The One And Only Offseason Thread 4

[Christine-In-AZ]

It's next to impossible...or rarely happens that any team has more than a 10 man rotation. I'm guessing & hoping Jeff doesn't try to go over 10.

In a generic, non-garbage time game, I'll guess it'll be something around these numbers-

Dragic-32 Green-24 Goodwin-DNP
Bledsoe-32 Thomas-24 Ennis-DNP/non-active
Tucker- 24 Marcus/Tolliver/Warren- Two of the three split 38 minutes. One is DNP. It'll really depend on opposing team match-ups and how good Warren is out of the gate.
Markief- 30
Plumlee- 24
Len/Randolph- One plays 12 minutes and one sits

That's 10 players and 240 minutes of PT

[Moochthemonkey]

.

Oh well, you seem hell bent on being a sour pill.

I see it as you are either building for championship or you are competing for a championship, you never want to be the team that is happy to be in the middle of the pack.

Sometimes it's best to just build upon what you're already have. While other teams have also gotten better this offseason, what current "mediocre" team has several rotation players that have yet to reach their prime?

What players right now would you trade for draft picks? What would your rotation look like at the start of the season?

I don't see how we are building toward a championship right now, we seem to be building towards an 8th seed and I am sour on that.

If it's any consolation, an 8th seed was the only team in last year's playoffs to give the eventual champions a scare.

I think the draft is our best hope at that, it my opinion and I will hold to it.

1. We still have the Lakers pick
2. With that said it's rare for a player drafted in the top ten to lead a team to a championship with the team that originally drafted them...Bynum being the last, and he was drafted #10 in 2005. Before that, D-Wade, Tim Duncan, Paul Pierce, Nowitzki, the last two who played with the team for 10+ years and restructured their team multiple times. I believe that's it for the 90s, Pippen was probably the next player and he was drafted 26 years ago.

Bottom line, we don't have a franchise player yet, so I see why we need to be so enthralled with simply making the playoffs, let alone making a deep run when we simply don't have the pieces to do so.

It seems like there are only a handful of *true* superstars in the league nowadays...I see Bledsoe and Dragic as being franchise type players, as I'm sure many others do...why don't you?

I think we are structured similarly to the Spurs of the past three years, Duncan is obviously not in his prime any more, but still an all star level player and the team as a whole plays with great chemistry and heart.

[carey]

I don't know what your obsession with Archie is (the 26th pick who was a complete bust in college) and why you think McDonough doesn't want or try to get an all star big man. It's certainly not for a lack of trying. He drafted who he thought was the best center with the 5th pick, and then traded for a 2nd year center and started him. This is exactly what it sounds like you want with Archie.

What are you talking about? He was not a bust. He led the SEC in FTAs as a combo guard and led a talented Kentucky squad in scoring. He was also the 29th pick, not the 26th. I'm not sure what you don't see in him. He's extremely athletic, has all the tools to be a lockdown defender one day, can get to the rim at will, and is a solid 3-ball away from starting in this league as a 2-guard. He's still only 19.

[spanishninja]

.

Oh well, you seem hell bent on being a sour pill.

I see it as you are either building for championship or you are competing for a championship, you never want to be the team that is happy to be in the middle of the pack. I don't see how we are building toward a championship right now, we seem to be building towards an 8th seed and I am sour on that. I want more than anything for the Suns to get a franchise player and build a team around him. I think the draft is our best hope at that, it my opinion and I will hold to it. I don't want to watch us be a perennial lower seed playoff team ever year that simply pins all our hopes on a disgruntled star wanting to choose the Suns.

Bottom line, we don't have a franchise player yet, so I see why we need to be so enthralled with simply making the playoffs, let alone making a deep run when we simply don't have the pieces to do so.

clearly you don't want to stay in 8th place forever, but at the same time you can't go from lottery to championship without being somewhere in between. getting the worst lottery pick every year isn't really going to help you much in the long term other than loading you up with young guys who probably aren't going to ever become stars. but being in 8th place for a few years puts you in the Golden State Warriors/Memphis Grizzlies category where quality FAs suddenly start to realize you're not a joke, and maybe want to actually join your team. When that happens, hopefully we won't be hit as hard by injuries as those two teams have but you get the point.

[bwgood77]

It's next to impossible...or rarely happens that any team has more than a 10 man rotation. I'm guessing & hoping Jeff doesn't try to go over 10.

