RealGM Top 100 List #11

E-Balla · Post #21 » by **E-Balla** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:21 am

I will be voting Kobe Bryant. With Bird out of the way his top competition to me are Oscar, KG, the Malones, Dr. J, and Jerry West (possibly Dirk).

Oscar loses in longevity and I'm not so convinced that he's better than Kobe prime for prime.

KG and Kobe both played at the same times and there was no doubt as to who was better during their primes (Kobe) and looking back at their primes I don't see anything that makes me think differently on that. Same for Dirk.

Karl Malone suffers because I flat out think Kobe was noticeably better.

Moses Malone suffers for the same reason but to a lesser degree.

Dr. J has too many down years and I saw the reasoning mainly being two things; bad fit (ok but if Dr. J will allow a lesser player to take all his possessions I have an issue with him), and injury (makes sense but he loses points for it just like Duncan's tendinitis in 07).

Jerry West isn't better than Kobe IMO and I can't see him over many of these guys so I definetly can't see him over Kobe.

Note on project as a whole:
Decent top 10 but I'm seeing a lot of people bringing up guys who have no business being discussed because other guys they think have no being being discussed are getting votes. For example David Robinson has been brought up at least 10 spots early (personally I don't even have him top 25). Who cares if you don't like KG or think he's better than David Robinson? Compare people to other guys contesting the spot not someone random who might be an easier comparison.

The Infamous1 · Post #22 » by **The Infamous1** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:24 am

GC Pantalones wrote:I will be voting Kobe Bryant. With Bird out of the way his top competition to me are Oscar, KG, the Malones, Dr. J, and Jerry West (possibly Dirk).

Oscar loses in longevity and I'm not so convinced that he's better than Kobe prime for prime.

KG and Kobe both played at the same times and there was no doubt as to who was better during their primes (Kobe) and looking back at their primes I don't see anything that makes me think differently on that. Same for Dirk.

Karl Malone suffers because I flat out think Kobe was noticeably better.

Moses Malone suffers for the same reason but to a lesser degree.

Dr. J has too many down years and I saw the reasoning mainly being two things; bad fit (ok but if Dr. J will allow a lesser player to take all his possessions I have an issue with him), and injury (makes sense but he loses points for it just like Duncan's tendinitis in 07).

Jerry West isn't better than Kobe IMO and I can't see him over many of these guys so I definetly can't see him over Kobe.

Note on project as a whole:
Decent top 10 but I'm seeing a lot of people bringing up guys who have no business being discussed because other guys they think have no being being discussed are getting votes. For example David Robinson has been brought up at least 10 spots early (personally I don't even have him top 25). Who cares if you don't like KG or think he's better than David Robinson? Compare people to other guys contesting the spot not someone random who might be an easier comparison.

No Drob in the top 25?

Post #23 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:26 am

Vote: Kevin Garnett

I'll talk a little about him before talking about some of the other guys requested.

KG and KB

Up until now I've avoided contrasting KG with Kobe because I could. It's interesting. To me Kobe has always been the most polarizing guy on the boards, but in this project clearly it's been KG so far, which isn't a surprise to me given that I'm one of the rabble rousers however it's still an interesting shift.

This incidentally means imho the "Kobe posters" in this project are being quite smart. To some degree this means that the more zealous folk just aren't in the project, and what we have are the more reasonable people. Probably also for some they realize that it's often pointless to make a case for a guy before the crowd seems open to it.

And then there are folks like myself who now could be called zealots without us really being able to say much in protest. :oops:

Getting to the actual comparison here, if you've followed my arguments before, I think it's pretty clear to you why I rank KG higher even if you don't agree with me.

Kobe's clearly the better offensive player, KG's the better defensive player...then what? This is a common thing you'll see me say, and honestly I wonder what people think. I'm dead serious about it: I have a very tough time judging who the more impactful player is when you have to add up the two different sides of the ball...and I think I'm far from alone.

