smart, he knew his limitations, he worked hard and maximized his talent and stuck to basics, and it worked for him almost every time.

People didn’t see how Larry Bird got things done. I really didn’t know until I played against him. This guy was big. He was *wide* and he would box out and fight for every rebound. Bird used everything he had for that team. He couldn’t jump but he was 6’9” and heavy. He was a forward and many times when I picked off my man and was getting in position for the rebound he would see me coming and box me out before I could get there. He was strong and always pushing and grabbing, and as quick and young as I was I couldn’t get around him.

Back then people were saying he didn’t have any talent; he’s a basketball player but not an athlete. Because Bird made it look so easy by hitting all his open shots and grabbing balls without jumping, people didn’t see how hard he worked. I had played only four games against him in two years in the league, and the Celtics had won all four. It wasn’t until this series that I really understood how good he was, and then I saw what Coach Fitch had been saying about his hard work and I developed an even deeper respect for his game.


G4 and Walton:

Spoiler:
It was a tough series that opened at Boston Garden. When we had played there during the regular season Ralph had taken a hard fall. Someone had undercut him, and ever since he hadn’t had a good game in Boston. We had a chance in the first game but lost it and then got blown out in the second. We came back to Houston and won game three. Game four at the Summit was the turning point.

It was close. At the end of regulation I went for a block and the shooter missed. Bill Walton—who had starred while winning a championship with the Portland Trail Blazers and then gotten injured and now, nine years later, was coming off the bench for the Celtics—got the ball. Walton was a true big man. He didn’t put the ball on the floor, he kept everything up by his chest with his elbows out like railroad ties, just like his coaches had taught him. UCLA coach John Wooden had done a very good job with a very good student; Bill Walton was fundamentally sound. Coach Lewis would have loved him. When our coaches showed us Walton’s form I said, “That’s impossible. How can he do it like that?” I didn’t believe it until I saw him do it myself. With the ball at his chest Walton could snap a pass or go up for a dunk or shoot the jump hook. Bill Walton had the best jump hook in the league that year, that was his strength.

So with a few seconds left Walton faked the shot. I almost went for it but I recovered. Right then I saw there was no way he could shoot over me. I had him. When he went up to shoot I went straight up with him.

But Walton had a very quick release. I touched the ball. *I touched it!* The ball barely glanced off the glass and went in.

That was the backbreaker. A crucial basket, the turning point.

I had him, I knew i had him. I had my legs under me, I was in good position, I went for it, *I touched the ball!* Nine times out of ten I block that shot, but he shot over me.


More drug issues and Sampson's injury in 86-87:

Spoiler:
Things didn’t work out as I’d planned. In the middle of the 1986-87 season our front court, Lewis Lloyd and Mitchell Wiggins, tested positive for drugs and were banned from the league. John Lucas had been banned the year before. Drugs in the NBA were a real problem.

Worse, a little more than a third of the way into the season Ralph Sampson went down.

Ralph was a big man who could play like a guard and he liked to do it. He could dribble the length of the court, he had one-on-one moves that were unusual for a man his size, he was fast and graceful and agile—and fragile. Not soft, just breakable. Ralph was so tall and had such long legs that his knees, which supported his weight and were called upon to do more twisting and turning than they were designed for, were always vulnerable. His knee finally gave way. His injury was a real tragedy.

Ralph had surgery and went directly into physical therapy and rehabilitation but he was never the same after that. His game relied on his quickness and mobility, his ability to change direction in an instant, and with bad knees that was no longer possible. I felt very sad for him. Before the injury he had been under constant pressure to be consistently great. Afterward it was just a constant struggle just to play at all. Maybe because he had performed so effortlessly, Ralph got the reputation of being lazy. But I was there and I saw, from the inside, that he was just the opposite. He stretched, he trained, he would stay after practice and work with weights. People said he was weak and lazy. No. He was a very hard worker. His problem was that his body betrayed him. It never came back.

With Ralph gone for most of the season and our backcourt decimated, we were in trouble. We needed pliers all over the court and we needed someone in management to look forward and begin putting together the Rockets of the future. Only six months before, the future had looked bright. Now it was clouded with questions.


On Sampson being traded (87-88):

Spoiler:
Nineteen games into the 1987-88 season the Rockets traded Ralph Sampson. We could almost see it coming. Ralph’s knee was not perfect and when games got to crunch time Coach Fitch beta playing Jim Petersen in his place.

Ralph and guard Steve Harris were traded to the Golden State Warriors for center Joe Barry Carroll, guard Eric “Sleepy” Floyd, and cash.

The Rockets’ organization didn’t do it gracefully. We had just come back from a road game in Chicago when an older gentleman from the front office came to the airport and told Coach Fitch. They didn’t show Ralph the courtesy of telling him in private. He had been the Rookie of the Year, the All-Star Game MVP, an All-NBA performer for the team, and they gave him no respect. Rather than doing it in a proper setting where he could react to this upsetting news privately, they pulled Ralph aside in the airport lounge where everyone could see and told him he had been traded. I thought that was very cold.

Ralph’s whole career was undermined by expectations that he shouldn’t have had to live up to. Ralph was even more fragile after knee surgery; he certainly wasn’t going to go inside and bang with the power forwards and he had lost some of the mobility that made him such an unusually quick and gaveled big man. And still people wanted him to perform miracles. He should never have been asked to be a post-up center; he wasn’t built for it. He and I complemented each other, and even though we didn’t have a close personal relationship I enjoyed playing with him and we played well together. People who had been on his case from the beginning—media and some fans—called him lazy, didn’t appreciate the things Ralph could do, and instead wanted him to do things he couldn’t. He left Houston without people truly understanding what a good player they had been seeing.


Hakeem and Fitch's firing:

Spoiler:
There were rumors that I got Coach Fitch fired, but I liked Coach Fitch, and Coach Fitch knew I liked him; we had a good relationship and I liked his system. Coach Fitch thought of the team first, himself second. You could have a one-on-one confrontation with the coach and that was okay, he didn’t care if you or anyone else liked him. But if you did something that hurt the team he would take you apart. His discipline was firm but he let you know in the beginning that he expected to be obeyed. Just do your job and you had no problem. There were no surprises with Coach Fitch. I thought his values were very strong.

Coach Fitch knew I liked him. At the end of our playoffs he came up and told me, “I’m proud of you. And I deserve a lot of the credit.” He did! He is a proud man and he helped me tremendously by drilling into my mind the work ethic necessary for me to establish myself in the league. I had come in as a number-one draft choice, the first pick in the draft; another coach might have let me coach or might have settled for less than my best. That would have been a disaster; if a new player learns he can do just enough to get by he will never achieve the full power of his potential. That was not going to happen with Coach Fitch, he was going to wring every last drop of ability out of me. I will always appreciate him for that.


