Dr J v.s Kobe

Post #41 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:27 pm

13 is anything but an insult to Kobe, a guy who was never once the best player in the league, and who had a boatload of negatives which his supporters seem to ignore when they are brought up.

"Kobe was never the best player in the league in any year"

Blasphemous.

Not sure which is the more obnoxious quote. Overall I have to say the ballboy is the more obnoxious for just ignoring Erving's ABA years but both of you are making rude posts that are likely to derail good debate.

ShaqAttack3234 · Post #42 » by **ShaqAttack3234** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:32 pm

I'd definitely go with Kobe. Far more dynamic half court player as both a scorer and playmaker even though Doc had that great first step. The one thing I have to do is go back and look at Doc's help defense more. I'm a bit unsure about how good he was defensively, though I know I never saw Doc show the type of man defense Kobe did in any of the Dr. J games I've seen.

MCDubbin · Post #43 » by **MCDubbin** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:08 pm

ardee wrote:
SactoKingsFan wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:i gotta figure out why Real Gm hates RealGM. As new member i never seen so much un reasonable hate for one star.

RealGM doesn't hate Kobe. He's winning this poll and will probably get voted in at 12 or 13 in the top 100 project.

13 is really a bit of an insult to Kobe.

No it's not

He's a borderline top 15 player

How is 13 an insult?

Ballerhogger · Post #44 » by **Ballerhogger** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:16 pm

MCDubbin wrote:
ardee wrote:
SactoKingsFan wrote:
RealGM doesn't hate Kobe. He's winning this poll and will probably get voted in at 12 or 13 in the top 100 project.

13 is really a bit of an insult to Kobe.

No it's not

He's a borderline top 15 player

How is 13 an insult?

So he's barely a top 15 player?
so who would have 10-14 then?
he's top ten or 11 for me

Colbinii · Post #45 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:20 pm

ardee wrote:
SactoKingsFan wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:i gotta figure out why Real Gm hates RealGM. As new member i never seen so much un reasonable hate for one star.

RealGM doesn't hate Kobe. He's winning this poll and will probably get voted in at 12 or 13 in the top 100 project.

13 is really a bit of an insult to Kobe.

Ehh, not really. Kobe was regarded very highly until the inclusion of advanced stats, but once they came out, a lot of people who heavily weigh advanced stats pegged him down a few slots.

I wouldn't say 13 is an insult as their are probably 10-15 players that are in a similar tier as Kobe, and depending on how you rank Oscar/West, he could very easily be closer to 20 than 10.

Colbinii · Post #46 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:22 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:So he's barely a top 15 player?
so who would have 10-14 then?
he's top ten or 11 for me

I have him around 11-12, but I am thinking of moving him down. You could make a case for all of these players over Kobe.

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Shaq
LeBron
Duncan
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
KG
Erving
Dirk
West
Oscar

Ballerhogger · Post #47 » by **Ballerhogger** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:28 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:So he's barely a top 15 player?
so who would have 10-14 then?
he's top ten or 11 for me

I have him around 11-12, but I am thinking of moving him down. You could make a case for all of these players over Kobe.

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Shaq
LeBron
Duncan
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
KG
Erving
Dirk
West
Oscar

Dirk? What? Give me a break.
KG? Seriously Overall?
Erving? eh thats really really debatable but i don't think Erving GOAT better than Kobe
Jerry West no way. He was great player but his career was not as great as Kobe.
Hakeem Give or take here. I say overall its close between if your not counting Kobe for 3 rings. Which everyone seems to do.
Oscar... Really? No way did he have the career of Kobe. Give me a break.

Colbinii · Post #48 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:55 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:Dirk? What? Give me a break.
KG? Seriously Overall?
Erving? eh thats really really debatable but i don't think Erving GOAT better than Kobe
Jerry West no way. He was great player but his career was not as great as Kobe.
Hakeem Give or take here. I say overall its close between if your not counting Kobe for 3 rings. Which everyone seems to do.
Oscar... Really? No way did he have the career of Kobe. Give me a break.

Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar.

Please post something using some sort of basketball knowledge when posting instead of "Give me a break".

Also, let's bring this back on topic, and since you say Erving is really really debatable, it must mean you think it is close.

