Most Skilled Basketball Player of All Time?

[CountTheirRings]

Bear with me, but I want to see what direction this plays in.

As much as you can without compromising realism, downplay the advantages of genetically-favorable physique, disregard "greatness", don't "count their rings", ignore personalities, forgive mental shortcomings, grade easy on the teammate scale, and look past physical ailments:

Who in your opinion is the most individually skilled basketball player of all time?

I tend to agree with Durant (bear with me part 2, I am aware that this quote is ancient and has potentially already been discussed):

"His skill is second to none. Him and [Michael Jordan] are neck and neck as far as skill. You can put in athleticism and be the best passer and strongest and quickest. But it’s about skill. I think that’s how his game is played. That’s why Kobe is the top two best ever in just having skill, footwork, shooting the three, shooting the pull up, posting up, dunking on guys and ball handling. It’s flat out skill. Him and Jordan are 1 and 1A. They’re neck and neck as far as the skills are concerned.”

[ronnymac2]

Steve Nash.

[Dipper 13]

Spoiler:

The Big O: my life, my times, my game - Oscar Robertson

[Quotatious]

Kobe can't even spin a ball on his finger. Oscar can do it for hours, therefore Oscar > Kobe.

Seriously though, Larry Bird would be my #1, then probably Nash and Stockton or CP3 (my top 2 or 3 being white is a pure coincidence, and I've added Paul as the third because I didn't want to be accused of racism by anyone ). CP3 is very athletic, but I think his game is based in large part on his intelligence and skills.
MJ, Oscar, Kobe, Kareem, KG, Mailman and Duncan would be my other choices for the top 10 (when you add Bird, Nash, Stockton and CP3 it makes it 11, and I'd really have to think more about it to say who would be the last in that group). Bill Walton belongs, too.

Bird is IMO the best because other than being 6'9'', he really didn't seem to be that physically gifted - I think basically all of the other players with his athletic gifts would just be role players, or fringe all-stars at best, but Bird's mastery of the fundamentals, intelligence/spatial awareness sets him apart, which was possible mostly because of his work ethic and what could be called "a natural feel for the game" (like Bird himself admits, he didn't have the quickness or jumping ability, he just "thought the game out").

I think a good way to determine who's the most "skilled" would be making separate lists for many different aspects of the game (shooting, passing, rebounding, ballhandling, post scoring, post passing, post defense etc.) and seeing who would on average appear on the most lists. For example, Bird would likely be top 5 in shooting, passing, rebounding, post scoring and post passing (at least for his position, as far as passing and rebounding, though I actually think that his passing would rival some All-Star point guards), Nash would be top 5 in shooting and passing, very high in ballhandling as well. That's a nice start...

[magicmerl]

So is Pete Maravich in this conversation?

[E-Balla]

Kobe or Bird. Depends on if Bird's natural IQ and vision counts as skill (I don't think it does so I'm leaning Kobe). Kobe has great handles, a great midrange game in all ways, a spectacular post game, and DEFENSIVELY can play picture perfect (like a coach would teach) defense when he wanted to.

[Dr Pepper]

Lots of great picks but in my opinion for bigs it's a tie between Pau Gasol and Rasheed Wallace. They had the skills of guards while being able to post-up and even shoot from 3 every now and then.

Larry Bird is outstanding but how do you guys feel about Paul Pierce? He has a pretty complete game and of course is also a future Celtic HOFer

[Joao Saraiva]

It depends on how you define skilled but I'll say CP3.

His handling is at a crazy level, his shooting form is really good and he can make a ton of different passes without losing balance.

[john248]

I'm going with Jordan here. Great shooter in the mid-range though just ok from 3pt, ball handler, passer, post, finishing, knowing how to use his body/positioning, solid rebounder for his position, off-ball, footwork, use both hands, court vision, timing, defensive stance, defending passing lanes, etc. Top that with his athleticism, fundamentals both offensively & defensively, and extreme effort...pretty deadly.

People are getting too caught up with PGs.

[Quotatious]

So is Pete Maravich in this conversation?