I think if you've seen my posts you might see them in two categories: very qualitative or very quantitative. I can go on and on about the joys of watching Larry Bird, and to me that's maybe the more central thing to geeking out on basketball, but that doesn't really tell me where he should be ranked. When it comes to the nitty gritty rankings, I tend to rely more on the numbers. The rankings are not the most important thing per se, but this is a ranked list, so, gotta go there.

And in general, if you look at any attempt to wrap up the whole box score together, Garnett comes out at least even with Kobe. And of course, +/- sees a big edge for Garnett. So to me right there, seems pretty natural to rank Garnett higher.

I also like how flexible Garnett's game is, and his tendency to be a more inspirational oratory influence, and I'll admit I get frustrated at what I see as Kobe's tendency to just not trust his teammates and as a result shoot unnecessary tough shots while leaving teammates hesitant.

I also think that while I wouldn't call Kobe supporters "ring counters" because I think their faith in Kobe comes from an appreciation for how he plays first and foremost, however in general it's very clear that Kobe's narrative took on a huge shift as a result of the titles he won. If Kobe doesn't play with Shaq good chance he only has 2 rings. Meanwhile if Garnett played with the Boston crew sooner he probably has at least that many rings. So for anyone who finds it "weird" to favor Garnett based on how they've typically heard the two, I think they should keep that in mind.

Oscar and Jerry

I really think these guys are very, very solid. I think without question the two best offensive careers until Bird & Magic came along. There's a tendency to see them as '60s guys, but we saw what they're post-peak selves looked like in the '70s, and it's just clear that the guys were more absolute standout even at that age among the next generation.

It's worth noting that both were pretty efficient even by modern standards in an era where many were not. I don't think it makes sense to look at this in terms of physical talent of the era so much as whether the player has an internal "compass". While we make a big deal out of a few % difference in TS, and I'm not saying we're wrong to do so, it's not at all easy for your average person to tally those differences up in their head as they play. Oscar & West probably didn't do it either so much as they developed a good intuitive function in their mind of what made things more likely to work, and then they did it.

I tend to knock Oscar down essentially by tiebreak relative to Magic, and depending on my mood Nash, because the actual team offensive efficacy back then is just too weak to account for based on things like rule changes and officiating norms, but still, when a guy is leading the best offenses around while putting up huge individual numbers and displaying a professor's understanding of the game, he's the real deal. Oscar is absolutely one of the greatest offensive players of all-time...and he really doesn't have a longevity issue like Magic does. I can really see a case for voting for him above Magic here.

But then there's Jerry West, who also shows indications that he's the same way. First there's the individual efficiency, but then there's the matter that he seemed to be able to take to "smart" offense naturally. When the Princeton offense came to Los Angeles before Wilt came and blew it up, West seemed to master it immediately and take his impact to a new level.

And don't forget his defense. With his drive and bizarrely outsized wingspan the stories about his blocks and steal numbers actually make a lot of sense, and the little bit of steals data we have lines up with that too.

West at times seems to me like Dwyane Wade except a bit smaller and less explosive (though still clearly explosive) while being considerably smarter, a drastically better shooter, and he didn't fall apart with age, he was arguably at his best when the next decade ('70s) came around. At this point I'd lean toward ranking him ahead of Oscar.

Dirk

I've only seen Dirk talked about to say either 1) Bird was like him but better, or 2) why isn't Dirk being talked about?

Here's something I'll say about him: While he could never have played Larry Bird's role, were I to have Bird as a player now...I might train him to do Dirk's role rather than Bird's off-ball stuff. Again Bird is extremely impressive with the approach he had, but watching Dallas in 2011 it was just such a perfect machine calibrated around what Dirk could give you on-ball, and it sure made me think Bird would be devastating in the role.

But, would he actually be more devastating than Dirk? I'm truly not sure. That added bit of height Dirk has helps him, and I can't really find fault with Dirk's moves or decision making.

What this amounts to saying is: I don't know if Bird's actual impact peaked higher than Dirk's, and I don't know if it would have even if you optimized your offense around him like Dallas did with Dirk.

