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The One And Only Offseason Thread 4

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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#441 » by Saberestar » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:57 am

JDLAW wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
JDLAW wrote:This and all other posts attempting to parse out playing time at this point in the off season has to be amongst the silliest exercises that a fan can undertake. Even the Suns coaches do not sit around and do this at this point.


Actually I agree with you, and it's the first time I've done it, but my guess is that Warren and Len won't see significant time at all except in garbage time (along with Archie) and if Hornacek really said 2 of our point guards will be on the floor at all times in the press conference, then that would push Green to playing the 3, which pushes Marcus to the 4, and I was a little curious on how minutes might work out under that scenario (assuming no trades are made and no injuries occur), so I thought I'd participate in the exercise.


He really did not say there would be 2 pgs on the floor at all times. I do think Kief will start at PF and Marcus will back him up. Green will get time at the 3. I think Len will get substantial playing time.

Jeff Hornacek
"That's what our vision is," head coach Jeff Hornacek said about the potential of having Thomas, Bledsoe and Dragic at his disposal. "You hear the three-headed monster about big guys all the time, but maybe we got the three-headed monster in the guards. There is going to be two of those guys on the court at all times. When it happens, teams are going to have to plan for that and really focus. We feel we can always be on the attack with three of them on the team and two of them out on the court most of the time."


Ryan McDonough
We feel like that's a good weapon for us to have. He and Goran and Eric are guys that are capable of getting 20-plus points or eight or nine assists on any given night. We feel like with the variety and having those three guys and having two of them on the floor at all times, that really gives Coach (Jeff) Hornacek a lot of weapons to choose from."
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#442 » by Christine-In-AZ » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:59 am

JDLAW wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
ChrisInAZ wrote:It's next to impossible...or rarely happens that any team has more than a 10 man rotation. I'm guessing & hoping Jeff doesn't try to go over 10.

In a generic, non-garbage time game, I'll guess it'll be something around these numbers-

Dragic-32 Green-24 Goodwin-DNP
Bledsoe-32 Thomas-24 Ennis-DNP/non-active
Tucker- 24 Marcus/Tolliver/Warren- Two of the three split 38 minutes. One is DNP. It'll really depend on opposing team match-ups and how good Warren is out of the gate.
Markieff- 30
Plumlee- 24
Len/Randolph- One plays 12 minutes and one sits

That's 10 players and 240 minutes of PT


I think it will be more like this (10 man rotation with maybe a few minutes for Warren and Len):

Bledsoe - 17 Thomas - 31
Dragic - 34 - Bledsoe - 14
Tucker - 22, Green - 22, Warren - 4 (probably none for first half of season, then gradually goes up)
Kieff - 11, Mook - 20, Tolliver - 17
Plumlee - 24, Kieff - 20, Len - 4 (maybe more later in year)

Then of course Len, Warren and Goodwin will get quite a bit of garbage time in big wins and losses.


This and all other posts attempting to parse out playing time at this point in the off season has to be amongst the silliest exercises that a fan can undertake. Even the Suns coaches do not sit around and do this at this point.


been doing this for decades as a Suns fan...so colour me extremely silly.

I sure hope the Suns staff doesn't do this kinda paper parsing.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#443 » by JDLAW » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:04 am

ChrisInAZ wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I think it will be more like this (10 man rotation with maybe a few minutes for Warren and Len):

Bledsoe - 17 Thomas - 31
Dragic - 34 - Bledsoe - 14
Tucker - 22, Green - 22, Warren - 4 (probably none for first half of season, then gradually goes up)
Kieff - 11, Mook - 20, Tolliver - 17
Plumlee - 24, Kieff - 20, Len - 4 (maybe more later in year)

Then of course Len, Warren and Goodwin will get quite a bit of garbage time in big wins and losses.


This and all other posts attempting to parse out playing time at this point in the off season has to be amongst the silliest exercises that a fan can undertake. Even the Suns coaches do not sit around and do this at this point.


been doing this for decades as a Suns fan...so colour me extremely silly.

I sure hope the Suns staff doesn't do this kinda paper parsing.