Thoughts on Chaney as coach in 89-90:

Spoiler:
Back at the Summit the Rockets had traded Rodney McCray and my friend Jim Petersen for rebounding forward Otis Thorpe, and had hired Don Chaney as coach. This was a big change.

Everybody had been complaining about Bill Fitch’s system and they wanted to bring in somebody who was just the opposite. Don Chaney was the other side of Bill Fitch. Don Chaney was a nice guy. Nice guys, as they say, finish last.

Don Chaney had been a guard on Coach Lewis’s great University of Houston teams of the late sixties. He came in and tried to please everybody. It didn’t work. He just couldn’t take charge and make the men do what we were supposed to do. Where it would cost someone money if he so much as dribbled the ball after Coach Fitch blew the whistle, the guys tested Chaney and he didn’t stand up to them. We went from strict to loose, we lost our discipline. Coach Chaney didn’t like confrontation and the guys knew it. From January 1 to the end of the season we played .500 ball. We came in second in the Midwest but were seeded fifth in the Western Conference playoffs and were eliminated in the first round by the Seattle Supersonics. I was disappointed but I wasn’t surprised.


There's a nice big section he wrote on MJ, but I don't have enough time to type it now (it's like 5-6 pages I think). 90salldecade posted a lot of good stuff already, and said he'd post about Hakeem's thoughts on Shaq and Ewing later:

90sAllDecade wrote:When I have time I’ll post more about his strategy against Ewing and Shaq. You can read his book he explains it all.


(if he has the time, maybe he can grab something about Robinson, though it's up to him. :) ).

There's actually a good quote section about Hakeem training during the summer of 92, if I have a chance I'll try and type it before the deadline for the runoff tomorrow.
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olujaw 

Post#402 » by ronnymac2 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:49 am

^^^Fantastic stuff fpliii and 90sAllDecade.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#403 » by acrossthecourt » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:01 am

O_6 wrote:I feel like the 7 players voted in fit into 3 different categories based on why they were voted in...

2-Way BIGS: Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq
2-Way wings: Jordan, LeBron
1-Way GOAT impact: Bill Russell

That's a very general way to look at it. Obviously, Shaq's defense wasn't the greatest and LeBron/Jordan are where they are primarily because of offense. But Shaq was a plus defender and a true impact defender for stretches, and MJ/Bron were both very valuable defenders which helps them create a more complete case for GOAT. Bill Russell is pretty much unique because of how undisputed his Defensive GOATness is. The questions with him come from era-translation and offensive impact. But his defensive dominance carried him to a Top 3 vote on this list.

These are where my candidates for our #8 spot fit in...

2-Way BIGS: Hakeem, Garnett
2-Way Wings: Kobe, Dr. J (although Kobe's D is questioned and Dr. J's man-D is questioned)
1-Way GOAT impact: Magic, Bird, Oscar
Others: Dirk, K. Malone, Moses, Barkley, West (Offense-heavy Bigs but not GOAT offense contenders + West who was a straight up killer and may be the GOAT if the 3pt line existed back then)

If Shaq is a two-way player, then so is Karl Malone. Karl was, I feel, a much better defender over the duration of his career, and I believe he racked up more defensive accolades and respect at the time.

This two-way discussion is a bit odd. Even Russell, as one-way as he can be, is a great passer and led his team in points in some finals series. Shaq feels more like a one-way player. A disproportionate amount of his value comes from the offensive end.

I guess it depends on how you define two-way, what the minimum value you need on your weaker end, but it's a bit arbitrary. What matters is your overall impact.

penbeast0 wrote:As we come to the end of regulation it's Hakeem making a late rush with all four of the new votes this afternoon to move into the runoff against Magic. Please focus your posts on Magic v. Hakeem; we will have a new thread tomorrow to discuss other players.


Magic 14 -- GC Pantalones, magicmer1, basketballefan, JordansBulls, Chuck Texas, penbeast0, Clyde Frazier, trex 8063, ardee, batmana, andrewww, An Unbiased Fan, john248, SactoKingsFan

Hakeem 8 -- Heartbreak Kid, threalbig3, Gregoire, ronnymac2, MacGill, 90sAllDecade, fpliii, RayBan-Sematra

Bird 6 -- DQuinn 1575, Baller 2014, Warspite, DannyNoonan 1221, rich 316, RSCD3

KG 2 -- Doctor MJ, PC Productions


You forgot my vote for Magic.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olujaw 

Post#404 » by rich316 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:21 am

Run-off vote - Hakeem Olajuwon.

Spots 7-10 are really close, it mostly comes down to personal preference. However, the difference for me in the Bird/Lebron/Magic/Hakeem group is defense. All have comparable longevity, but they offer different strengths. Lebron is the most well-rounded, and Hakeem is by far the best defender and rebounder of the group. The voters have (correctly, IMO) placed high value on defense and bigs thus far in the discussion. I think it would be a nice statement for these rankings to go that route, in tribute to the value of dominant centers.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#405 » by trex_8063 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:23 am

My run-off vote: Magic Johnson.

Arguably the most impactful offensive player ever. Obv it's very debatable, but he's at least got to be right up there with Jordan, Nash, Lebron.
Career ORtg of 121, once as high as 126 (FOUR seasons with 124+ rating!); I know ORtg's leaned a little higher in that era, but d***! that's still pretty impressive. From '86 until he was forced into retirement, he had AST% >45% EVERY YEAR, while only ONCE having a TOV% >20%; also had a TS% >.600 for all but one of those years. All-time leader in apg, 5th all-time in career assists; 1st all-time in career playoff assists, which happens to be one of those marks that I don't think will be touched in my lifetime.
Obviously he had a lot of help, but during his 12 relevant years in LA, the Lakers were:
#1 rated offense SEVEN TIMES.
#2 rated offense TWICE.
#5 rated offense TWICE.
#7 rated offense once (and that one time was the year Magic missed 45 games with injury).

And although he's perhaps not in the + column defensively, I don't think he's a defensive liability like Nash was. And he offered you a certain versatility that could come in handy in times of crisis (like it did in the finals his rookie season).

I could go one with more numbers or some highlight reels, but really it's been done to death already on this and prior threads.
imo, there's been some compelling stuff re: Bird itt; he's the only one I'd consider changing my vote for. I was really close to doing so, or at least abstaining because I can't decide between them; but the end of regulation hit before I could change my vote. In this particular run-off, I'm happy re-affirming my vote for Magic.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 

Post#406 » by lorak » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:21 am

O_6 wrote:I
Magic vs. Bird vs. Oscar
This is a very tough comparison for me to make, especially with having Oscar sneak in there. I would've loved to have ignored Oscar, but I would have been lying to myself. He absolutely belongs in the discussion imo. A lot of the same strengths that people are championing for Magic also apply to Oscar. That being said, I feel like Magic was just a better version of Oscar.