In a generic, non-garbage time game, I'll guess it'll be something around these numbers-

Dragic-32 Green-24 Goodwin-DNP
Bledsoe-32 Thomas-24 Ennis-DNP/non-active
Tucker- 24 Marcus/Tolliver/Warren- Two of the three split 38 minutes. One is DNP. It'll really depend on opposing team match-ups and how good Warren is out of the gate.
Markieff- 30
Plumlee- 24
Len/Randolph- One plays 12 minutes and one sits

That's 10 players and 240 minutes of PT

I think it will be more like this (10 man rotation with maybe a few minutes for Warren and Len):

Bledsoe - 17 Thomas - 31
Dragic - 34 - Bledsoe - 14
Tucker - 22, Green - 22, Warren - 4 (probably none for first half of season, then gradually goes up)
Kieff - 11, Mook - 20, Tolliver - 17
Plumlee - 24, Kieff - 20, Len - 4 (maybe more later in year)

Then of course Len, Warren and Goodwin will get quite a bit of garbage time in big wins and losses.

[Zelaznyrules]

.

Oh well, you seem hell bent on being a sour pill.

I see it as you are either building for championship or you are competing for a championship, you never want to be the team that is happy to be in the middle of the pack. I don't see how we are building toward a championship right now, we seem to be building towards an 8th seed and I am sour on that. I want more than anything for the Suns to get a franchise player and build a team around him. I think the draft is our best hope at that, it my opinion and I will hold to it. I don't want to watch us be a perennial lower seed playoff team ever year that simply pins all our hopes on a disgruntled star wanting to choose the Suns.

Bottom line, we don't have a franchise player yet, so I see why we need to be so enthralled with simply making the playoffs, let alone making a deep run when we simply don't have the pieces to do so.

I think the easiest way to get a superstar might be to get lucky in the draft. But keeping that superstar isn't all that easy if in the process of getting one you've established a culture of losing. And getting one isn't guaranteed just because you've gone and lost a bunch of games. But regardless, the facts show there is more than one way to build a championship team.

I have yet to see a foolproof plan though and no matter how much you want it to happen overnight, it won't. It's cliched but building a championship team is a process and it takes years and luck. I think it's easier to bring talent to an organization that has talent. McDonough appears to be trying to stockpile assets with an eye to acquiring or developing a superstar. I just don't see how that qualifies as building towards the 8th seed.

And we are a young team, regardless of our average age. We'll go into the season with 8 players on our roster that are 25 or younger, 4 of them will be 21 or younger when the season starts. Along with them will be our old guys - Plumlee will turn 26 in September, Green and Dragic are 28 and Tucker is 29. Tolliver and Randolph are inconsequential, the guys that matter are pretty young and fairly inexperienced.

[Scutt]

^ The Suns are like the 4th all time winningest franchise but have not titles, we are not endanger of losing our legacy because we don't have one. For the past 40 years we have put out up-tempo teams that are always good but not good enough. In the process, we have lost out on top picks and have never gotten a #1 pick overall. Getting a few top picks wouldn't be the end of the world for this franchise, it could do us a lot of good in my opinion. I would certainly prefer it to fielding a middle of the pack team, banking for a star to choose the Suns or make a trade for one.

It seems like there are only a handful of *true* superstars in the league nowadays...I see Bledsoe and Dragic as being franchise type players, as I'm sure many others do...why don't you?

Because they have not proven anything. Dragic has played like a fringe all star for only one year and Bledsoe played well in the half of the season, but I am not ready to be content with them as my teams best players. They 2nd or 3rd options on contending teams, but if you make them your number 1 guys, well your team wont be going very far. I am not going to even get into the fact that they both play the same position. Do you want to see the Suns waste half their cap space on two point gaurds? I sure don't.

[Zelaznyrules]

I don't know what your obsession with Archie is (the 26th pick who was a complete bust in college) and why you think McDonough doesn't want or try to get an all star big man. It's certainly not for a lack of trying. He drafted who he thought was the best center with the 5th pick, and then traded for a 2nd year center and started him. This is exactly what it sounds like you want with Archie.

What are you talking about? He was not a bust. He led the SEC in FTAs as a combo guard and led a talented Kentucky squad in scoring. He was also the 29th pick, not the 26th. I'm not sure what you don't see in him. He's extremely athletic, has all the tools to be a lockdown defender one day, can get to the rim at will, and is a solid 3-ball away from starting in this league as a 2-guard. He's still only 19.

Bust is too strong but he was definitely a disappointment at Kentucky. He came in as one of the most highly regarded recruits and had Calipari throwing tantrums by midseason. He's long, he has a great first step, he's incredibly athletic and he's already a pretty decent man defender with the potential to be a lockdown defender. But I think he's more than a 3 point shot away from being a starting 2 guard in this league.

Archie doesn't understand the value of a possession, doesn't recognize a good shot from a bad shot, often misses the open shooter, has no idea what to do in a defensive scheme (when to switch, how to keep his man from setting the pick etc) and while he takes it to the hoop frequently, he lacks the strength to consistently finish the play.