I think the exercise is silly at this time - after training camp and during the exhibition not so much. It is a timing thing. I have read your comments well thought out and insightful - you're far from silly.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#444 » by RunDogGun » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:05 am

JDLAW wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
JDLAW wrote:This and all other posts attempting to parse out playing time at this point in the off season has to be amongst the silliest exercises that a fan can undertake. Even the Suns coaches do not sit around and do this at this point.


Actually I agree with you, and it's the first time I've done it, but my guess is that Warren and Len won't see significant time at all except in garbage time (along with Archie) and if Hornacek really said 2 of our point guards will be on the floor at all times in the press conference, then that would push Green to playing the 3, which pushes Marcus to the 4, and I was a little curious on how minutes might work out under that scenario (assuming no trades are made and no injuries occur), so I thought I'd participate in the exercise.


He really did not say there would be 2 pgs on the floor at all times. I do think Kief will start at PF and Marcus will back him up. Green will get time at the 3. I think Len will get substantial playing time.


He did say that two of the three (referring to Bledsoe, Dragic, and IT), would be on the floor at all times. He may have walked back that statement, but he did say it. :wink:
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#445 » by Scutt » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:09 am

JDLAW wrote:
Bledsoe just disappears on a puff of smoke with nothing in return? Brown? Tucker is buried on the bench? This might be your ideal, but for most of us this is major step backwards. Ennis and Brown will likely get little to no playing time on eh NBA level. The goal does not seem to be winning games with this proposal and is extremely unlikely.


I would sign and trade Bledsoe for whatever we can get, and I would never have brought PJ Tucker back. The goal would be to let Markeiff, Len, Goodwin, and Warren all get a chance to bond together and develop, while securing a good draft position. I am well aware that this is unlikely and a step backwards, but I am a Suns fan and I can dream. Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to move forward.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#446 » by Christine-In-AZ » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:09 am

JDLAW wrote:
ChrisInAZ wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
This and all other posts attempting to parse out playing time at this point in the off season has to be amongst the silliest exercises that a fan can undertake. Even the Suns coaches do not sit around and do this at this point.


been doing this for decades as a Suns fan...so colour me extremely silly.

I sure hope the Suns staff doesn't do this kinda paper parsing.


I think the exercise is silly at this time - after training camp and during the exhibition not so much. It is a timing thing. I have read your comments well thought out and insightful - you're far from silly.


Thanks ...just a little bored I guess waiting for Bledsoe and Paul to wake up and smell the reality so we can move onward.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#447 » by JDLAW » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:12 am

RunDogGun wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Actually I agree with you, and it's the first time I've done it, but my guess is that Warren and Len won't see significant time at all except in garbage time (along with Archie) and if Hornacek really said 2 of our point guards will be on the floor at all times in the press conference, then that would push Green to playing the 3, which pushes Marcus to the 4, and I was a little curious on how minutes might work out under that scenario (assuming no trades are made and no injuries occur), so I thought I'd participate in the exercise.


He really did not say there would be 2 pgs on the floor at all times. I do think Kief will start at PF and Marcus will back him up. Green will get time at the 3. I think Len will get substantial playing time.


He did say that two of the three (referring to Bledsoe, Dragic, and IT), would be on the floor at all times. He may have walked back that statement, but he did say it. :wink:


I agree this was said and I think it was said in part to drown out the din from the media and pundits who are questioning the move. I do think we'll see Green and Goodwin get time in the backcourt also and not just injury replacement or garbage minutes. Everyone thought Green might be released last off season, but he turned out to be one of the biggest impact players on the roster. I just do not see him getting buried in the numbers game. I could actually see Green and Thomas as a platoon substitute for Bledsoe and Dragic at times. Just as soon as a team figures how to match up with Bledsoe and Dragic - here comes the smaller Thomas and the larger Green to make the opposition scramble for a new matchup.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#448 » by JDLAW » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:14 am

ChrisInAZ wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
ChrisInAZ wrote:
been doing this for decades as a Suns fan...so colour me extremely silly.

I sure hope the Suns staff doesn't do this kinda paper parsing.