Ballerhogger · Post #49 » by **Ballerhogger** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:00 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:Dirk? What? Give me a break.
KG? Seriously Overall?
Erving? eh thats really really debatable but i don't think Erving GOAT better than Kobe
Jerry West no way. He was great player but his career was not as great as Kobe.
Hakeem Give or take here. I say overall its close between if your not counting Kobe for 3 rings. Which everyone seems to do.
Oscar... Really? No way did he have the career of Kobe. Give me a break.

Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar.

Please post something using some sort of basketball knowledge when posting instead of "Give me a break".

Also, let's bring this back on topic, and since you say Erving is really really debatable, it must mean you think it is close.

First off,you listed players that you think are better than Kobe...
What has done Dirk another than his on magical run in 2011? He's great shooter but he admits he's not a better scorer than kobe.Which is what Dirk is mainly known for. He sure isn't the defender that Kobe is.
Irving is very debatable if were counting his ABA years. If were not, then its not really debatable.

Senior · Post #50 » by **Senior** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:08 pm

ShaqAttack3234 wrote:I'd definitely go with Kobe. Far more dynamic half court player as both a scorer and playmaker even though Doc had that great first step. The one thing I have to do is go back and look at Doc's help defense more. I'm a bit unsure about how good he was defensively, though I know I never saw Doc show the type of man defense Kobe did in any of the Dr. J games I've seen.

Yeah, Doc's help D is really interesting to me. From what I've seen of 80-83 Sixers, he's pretty solid since he has athleticism and length, he doesn't need to carry an enormous offensive load, and he has people like Bobby Jones and Mo Cheeks helping him on the perimeter.

I'd like to see how good he was defensively on the 77-79 Sixers when he's stuck with chuckers such as McGinnis (who has the added bonus of being the turnover king) and World B Free or bad defenders like Doug Collins.

1979 is the turning point since Jones and Cheeks joined and they got rid of Free and McGinnis.

HeartBreakKid · Post #51 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:45 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:Dirk? What? Give me a break.
KG? Seriously Overall?
Erving? eh thats really really debatable but i don't think Erving GOAT better than Kobe
Jerry West no way. He was great player but his career was not as great as Kobe.
Hakeem Give or take here. I say overall its close between if your not counting Kobe for 3 rings. Which everyone seems to do.
Oscar... Really? No way did he have the career of Kobe. Give me a break.

Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar.

Please post something using some sort of basketball knowledge when posting instead of "Give me a break".

Also, let's bring this back on topic, and since you say Erving is really really debatable, it must mean you think it is close.

First off,you listed players that you think are better than Kobe...
What has done Dirk another than his on magical run in 2011? He's great shooter but he admits he's not a better scorer than kobe.Which is what Dirk is mainly known for. He sure isn't the defender that Kobe is.
Irving is very debatable if were counting his ABA years. If were not, then its not really debatable.

It's only because you're ring counting...not everyone ring counts. (most apparent by your comment on Hakeem)

I personally never get the ring count argument for Kobe Bryant. How come no one puts John Havilcek above him?

Johnlac1 · Post #52 » by **Johnlac1** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:53 pm

Senior wrote:
ShaqAttack3234 wrote:I'd definitely go with Kobe. Far more dynamic half court player as both a scorer and playmaker even though Doc had that great first step. The one thing I have to do is go back and look at Doc's help defense more. I'm a bit unsure about how good he was defensively, though I know I never saw Doc show the type of man defense Kobe did in any of the Dr. J games I've seen.

Yeah, Doc's help D is really interesting to me. From what I've seen of 80-83 Sixers, he's pretty solid since he has athleticism and length, he doesn't need to carry an enormous offensive load, and he has people like Bobby Jones and Mo Cheeks helping him on the perimeter.

I'd like to see how good he was defensively on the 77-79 Sixers when he's stuck with chuckers such as McGinnis (who has the added bonus of being the turnover king) and World B Free or bad defenders like Doug Collins.

1979 is the turning point since Jones and Cheeks joined and they got rid of Free and McGinnis.

If the Sixers would have had a decent pg in the late seventies instead of Henry Bibby, who might have been the worst pg in the league, they would have won a few more titles. Bibby was so bad in the '77 finals, by the end of the series, the Sixers actually had Caldwell Jones, a center, bring the ball up the floor. Bibby was a decent small shooting guard, but severely inept as a pg. Cheeks, obviously superior to Bibby, broke in the '78-79 season, but it took him a few years to mature.

Ballerhogger · Post #53 » by **Ballerhogger** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:55 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar.

