RealGM Top 100 List #10

[ardee]

So part of the reason why to you that Kobe is > than LBJ is because he makes his teammates better, such a great facilitator...yet, in this series only, throwing 2 guys at him, which Kobe had never dealt with before completely threw him off his game???

All I hear from you is how he was LA's facilatator but now you state that they needed GP or even KM? Dude Kobe/Shaq alone are more than enough to tip any scale and that series could have been much more competitive if egos were put aside. So nothing else around that time was going on then huh? And yes, Phil. He should never have been welcomed back to LA given his coaching performance.

I assign equal blame for the '04 Finals.

Kobe lost it on offense, Shaq lost it on defense.

That was one year Kobe's shot selection did leave a lot to be desired, and that was also one year no one can deny that Shaq's PnR defense was a glaring weakness, Billups was having a field day running the same play like 8 times in a row because Shaq wasn't rotating properly.

[ceiling raiser]

This isn't true at all. The only reason Kobe get's negative view on this site is because we have trolls like exodus and other posters who try and compare Kobe to players that are a tier or two above Kobe. If you were to compare Kobe to players in his same tier, then we could have a great discussion. The problem is some people on this forum, and they know who they are, try to compare Kobe to top 5 players, when that is laughable.

Back to the thread, I would vote Bird here, although I have both Bird and Kobe inside my top 10 it is a shame that one will be left out.

I'd have to agree that a lot of the comparisons on this site place Kobe in a position to fail.

I don't think he's going to be in such a position in this thread, though. There were some occasional mentions and posts in the first nine threads, and he's only now starting to pick up steam, and likely is at least another thread (possibly a few) away from being selected. I don't think there will be many guys on the table remaining that outclass him when it is indeed his turn.

Kobe's an interesting player. I'm hoping to see some new arguments when he becomes a leading candidate in the voting.

[andrewww]

However, for every pro-kobe poster like him, I can count at least 5+ eligible voters who won't even consider him until closer to the 20th slot ?

1. Prove it or don't say it. Name names.

2. It's perfectly reasonable for people to not vote for Kobe until close to 20 without it being some anti-Kobe agenda. We have 9 in and the following players still not on the list: KG, Dirk, Admiral, Mailman, Dr J, Oscar, West, Moses, Bird. You can easily make a case for each of those players(and maybe some others) over Kobe which takes him pretty close to 20.

3. Why do we have so many guys still so worried about where a particular player ends up?

Again, if you've read my posts throughout the project, it's aboud the discussion and not the ranking. MacGill thought even discussing or voting for Bean at this slot was ridiculous, which is what is ridiculous. Of course you can make a case for every player listed which I agree with, it just depeneds on what criteria your favour.

I don't appreciate these labels being thrown at me.

[kayess]

I even read one post where Kobe was last on the list because he felt he gave his chance the least chance of winning a title, then if you look at the other 7 or 8 players nominated won a combined 7 rings while Kobe himself has 5. Like c'mon, it's cool if you don't think he's great enough to be in the discussion right now, but at least make speak factual evidence and be objective.

If we're just going to count rings, what's the point of this project? I haven't been able to post much because I'm way too busy, but I'd still like to read the best possible arguments for players. Part of that includes understanding the impact they have on a game of basketball, and how much that impact translates into your chances of winning a ring.

What happens in reality is affected not only by a player's impact, but also the circumstances that surround him. Is it really so hard to fathom that a guy exerts a greater influence on the court than Kobe, but wins less championships because he plays in a **** market with **** teammates and a **** coach, as opposed to Kobe playing in LA, with Shaq/great supporting cast, and Phil **** Jackson?

But see, if I say that there's a very vocal group that will say "so we're going to punish Kobe for being in a good situation?" Hell no. What that means is we're not punishing anyone for not winning as much as Kobe when, clearly, his circumstances weren't as good as Kobe's.

Kobe's always going to be polarizing because there are always people who will be annoyed at how he's publicly perceived as this player whose impact/skillset rivals or even exceeds MJ ("Kobe's even more skilled", "better footwork", etc.), and when the response to this is some actual analysis on why that isn't true (of course other people take it waaay too far in the other direction), the response to that, by some Kobe fans, is to cry foul and think there's some sort of conspiracy against him.

It's a never-ending cycle.

[colts18]

If you want me to name names, then I certainly will. I was trying to be civil but if you insist and are implying that I'm spewing nonsense, here goes.

1)Baller2014
2)RSCD3_
3)Colts18
4)Trex_8063
5)ReservoirDawg

It's not so much about who is getting voted in, but rather the nonsense and completey inaccurate stereotypes to justify one's selection that I am calling out.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm a Kobe hater. All I do throw out facts, not stupid narrative based arguments (bad teammate, etc.).