Push comes to shove I take Bird, but Dirk was phenomenal, and Dirk has not how quite a lot career as a superstar. I think he has a case soon, even as I see Garnett as definitively the GOAT-ier player.

E-Balla · Post #24 » by **E-Balla** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:30 am

The Infamous1 wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:I will be voting Kobe Bryant. With Bird out of the way his top competition to me are Oscar, KG, the Malones, Dr. J, and Jerry West (possibly Dirk).

Oscar loses in longevity and I'm not so convinced that he's better than Kobe prime for prime.

KG and Kobe both played at the same times and there was no doubt as to who was better during their primes (Kobe) and looking back at their primes I don't see anything that makes me think differently on that. Same for Dirk.

Karl Malone suffers because I flat out think Kobe was noticeably better.

Moses Malone suffers for the same reason but to a lesser degree.

Dr. J has too many down years and I saw the reasoning mainly being two things; bad fit (ok but if Dr. J will allow a lesser player to take all his possessions I have an issue with him), and injury (makes sense but he loses points for it just like Duncan's tendinitis in 07).

Jerry West isn't better than Kobe IMO and I can't see him over many of these guys so I definetly can't see him over Kobe.

Note on project as a whole:
Decent top 10 but I'm seeing a lot of people bringing up guys who have no business being discussed because other guys they think have no being being discussed are getting votes. For example David Robinson has been brought up at least 10 spots early (personally I don't even have him top 25). Who cares if you don't like KG or think he's better than David Robinson? Compare people to other guys contesting the spot not someone random who might be an easier comparison.

No Drob in the top 25?

Yeah. I don't really like his career much compared to most others. He might've actually dropped more on my ATL. Still he got 21st last time but he's been being discussed since Duncan got in almost 100% by people trying to convince us KG isn't top 10.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #25 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:31 am

GC Pantalones wrote:Jerry West isn't better than Kobe IMO and I can't see him over many of these guys so I definetly can't see him over Kobe.

Why do you think Kobe was better then West?

These are their Prime playoff stats over their best 11 years.
West : 29 / 6apg on 47%FG / 56%TS
Kobe : 28 / 5apg on 45%FG / 54%TS

West has the statistical edge and his TS% may actually be deflated due to no 3pt shot.
They both have 11 elite years.

West was clearly the better Finals performer by a very wide margin and better in terms of intangibles/personality.

Ring wise Kobe obviously comes out ahead but West played most of his career during the Russell era where really nobody else was winning including guys like Oscar. It took a super stacked team and Wilt at his Peak to dethrone them for a year.

Put him in some years where there isn't a Boston/Bulls dynasty wrecking havoc and give him a solid All-Star or Super-Star big and he probably will have a better chance at winning a couple rings.
He did afterall win a Ring with Grandpa Chamberlain who was only 1 year away from retirement.

I would really like to see some good Kobe VS West discussion.
They are the most similar players we will be voting in over the next few spots.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #26 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:36 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:These are their Prime playoff stats over their best 11 years.
West : 29 / 6apg on 47%FG / 56%TS
Kobe : 28 / 5apg on 45%FG / 54%TS

West has the statistical edge and his TS% may actually be deflated due to no 3pt shot.
They both have 11 elite years.

You have to adjust that for pace though. It would be like comparing Wilt's raw stats to Shaq's, or Oscar's to Lebron's.

E-Balla · Post #27 » by **E-Balla** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:37 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:Jerry West isn't better than Kobe IMO and I can't see him over many of these guys so I definetly can't see him over Kobe.

Why do you think Kobe was better then West?

These are their Prime playoff stats over their best 11 years.
West : 29 / 6apg on 47%FG / 56%TS
Kobe : 28 / 5apg on 45%FG / 54%TS

West has the statistical edge and his TS% may actually be deflated due to no 3pt shot.
They both have 11 elite years.

West was clearly the better Finals performer by a very wide margin and better in terms of intangibles/personality.