What are the reasons you feel that way?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olujaw 

Post#407 » by Baller2014 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:18 am

Run-off vote= Magic

I'm re-affirming my vote for Magic. I was originally voting for him over Bird and Lebron anyway, so this shouldn't come as a great surprise. Magic was the offensive GOAT, has pretty great longevity, and very few disappointments (81, 86 and 90 being the 3 cases I can find). Hakeem and Magic were fortunate enough to have a large slice of their careers overlap, and during that period there was never any doubt in the public discussion that Magic was the superior player. I could maybe buy Hakeem's peak was better than Magic's, but what then? Magic's still better for the rest of Hakeem's career, and I'm not seeing a longevity advantage for Hakeem to compensate.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olujaw 

Post#408 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:53 am

Had some time after getting home, so I typed up some quotes about Hakeem's summer training (same book).

Summer 81 (age 18, first of three summers playing Moses):

Spoiler:
I was playing sports too much to watch a lot of it on television. At home in Nigeria the only televised sports was a show called *Saturday Sports,* and it only showed soccer games. Everybody watched the soccer game. So it was strange to be able to turn on the set and see basketball. I had heard all the stories: David Thompson jumped so high he could take a silver dollar off the top of the backboard; Dr. J, with his Afro, could take it off and make change. Guys said there were witnesses. After that I had gone and looked at a backboard, thinking, I have to see this. And every once in a while I would see the Houston Rockets play on TV. Calvin Murphy was an All-Star for the Rockets, and the big man, the center, the MVP, was Moses Malone. That spring Coach T had told me, “This summer you will play against this guy.”

“Really?” I couldn’t believe that.

“Yeah, he plays at Fonde.” Fonde Recreation Center (pronounced “*Fond*-ee”) was where everyone went to play in the summer.

“Wow! He plays with non-professionals?”

“Yeah. You’ll see.”

I noticed the cars right away. There were Mercedeses and Jaguars and Porsches. Everybody had one. I thought, these people must be very successful.

Fonde was a simple brick building on a major street in downtown Houston and it drew the best basketball players in the state. Professionals would come after their seasons were over, guys in the NBA and on teams in Europe; the Cougar team was on the court all the time; playground and street ballers were trying to impress everyone. It was the Mecca for Houston summer basketball.

Fonde was dark, two rooms, dirty windows, always humid and hot. It had fold-down bleachers and smelled like a gym, but they tried to keep it neat so people wouldn’t be afraid to come and watch. There was a locker room but before games nobody used it; you came to play. Fonde had two courts separated by a blue plastic screen. One of them always had two half-court games going on between street players. The other was for the Cougars and the pros.

It was summer 1981. Fonde started at four in the afternoon. Coach T was in charge of the first three games; he chose the UH squad and even if we lost we stayed on. This was the center’s way of making sure we showed up.

Coach T put on the floor the team he thought would start the next few years: Clyde Drexler, Michael Young, Lynden Rose, Larry Micheaux, and me. Rob Williams, UH’s first team All-SWC guard, was a special case.

Rob Williams and Indiana University’s Isiah Thomas were being called the best two college guards in the country. Williams had fantastic skills, he was a sharpshooter, a great ballhandler, and when he played he was so quick the pros couldn’t stay with him. He was the University of Houston’s main attraction. Williams was going into his junior year but the coaches weren’t really counting on him too much that summer because they were looking to the future of the team and they knew he would be leaving, turning pro after the season. Williams would show up every once in a while. He had his clothes, his Datson 300ZX with the T-top sunroof you could take off and put in the trunk. He got all the attention.

So we would play against the pros. There would be five NBA players on the court and another dozen or so waiting to get in the game. A lot of the Hoston Rockets lived in the city and you’d see Robert Reid, Allen Leavell, Tom Henderson, Major Jones, Joe “Jellybean” Bryant, plus Alton Lister, Jackie Dorsey, Cliff Levingston. Games were to fifteen, you had to win by two. We would challenge them and always play them tough; we weren’t getting blown out.

Then Moses Malone showed up. He was a little late for the beginning of the Fonde season because the Rockets had just lost to the Boston Celtics four games to two in the NBA Championship Finals.

I had heard about Moses. Everybody knew about Moses. He was the ultimate, the best center, the best player in the league. So when Moses came to the gym the first time it was like, *“The MVP!”* I didn’t know exactly what that meant, I didn’t know much about the National Basketball Association or what being the most valuable player in it really signified, but I knew he was a million-dollar player and that everybody at Fonde got out of his way.

When Moses came to the gym I was excited. I knew he was known for his rebounding, that he was a hardworking player, real physical. To play against him was big excitement for me. He had just averaged twenty-eight points and fifteen rebounds a game against the best players in the world in the NBA. He dominated his whole league, so who was I? He was supposed to dominate me.

But I had a sense of pride. For the weeks before Moses arrived at Fonde, I had been playing against power forwards and had been very effective, blocking a lot of shots. I didn’t want him to embarrass me. I had to compete. I felt a combination of excitement, fear, and intimidation. I wanted to see how I measured up.

Now the pros had their main guy and Moses didn’t give me a break. He realized immediately that I was a shot blocker and he used his strength and power to prevent me from blocking his shot. He was also much quicker than anybody I had ever played against. The other pros would back in against me and use their bigger bodies, but when they would put their shots up I would come back and still block them. The first time he tried to post up I pushed him, but he overpowered me and went through me like I wasn’t even there. Moses’s power was very quick; he would dribble and back me in, and every time he used his power move he would plane his right leg and seal me. He was so strong I couldn’t go around him and so quick that by the time I got back from taking his hit and tried to get up and block him, he was already gone. I was jumping behind him, and every time I jumped he just bounced off me.

There was nothing I could do with Moses. If he sealed me and turned to the inside, he had a lay-up. If I tried to cut him off to the inside, he had a running hook so he just turned and made that. Moses was an expert in sealing his man; once he sealed you, you could only foul him. Terence was coaching me—Do this, do that—and I was competing very hard against him, but Moses scored on me anytime he wanted to.

And Moses would talk on the court. He never instructed me—not once did he tell me how to do something—but I watched the way he played and it was all-out. There was no weakness allowed. You did not call a tick tack foul at Fonde. You’re going to the basket and someone slashes at your arm, you don’t call a foul—you go in and dunk on him. Your man beats you on defense, now you want to call traveling? No, you got beat. “Be a man!” That was the phrase at Fonde. You heard it all the time. Moses would back into me, I would grunt, and he would back in again. And each time he hit me he would say, *”Be a man! Be a man!”*

But I never stopped competing against him, and as I got better I started to challenge his shot more often. I was quick enough to cut him off sometimes and force him to go with the running hook. I only hoped I could get it, or make him change his shot and maybe miss. I was bothering his shot!