In fact, if you read my posts, I rank Kobe pretty high. All my past posts indicate that I have Kobe in the top 10.

This is one of my past lists:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Shaq
5. Wilt
6. Russell
7. Duncan
8. Olajuwon
9. Kobe
10. Bird

viewtopic.php?t=1128465

Is Kobe close to #20 on that list?

[andrewww]

If we're just going to count rings, what's the point of this project? I haven't been able to post much because I'm way too busy, but I'd still like to read the best possible arguments for players. Part of that includes understanding the impact they have on the game of basketball, and how much that impact translates into your chances of winning a ring.

What happens in reality is affected not only by a player's impact, but also the circumstances that surround him. Is it really so hard to fathom that a guy exerts a greater influence on the court than Kobe, but wins less championships because he plays in a **** market with **** teammates and a **** coach, as opposed to Kobe playing in LA, with Shaq/great supporting cast, and Phil **** Jackson?

It's not hard tofathom another player having a greater influence on the court you're exactly right, but then is it hard to fathom that a guy who actually got the result right 5 times must be doing something right at least and was exerting maybe marginal influence at least?

Otherwise, we could stick someone like Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady into Kobe's position and they'd be able to produce close to those 5 championships since he was the luckiest player ever by playing with Shaq and Phil?

[andrewww]

If you want me to name names, then I certainly will. I was trying to be civil but if you insist and are implying that I'm spewing nonsense, here goes.

1)Baller2014
2)RSCD3_
3)Colts18
4)Trex_8063
5)ReservoirDawg

It's not so much about who is getting voted in, but rather the nonsense and completey inaccurate stereotypes to justify one's selection that I am calling out.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm a Kobe hater. All I do throw out facts, not stupid narrative based arguments (bad teammate, etc.).

In fact, if you read my posts, I rank Kobe pretty high. All my past posts indicate that I have Kobe in the top 10.

This is one of my past lists:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Shaq
5. Wilt
6. Russell
7. Duncan
8. Olajuwon
9. Kobe
10. Bird

viewtopic.php?t=1128465

Is Kobe close to #20 on that list?

It's about the discussion and not the ranking.

I don't question anyone who has Kobe lower than what is generally perceived, it's just those who spew out old rhetoric as if it's gospel.

Then the one few objectives posters (myself included) add to a good discussion but then get called out for that, it's frustrating.

[Texas Chuck]

Again, if you've read my posts throughout the project, it's aboud the discussion and not the ranking. MacGill thought even discussing or voting for Bean at this slot was ridiculous, which is what is ridiculous. Of course you can make a case for every player listed which I agree with, it just depeneds on what criteria your favour.

I don't appreciate these labels being thrown at me.

PM sent. We can have this conversation outside the thread.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I was simply replying to the notion that UBF himself represents those who voted for Kobe as proposterous, as if we were discounting his negatives, which I can speak for myself I certainly haven't.

I'm trying to understand why my name keeps getting thrown around, when I've had good discussions with posters about the pluses/minuses of Kobe, Bird, KG in this thread.

Leave me out of the "Fan" battles. My hope is that people realize that this is just a freakin message board thread, and that these rankings are just for discussion. It's not that serious guys.

[ardee]

I have the vote as follows:

Larry Bird ((12) Baller2014, DQuinn1575, ClydeFrazier, Warspite, rich316. DHodgkins, acrossthecourt, trex_8063. ronnymac2, Moonbeam, ChuckTexas, DannyNoonan1221

Kobe (3) andrewww, GCPantalones, AnUnbiasedFan

Garnett (2) PCProductions, therealbig3

DRobinson (1) magicmerl

Myself and JB both voted for Kobe. I was post 139 I believe.

Looks like we might still have a run off, since KG has two more votes to be counted as well and there might be more.

[ardee]

If you want me to name names, then I certainly will. I was trying to be civil but if you insist and are implying that I'm spewing nonsense, here goes.

1)Baller2014
2)RSCD3_
3)Colts18
4)Trex_8063
5)ReservoirDawg

It's not so much about who is getting voted in, but rather the nonsense and completey inaccurate stereotypes to justify one's selection that I am calling out.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm a Kobe hater. All I do throw out facts, not stupid narrative based arguments (bad teammate, etc.).

In fact, if you read my posts, I rank Kobe pretty high. All my past posts indicate that I have Kobe in the top 10.

This is one of my past lists:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Shaq
5. Wilt
6. Russell
7. Duncan
8. Olajuwon
9. Kobe
10. Bird

viewtopic.php?t=1128465

Is Kobe close to #20 on that list?

It's about the discussion and not the ranking.

I don't question anyone who has Kobe lower than what is generally perceived, it's just those who spew out old rhetoric as if it's gospel.