Ring wise Kobe obviously comes out ahead but West played most of his career during the Russell era where really nobody else was winning including guys like Oscar. It took a super stacked team and Wilt at his Peak to dethrone them for a year.

Put him in some years where there isn't a Boston/Bulls dynasty wrecking havoc and give him a solid All-Star or Super-Star big and he probably will have a better chance at winning a couple rings.
He did afterall win a Ring with Grandpa Chamberlain who was only 1 year away from retirement.

I would really like to see some good Kobe VS West discussion.
They are the most similar players we will be voting in over the next few spots.

Well Kobe is someone who I think is very underrated by raw numbers. It's hard to think of another player who can have 35 points on 34 shots and still be the reason his team won even with his team scoring 60 points on 50 shots. He's like the super version of all those perimeter isolating stars.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #28 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:44 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
RayBan-Sematra wrote:These are their Prime playoff stats over their best 11 years.
West : 29 / 6apg on 47%FG / 56%TS
Kobe : 28 / 5apg on 45%FG / 54%TS

West has the statistical edge and his TS% may actually be deflated due to no 3pt shot.
They both have 11 elite years.

You have to adjust that for pace though. It would be like comparing Wilt's raw stats to Shaq's, or Oscar's to Lebron's.

Not sure there is any need for major adjustments here.
West was capable of 40ppg playoff series against elite defenses so I am sure he'd have no problem maintaining his volume in todays era.

His APG may be slightly inflated but his AST%'s later in his career when he switched more to a PG role were much higher then any of Kobe's.
Plus goal keepers were more stingy when it came to giving out assists back then which partially cancels out the pace advantage.
I am sure he'd still be a 5+apg guy today regardless of role.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #29 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:51 am

GC Pantalones wrote:Well Kobe is someone who I think is very underrated by raw numbers.

I tend to think the opposite due to his individualistic nature which causes him to play outside the flow of the team offense more frequently then other ATG's.

It's hard to think of another player who can have 35 points on 34 shots and still be the reason his team won even with his team scoring 60 points on 50 shots.

I think his offensive inefficiency does hurt his team which is why in years like 00, 02 and 10 his teams struggled to win it all and had some extremely close scrapes.
In outlier years like 2001/2009 when he was pretty efficient from start to finish the teams he played on won very confidently without those close scrapes.

He may get the win at times even when he is inefficient due to his team stepping up or luck [G7 2010] but I don't think he has some special intangibles which cancel out the negative effects of his inefficient shooting.

Not to say Kobe doesn't have any value when his shooting isn't on.
He can still play defense, create for others and open up the court for others by simply being perceived as a great threat but him shooting poorly does not enhance any of those abilities. It is purely a negative thing.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #30 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:03 am

Vote #11: Kobe

-Arguably the most explosive scorer in history.
-Amazing consistency. 13 years of big volume scoring at 55%+ TS. Team ORtg consistently strong even during the Smush years. Top 5 MVP finishes in eleven different seasons.
-Elite 2-way player
-Playoff success rate speaks for itself. Had two separate teams win multiple titles. Went to 3 straight Finals on those teams too. 20-1 playoff record with SRS advantage.

06-10 Peak:
30/6/5 on 56.5% TS in the regular season
30/6/5 on 57.0% TS in the playoffs
11-3 playoff record in tough Western Conference. Facing teams averaging 5.02 SRS

Arguably the GOAT shot creator
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jgar3X0A0s[/youtube]

One of the Top passing Non-PGs ever.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ye3D2nagUs[/youtube]

One of the best perimeter defenders of his era
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG7Mj5Mifqs[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk9SRxMQs1k[/youtube]

DannyNoonan1221 · Post #31 » by **DannyNoonan1221** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:17 am

GC Pantalones wrote:KG and Kobe both played at the same times and there was no doubt as to who was better during their primes (Kobe) and looking back at their primes I don't see anything that makes me think differently on that. Same for Dirk.

Karl Malone suffers because I flat out think Kobe was noticeably better.