I was so busy on defense that my offense was not productive. I would run and try to beat him down the floor and sometimes I would get a nice dunk, but when I tried to post up, Moses would just move me away from the box. I couldn’t get close, I wasn’t strong enough to pound against him, I would feel like I was running into a wall. I would get the ball, but it on the floor, do my turnaround, and he would challenge it. “Gotta be hungry for those blocks and rebounds,” he said, . “Eat ‘em up.” He was dominating me, that was very clear.

We very rarely won against the pros. Every time the game was close and we had a chance to take it, they would got to Moses down low and he would use his power move and score. If I blocked it I would be satisfied for days; coming close wasn’t enough. I loved that move so much, but I couldn’t copy it; Moses had great strength in both legs, he could explode off his left *and* his right, while I was strong only on my left. The drop step was his strongest move. I shot my jump hook off my left, my pivot foot. If I shot coming to my right I would get it blocked, but Moses was unstoppable whichever way he wanted to go.

Moses was serious, he wasn’t playing around with me, but it was because I was pushing him, I was actually giving him a game. He knew if he gave me an opportunity I would take it over him, so he was trying to kill all opportunity. When I shot the ball he boxed me out, went and got the rebound, ran the floor, made his power move real quick. He was doing everything *real,* in *real* time with *real* effort. He showed me the respect of playing hard against me.

That gave me confidence, mentally and physically. I began to feel, Wow, if I can play with Moses then college should be easy; there’s no big man who can play like Moses.


Summer 82:

Spoiler:
Fonde in the summer of ’82 was very competitive. There were street players on the court who were as good or better than anybody out there. We were a Final Four team now, and we were still young. The Rockets had been beaten in the first round of the NBA playoffs. We started beating them more often than before. Not all the time, but enough to make us feel strong. Now all the professionals wanted to play. They had Moses and Robert Reid, Major Jones, Alan Leavell; some European players came in. The crowds got bigger and the place got sweatier as the games got more competitive.

I competed against Moses at Fonde all summer again. He had been named the NBA’s Most Valuable Player for the second time only a few weeks before. *”Be a man!”* Putting the ball on the floor; exploding to the basket; trying to block his shot; banging on the boards. I loved it, and because I was playing against the best player in the game, my game kept growing.


Summer 83:

Spoiler:
Fonde was very competitive again that summer and I liked that. We Houston Cougars had our reputation and we played the pros even together. There was no pressure, only the desire every day to play my best against the best. Moses was there again and we always went at it.


Summer 92 (personal trainer, weight training, brief session with Shaq):

Spoiler:
I worked hard that summer I hired a trainer named Charles who helped with my program, and each morning Charles would pick me up and I would run on the beach. I didn’t like running in the sand, it was tough on me, but it was worthwhile, building up endurance. I would eat a light lunch and in the afternoon I would lift weights. In the evenings Charles and I would go to a local high school and shoot buckets and work on my moves.

Charles also took me to Gold’s Gym. He told me it was the weight trainer’s Mecca. I had been to Mecca, all my life Mecca to me had meant the city in Saudi Arabia, the center of Islam. I didn’t know that Mecca also meant the ultimate center, an ultimate place to go, but when I walked into Gold’s Gym I understood exactly when he meant.

These people were like animals. Enormous animals. Even the women. Everyone there was pumped up and full of muscle and I looked so skinny. There were women much thicker than I was and everybody was so intense. I said, “This is a place for the devoted. If you’re not serious you shouldn’t even be walking in here.”

When I’d gotten to the University of Houston they’d taken me into the weight room the first say and I hadn’t been able to lift the bar off my chest. The bar, by itself. I didn’t have the technique and i wasn’t very strong. I had put on a little strength since then but I said to Charles, “This is not my game.” He understood clearly.

I started building by using light weights scaled to my abilities. At first it was strange. I had to get used to the technique and the concentration. But the more I wired with these weights the more I relaxed. In three days I really grew to like it.

I also realized I was getting immediate benefit from these workouts. When I took my shot or worked on my moves all the pain that I usually had in my knees and ankles went away. I was used to having my back ache and my muscles be tight and sore after a good session on the court—if you don’t really work out you can’t do the moves—but now everything seemed so relaxed and easy. Still, I would go to sleep *tired* at night and be sore in the morning. I knew if it was just me I would feel so tired I wouldn’t go work out the next day, but Charles really pushed me and I would warm up and be surprised to feel my body respond and recover quickly.

Charles had arranged for some high school students to rebound for me, so all I did on the court was work on individual moves.

I had never worked on my moves before. During the summers at Fonde I just played and competed, and whatever I wanted to try I tried in game competition. I had never stood off to one side and worked on footwork or leaping or any technique at all, I had worked on learning what worked, I had worked on winning. This was very different.

There was music in the background, a tape of pop music, and it made me creative. I had a lot of energy. I would shoot my jumper and see how high I could go and release the ball. In my mind I saw myself making each move and I felt like it was art. I would fake right, fake left, spin to the baseline. There was a rhythm, like I was dancing to the music. I felt like I was dancing on the court.

My jump hook had extra spring. Everything was sharp. I would make a jump hook, get tossed the rebound, take one bounce, and *go!* I could tell I was on top of my game. In athletics everything is control, you don’t do anything in a lazy way. I had energy and my breathing was wary because I was in condition.

I would shoot twenty-five jump hooks from the right side. Not just ordinary jump hooks, we were talking about preparing at a certain angle and jump hooks of a certain height. You did it right or you did it over. I stopped thinking about the jump hook and just shot it.

Then we worked on shooting jumpers from behind a pick. Sometimes in the past I would get the ball and realize I didn’t want to shoot it. Now I began thinking like a guard, like the in-between player I was. I would work on making my inside foot, the one closest to the basket, hit the floor just as I got the ball so when I jumped to shoot I was already squared up, shoulders facing the basket. It’s all in the footwork. Inside foot, outside foot, spring. If your feet are underneath you and your shoulders are not spinning to catch up, you will be balanced, your elevation will be better, you will jump higher and straighter and will have more time to take a good look at the basket. I saw how high I was jumping and that I was getting a good release. My shot was falling very softly. I was even hanging for a while and I had time, If I didn’t like the shot I was taking, to make different choices. I could pass in front of me; I had time to find an open man on the perimeter. I was in control.

All of a sudden basketball became new again! I pictured myself shooting from the outside. My game had been all spinning moves for a couple of years; every game I was going up against men bigger than I was but not as mobile, and I could spin in the paint and lose them. Now I began to bring those moves outside. If you can handle the ball a little bit outside you can spin and shoot the jumper, which makes your game much more dangerous because now they have to come get you and you can go right around them. When I pictured that I really got motivated!

I was being represented at the time by the Los Angeles-based agent Leonard Armato and one day he brought one of his new clients to the high school gym, this guy just out of Louisiana State University, Shaquille O’Neal.