Not really, because even though I believe that he was extremely well-schooled in fundamentals - brilliant shooter, passer and ballhandler, he consistently underperformed those skills in NBA games, in large part because he valued style more than substance (and he came to regret that after he finished his career, saying that "most of my career was negative" and "I got on by talent. That was my fatal mistake"), I don't think we can include him - it'd be too speculative. He was pretty much just one of many all-stars in NBA history, seeing the results - his mediocre efficiency shouldn't earn him the nod.

That being said, the amount of respect that a lot of all-time greats have for him, is pretty amazing:

“We’re all doing things he did first.”–Steve Nash

“Pistol Pete is a legend to all who understand the history of basketball.”–Jason Kidd

“Pete was ‘The Man.’ I’d just sit there and shake my head and say to myself: ‘How’d he do that?’”–Magic Johnson

“Oh my. He did things with the basketball that players - still today - can’t do. If Maravich was playing today, he’d be a god.” — Isiah Thomas

“(Oscar) Robertson was the best guard I ever played against. Jerry West was the best I ever played with. And Pete is the best I’ve ever seen.”–Elgin Baylor

“I’ve got a lot of Pistol Pete in my game.”–Steve Nash

“Like a master chess player, Pete Maravich saw things that nobody else did.”–Bill Walton

“He was the greatest ball handler I’ve ever seen in my life. He could do things with the basketball that were unbelievable.”–Rick Barry

“A lot of guys break the laws of gravity. Pete breaks the laws of physics.”–Red Auerbach

“I learned all my tricks from Pete Maravich.”–Kobe Bryant

“The stuff that Pistol did with the ball was the breaking ground for what we can do today.”–Jason Kidd

“You talk of Jerry West or Oscar Robertson or any of those great ones who scored and passed so well. Maravich is better. He’s a show.”–Lou Carnesecca

“The best showman of all time? I’d probably have to say Pistol Pete.”–Isiah Thomas

“He was one of the truly great players that could fill an arena. He was an excellent player. He could dribble with both hands, shoot with both hands, and see the whole court. I enjoyed playing with Pete. His biggest influence to my mind was his ability to pass. When he stepped on the court, it was like a warning sign: ‘Watch out. I know how to play this game.’”–Larry Bird

“Through following basketball and enjoying his flair for the game, I feel as though I knew him. He was a great scorer and a great passer at the same time. The passes he made were unbelievable. He was so ahead of his time.”–Magic Johnson

“Pistol was a big influence on me. I’ve often tried his moves on the basketball court. What he did on the court are things that players today still can’t do.”–Isiah Thomas

“Today’s game is about spacing, drawing double teams, and shooting off the pass. No one in the history of the game was better at that than Pete. He could do more things with the ball than anyone who ever played, and do them all well.”–Alvin Gentry


And here's an excerpt of Dr. J's autobiography:

"The first time I see Pete in the gym after practice, he's shooting left-hand shots from a seated position. I've never seen anyone do that before.

I go down to the other basket and do my leaping drills, touching the rim a hundred times with each hand, then both hands, then hanging on the rim and then starting again. Finally, I go over and ask if he wants to play a little game.

"Horse?" He asks.

I shake my head. "One-on-one."

He nods. Just spending time with Pete is funny, because he'll do these things with a basketball I've never seen before when he's just standing around, like spinning it frontwards, then backwards, just changing the direction of the spin with one flick, and it never leaves the tip of his finger.

"We'll play for dinner." Pete says.

Playing one-on-one with Pete is an experience. He's got the kind of shooting range that I've never seen before. He can shoot it consistently out to 35 feet, but if I'm going to go out there and defend that, then he'll cross-me up on the dribble and get a lay-up or dunk. Pete has some great ups, and while he's not known for getting to the rim, he throws some nice dunks down in our games, his red hair flapping in the hot Georgia air. One of the things that makes Pete so great is his hang time, and no one talks about that. He can leave the floor and sort of stay up there long enough to make a good pass out of the play, or fake one way and then pass another. That's something coaches have been discouraging me from doing my whole life. I can remember only one exception: During my rookie season in the ABA we played the Kentucky Colonels, and Adolph Rupp, the legendary coach who was working for the team as a special consultant, comes into our locker room after the game and says to me, "Young man, I've coached all my career and taught guys never to leave their feet and make decisions after they're airborne. I watched you do it tonight, and I'm changing my philosophy."