Moses Malone suffers for the same reason but to a lesser degree.

Jerry West isn't better than Kobe IMO and I can't see him over many of these guys so I definetly can't see him over Kobe.

I cut out some of your post to bring the length down and left the few comments that I have a really hard time with. Leaving aside the fact that I don't agree, you are just making general statements about who you think is better without any real support.

I personally will rank Kobe over KG but would NEVER say "there was no doubt as to who the better was during their primes". To me, that is the thinking in general that makes most people believe Kobe is top 5 all time and compares to Jordan.

Why do you "flat out think kobe was noticeably better"? I personally don't think either was head and shoulders above the other- Kobe played his whole career in LA, won three in a row with PJ and Shaq on his side, while Malone played in Utah and lost two straight finals to Jordan/Pippen Bulls. Media is going to eat one of those scenarios up and **** on the other one…

and your moses and west 'arguments' are more of the same. Why can't you see West over a lot of these guys? I forget who but someone just posted a great write up of Moses' domination, especially after the All-Star game when Riley played Kareem over him and the West lost…

And on a side note, the Offensive rebounding dominance of Moses really strengthens his chance for this spot in my mind. Whether you've ever played the game or are an avid watcher, offensive rebounds are worth a hell of a lot more. You obviously get the extra possession, but not only is it a simple and clear sign of hard work most of the time that helps gain momentum, it is also a basketball sin to give up offensive rebounds and works double- pumps up your teammates and pisses the opposing players/coach off. I wish there was a way to track how often an offensive rebound either kills the opposing teams momentum or elevates the offense's momentum.

DannyNoonan1221 · Post #32 » by **DannyNoonan1221** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:21 am

and just to be clear/explain some of that, I am very big on momentum. Basketball (and most sports in general) are all about momentum swings- who can handle one team's momentum swing and get the momentum back in their favor. The Spurs/Heat finals this past June was a perfect example- even when the Spurs were up by 20 points in the first half, everyone in the building knew the heat would make a run. It was a matter of whether or not the Spurs could handle the run by either swinging momentum back in their favor or forcing Miami to tire out during their run.

Post #33 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:29 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Dirk

I've only seen Dirk talked about to say either 1) Bird was like him but better, or 2) why isn't Dirk being talked about?

I think its fair to simply say no one thought Dirk was worthy of being in the top 10 so no one bothered making Dirk-related posts. If I'm remembering correctly he hasn't received a single vote yet.

And I mentioned him once or twice in relation to KG just because I personally find it hard to see a meaningful gap between the 2 player to the degree you and others do. So I think if we talk KG we should talk Dirk If you had KG in the top 3, I think? and Dirk somewhere outside of 11 that's a big gap and so your point #2 looms large and you wouldn't see the need. I think more and more posters are starting to see Dirk compare more favorably to KG tho I think still clearly behind him in most eyes.

I actually made a couple of small Dirk posts in teh #10 thread not to make a case for him because I don't think he deserved it, but simply to start getting him into the conversation. If we don't talk about him at all for a dozen threads and then those of us who view him higher than some others who have been getting a lot of traction try and bring him up its naturally going to be harder to get people to be open to Dirk when comparing him to people like KG who have been in the conversation almost from the beginning.

I will continue to sprinkle in some more posts about Dirk that aren't an attempt to persuade people to vote for him but more to just give some more perspective on his career that I think frequently gets lost because we have a few key Dirk talking points and we never go much further than that. I think I can add some other things to at least think about especially as it relates to the other players of his era. I hope to do the same with Dallas-era Nash another kind of lost zone that deserves a longer look imo.

But as a big Dirk guy I'm still convinced there are players who deserve to be ranked higher so I won't be going too in depth on him yet because I don't want to be repeating a bunch of posts for 3 or 4 or 5 more threads when he doesnt get voted in.