I think the exercise is silly at this time - after training camp and during the exhibition not so much. It is a timing thing. I have read your comments well thought out and insightful - you're far from silly.


Thanks ...just a little bored I guess waiting for Bledsoe and Paul to wake up and smell the reality so we can move onward.


I think we all are - in motor racing (F1) this is referred to as the "Silly Season".
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#449 » by Moochthemonkey » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:15 am

Scutt wrote:Because they have not proven anything.


They've proven more than college players
Dragic is entering his 3rd season as a full time starter, Bledsoe as his second
Like college players entering the NBA, they still are expected to improve. Why do you feel they have reached their potential?

Do you want to see the Suns waste half their cap space on two point gaurds? I sure don't.

[/quote]

Waste isn't the best word choice...nor is that fair criticism, where as either one can slide into the two spot not to mention the concept of a 1-5 position is far less rigid in the league these days...

Should the Cavs give up Wiggins because both him and Lebron are natural SFs?
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#450 » by RunDogGun » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:15 am

Scutt wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
Bledsoe just disappears on a puff of smoke with nothing in return? Brown? Tucker is buried on the bench? This might be your ideal, but for most of us this is major step backwards. Ennis and Brown will likely get little to no playing time on eh NBA level. The goal does not seem to be winning games with this proposal and is extremely unlikely.


I would sign and trade Bledsoe for whatever we can get, and I would never have brought PJ Tucker back. The goal would be to let Markeiff, Len, Goodwin, and Warren all get a chance to bond together and develop, while securing a good draft position. I am well aware that this is unlikely and a step backwards, but I am a Suns fan and I can dream. Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to move forward.

I don't know how you walk, but I rarely ever take a step backwards to go forwards. :banghead:

I am so glad you don't run this team. :crazy:
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#451 » by RaisingArizona » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:18 am

RunDogGun wrote:
Scutt wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
Bledsoe just disappears on a puff of smoke with nothing in return? Brown? Tucker is buried on the bench? This might be your ideal, but for most of us this is major step backwards. Ennis and Brown will likely get little to no playing time on eh NBA level. The goal does not seem to be winning games with this proposal and is extremely unlikely.


I would sign and trade Bledsoe for whatever we can get, and I would never have brought PJ Tucker back. The goal would be to let Markeiff, Len, Goodwin, and Warren all get a chance to bond together and develop, while securing a good draft position. I am well aware that this is unlikely and a step backwards, but I am a Suns fan and I can dream. Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to move forward.

I don't know how you walk, but I rarely ever take a step backwards to go forwards. :banghead:

I am so glad you don't run this team. :crazy:

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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#452 » by JDLAW » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:19 am

Scutt wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
Bledsoe just disappears on a puff of smoke with nothing in return? Brown? Tucker is buried on the bench? This might be your ideal, but for most of us this is major step backwards. Ennis and Brown will likely get little to no playing time on eh NBA level. The goal does not seem to be winning games with this proposal and is extremely unlikely.


I would sign and trade Bledsoe for whatever we can get, and I would never have brought PJ Tucker back. The goal would be to let Markeiff, Len, Goodwin, and Warren all get a chance to bond together and develop, while securing a good draft position. I am well aware that this is unlikely and a step backwards, but I am a Suns fan and I can dream. Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to move forward.


Sorry - don't buy it. You S&T Bledsoe for whatever and the return is not good enough to crack the rotation of your ideal line-up? Without saying it expressly, you're advocating and dreaming of a tank-job. i do not think the Suns want any part of that. BTW tanking is not going to be quite so profitable as the NBA is looking at and is likely to alter the lottery odds.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#453 » by RaisingArizona » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:20 am

S(B)utt us trolling. Just ignore him.

Also, this site sucks to use on a phone.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#454 » by JTrain » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:21 am

Scutt wrote:And again that last line is complete bull. How many times do I have to type this? WE ARE NOT THAT YOUNG!! ( I feel like Owen Wilson in Wedding Crashers) The Suns average age for their rotation players LAST YEAR was 26.1 years old, putting us right in the middle of the pack, but keep telling yourself we are a young and upcoming team, whatever helps you sleep.