Larry Bird is outstanding but how do you guys feel about Paul Pierce? He has a pretty complete game and of course is also a future Celtic HOFer

Pierce is certainly one of the most skilled players of the post Jordan era, especially in terms of his scoring arsenal and amazing footwork, but even as a big fan of him, he's clearly more athletic and less skilled than Bird.

[kingkirk]

Determining skill is so hard. It's even more subjective than coming up with your top 10-15 players of all time simply due to every single person having differencing opinions on what skill is, and what skill is more favourable than others.

One could realistically make the case for Chris Paul, another could do so for Steve Nash, Dirk, Bird etc.

Not even sure where i'd start on this one but i suppose the PG position is as good as any place to start

[mooncheese]

larry bird and it's not close for me.

unlike some of today's players, he would never use half the shot clock to set up his assist.

i can't even really compare larry and magic to today's players because they played a different game altogether.. the paint that they operated in was always packed with defenders, so they were threading needles and they frequently did so super-quick, often off a touch pass.

you can't compare that with what we see today.

[hisalness56]

Agree with a lot that have been mentioned so far, those quotes about Pistol were so cool to read. Another guy who deserves a mention though is Manu

[penbeast0]

A skill set can be so varied, it would b better to make a list of particular skills and look for most skilled athletes in those areas. Just looking at PGs, there are a lot of specific skills that are key:

Handles
Passing
Drive and dish
Finishing at the hoop
Getting separation on a jump shot
3 point shooting
Drawing fouls
Defensive footwork
Fighting through picks
Playing the passing lanes
etc.

[Ballerhogger]

I will say Bill Russell . The man made up blocking and etc.

[Exodus]

I'm going to say Kobe Bryant. His footwork is impeccable. His game has evolved over time. You can probably say Michael Jordan also, but just with all sports, they do evolve over time. Kobe is safe to say maximized the talent he was blessed with. Larry Bird is another one that should be mentioned with his skill he brought to the game without elite athleticism.

1. Kobe
2. Bird
3. MJ
4. Hakeem

[trex_8063]

Larry Bird.

[lorenzosorrenti]

In terms of 'raw talent' you have to go with players like Jamal Crawford, Tim Hardaway, Harold Miner, Damon Stoudamire, Jason Williams or even Michael Beasley (If he had somewhat of a decent attitude) You're all probably thinking "what the ****" with players like Crawford or Beasley, but they're sportsman who would of been good at any sport they would've played, they just have that natural talent, but sometimes that doesn't get you anywhere, you gotta have the mindset and the work ethic.

In terms of straight out talent, you would have to go with some of the greats such as Hakeem, Magic Johnson, Bird, MJ, Oscar Robertson then with players like Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Westbrook, Wade, Kobe etc.

[CountTheirRings]

I love these forums already. Dope answers all around.

I think everyone's subjective point of view on what compromises "skill" is what makes a debate over this unique. Greatness has parameters that can cloud individual excellence. Rings, system-compatibility, competitiveness, coaching staff, teammates, etc. For that reason, I think it's important to distinguish the two.

To expound on my answer, I think Kobe has more finesse than anyone I can put my finger on. MJ had huge hands, which according to Phil, facilitated much of his mastery of the basketball. He was also considerably stronger than Kobe, which was especially helpful in creating space. LBJ uses his basketball-engineered frame to get to the rim like a freight train whenever he choses. Countless great post players have exploited enormous height advantages to post absurd numbers in big-man stat categories.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying any other players. Kobe's #8 on my Top 10 list, and MJ is my GOAT, but think about the sheer skill Kobe has:

Footwork, remarkable court vision & passing finesse (even though I'd like to see him do it more), spot-up shooting, off-the-dribble jumpers, fadeaway, insane dunking ability (posterized the biggest dudes), defensive tenacity & incredible ball-tracing to crack passing lanes and peel away the ball. His post-up game in his younger, more durable days was also one of the best in the league, and he went toe-to-toe with much bigger defenders on the regular. Not an ultra-accurate 3-point shooter, but he hits them in clutch situations (holds the record for most 3s in a game, if I'm not mistaken).

Overall, he has a skill set that I would be hard pressed to equate to any other individual player. MJ is obviously right there with him. PGs abound, but they don't too much other than orchestrate, drive, & shoot. Highly position-based skills IMO.

[Pg81]

In my opinion, Pistol Pete.