Post #34 » by **tsherkin** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:31 am

In deference to Kobe, people should revisit his TS% relative to league average from 01-10; the idea that he was generally inefficient is wrong. His issue has always been his shot selection and willingness to iso versus play the team game, which is defensively exploitable and has come up in the playoffs at inopportune times before. He's actually been a +2-3 TS% player for most of his career, which is very good. Not Jordan-esque, but still better than guys like McGrady and Melo and Vince, generally speaking.

E-Balla · Post #35 » by **E-Balla** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:34 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:Well Kobe is someone who I think is very underrated by raw numbers.

I tend to think the opposite due to his individualistic nature which causes him to play outside the flow of the team offense more frequently then other ATG's.

It's hard to think of another player who can have 35 points on 34 shots and still be the reason his team won even with his team scoring 60 points on 50 shots.

I think his offensive inefficiency does hurt his team which is why in years like 00, 02 and 10 his teams struggled to win it all and had some extremely close scrapes.
In outlier years like 2001/2009 when he was pretty efficient from start to finish the teams he played on won very confidently without those close scrapes.

He may get the win at times even when he is inefficient due to his team stepping up or luck [G7 2010] but I don't think he has some special intangibles which cancel out the negative effects of his inefficient shooting.

Not to say Kobe doesn't have any value when his shooting isn't on.
He can still play defense, create for others and open up the court for others by simply being perceived as a great threat but him shooting poorly does not enhance any of those abilities. It is purely a negative thing.

There's nothing intangible about it. Taking difficult shots will lower your efficiency but help your team. For the first half of the season Portland looked like the best offense ever and they were led by a PF scoring 24 a game on 52 TS. Taking the bad shots can help your team and Kobe (out of all the players who did that primarily) was the king of that in his time.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #36 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:35 am

Just to show consistency/longevity among the top players left.....

Top 5 MVP Seasons
Kobe - 11
Mailman - 9
Oscar - 9
Dr. J - 8
West - 8
Moses - 5
DRob - 5
KG - 5
Dirk - 3

All-NBA 1st teams
Kobe - 11
Mailman - 11
West - 10
Oscar - 9
Dr. J - 9
Moses - 4
DRob - 4
KG - 4
Dirk - 4

MVP Shares
Mailman - 4.296
Kobe - 4.206
DRob- 3.123
Moses - 2.873
Dr. J - 2.807(Don't have ABA MVP shares, so estimated it on a .800 basis)
KG - 2.753
Oscar - 2.479
West - 2.090
Drik - 1.810

MVP Shares per near-prime Seasons
00-13 Kobe - 0.300
87-01 Mailman - 0.286
90-01 DRob - 0.260
74-85 Dr. J - 0.234 (estimate)
61-71 Oscar - 0.225
77-89 Moses - 0.221
99-13 KG - 0.183
61-73 West - 0.161
02-14 Dirk - 0.139

Kobe has the best consistency, but the Mailman's looking real good. Dr. J's near Mailman, though his longevity hurts him. DRob's longevity may be shorter too, but he was pretty high in his prime years.

Jim Naismith · Post #37 » by **Jim Naismith** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:46 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:Some thoughts on Moses.

Scoring wise he isn't bad statistically.
Over his Prime you could expect around 20-25ppg usually on good efficiency.
He wasn't usually a very efficient a scorer from the field but he was great at getting to the line and shot a very good percentage (especially for a C). He also obviously got many baskets off of offensive rebounds.

"20-25 ppg over his prime" sells Moses short.

During his 5-year peak (with 3 MVPs), Moses Malone averaged 26.8 PPG, 15.4 RPG.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #38 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:46 am

GC Pantalones wrote:There's nothing intangible about it. Taking difficult shots will lower your efficiency but help your team. For the first half of the season Portland looked like the best offense ever and they were led by a PF scoring 24 a game on 52 TS. Taking the bad shots can help your team and Kobe (out of all the players who did that primarily) was the king of that in his time.

I don't really follow.
What makes a long missed jumper by Kobe more valuable then a long missed jumper by Derek Fisher?
How is taking and missing difficult shots "helping your team"?