A weighted average based on expected minutes played would put us at 26.08 years for this upcoming season. I imagine that would put us in the 10-12 range among youngest teams, by that measure. And while weighted average is a fine measure, it doesn't entirely capture what is important about being a "young team".

For example, a team might have two brilliant superstars who are 36 years old, and then a stable of young contributors, most of whom fall in the 19-23 range. Their weighted average might be 24.5, which would put them among the youngest five teams in the league. But in three years the two vets will be either retired or significantly worse, taking the team from a 60 win title contender to a 40 win lottery team. Therefore being a very young team statistically didn't really mean much for their near future.

I think what's really important for a team's age is: In 2-4 years, will the current key pieces still be playing at a high level, allowing us to compete for a title with good draft pick development and free agent maneuvering?

In the Suns' case, I think the answer is definitely "yes". In three years, PJ Tucker will be our oldest significant contributor at 32. Dragic will be 31 which I think is still prime range for his type. Bledsoe (barring injury) and the twins will be 27 and just hitting their peaks. We will hopefully have a proven young center in Plumlee or Len, and Archie and TJ will be blooming into young stars. Throw in a couple more key draft picks or free agent acquisitions and you have a contender.

In short, I think we are a young team poised to breakout in the next two or three years, and yet we have enough experience to win a lot of games now.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#455 » by RunDogGun » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:25 am

JDLAW wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
He really did not say there would be 2 pgs on the floor at all times. I do think Kief will start at PF and Marcus will back him up. Green will get time at the 3. I think Len will get substantial playing time.


He did say that two of the three (referring to Bledsoe, Dragic, and IT), would be on the floor at all times. He may have walked back that statement, but he did say it. :wink:


I agree this was said and I think it was said in part to drown out the din from the media and pundits who are questioning the move. I do think we'll see Green and Goodwin get time in the backcourt also and not just injury replacement or garbage minutes. Everyone thought Green might be released last off season, but he turned out to be one of the biggest impact players on the roster. I just do not see him getting buried in the numbers game. I could actually see Green and Thomas as a platoon substitute for Bledsoe and Dragic at times. Just as soon as a team figures how to match up with Bledsoe and Dragic - here comes the smaller Thomas and the larger Green to make the opposition scramble for a new matchup.


I still see Jeff sticking with either Goran or Bledsoe on the court at all times, and then see which works best with those two (.either GG or IT). But I see Green getting a close to equal minutes at the three as he will at the two. After watching Goodwin in the SL, I really don't see him getting minutes for a good portion of the season. We just have better options. Maybe he gets some burn if defense is sorely needed.

But it all will depend on the Bledsoe situation, if he is content with the contract he got/gets, and then how this whole thing plays out with his teammates. I think every player will understand that you have to do what is best for your family, but they will also understand that he is being offered a decent contract, and wonder if he cares more about the team and it's success or just the paycheck.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#456 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:26 am

JDLAW wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
JDLAW wrote:This and all other posts attempting to parse out playing time at this point in the off season has to be amongst the silliest exercises that a fan can undertake. Even the Suns coaches do not sit around and do this at this point.


Actually I agree with you, and it's the first time I've done it, but my guess is that Warren and Len won't see significant time at all except in garbage time (along with Archie) and if Hornacek really said 2 of our point guards will be on the floor at all times in the press conference, then that would push Green to playing the 3, which pushes Marcus to the 4, and I was a little curious on how minutes might work out under that scenario (assuming no trades are made and no injuries occur), so I thought I'd participate in the exercise.


He really did not say there would be 2 pgs on the floor at all times. I do think Kief will start at PF and Marcus will back him up. Green will get time at the 3. I think Len will get substantial playing time.


Oh, I didn't watch it, just taking somebody at their word here. That makes a little more sense, as it seems Green should get at least a little time at the 2, especially depending on the matchups.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#457 » by Sunsdeuce » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:30 am

Scutt wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
Bledsoe just disappears on a puff of smoke with nothing in return? Brown? Tucker is buried on the bench? This might be your ideal, but for most of us this is major step backwards. Ennis and Brown will likely get little to no playing time on eh NBA level. The goal does not seem to be winning games with this proposal and is extremely unlikely.