I had spent entire summers going up against Moses Malone so I had some idea of what Shaquille might be thinking when he met me on the gym floor. *”Be a man!”* But Armato had told me Shaquille had said some very complimentary things about me, and, of course, I had heard about the number-one pick in the 1992 draft. I was having such a good time getting into condition and working on my moves that I invited Shaquille to work with me. This was not a game and we were not competing, this was going to be very pleasant. We trained together that day.

The first thing I noticed about Shaquille was that he was a lot bigger than I was. I was 6’11” and weighted about 250 pound he was 7’2” and up around 300—and still growing! He had the perfect big man’s body; once he got in the paint there was nothing anybody was going to be able to do with him.

We practiced moves together, big man’s moves. He tossed me the ball and I put up a jump hook. I tossed him the ball and he did exactly what I did. We did that a couple of times. Then, as a courtesy, I said, “You do something and I’ll follow you.” He put up a turnaround jumper and I did the same thing.

To show him how to fake the turnaround and use it as a threat to make the jump hook more effective, I told him, “Okay, you guard me.”

He iddn’t know whether I was going to shoot the jumper or the jump hook. The players I had gone up against in the league or in practice had consistently fallen for the fake. I got the ball with my back to the basket and faked to my right. He bought the fake. I turned hard to my left, and shot the jump hook. At that moment he was lost; that move was sharp and new to him.

But the next time I tried it Shaquille straightened out. That’s when I realized how quick Shaquille was. In the league when they go for the fakes they never recover. But that’s what was different about Shaquille, he recovered and was there for the block. Shaquille wanted to block everything. I remembered how that felt.

Then I gave Shaquille the ball and showed him the basics of the Dream Shake. I showed him the moves and the footwork. Why would I do that when I knew we were going to play against each other for the next ten or fifteen years? I like sharing moves. If you’re scared about competition you shouldn’t even be in this league. I take joy in watching a skillful big man use his skills and I knew that if he wanted to, Shaquille would use the Dream Shake well.

Then I guarded him.

Shaquille was a fast learner. I had showed my moves to people before, and very often I’ had to instruct them over and over, something would be wrong. Not Shaquille. If he saw it he could do it. Show him, give him the ball, and he’ll do it exactly. I saw how high he jumped, how he released the ball far out of my reach. He was bigger and stronger than I was and he was taking my shot at a higher level. I was there to block him if he tried only half-heartedly, but he found right away that if the move was *sharp* he could beat me. That, in a single lesson, is the bottom line of the NBA: Play hard, if people respect you move they will back off and you can beat them. And Shaquille got it.

Shaquille showed me some moves of his own. He had power and energy and he was young. He did not really shoot a hook shot, he threw it down. I would finish a move with a jump hook a few feet from the basket, he would finish with a hook *dunk* with his hand inside the rim! He also had a nice touch on his turnaround jump shot, which was unusual for a man as big as he was. The jumper was natural, nice touch, particularly from the baseline. He was so big I didn’t have time to see if he was faking, I had to go up with him in order to have any chance to block him. One time he faked, I went up and he went under me. He made a nice move on me. I had tremendous respect for his ability.

In the league we would hear about kids in college who were going to come out and be a force, but we never knew what was hype and what was truth. College reputations are fine for college players, but in the pros you make your name all over again. Some guys start from scratch, some come from nowhere, some guys surpass expectations, and some can never live up to them. None of this was Shaquille’s problem. I knew right away this young man was going to terrorize the league. Any publicity he was going to get, he deserved it.

It was a wonderful morning. We worked together for two hours and it was very good to practice my post moves against someone who could play strong defense against them. Shaquille worked hard and so did I.

I enjoyed playing with Shaquille and I enjoyed being with him. He was a cool guy. No ego. I told him I really liked his nickname: Shaq. Some nicknames are just okay but his rhymed and it had the right meaning, that was his game. Shaq Attack. I liked my nickname for the same reason, it rhymed and it had the right meaning: The Dream. My whole life was too good to be true. I told him and he smiled. He seemed kind of shy. We talked and he knew I liked him right away. We established a relationship with mutual respect and I was very happy to have met him.


Hope these help. :)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olujaw 

Post#409 » by Quotatious » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:30 am

Runoff vote - Hakeem Olajuwon

I just wanted to thank ronnymac for all of his posts on Hakeem, and trying to prove that pre-1993 Hakeem was among the very best players in the NBA, even if he was a bit worse than his '93-'96 self. That's what I've been saying since the #4 voting.

I'm surprised that Olajuwon hasn't been voted in yet, knowing how many fans he has on the PC board (and Wilt being voted over him is perhaps the most surprising thing so far in this project, at least to me).

Why Hakeem over Magic? For me, it comes down to this - Magic is a GOAT level offensive player (top 3), Hakeem is a GOAT level defensive player (also top 3). I don't think there's any doubt whether Olajuwon was better offensively than Magic was defensively - he clearly was, and I don't think there's any evidence to the contrary. It means that Olajuwon's overall impact was greater than Johnson's. I agree with the notion that individual offense is more valuable than individual defense, but Hakeem also had a huge impact on TEAM defense, he was a true defensive anchor - it's not like we're comparing Magic to Karl Malone here (so an excellent defender, but mostly in terms of his man-to-man defense, but who didn't have that much impact on his team's defense as a whole).
Hakeem also has clearly better longevity - 15 seasons of All-Star level play (1984-85 to 1998-99), with 10-12 of those on a superstar level, I mean top 5 in the league level, 40250 RS minutes + 5663 PS minutes, 45913 total minutes, compared to just 12 seasons and 40783 minutes (33245 RS + 7538 PS) for Magic. That's 5130 more minutes played by Hakeem. That's two more full 82-game seasons at 31.3 MPG. Methinks it'd be a nice tiebreaker even if someone thought that Magic was a little better or they were even. I DO realize that Magic could've still played at superstar level if he hadn't been diagnosed with HIV, but it's still a fact that he retired prematurely because of that, and I think we have to base our opinion on facts rather than speculation (even if the speculation seems like a sure thing here).

Olajuwon was a better playoff performer, particularly in the mid 90s when the Western conference was a lot stronger than it was during Magic's prime in the 80s. For instance, let's take a look at the 1987 Lakers and 1994 Rockets (peak seasons for Magic and Hakeem) - average SRS of the '87 Lakers' opponents was +0.75 (and even the Celtics weren't as good as their 6.58 SRS suggests, because McHale's foot injury made him less mobile). Lakers finished 65-17 and had 8.32 SRS, so on paper, they were light years better than all of their Western conference opponents (Nuggets and Warriors, whom they faced in the first and second round, respectively, actually had NEGATIVE SRS, and their WCF rivals, the Sonics, had +0.08 SRS but negative record, going 39-43). Even the Celtics were rather clearly worse (but obviously still in a different galaxy than these Western teams), especially considering McHale's injury.