I guess you believe in the Kobe assist?
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/871 ... obe-assist

I would need some really good evidence and proof that Kobe missing shots is more valuable then other stars missing shots (or just compared to other star SG's like a Jerry West or something) due to something unique about him before I could seriously consider giving him extra credit for it.

Post #39 » by **tsherkin** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:50 am

GC Pantalones wrote:
RayBan-Sematra wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:Well Kobe is someone who I think is very underrated by raw numbers.

I tend to think the opposite due to his individualistic nature which causes him to play outside the flow of the team offense more frequently then other ATG's.

It's hard to think of another player who can have 35 points on 34 shots and still be the reason his team won even with his team scoring 60 points on 50 shots.

I think his offensive inefficiency does hurt his team which is why in years like 00, 02 and 10 his teams struggled to win it all and had some extremely close scrapes.
In outlier years like 2001/2009 when he was pretty efficient from start to finish the teams he played on won very confidently without those close scrapes.

He may get the win at times even when he is inefficient due to his team stepping up or luck [G7 2010] but I don't think he has some special intangibles which cancel out the negative effects of his inefficient shooting.

Not to say Kobe doesn't have any value when his shooting isn't on.
He can still play defense, create for others and open up the court for others by simply being perceived as a great threat but him shooting poorly does not enhance any of those abilities. It is purely a negative thing.

There's nothing intangible about it. Taking difficult shots will lower your efficiency but help your team. For the first half of the season Portland looked like the best offense ever and they were led by a PF scoring 24 a game on 52 TS. Taking the bad shots can help your team and Kobe (out of all the players who did that primarily) was the king of that in his time.

Part of that was epic 3pt shootinf and Aldridge being a stunningly low-turnover guy against significant usage. Inefficiency inyour scorers is tolerable on crap offenses (someone has to shoot), but ORTG considers offensive rebounding and turnover percentage as well. It's not as simple as "he was inefficient, so it's Ok."

Portland topped the league in FT%, and were 4th, 3rd and 10th in 3PM, 3PA and 3P% respectively. 3rd in TOV and ORB%, too. That all matters a great deal to team offensive efficacy.

E-Balla · Post #40 » by **E-Balla** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:53 am

DannyNoonan1221 wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:KG and Kobe both played at the same times and there was no doubt as to who was better during their primes (Kobe) and looking back at their primes I don't see anything that makes me think differently on that. Same for Dirk.

Karl Malone suffers because I flat out think Kobe was noticeably better.

Moses Malone suffers for the same reason but to a lesser degree.

Jerry West isn't better than Kobe IMO and I can't see him over many of these guys so I definetly can't see him over Kobe.

I cut out some of your post to bring the length down and left the few comments that I have a really hard time with. Leaving aside the fact that I don't agree, you are just making general statements about who you think is better without any real support.

I personally will rank Kobe over KG but would NEVER say "there was no doubt as to who the better was during their primes". To me, that is the thinking in general that makes most people believe Kobe is top 5 all time and compares to Jordan.

General consensus, my thinking, and even the RPOY project puts Kobe over KG from 2001-2010. I mean a few thought KG was better at the time but the most thought Kobe was better.

Why do you "flat out think kobe was noticeably better"? I personally don't think either was head and shoulders above the other- Kobe played his whole career in LA, won three in a row with PJ and Shaq on his side, while Malone played in Utah and lost two straight finals to Jordan/Pippen Bulls. Media is going to eat one of those scenarios up and **** on the other one…

The difference doesn't have to be much for it to be clear. 2 is clearly over 3 but on a infinite scale its a small difference - but a distance nonetheless.

and your moses and west 'arguments' are more of the same. Why can't you see West over a lot of these guys? I forget who but someone just posted a great write up of Moses' domination, especially after the All-Star game when Riley played Kareem over him and the West lost…

With West he's great but he's not a Kobe. It was a weaker era and his team was stacked. With Moses I see his game, what he accomplished, etc. and come out impressed but his impact doesn't seem to be so amazing when looking at how teams did without him and with him outside of 83.