I would sign and trade Bledsoe for whatever we can get, and I would never have brought PJ Tucker back. The goal would be to let Markeiff, Len, Goodwin, and Warren all get a chance to bond together and develop, while securing a good draft position. I am well aware that this is unlikely and a step backwards, but I am a Suns fan and I can dream. Sometimes you have to take a step back in order tomove forward.

I totally understand what you are saying and you have some very good points. You are right, the suns lack a franchise guy. I love goran as much as the next guy but I know he can't carry a team to a championship. He is more of a Manu that needs to be an asset to the cornerstone (like Duncan).

Also, this team really needs to develop the young players. I was not on board with signing tucker. He isn't that good and he is also taking away minutes from players that really need the minutes.

I don't agree with some here that being a 8-12 seed without a cornerstone player is a smart way to build. What do all the contenders have in common?.....they have a top draft pick. Spurs...Duncan, Cleveland...lebron, okc....Durant, Chicago......rose, Houston....Dwight, clippers....griffin.


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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#458 » by RunDogGun » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:30 am

bwgood77 wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Actually I agree with you, and it's the first time I've done it, but my guess is that Warren and Len won't see significant time at all except in garbage time (along with Archie) and if Hornacek really said 2 of our point guards will be on the floor at all times in the press conference, then that would push Green to playing the 3, which pushes Marcus to the 4, and I was a little curious on how minutes might work out under that scenario (assuming no trades are made and no injuries occur), so I thought I'd participate in the exercise.


He really did not say there would be 2 pgs on the floor at all times. I do think Kief will start at PF and Marcus will back him up. Green will get time at the 3. I think Len will get substantial playing time.


Oh, I didn't watch it, just taking somebody at their word here. That makes a little more sense, as it seems Green should get at least a little time at the 2, especially depending on the matchups.

Jeff and Ryan both said it, Saberstar put the quotes at the top of this page. But whether Jeff sticks with that or not, is completely unknown. I think he will stick with playing whomever is best for the team at that time.
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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#459 » by Moochthemonkey » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:31 am

RunDogGun wrote:
Scutt wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
Bledsoe just disappears on a puff of smoke with nothing in return? Brown? Tucker is buried on the bench? This might be your ideal, but for most of us this is major step backwards. Ennis and Brown will likely get little to no playing time on eh NBA level. The goal does not seem to be winning games with this proposal and is extremely unlikely.


I would sign and trade Bledsoe for whatever we can get, and I would never have brought PJ Tucker back. The goal would be to let Markeiff, Len, Goodwin, and Warren all get a chance to bond together and develop, while securing a good draft position. I am well aware that this is unlikely and a step backwards, but I am a Suns fan and I can dream. Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to move forward.

I don't know how you walk, but I rarely ever take a step backwards to go forwards. :banghead:

I am so glad you don't run this team. :crazy:


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Re: The One And Only Offseason Thread 4 

Post#460 » by rsavaj » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:31 am

Honestly, I can see the logic behind the "one step back, two steps forward" thing. Tanking, rebuilding, whatever the hell you want to call it...it's a good fantasy to have, and we all want to dream of that superduperstar we drafted leading this city to its first championship.

But as I've gotten a bit older(mid-20s, mind you) and busier, with less time to really stress out about the NBA the way I did during the SSOL years, my priority as a fan has shifted from "THIS TEAM MUST WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP OR ELSE!" to "when I come home from work at the end of the day, I just want to watch an entertaining and competitive team."

Philadelphia and Orlando may be closer to a championship than we are, because maybe they've drafted the next big thing. But you know what? I....kind of don't really care about the title or bust stuff anymore. I know that sounds blasphemous, and 17 year old me would not believe I'm saying it, but as long as the team is fun and filled with guys I can root for, I'll take it. Maybe we never win a title because we're never bad enough to land "THE GUY", and yeah, that's frustrating, but if I have a chance at watching a good team play fun basketball most nights of the year, I'm more than satisfied at this point.

Carry on.

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