1994 Rockets went 58-24 on 4.19 SRS, and faced teams that were on average BETTER then they were - 4.47 SRS. I know that SRS may be misleading (for instance, the 2009 Cavs weren't anywhere near as good as their record or SRS suggests), but it's clearly no contest here. The same holds true for 1988 Lakers (they had 4.81 SRS, their opponents' average was 1.75) and the 1995 Rockets (2.32 SRS, which is quite misleading because the addition of Drexler in mid February was a major change - they were much better than a 2.32 SRS team in the playoffs, but still, their playoff opponents' SRS was 5.99 - I've never really looked into the biggest difference between a championship team's SRS and their opponents' SRS, but I'm sure the 1995 Rockets are at, or near, the top in this regard, in terms of beating seemingly superior teams throughout the entire playoffs).

Let's take a look at the 1986 Lakers and 1993 Rockets, two teams that didn't win a championship - 1986 Lakers' opponents SRS was +0.25 (and obviously they lost to the Rockets led by sophomore Hakeem as a heavy favorite...), 1993 Rockets' opponents were on average a +3.50 teams (and if the Rockets won game 7 against Seattle in the semifinals, they would've faced the 6.27 SRS Suns.

These things are especially noteworthy considering that peak Olajuwon (not just one peak season, but 3 in the early-to-mid 90s) performed better against stronger opposition than Magic did. It's not like Johnson struggled, no, he was a great playoff performer as well, but Hakeem was just spectacular in this regard.

I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees that peak Hakeem was better than peak Magic, and I think it's still rather clear that Olajuwon had a superior stretch of the top 3 consecutive seasons as well (for Hakeem it's clearly 1993-95, for Magic I guess 1987-89), and as I've said before, better longevity and better offense/defense ratio (in other words, more of a two-way player, but "two-way player" here isn't an euphemism for a player who isn't elite on either side of the court - Hakeem was actually elite on both - for the most part, he was better on the defensive end, but also a great offensive player, while Magic was GOAT-ish on offense but just league average defensively, sometimes a bit above average, sometimes slightly below).

Also, I've seen some people (Baller, IIRC), asking Hakeem's supporters what do we make of his flaws, like his mediocre passing for a large part of his career, or his foul proneness - for me, the answer is pretty simple - every player has a weakness, and it's not really that difficult to point out Magic's flaws - he wasn't much of a shooter for a large part of his career (speaking not only of his lack of a 3-point shot, which wasn't much of an issue in the 80s as the 3-ball hadn't been utilized nearly as much as it is today, but he also didn't even have much of a pull-up midrange jumper in the early/mid 80s, except for his hook shot. Sure, he was a genius in terms of playing to his strengths (transition, post game, offensive rebounding, opportunity baskets), but a really smart defense could limit his scoring opportunities, or even make him more or less inefficient - for example, look at the 1991 finals - Bulls effectively denied Magic the chances to be effective scoring in the paint (and it was when he had already developed an outside shot, but as a matter of fact, it always remained an inconsistent and unreliable way to score for him). Having a perimeter defender of Jordan's or Pippen's caliber is a luxury that very few teams have, let alone BOTH of them, but it was possible to slow him down because of certain deficiencies in his skillset.

His defense is another weakness - he's the worst defender of any top 15, or even top 20 (if you don't have Barkley or Nash in your top 20) player. It really hurts when you compare him to two-way bigs like Hakeem, Duncan or even Shaq, or two-way wings like Jordan, LeBron. Hell, I guess you could even use defense as an argument for Bird, in a debate against Magic.

I just see a way more convincing case for Olajuwon than Johnson.

BTW - please someone correct Olajuwon's name in the title, thanks.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olujaw 

Post#410 » by rico381 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:05 pm

A lot has already been said about these players, and I lack the first-hand knowledge to add the depth that some of the other posters have provided earlier in the thread. Big thanks to all of those who have made their case for a player or who have told the story of a season; I'm learning a lot with every thread here.

A few thoughts:
-If we paint with sufficiently broad strokes, this feels like an obvious choice. If you tell me I'm comparing a two-way big with great longevity to an offense-only guard who didn't have a very long career, I'd be leaning pretty strongly towards the first guy right there, just by what I value and what I've seen tends to be over- and under-valued by other people. In this case, I'm not so sure, though.

-I'm not as convinced of Hakeem's offensive value as others seem to be. From highlights and the limited film I've seen, he looks like he's got a bit of Kobe in his game, but that's not entirely a good thing. There's a lot of spin moves, fadeaways, and tough contested shots through multiple defenders; it looks incredible, but it's not as purely effective or efficient as a more powerful game that worked its way to the line, or a great passer who found his team the open shot every time. As a result, his offensive statistics are a little bit underwhelming; a TS% consistently around the league average, with relatively low assists and high turnovers, is still excellent but puts him below just about every other contender for the top 15. Hakeem's WS numbers are pretty low compared to the other contenders here, but it's not because WS is underrating his defense. He's got arguably the best box-score defensive stats of anyone in history, and his DWS numbers reward him for that. It's his offensive numbers, the numbers you'd trust a bit more out of the box score, where he doesn't hold up nearly as well. His top 3 seasons in OWS have him at 7.9, 6.4, and 5.3. For comparison to approximate peers, D-Rob's best three seasons by that metrics give him 13.3, 11.1, and 10.7, KG's best three seasons are 10.4, 10.1, and 9.8, and Duncan's best three are 10.7, 9.5, and 6.7.

Hakeem never gets a great opportunity to play a role where he's asked to reduce his usage and increase his efficiency as much as some of the other bigs were, but he does see his usage change over the course of his career, and there's little evidence of him getting much added efficiency from lowered usage at any point. This jives with what I'd expect from his offensive style, where it's not like he's getting a steady diet of the easy stuff the same way that someone like Robinson did. That hurts my estimation of his portability a little bit.

One supposed plus of that offensive style is that you're more likely to get the same kind of shots against the best defenses, and therefore Hakeem would see less of a dropoff against top defenses. Acrossthecourt provided some great research on that topic, and I want to applaud him there. He found that Hakeem's numbers dropped by about 1 point of efficiency for each point of opposing defensive efficiency, which sounds like it's just about exactly average. Robinson had a much worse dropoff (and that research does a ton for Hakeem's case over Robinson for me), while Shaq had a lesser one. If we research more and find that stars generally drop off a ton against great defenses while role players barely do, or something similar that makes Hakeem's dropoff look more impressive, I'll change my mind on this, but for now it's looking like that might be an overrated point in his favor.

-Hakeem's game wasn't seen as all that exceptional during most of his career. I might be overrating this point (people could say similar things about KG's low finishes in MVP voting, but I know that wouldn't paint a complete picture of his game), but for most of his career, I get the sense that Hakeem was perceived as being below not only Jordan and Magic, but also guys like Barkley, Robinson, Malone, and Ewing. This isn't just accolade-based, either. Hakeem doesn't have much of a stat-based case pre-95, and even the RPOY project votes with the benefit of hindsight don't help him out much.