He is the ultimate boom or bust and was a great value draft pick. But he's not ready, he's not close to ready. He'll never be an average player IMO. In six years he'll be a superstar in this league or he'll be a forgotten man. Most raw players with superstar potential rarely get there. But many of them fail because they lack the work ethic to succeed. Archie has a good attitude and a good work ethic. I don't know if he'll get there, the odds are always against that raw player, but I'm glad he's on our team and we have a chance to see him try to make it. But counting on him now is setting him up for failure IMO.

[JDLAW]

It's next to impossible...or rarely happens that any team has more than a 10 man rotation. I'm guessing & hoping Jeff doesn't try to go over 10.

In a generic, non-garbage time game, I'll guess it'll be something around these numbers-

Dragic-32 Green-24 Goodwin-DNP
Bledsoe-32 Thomas-24 Ennis-DNP/non-active
Tucker- 24 Marcus/Tolliver/Warren- Two of the three split 38 minutes. One is DNP. It'll really depend on opposing team match-ups and how good Warren is out of the gate.
Markieff- 30
Plumlee- 24
Len/Randolph- One plays 12 minutes and one sits

That's 10 players and 240 minutes of PT

I think it will be more like this (10 man rotation with maybe a few minutes for Warren and Len):

Bledsoe - 17 Thomas - 31
Dragic - 34 - Bledsoe - 14
Tucker - 22, Green - 22, Warren - 4 (probably none for first half of season, then gradually goes up)
Kieff - 11, Mook - 20, Tolliver - 17
Plumlee - 24, Kieff - 20, Len - 4 (maybe more later in year)

Then of course Len, Warren and Goodwin will get quite a bit of garbage time in big wins and losses.

This and all other posts attempting to parse out playing time at this point in the off season has to be amongst the silliest exercises that a fan can undertake. Even the Suns coaches do not sit around and do this at this point.

[jcsunsfan]

Just need to make it 4 years 52 million and call it day, lets them save face and is goodwill so Bledsoe feels like he got a better deal than Curry and Lowery and the extra million a year wont change anything for the Suns organization.

Is that the way it works in the NBA world, throw out $4 stinking million dollars just to make a guy FEEL better? Maybe I should pout more.

[bwgood77]

I don't know what your obsession with Archie is (the 26th pick who was a complete bust in college) and why you think McDonough doesn't want or try to get an all star big man. It's certainly not for a lack of trying. He drafted who he thought was the best center with the 5th pick, and then traded for a 2nd year center and started him. This is exactly what it sounds like you want with Archie.

What are you talking about? He was not a bust. He led the SEC in FTAs as a combo guard and led a talented Kentucky squad in scoring. He was also the 29th pick, not the 26th. I'm not sure what you don't see in him. He's extremely athletic, has all the tools to be a lockdown defender one day, can get to the rim at will, and is a solid 3-ball away from starting in this league as a 2-guard. He's still only 19.

I see plenty in him. He is very athletic and shows glimpses of possibly being very good. That being said, I just asked Scutt why he would bench proven guys for him. Archie may be great, but he may not. He has so far been a disappointment, but I understand that he is young, so I don't hold it against him and definitely don't think we need to just put him in games for the hell of it. You can develop just as fast (or faster) playing against guys in practice and getting the coaching.

I think many considered him a big bust in college. He came in very high ranked in that recruiting class (tied for 3rd). Kentucky was preseason #1 and just WAS NOT good. They dropped out of the top 25 before Noel's injury and missed the tourney, losing in the first round of the NIT. This team had other good bigs too in Cauley Stein and Poythress but their guard play was atrocious. He was a shooting guard that couldn't shoot, shooting 26& from 3 but basically could only score by driving, which of course resulted in him leading the league in FTA's. So they tried him at PG but he really couldn't pass either, and averaged 2.7 apg along with over 3 turnovers. He had the sixth highest PER on the team.

Many didn't think he would go in the first round, after the way he played in college. He had been projected higher earlier in the season before his play showed perhaps he had been overrated. I think he was still taken on the potential McD saw in him for the future.

But again, I'm not saying he won't be good. I think there is a very good chance he can be a very good player, especially under Hornacek. But it probably won't come until his third year at the earliest. He's just very young and very raw.

[bwgood77]

This and all other posts attempting to parse out playing time at this point in the off season has to be amongst the silliest exercises that a fan can undertake. Even the Suns coaches do not sit around and do this at this point.

Actually I agree with you, and it's the first time I've done it, but my guess is that Warren and Len won't see significant time at all except in garbage time (along with Archie) and if Hornacek really said 2 of our point guards will be on the floor at all times in the press conference, then that would push Green to playing the 3, which pushes Marcus to the 4, and I was a little curious on how minutes might work out under that scenario (assuming no trades are made and no injuries occur), so I thought I'd participate in the exercise.

[AtheJ415]

This. Suns are beyond stupid to add another dollar until he finds a better one.

Just need to make it 4 years 52 million and call it day, lets them save face and is goodwill so Bledsoe feels like he got a better deal than Curry and Lowery and the extra million a year wont change anything for the Suns organization.