Please post something using some sort of basketball knowledge when posting instead of "Give me a break".

Also, let's bring this back on topic, and since you say Erving is really really debatable, it must mean you think it is close.

First off,you listed players that you think are better than Kobe...
What has done Dirk another than his on magical run in 2011? He's great shooter but he admits he's not a better scorer than kobe.Which is what Dirk is mainly known for. He sure isn't the defender that Kobe is.
Irving is very debatable if were counting his ABA years. If were not, then its not really debatable.

It's only because you're ring counting...not everyone ring counts. (most apparent by your comment on Hakeem)

I personally never get the ring count argument for Kobe Bryant. How come no one puts John Havilcek above him?

Ring counting is factor in GOAT lists and have always been a factor in any sport. I also commented how dirk has admitted Kobe was better scorer .

MistyMountain20 · Post #54 » by **MistyMountain20** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:05 pm

I usually refrain from "all-time rankings", but I find it hysterical that people can come to conclusion that the one handed dribbler Jerry West is better than Kobe. Hysterical.

ardee · Post #55 » by **ardee** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:36 pm

The lowest you can rank Kobe without having bias creep into your assessment is 11. The only guys who can be ranked over him without having arguments that are based on just a whole number of arbitrary things that aren't really things with legs to stand on are:

Russell
Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
LeBron
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq

These 10 guys and Kobe form a tier separate from the other players in history.

nonjokegetter · Post #56 » by **nonjokegetter** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:32 pm

ardee wrote:The lowest you can rank Kobe without having bias creep into your assessment is 11. The only guys who can be ranked over him without having arguments that are based on just a whole number of arbitrary things that aren't really things with legs to stand on are:

Russell
Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
LeBron
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq

These 10 guys and Kobe form a tier separate from the other players in history.

Now, see, I agree with the guys you listed being on a separate level. Kobe is more among the top end of this tier:

West
KG
Oscar
Moses
Karl
Erving

Some people put Dirk in there, I dunno if I'm exactly prepared to do that, but maybe. Right now I'd put Dirk at the top of the Barkley/Ewing/Baylor/Petit/Havilcek/DRob/etc tier but maybe.

therealbig3 · Post #57 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:33 pm

I've got Kobe 15th...could be 14th, based on the more and more I look into Dr. J.

I've got Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell, Wilt, LeBron, Duncan, Garnett, Magic, Bird, Dirk, and K. Malone over him.

As for the thread...well, that's the debate on my list. Dr. J has always struck me as a pretty devastating help defender, and I value that more than great man to man defense. Kobe has a more varied skillset, and he has much better range on his jumper than Dr. J...but Dr. J was just so freakishly quick and explosive and got to the rim at will...Dr. J was a lot like Wade during his prime tbh, and I always thought that Wade and Kobe were pretty equal prime vs prime. I give Kobe the edge, because of his longevity compared to Wade...but Dr. J has the longevity that Wade didn't, so it makes the debate with regards to Kobe very interesting.

HeartBreakKid · Post #58 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:13 pm

I look at Dr.J as a bigger Wade as well, when it comes to slashing and help defense - obviously doesn't have the handles deal that Wade gives you.

Warspite · Post #59 » by **Warspite** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:17 pm

CountTheirRings wrote:"Kobe was never the best player in the league in any year"

Blasphemous.

On note of the comparison:

Rings: Kobe (5) vs. Dr. J (3)
MVPs: Kobe (1) vs. Dr. J (4)
Finals MVP: Kobe (2) vs. Dr. J (2)
All-Defensive First Team: Kobe (9) vs. Dr. J (0)
Scoring Leader: Kobe (2) vs. Dr. J (3)

And yes, I am aware that Dr. J only played for 11 years. Still doesn't account for the huge discrepancy. And don't reduce this side-by-side to a superficial analysis, because it's really enough substance from which to make a definitive call. By the way, Kobe's shot, footwork, court vision, competitive edge, ball-handling are all more developed and preferential to Dr. J's. And if you have some sort of dunking fetish, Kobe used to get UP.

Fixed.

Wow not going to count the ABA career? Pretend like it never happened? is that what you did when the Lakers lost to the ABA team known as the Spurs?

Black Feet · Post #60 » by **Black Feet** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:56 pm

Definitely Kobe, accomplished much more had a better peak and longer career. Can't see a good argument for Dr. J.

Dr J or Kobe?