What this means is that I can't get over the feeling that if it wasn't for one or two playoff runs, Hakeem wouldn't even be in consideration for this spot. I can't really say the same about Magic or Bird (or even a few guys not yet in consideration); even without their most transcendent playoff runs, they still were seen as truly legendary players for many years, and would have quite the portfolio to point to. I don't like the idea of having so much weight swing on just a few games; I have a hard enough time putting Hakeem over D-Rob when Robinson was better for 1000 regular season games each and Hakeem's playoff advantage boils down to a few series for each player. I can't put him over Magic, who was great for almost every full season and playoff run he had.

My runoff vote is for Magic Johnson.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olujaw 

Post#411 » by penbeast0 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:55 pm

RSCD3_ wrote:
So do I edit my original post and put a run off vote ? Does it need to come with explanation ?


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Make a new post after the runoff start. You do need explanation. It isn't enough to make a long thread about how Bird is the best player then just later, say . . . "Hakeem is better than Magic." If you did all the analysis earlier, quote yourself . . . a lot of posters here do that frequently.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olajuw 

Post#412 » by ardee » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:27 pm

Question:

Why do advanced stats not like Hakeem so much (PER/WS/etc). It's not like he didn't have the raw numbers, and don't these stats LOVE high block and steal numbers?

Is it because of his (relatively) lower shooting efficiency as a big?

Because his raw numbers are better than Duncan's across the board.. and yet you see WS/PER treating Duncan much better, even though I doubt pace made a difference.

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olajuw 

Post#413 » by shutupandjam » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:53 pm

A few things:

A lot of votes are being made with this logic:

1.Hakeem has elite defense
2.Magic has elite offense
3.Hakeem's offense is better than Magic's defense
4.Therefore, Hakeem is better

But this presupposes that a GOAT level defensive player has the same impact as a GOAT level offensive player. How sure are we about this? Doesn't it seem reasonable that a player can have more impact on the offensive end because he controls the ball?

---

I feel like not enough has been made of the way Hakeem was able to elevate his game in the playoffs (I think this is what separates him from these guys and guys like Robinson and Garnett as well). In the previous version of my box score metric (which didn't adjust for sos in the playoffs), Hakeem had the highest jump in production from regular season to post season of everyone who played at least 3,000 playoff minutes. The same effect is seen in PER and WS/48:

Hakeem: RS PER: 23.6. Playoff PER: 25.7, RS WS/48: 0.177 Playoff WS/48: 0.189
Magic: RS PER: 24.1 Playoff PER: 23.0, RS WS/48: 0.225 Playoff WS/48 0.208

---

This is slightly off topic given the runoff, but it's still relevant if applied to any comparison...a lot of people have been comparing Bird and Magic like this: Bird has X seasons where he was better and Magic has X-Y, so Bird was better. Who had more seasons that are "better" is irrelevant. What matters is how much better they were.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olajuw 

Post#414 » by shutupandjam » Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:07 pm

ardee wrote:Question:

Why do advanced stats not like Hakeem so much (PER/WS/etc). It's not like he didn't have the raw numbers, and don't these stats LOVE high block and steal numbers?

Is it because of his (relatively) lower shooting efficiency as a big?

Because his raw numbers are better than Duncan's across the board.. and yet you see WS/PER treating Duncan much better, even though I doubt pace made a difference.


WS/48 has a huge team adjustment so that boosts Duncan relative to Hakeem big time. But Duncan had generally better assist and rebound rates (Duncan has the top 8 assist rates over their careers), he got to the line a lot more than Hakeem (the top 9 seasons here), and the scoring gap isn't big.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olajuw 

Post#415 » by ardee » Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:04 pm

One thing I have to say is that Hakeem improved drastically as a man defender over his career.

No way mid-90s Hakeem allows a Kareem a few years from retirement to drop multiple 40 point games on him in the regular season and then average 27 ppg on him in the Playoffs.

I think this is where fplii's posts come in, the experience of playing great centers one on one summer in and summer out probably did him good.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olajuw 

Post#416 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:10 pm

ardee wrote:One thing I have to say is that Hakeem improved drastically as a man defender over his career.

No way mid-90s Hakeem allows a Kareem a few years from retirement to drop multiple 40 point games on him in the regular season and then average 27 ppg on him in the Playoffs.

I think this is where fplii's posts come in, the experience of playing great centers one on one summer in and summer out probably did him good.

Just two notes:

1) The quotes from summers 81-83 (facing Moses) were during Hakeem's college years.
2) The other quote (summer 92) seemed to be mostly about Hakeem working on and developing offensive moves (though it seems he put on muscle as well).

I'm out right now, but there's a quote earlier in the book about Hakeem putting on some 60 pounds early in his college career, to bring him from 180->240 (his playing weight was 250 I believe, not sure if it changed summer 92, and if so, by how much).

It is possible that he improved as a man defender (I only watched live starting in 92-93 and everything before them that I've seen is after the fact, and only comes from what's available), but from the quotes if posted a page or so ago (facing Kareem in general) and the one on the top of this page I think (86 playoffs), Kareem, even in his older days, still had an unguardable shot, and it was the tandem of Sampson and Olajuwon that faced him.

In general though, a constant theme in the book is that Hakeem was predominantly a beast because of his help defense (weak-side blocks, rim protection, mobility and his being an "in-between" player, etc.). I know he did have some great one-on-one defensive series (particularly in 94 and 95), but I think, like Russell and KG, the bulk of his defensive impact game from playing help/team D (and protecting the paint, similar to Russ).

Again, could be wrong (and if so, someone can feel free to correct me :) ), just my understanding from reading watching.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olajuw 

Post#417 » by acrossthecourt » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:26 pm

shutupandjam wrote:A few things:

A lot of votes are being made with this logic:

1.Hakeem has elite defense
2.Magic has elite offense
3.Hakeem's offense is better than Magic's defense
4.Therefore, Hakeem is better

But this presupposes that a GOAT level defensive player has the same impact as a GOAT level offensive player. How sure are we about this? Doesn't it seem reasonable that a player can have more impact on the offensive end because he controls the ball?

---

I feel like not enough has been made of the way Hakeem was able to elevate his game in the playoffs (I think this is what separates him from these guys and guys like Robinson and Garnett as well). In the previous version of my box score metric (which didn't adjust for sos in the playoffs), Hakeem had the highest jump in production from regular season to post season of everyone who played at least 3,000 playoff minutes. The same effect is seen in PER and WS/48:

Hakeem: RS PER: 23.6. Playoff PER: 25.7, RS WS/48: 0.177 Playoff WS/48: 0.189
Magic: RS PER: 24.1 Playoff PER: 23.0, RS WS/48: 0.225 Playoff WS/48 0.208

---

This is slightly off topic given the runoff, but it's still relevant if applied to any comparison...a lot of people have been comparing Bird and Magic like this: Bird has X seasons where he was better and Magic has X-Y, so Bird was better. Who had more seasons that are "better" is irrelevant. What matters is how much better they were.