Is that the way it works in the NBA world, throw out $4 stinking million dollars just to make a guy FEEL better? Maybe I should pout more.

[JDLAW]

This and all other posts attempting to parse out playing time at this point in the off season has to be amongst the silliest exercises that a fan can undertake. Even the Suns coaches do not sit around and do this at this point.

Actually I agree with you, and it's the first time I've done it, but my guess is that Warren and Len won't see significant time at all except in garbage time (along with Archie) and if Hornacek really said 2 of our point guards will be on the floor at all times in the press conference, then that would push Green to playing the 3, which pushes Marcus to the 4, and I was a little curious on how minutes might work out under that scenario (assuming no trades are made and no injuries occur), so I thought I'd participate in the exercise.

He really did not say there would be 2 pgs on the floor at all times. I do think Kief will start at PF and Marcus will back him up. Green will get time at the 3. I think Len will get substantial playing time.

[Revived]

Regarding Bledsoe...

any reports to when they are going to make another offer? It's been pretty hush hush.

Paul Coro

Neither side wants negotiating made public so talks are very guarded. Without a competitor, the Suns don't have to improve offer.

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulcoro/sta ... 0497933312

Too late, Bledsoe's dumbass agent already told Broussard about what the Suns are offering and what he's looking for.

[bwoolf2]

Just need to make it 4 years 52 million and call it day, lets them save face and is goodwill so Bledsoe feels like he got a better deal than Curry and Lowery and the extra million a year wont change anything for the Suns organization.

Is that the way it works in the NBA world, throw out $4 stinking million dollars just to make a guy FEEL better? Maybe I should pout more.

The better idea would be to be good enough to get drafted in the NBA and then you can pout more then. And to answer your question yes in the NBA sometimes thats how it works, 4 million over 4 years is nothing we paid the Beas over twice that to not play for us! You dont have to like it but its a different world than the rest of live in.

[Scutt]

I see plenty in him. He is very athletic and shows glimpses of possibly being very good. That being said, I just asked Scutt why he would bench proven guys for him. Archie may be great, but he may not. He has so far been a disappointment, but I understand that he is young, so I don't hold it against him and definitely don't think we need to just put him in games for the hell of it. You can develop just as fast (or faster) playing against guys in practice and getting the coaching.

You are missing my point, I would never want those proven guys to be on a rebuilding team in the first place. My ideal Suns lineup next year would look something like this:

Dragic/ Ennis
Green/ Goodwin
Marcus/ Warren
Markieff/ Brown
Plumlee/ Len

By mid year if Goodwin is playing well enough, ship out Green. When Dragic came back to the Suns in 2012 that is what I thought we were going to see, Dragic and a bunch of young guys who have something to prove. That is something I would enjoy watching.

[PhxSuns1]

Can we get some moves up in here?! A trade? An offer sheet? SOMETHING?! lol

[JDLAW]

Regarding Bledsoe...

any reports to when they are going to make another offer? It's been pretty hush hush.

Paul Coro

Neither side wants negotiating made public so talks are very guarded. Without a competitor, the Suns don't have to improve offer.

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulcoro/sta ... 0497933312

Too late, Bledsoe's dumbass agent already told Broussard about what the Suns are offering and what he's looking for.

How do you know these numbers were not made up by Broussard who has been known to make up things and attribute them to 'sources'? The other point is how do you that these were not merely starting points and the parties have moved from those?

None of us know anything about what is going on in negotiations and where the sides stand, but most are willing to vent and denounce. I am confident that at the end of the day there will be a deal made and then every one can gripe at it - not enough, too much, too short, too long, not enough contingencies ….

[JDLAW]

I see plenty in him. He is very athletic and shows glimpses of possibly being very good. That being said, I just asked Scutt why he would bench proven guys for him. Archie may be great, but he may not. He has so far been a disappointment, but I understand that he is young, so I don't hold it against him and definitely don't think we need to just put him in games for the hell of it. You can develop just as fast (or faster) playing against guys in practice and getting the coaching.

You are missing my point, I would never want those proven guys to be on a rebuilding team in the first place. My ideal Suns lineup next year would look something like this:

Dragic/ Ennis
Green/ Goodwin
Marcus/ Warren
Markieff/ Brown
Plumlee/ Len

By mid year if Goodwin is playing well enough, ship out Green. When Dragic came back to the Suns in 2012 that is what I thought we were going to see, Dragic and a bunch of young guys who have something to prove. That is something I would enjoy watching.

Bledsoe just disappears on a puff of smoke with nothing in return? Brown? Tucker is buried on the bench? This might be your ideal, but for most of us this is major step backwards. Ennis and Brown will likely get little to no playing time on eh NBA level. The goal does not seem to be winning games with this proposal and is extremely unlikely.