Then the one few objectives posters (myself included) add to a good discussion but then get called out for that, it's frustrating.

So are you voting Kobe next if Bird gets in here?

[andrewww]

I was simply replying to the notion that UBF himself represents those who voted for Kobe as proposterous, as if we were discounting his negatives, which I can speak for myself I certainly haven't.

I'm trying to understand why my name keeps getting thrown around, when I've had good discussions with posters about the pluses/minuses of Kobe, Bird, KG in this thread.

Leave me out of the "Fan" battles. My hope is that people realize that this is just a freakin message board thread, and that these rankings are just for discussion. It's not that serious guys.

A lot of posters here associate you with that label. I hope you understand that I'm not the one dragging you into 'fan' battles, that would be MacGill.

Either way, let's continue with the topic at hand.

[ardee]

1) UBF had mentioned that he was going to vote for Kobe at #6...if we're going to consider votes "outrageous" then that's one that would count as Kobe is typically seen as an 11-13 player.

Wrong. Kobe is typically seen as a top 8-10 player, right in the mix with Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq. So 6 is not such an 'outrageous' vote.

What is 'outrageous' is people wanting to rank him at 14 and 15 behind guys like KG and Karl Malone.

I would have voted for him at 8 had Magic got in earlier (another big mistake in the results, Magic out of the top 5 is something I think you could call 'outrageous').

[andrewww]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm a Kobe hater. All I do throw out facts, not stupid narrative based arguments (bad teammate, etc.).

In fact, if you read my posts, I rank Kobe pretty high. All my past posts indicate that I have Kobe in the top 10.

This is one of my past lists:

viewtopic.php?t=1128465

Is Kobe close to #20 on that list?

It's about the discussion and not the ranking.

I don't question anyone who has Kobe lower than what is generally perceived, it's just those who spew out old rhetoric as if it's gospel.

Then the one few objectives posters (myself included) add to a good discussion but then get called out for that, it's frustrating.

So are you voting Kobe next if Bird gets in here?

Given the information in this discussion so far, I would say yes but that's not to say if someone brought forth really convincing informaton or argument that I wouldn't change it.

Doctor MJ has voted for KG since I forget which slot, but being the objective poster that he is I see no reason as to why anyone wouldn't be able to convince him otherwise if it was a good argument.

[Doctor MJ]

And I'm more than willing to try to quantify and adjust Mikan, Oscar Robertson, Julius Erving, Rick Barry, Moses Malone, and anyone else.

How would you go about quantifying and adjusting erving and (to a lesser extent) barry? This is something i've been struggling with as we get closer to erving, as I think his ABA years should be valued relatively highly.

Something like (numbers are examples only)

The ABA in 1970 was 5 points worse than the NBA, so deduct 1 point per player
The ABA in 1976 was 3 points worse than the NBA, so deduct .6 points per player

So instead of being plus 6 points, maybe Doctor J is plus 5.4 points -

remember examples only - I don't want to debate Doctor J or anyone else until they are nominated.

But when they are, I do want to debate - or express my opinions - on the subject.

http://www.apbr.org/oct2000.html

Very good stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[kayess]

If we're just going to count rings, what's the point of this project? I haven't been able to post much because I'm way too busy, but I'd still like to read the best possible arguments for players. Part of that includes understanding the impact they have on the game of basketball, and how much that impact translates into your chances of winning a ring.

What happens in reality is affected not only by a player's impact, but also the circumstances that surround him. Is it really so hard to fathom that a guy exerts a greater influence on the court than Kobe, but wins less championships because he plays in a **** market with **** teammates and a **** coach, as opposed to Kobe playing in LA, with Shaq/great supporting cast, and Phil **** Jackson?

It's not hard tofathom another player having a greater influence on the court you're exactly right, but then is it hard to fathom that a guy who actually got the result right 5 times must be doing something right at least and was exerting maybe marginal influence at least?

Otherwise, we could stick someone like Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady into Kobe's position and they'd be able to produce close to those 5 championships since he was the luckiest player ever by playing with Shaq and Phil?

It's not a guy who got the result right - his teams did. Important distinction.

Lol no I haven't seen those guys mentioned over Kobe at all. Sorry, but that strikes me as being disingenuous. Nowhere was it implied he was the luckiest player ever, either, and please, be honest with yourself - compare his situation to some of the other ATGs, did he get the short end of the stick?

[ardee]

compare his situation to some of the other ATGs, did he get the short end of the stick?

[andrewww]

If we're just going to count rings, what's the point of this project? I haven't been able to post much because I'm way too busy, but I'd still like to read the best possible arguments for players. Part of that includes understanding the impact they have on the game of basketball, and how much that impact translates into your chances of winning a ring.