Yeah it's something I've noticed too:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pe2IqiGmTyQ/T ... ff+PER.PNG

(I need to update that.)

I'm messing around with his gamelogs, and it appears his offensive rating jumps by like five points (!!) in the playoffs adjusting for the competition. It's strange because the p-value is like 10^-5.

Robinson's declines by four points, but it's not reliable/significant.

I don't like the top 3, better offense than defense argument either. Especially because Magic is often cited as the greatest offensive player ever and people like to mention the best offensive players are more valuable than the best defensive players (you can choose who you give the ball to on offense, and can't choose who has the ball on defense.)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olajuw 

Post#418 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:35 pm

shutupandjam wrote:A few things:

A lot of votes are being made with this logic:

1.Hakeem has elite defense
2.Magic has elite offense
3.Hakeem's offense is better than Magic's defense
4.Therefore, Hakeem is better

But this presupposes that a GOAT level defensive player has the same impact as a GOAT level offensive player. How sure are we about this? Doesn't it seem reasonable that a player can have more impact on the offensive end because he controls the ball?

Good points, I brought this up earlier in the project. A great offensive player is able to impact more possessions per game than a great defensive player, specifically for the reason you named, ball control.

In a comparison between Melo & Big Ben, I would tend to choose Melo as having the bigger impact. Nash vs Bowen, I'm taking Nash. Moses or Deke, I see Moses as having the bigger impact.

Oblviously, Hakeem is no Deke on offense, yet Magic is arguably the GOAT on offense. When i look at their careers, I see Magic with the bigger impact. Hakeem's teams never impressed with their SRS, even his title teams, or the Hakeem/Clyde/Barkley one had mediocre SRS. That's somewhat telling.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olujaw 

Post#419 » by magicmerl » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:50 pm

rico381 wrote:-Hakeem's game wasn't seen as all that exceptional during most of his career. I might be overrating this point (people could say similar things about KG's low finishes in MVP voting, but I know that wouldn't paint a complete picture of his game), but for most of his career, I get the sense that Hakeem was perceived as being below not only Jordan and Magic, but also guys like Barkley, Robinson, Malone, and Ewing. This isn't just accolade-based, either. Hakeem doesn't have much of a stat-based case pre-95, and even the RPOY project votes with the benefit of hindsight don't help him out much.

Great quote, thanks for making it. I just wanted to nitpick this bit.

I don't think that Hakeem was perceived as being worse than Ewing, although I readily admit that Ewing had far more media exposure (ala Melo currently). Speaking personally I had Robinson/Ewing/Hakeem all on about the same level, with a slight edge to Robinson until '94, then a clear order of Hakeem / Robinson / Ewing. I had Malone over all of them ('greatest power forward ever'), and Barkley at the bottom ('defense wins championships')

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Good points, I brought this up earlier in the project. A great offensive player is able to impact more possessions per game than a great defensive player, specifically for the reason you named, ball control.

In a comparison between Melo & Big Ben, I would tend to choose Melo as having the bigger impact. Nash vs Bowen, I'm taking Nash. Moses or Deke, I see Moses as having the bigger impact.

Oblviously, Hakeem is no Deke on offense, yet Magic is arguably the GOAT on offense. When i look at their careers, I see Magic with the bigger impact. Hakeem's teams never impressed with their SRS, even his title teams, or the Hakeem/Clyde/Barkley one had mediocre SRS. That's somewhat telling.

I wouldn't say that I agree with this conclusion. It's true that an offensive player has more opportunities to impact the game than a defensive player, but also that their impact relative to an average player is far more marginal.

So for example, Hakeem in 1994 had a TS% of .565% if suddenly his offensive presence vanishes (let's say he turns into Matt Bullard on offense), there's still a whole bunch of players not named Vernon Maxwell who can shoot the ball at a similar efficiency, even if Otis Thorpe's TS% also craters (assuming part of the reason he scored so well was because of the increased defensive attention that Hakeem drew).

Defense however is another matter. If Hakeem can maintain his offensive prowess, but suddenly turns into Matt Bullard again, but this time on defense, suddenly that creates a gaping hole in Houstons's defensive schemes. Opposing teams don't just have the opposing big man shooting a few percentage points higher. Suddenly the whole team is shooting layups, it's like every player on the opposing team turns into LeBron on offense.

So I do think it's fair to turn a suspicious eye to the 'two way big' moniker when the offensive efficiency isn't there to back it up.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #8 -- Magic Johnson v. Hakeem Olajuw 

Post#420 » by rich316 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:56 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
shutupandjam wrote:A few things:

A lot of votes are being made with this logic:

1.Hakeem has elite defense
2.Magic has elite offense
3.Hakeem's offense is better than Magic's defense
4.Therefore, Hakeem is better

But this presupposes that a GOAT level defensive player has the same impact as a GOAT level offensive player. How sure are we about this? Doesn't it seem reasonable that a player can have more impact on the offensive end because he controls the ball?

Good points, I brought this up earlier in the project. A great offensive player is able to impact more possessions per game than a great defensive player, specifically for the reason you named, ball control.

In a comparison between Melo & Big Ben, I would tend to choose Melo as having the bigger impact. Nash vs Bowen, I'm taking Nash. Moses or Deke, I see Moses as having the bigger impact.

Oblviously, Hakeem is no Deke on offense, yet Magic is arguably the GOAT on offense. When i look at their careers, I see Magic with the bigger impact. Hakeem's teams never impressed with their SRS, even his title teams, or the Hakeem/Clyde/Barkley one had mediocre SRS. That's somewhat telling.


This is a million-dollar question of player rankings, but how do you measure the relative value of an offensive superstar's ball control against the a defensive superstar's effect on every opponent possession? Even a player like Magic, who may have initiated a greater portion of his team's offense while on the floor than any other player, was still not involved in every single offensive possession. Plenty of Lakers possessions started and ended with Kareem in the post. Doesn't the presence of a dominant defensive big man affect literally every opposing offensive possession by his deterring effect in the paint, and by gravely endangering every shot taken in the most valuable piece of court real-estate? I think it's arguable that his global effect is actually greater than an offensive star of identical magnitude. Magic is arguably the GOAT on offense, true, although MJ, Lebron, Bird, Shaq, and Kareem all have places in that conversation. Hakeem is also in the non-Russell GOAT conversation on defense, and you could make an argument that he's not in a different tier than Russell. The fact remains, his offense is a lot better than Magic's defense. It's hard for me to look past that.

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