What happens in reality is affected not only by a player's impact, but also the circumstances that surround him. Is it really so hard to fathom that a guy exerts a greater influence on the court than Kobe, but wins less championships because he plays in a **** market with **** teammates and a **** coach, as opposed to Kobe playing in LA, with Shaq/great supporting cast, and Phil **** Jackson?

It's not hard tofathom another player having a greater influence on the court you're exactly right, but then is it hard to fathom that a guy who actually got the result right 5 times must be doing something right at least and was exerting maybe marginal influence at least?

Otherwise, we could stick someone like Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady into Kobe's position and they'd be able to produce close to those 5 championships since he was the luckiest player ever by playing with Shaq and Phil?

It's not a guy who got the result right - his teams did. Important distinction.

Lol no I haven't seen those guys mentioned over Kobe at all. Sorry, but that strikes me as being disingenuous. Nowhere was it implied he was the luckiest player ever, either, and please, be honest with yourself - compare his situation to some of the other ATGs, did he get the short end of the stick?

Compared to someone like Duncan, I actually would. Playing in an environment where there is stability throughout your entire career is something that very few others, if any have the the privilege of enjoying. Duncan is and was great for Pop, but the leadership goes both ways.

Kobe's ego clashed with Shaq's ego, that much is clear.

What you're saying with the Lakers getting it right is that Kobe didn't get it right, correct?

[kayess]

It's not hard tofathom another player having a greater influence on the court you're exactly right, but then is it hard to fathom that a guy who actually got the result right 5 times must be doing something right at least and was exerting maybe marginal influence at least?

Otherwise, we could stick someone like Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady into Kobe's position and they'd be able to produce close to those 5 championships since he was the luckiest player ever by playing with Shaq and Phil?

It's not a guy who got the result right - his teams did. Important distinction.

Lol no I haven't seen those guys mentioned over Kobe at all. Sorry, but that strikes me as being disingenuous. Nowhere was it implied he was the luckiest player ever, either, and please, be honest with yourself - compare his situation to some of the other ATGs, did he get the short end of the stick?

Compared to someone like Duncan, I actually would. Playing in an environment where there is stability throughout your entire career is something that very few others, if any have the the privilege of enjoying. Duncan is and was great for Pop, but the leadership goes both ways.

Kobe's ego clashed with Shaq's ego, that much is clear.

What you're saying with the Lakers getting it right is that Kobe didn't get it right, correct?

Duncan's my favorite player ever, and until a few years ago I thought he deserved the lion's share of the credit because being who he is allowed Pop to build that sort of team around him.

While I still place his 2003 carry job very highly, I've since lowered my view on it because I understand how lesser talents on paper can help cover for each other on a game-to-game basis (I think that was tsherkin's breakdown).

And then of course we all know what happened; to quote Doc MJ:

It's pretty simple.

-In the NBA you're only a serious contender if you have a top tier superstar except in very rare circumstances.
-The Spurs haven't had one for 7 years.
-They continue to have an elite record and almost won the title last year.
-Nobody does this in the NBA.

Therefore: Pop is not a "problem". For crying out loud. Your collection of talent should have made you irrelevant years ago, and being a small market probably irrelevant until you got another superstar in the lottery 15 years from now. You aren't because Pop & his crew have done a stellar job building schemes and fitting minor talents into place. Enjoy what you have.

I especially liked his Pop vote in the 2014 RPOY because of the Spurs winning the title in stunning fashion.

And again, you're being disingenuous by saying I'm implying Kobe DIDN'T get it right. I mean, I just posted about the never-ending cycle around Kobe - I thought that would've implied that I'm not getting into any of the usual back-and-forth about him, I'm just attempting to understand why it usually happens. I mean, really, pulling out T-Mac and Vince?

[MacGill]

I was simply replying to the notion that UBF himself represents those who voted for Kobe as proposterous, as if we were discounting his negatives, which I can speak for myself I certainly haven't.

I'm trying to understand why my name keeps getting thrown around, when I've had good discussions with posters about the pluses/minuses of Kobe, Bird, KG in this thread.

Leave me out of the "Fan" battles. My hope is that people realize that this is just a freakin message board thread, and that these rankings are just for discussion. It's not that serious guys.

A lot of posters here associate you with that label. I hope you understand that I'm not the one dragging you into 'fan' battles, that would be MacGill.

Either way, let's continue with the topic at hand.

Dude, stop throwing my name around here. You were the one who quoted me. I am open to make any sort of post on the discussion as I feel. Why this has become a huge deal is confusing. Ardee had no problem respectfully responding and why would anyone else be any different? I have had many a discussion with AUB fan around this very topic. Respectfully, leave me name out of accusations that I am not committing.